SARS and the Government....

mike65

Is this government fit to hold office? In the last week
its true shortcommings are plain to see, forget graft and corruption forget public sector cost overruns, can they protect the public? The answer at this point must be no.

So far various depts (particularly health) have shown themselves to be somewhere between complacent and incompetent. The example of the Chinese woman and the taxi driver who took her to Hospital is incredible.
The woman is checked for symptoms, considered a possible and case sent home with no supervision. The taxi driver is told not to worry then she is reclassified as proberble and the taxi driver is told to put himself in isolation (at home) for as long as it takes. The airports have no screening of any sort for incomers, the information they are giving out is minimal and in one language only.

The thing is, if ppl arrived here with foot and mouth
the whole country would have been mobilised by now...

Mike.

Sparks

mike,
Not to poke too much mirth at you, but how come it took you till now to spot this?

mike65

Sparks I do know they're a bunch of *&^%! but when public health is involved you kinda hope they'll rise to the occasion...I also find it interesting only you replied and only to poke fun at me ! Anyone would think a deadly virus and government incompetance were not important.

Mike.

Cork

So far various depts (particularly health) have shown themselves to be somewhere between complacent and incompetent.

While at the same time the media are getting wall to wall coverage out of this topic.

Some media outlets are doing vox pops that allow people to compare the SARS crisis to that of foot & month.

This is cheaply whiping up sentiment. Are we to stop anybody entering the country? Are we to confire people to their houses?

There has been so much scare mongering by a lot of of media. It is the type of story the media loves. It is cheap fodder for newspapers, radio & TV.

There was a good report on yesterday's Morning Ireland that traced repiciants of SARS other than this the media gone over board.

bonkey

Originally posted by mike65
The example of the Chinese woman and the taxi driver who took her to Hospital is incredible.
The woman is checked for symptoms, considered a possible and case sent home with no supervision.

Interestingly, in interviews I've seen with some Asian doctors commenting on the disease, they say that this is the only realistic way of treating the disease. While its uncomfortable and painful, the vast majority of people do not require hospitalisation and recover on their own. Isolation and basic care (as with a flu) are all that are really needed for most people.

Thus, the more considered approach is to send every case home, with instructions for isolation, and keep what hospital space you have for those who do not appear to be coping, and who actually do need the medical attention.

So maybe this is ok. Maybe not. Either way, this has SFA to do with the government. At best, it could be used to condemn the health service, and ultimately the health minister, but it is not for some politician to tell the Health Service how to deal with a Health issue.

The airports have no screening of any sort for incomers, the information they are giving out is minimal and in one language only.

No offence, but exactly what type of screening are you talking here? The "temp sensors" which detect fever? They're about the only screening I've heard of which anyone has been able to implement for this.

How would we work them though?

Should we deny entry to anyone who has gotten off a plane and who has a body temp over 96.8? And what do we do with them then?

Do we hold them indefinitely until we determine what they are sick of, reimbursing them for any loss incurred from the interrment if and when it turns out they dont have SARS? What do we do if they do have SARS? Quarantine them? What if they're a diplomat?

Or maybe we should find another jet to fly them home on. But surely we can't do that either...we'd only increase the risk of contagion by putting these people on another plane? Or is it only contagion in Ireland we care about? It would be okay to put them on anything outbound, because that would be someone elses problem.

As for the "one language" thing. If you're coming in to Ireland from a non-EU nation, you will need to fill out a form which is available in English. You will need to talk to passport control - who typically speak English. You then get to travel around a country where there is...you guessed it...pretty much only English spoken.

So I dont see any significant problem in handing out information on an issue that is known about worldwide in the one language thats actually used widely in Ireland...although it would have been nice to see it in Irish too. What would you rather they do? Print up the information in every language in the world just to be sure they dont miss anyone?

The thing is, if ppl arrived here with foot and mouth
the whole country would have been mobilised by now...

Because thats a well-known virus, with identified vectors, where we can easily implement a set of relatively low-tech cheap safeguards which offer a realistic and significant reduction in risk with minimal discomfort and effort on the part of the individual (i.e. each member of the public).

