The Flood Tribunal will take up to 15 years - Internal Review

Cork

The Flood Tribunal will take up to 15 years to complete its investigations into claims of planning corruption, an internal review has concluded.

Is it not about time we found better methods to investigating cuppoption?

I think another 15 years of dragged out tribunerals with their associated costs is absurd.

Yes, things need investigation.

I think we need Senate hearings like the US or even bring Judge Judy over from the US to get to the bottom of this.

But another 15 years?

The Irish taxpayer does not need dragged out metods of investigation. In the year 2018 - investigating events that are 40 or 50 years old is crazy.

But don't get me wrong - other methods of investigation should be devised.

Sunday Business Post Article

sceptre

15 years does sound more than a bit nutty. The problem with Flood is that every time it seems near conclusion (even following the modular system it's using), another little head pops up with a fresh set of improprieties/cons/thefts. Even the allegations about Chorus caught me somewhat by surprise. I'd rather see every crooked councillor caught and hung out to dry tbh as I take a very dim view of breaches of trust. If it takes a few more years to do that, that's fine. If every crooked councillor and developer in this country assumes they'll be caught, we'll have far fewer crooked councillors and developers.

McDowell's proposals may go some way to solving the problem of spiralling costs - it's very important that these investigations be made in public though as justice needs to be seen to be done.

bonkey

Originally posted by sceptre
as justice needs to be seen to be done.

How do tribunals achieve this? They have no jurisdiction to prosecute, nor are their findings admissable in a court of law. If anything, ther Tribunal is a handy way to find out who did what, while virtually ensuring that justice will not be done.

jc

Cork

Originally posted by sceptre


it's very important that these investigations be made in public though as justice needs to be seen to be done.

While I agree 100% with your point.

These tribunerals are not criminal investigations so that any criminal investigation will probably have to wait untill the final tribuneral report is published.

These tribunerals are costing us many €s. They have merit - don't get me wrong.

They are too cumbersome & slow.

I think that they need a radical over haul. We need a lean mean fighting machine to investage all frauds and potential tax ivasion in this country.

ykt0di9url7bc3

Originally posted by bonkey
anything, ther Tribunal is a handy way to find out who did what, while virtually ensuring that justice will not be done.

doh...

Why do you think all the politicians are involved in these Tribunals?

A good public flogging and interogation thru torture would be more cost effective

vorbis

as far as I can remember, these tribunals have paid for themselves torugh the tax penalties paid as a result of the findings.

bonkey

Originally posted by vorbis
as far as I can remember, these tribunals have paid for themselves torugh the tax penalties paid as a result of the findings.

Most of them have paid for themselves, yes, but not in penalties, but rather in accruing the monies that should have been paid in the first place.

How many people would voluntarily pay a single cent in tax again if the only thing that could happen is that when caught they'd be asked to pay what was found to be owed? And yet this is what is classed as a "successful" tribunal - that the collection of monies found to be owed paid for the tribunal.


Thats justice? That if you get caught you get nicely asked to hand over the tax you should have paid in the first place?


jc

vorbis

I agree with you Bonkey but to be fair to the revenue commissioners, you have to pay pretty stiff fines (i.e upwards of 50% of money hidden) as well.

Cork

Originally posted by vorbis
I agree with you Bonkey but to be fair to the revenue commissioners, you have to pay pretty stiff fines (i.e upwards of 50% of money hidden) as well.

While I agree that the tribunerals are indeed doing some good. I think that they are too slow, too cumbersome & too bloated. There needs to be effective alternatives.

The Internal Audit Departments of our Revenue service is small - auditing a tiny % of filed tax returns.

This needs to be beefed up radically.

The black ecomony is still out there. Resources should be put into more recent tax evasion while at the same time past corruption needs to be investigateed.

But another 15 years of tribuneral reports from Dublin Castle is a joke.

mike65

I used to think tribunals were a good idea but not so now...there's a whole generation of solicitors and laywers who have become very rich men in a few years
and millions more still be to made....

Mike.

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by Cork

I think another 15 years of dragged out tribunerals with their associated costs is absurd.