With SARS, we could spend an absolute fortune on implementing some really high-tech stuff which realistically offers very little.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there is something simple and easy to do...but if so shouldnt you be pointing out what it is, rather then just berating our govt for doing "nothing"?

jc

Sparks

Mike,
Well, I did say not too much fun

Bonkey,
It's precisely because of the relative lack of knowlege about SARS that the health service and the government need to be taking more direct action. So far as we know so far, SARS has a 10% mortality rate (latest from the WHO, it's up from 6%) and is spread through close contact, most likely bodily fluids including saliva and sweat along with what most people thought of when I said "bodily fluids". It can survive for an unknown amount of time on an exposed surface (most coronaviruses can, for up to 3 hours in some cases) including coins and notes. It has a ten-day incubation time and has recently mutated so that it affects intestines as well as lungs. It's not airborne (we think), but sneezing can spread it.
Given all that, I'd be damn concerned to learn what it can do and how much we need to worry - and until we know, I'd be isolating any and all cases that show up. Not examining them and then sending them back to a public hostel. Some asian doctors may be following this course of action, but they have far more cases than we've seen so far.

However, the criticisms leveled at the government that I have being paying attention to are not so much "Mr Martin, why haven't you discovered a cure yet" as "Mr Martin, why do we still have a top-heavy mess of a civil-service beaurocracy in the health system, with 11 health boards and far too little inter-departmental communication, resulting in such incidents as the waterford SARS suspect case going unreported to the national centre for disease surveillance for nearly a week, and the earlier case of an elderly man receiving a notice of an available bed for surgery four days after his death?"

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks

Given all that, I'd be damn concerned to learn what it can do and how much we need to worry - and until we know, I'd be isolating any and all cases that show up.

OK - fair stance to take. I wouldnt take it, because if things do get worse, it will involve changing policy and that - in the middle of the crisis the policy is designed to effect - is likely to lead to more hassle than it causes.

Not examining them and then sending them back to a public hostel.

Has it been verified that they weren't examined?

What could they have been examined for? I was of the belief that SARS symptoms are indistinguishable from things such as the common flu, and it is only that they continue to get worse that you can identiy SARS. Maybe I'm wrong.

Some asian doctors may be following this course of action, but they have far more cases than we've seen so far.

But this is the approach that they'be been taking from the start. Again - its to avoid a policy shift. If it is possible that the hospitals will get overloaded, then you put a system in place as early as possible to only admit the really necessary cases, so that hospitals can offer the most effect. Swamping them early with "possibles" is considered counter-productive.

However, the criticisms leveled at the government that I have being paying attention to are not so much "Mr Martin, why haven't you discovered a cure yet" as "Mr Martin, why do we still have a top-heavy mess of a civil-service beaurocracy in the health system, with 11 health boards and far too little inter-departmental communication, resulting in such incidents as the waterford SARS suspect case going unreported to the national centre for disease surveillance for nearly a week, and the earlier case of an elderly man receiving a notice of an available bed for surgery four days after his death?"

Fair enough....but again we're talking about the Health Board and the Minister for Health. This is not something the govt in general should be questioned/criticised/condemned for, but rather the Health Service, and - as a consequence - the Minister specifically.

jc

mike65

Nothing to do with the government, but did anyone else see tonights Channel 4 documentary on SARS? Absolutely facinating and in a small way terrrifying. That footage from the open air market in southern China
explains much. It makes you wonder how there are so many Chinese still alive.

Mike.

Sparks

mike,
Yup, and I'm listening to Q&A right now and they're talking about SARS. Rather scarily dismissive, to my mind.

bonkey,

I wouldnt take it, because if things do get worse, it will involve changing policy and that - in the middle of the crisis the policy is designed to effect - is likely to lead to more hassle than it causes.

I don't know about that - if things get worse, having the suspected cases isolated for the most part doesn't seem to have a major downside to me.

Has it been verified that they weren't examined?

She actually was examined, but was sent home. She did not receive any sars-related tests however.

What could they have been examined for? I was of the belief that SARS symptoms are indistinguishable from things such as the common flu, and it is only that they continue to get worse that you can identiy SARS. Maybe I'm wrong.

As I understand it, blood tests can rule out SARS, but not diagnose it specifically. I had heard an announcement of a genetic test for SARS, but that seems to have been a sky news announcement :rolleyes: But that's why I think they should be isolated - isolation is inconvienent. Death is a lot more annoying.

But this is the approach that they'be been taking from the start.

Yes, but they've had far more patients from the start - not just SARS, but all their patients. Irish doctors have 3 million people to worry about. Asian doctors have rather a lot more. We have the luxury of being able to take more measures than they have the facilities to sustain. (Or at least we should...)

Swamping them early with "possibles" is considered counter-productive.

But sending "possibles" out as a policy risks creating that influx of patients that causes overloading! You would be correct if the disease had a serious toehold in Ireland right now, but it doesn't - we're still at the "stitch in time" phase.

Fair enough....but again we're talking about the Health Board and the Minister for Health. This is not something the govt in general should be questioned/criticised/condemned for, but rather the Health Service, and - as a consequence - the Minister specifically.

While I think that the Minister for Finance has a few questions to answer on this, and the Taoiseach by definition is where the buck stops, I'll agree with you. Mainly because there are more than enough questions to go around.

hallelujajordan

This is nonsense . . . . there is NO SARS in Ireland . . . . there is unlikely to be SARS in Ireland. . . . we are now being told that the disease has peaked in all Asian countries bar China and in Toronto and there are less than 500 people dead. More people die every day from simple diarrohea. . . . or malaria . . . . or TB and we don't really care.

There is an incredible amount of bs in the media about SARS. . . . The reality is that there is no clinically validated diagnostic test for the condition and the coronavirus that many refer to has been identified in less than 60% of cases.

Apart from a single case where a woman was sent home from hospital with a suspected case I think the health service have handled this pretty well. The reality is that that woman wasn't all that sick . .. Had she a proper home to go to she should have been sent home with instructions on how to look after herself and keep the disease contained.

IMO Micheal Martin is taking a lot of stick because of media nonsense and a public gone mad with panic. We now have a national disease surveillance centre, pretty good surveillance of communicable disease and a public health system that will be much better geared up for managing a SARS crisis than either Hong Kong or China were.

If people want to get concerned about communicable disease then get concerned about the increasing number of measles cases resulting from a lack of uptake on measles vaccine or get concerned about the woman in Waterford who we have just infected and killed with legionella . . . . Forget SARS . . . .it will not become an Irish issue.

mike65

Originally posted by hallelujajordan
This is nonsense . . . . there is NO SARS in Ireland . . . . there is unlikely to be SARS in Ireland. . . .. Forget SARS . . . .it will not become an Irish issue.

Glad your so sure, would you have been 3 or 4 weeks ago? The Channel 4 programme showed how in less than 48 hours SARS had gone from southern China to Hong Kong, Vietnam and Toronto. It could have come here just as easily...as there is now a certain level of
awarness and vigilance SARS entering the country is much reduced but I would'nt assume anything yet...

Mike.

Sparks

HJ,
People do die every day from malaria and cholera and TB and AIDS and dysentry and from falling over while putting on their trousers. (I'm not making that last one up). Thing is, this is a new and poorly understood virus, and with new virii comes the possiblity of a serious "superbug". Think of it this way - what if it wasn't SARS but a new, previously unseen and drug-resistant form of TB? (We've seen resistant strains of TB before but I mean a major outbreak). The system for dealing with SARS is the same one we'd have to use for TB, or Legionaires, or any other airborne contagion - and it's being shown to be woefully ill-prepared. The Chinese woman in dublin wasn't reported to doctors for several days, the Waterford case wasn't reported to the NDSC for several days, and the Legionaires case in Waterford apparently wasn't reported either even though that's illegal.
So if the system is this far from perfect, we have a seriously good reason to be worried!
And SARS currently is an irish issue - that's a fair accompli. And Martin is getting lots of stick because for 9 million euro a year, this system just isn't good enough.

mike65

Originally posted by Sparks
And Martin is getting lots of stick because for 9 million euro a year, this system just isn't good enough.

er Billion I hope!

Mike.

GuanYin

Oh god, how many more SARS threads are we going to see....