The Flood tribunal has and will continue to pay for itself, and while we may not see justice in the criminal sense we are blowing the whistle on a lot of politicians .. . . .

If anything, ther Tribunal is a handy way to find out who did what, while virtually ensuring that justice will not be done.

I'm not sure on what basis you can make this assertion. The flood tribunals mission is one of fact-finding. Reports will be handed over to the DPP if it is deemed that a prosecution should be appropriate. How can this ensure that justice will not be done ? ?

bonkey

Originally posted by hallelujajordan
while we may not see justice in the criminal sense we are blowing the whistle on a lot of politicians .. . . .

So what? The public is still willing to re-elect those who are still actively involved in politics.

Those who arent, couldnt care less if the whistle is blown on them.

Its a joke. It may not be costing the taxpayer money directly, but all that does is make it a free or revenue-generating joke.

Of course, the economic impact seems to be all anyone is worried about these days. Forget trying to do the right thing, or see justice be done......just make sure that you choose the least unprofitable / most profitable path.

jc

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by bonkey
So what? The public is still willing to re-elect those who are still actively involved in politics.

jc

That's called democracy. . .

Its a joke. It may not be costing the taxpayer money directly, but all that does is make it a free or revenue-generating joke.

I don't agree. . . . If nothing else, it will enforce to politicians that higher standards are required in public office. . . . and if you really believe that politicians don't care you have to ask yourself why Liam Lawlor was prepared to go in and out of jail rather than provide the necessary disclosure . . .

. How can this ensure that justice will not be done ? ?

You still haven't answered this important question. Your earlier post makes, in my view a completely invalid asserttion that tribunals prevent justice from being done. Such statements should be supported . ..

bonkey

Originally posted by hallelujajordan

You still haven't answered this important question. Your earlier post makes, in my view a completely invalid asserttion that tribunals prevent justice from being done. Such statements should be supported . ..

While the tribunal is ongoing, no criminal charges will be brought. We can say this with relative certainty, as there has been enough evidence of criminal wrongdoing in certain areas to date, and no invbestigation has been launched....pending the outcome of the tribunal.

Now, straight away, that makes no sense. The tribunal cannot be used as evidence in the investigation, so why should criminal charges await its outcome? And yet, thats what we are seeing happening.

So anyway....in 15 years time, when this tribunal closes, we will then have the choice of starting all over again to try and see justice done.

Not only that, but if someone refuses to corroborate the evidence they provided to the tribunal there is nothing which can be done...nothing from the tribunal is admissable as evidence.

I cannot state with 100% certainty that no criminal investigations will take place at that point, but I strongly doubt it.

The tribunal is a way to have something looked at without the threat of resultant prosecution.

I am unaware of a single prosecution ever resulting from the findings of a tribunal...and yet tribunals have found people guilty of wrongdoing in the past.

So unless I'm mistaken, the proof of the pudding is in the eating : Tribunals have never led to prosecution, even after finding people guiltly of criminal wrongdoing. Can anyone explain this to me other than by saying that the tribunal is used as an alternative to a proper criminal investigation and subsequent prosecution?

ask yourself why Liam Lawlor was prepared to go in and out of jail rather than provide the necessary disclosure

I have already agreed that the tribunals are getting some of what they are owed. Perhaps Lawlor didnt want to pay the tax bill and was hoping to avoid being "proven" to be liable. Perhaps he didnt have the cash. Perhaps there's something or someone bigger involved, and he's trying to avoid that being found.

Answer me this : has Lawlor finally been co-operative with the tribunal? If not, is he still in jail for refusing to co-operate? If not, why not.

I believe that tribunals are used as an alternative to prosecution. Thus, it is arbitrarily giving one small section of the populace special consideration and protection when it comes to having broken the law. That is preventing justice from taking place....unless you believe that justice should be different for different people and that our laws do not apply to our lawmakers as equally as to the rest of us.

I dont believe that, and do not accept that politicians should be treated any differently for breaking the law. The tribunal system ensures that they are treated differently.



jc