Ok, I'd like to point out that
A) I work in Public Health
I have no respect or esteem for teh current government.


This SARS things is being blown waaaay out of proportion.
There was a Legionnaires' case in Waterford the other night and I was contacted 8 times by non medical people thinking it was SARS after hearing news reports.

Things to know about SARS:

1. It is fatal in a very low amount of people who are infected.
2. the high majority of these people are very old, very young or have a compromised immune system.
3. The reason the mortality rate is so high to begin with is because these people catch it while in hospital.

It was a doctor who sent the Suspected SARS cases home and they made the bang on right call!

Why? because if you have a disease that has a high mortality rate in sick people do you a) Keep them in a hospital surrounded by sick people thus elevating the chance of the infection spreading and mortality rate rising b) Send them home to be isolated in bed?

The other option is to put them in camps or something... is that what you suggest?

Guys calm down! Theres a greater chance of me going mental from all the SARS crap I keep hearing and killing you as I fire into a crowd with an AK47 than there is of you cathcing SARS in Ireland and dying.

mike65

Originally posted by sykeirl


I'd like to point out that
A) I work in Public Health
I have no respect or esteem for teh current government.

Theres a greater chance of me going mental from all the SARS crap I keep hearing and killing you as I fire into a crowd with an AK47 than there is of you cathcing SARS in Ireland and dying.

...its worse than I feared! :eek:

Mike.

GuanYin

Originally posted by Sparks
HJ,
Legionaires, or any other airborne contagion -

The Legionnaires case here is a water borne strain. I don't believe there is an airbounre strain. In any case, like SARS, its only a risk to the old or ill.

Originally posted by Sparks
the Waterford case wasn't reported to the NDSC for several days, and the Legionaires case in Waterford apparently wasn't reported either even though that's illegal.
So if the system is this far from perfect,
[/B]

Jesus, what rag have you been reading?

Legionaires was reported to NDSC after the bacterium was isolated, grown and identified, which wasn't 5 minutes after they walked in the door but it was as soon as it could be confirmed.
Its not contagious, it infects from a primary source, usually water bourne so there was no risk.

Originally posted by Sparks
we have a seriously good reason to be worried!
And SARS currently is an irish issue - that's a fair accompli. And Martin is getting lots of stick because for 9 million euro a year, this system just isn't good enough. [/B]

SARS is an irish issue?
Is that your medical and scientific opinion?
Can you give me the epidemiological data to support this?
An index case and a pathway of infection to other cases?

Funny, because noone I work with is worried just yet. Aware, yes! But they aren't in the state of panic you seem to be in.

Oh and your right. Martin is a fool, who should not just be fired, but possible contaminated with about 15 diseases and put into an emergency room in a public hospital.

GuanYin

Ya know whats gonna happen?

This is going to turn into a media circus with people panicing on and on and the government will come under pressure, put together some task force which will end up doing nothing because there won't be a problem and then in a few months themoney that went to that will be cut from other sources and then people will actually die.

This is the problem with people who haven't a clue hyping medical issues like this.

Sparks

Mike,
Yes, Billion - fingerpokentrubbles

sykeirl,
Erm, no, as I understand it, the original Legionaires case was airborne. Of course, I may have read a seriously inaccurate set of reports, but as I understand it, it spread around the hotel through the air conditioning system.

I got the report that the second case wasn't reported from RTE news on radio one.

SARS is an irish issue because the irish population is worried about it. It's similar to what engineers get taught about bridges - a bridge may be well within safety tolerances and still be swaying all over the place - but noone will use it if it sways too much. It's a case of giving both real safety and the appearance of safety for those without specialist knowlege.

I don't think that they should be isolated at home when we don't know enough about SARS - or did you already know it's full history? It's already been reported to have mutated once remember. And all the reports I've been hearing for the last few weeks say that it has a 10% mortality rate and kills those with healthy immune systems just as effectively as the young/old/comprimised.

And I'm not panicing about SARS - I'm concerned that we can't seem to handle a poorly-understood contagion on a small scale. This time, we seem to have gotten off lightly - what if, as I said, next time it's a resistant strain of TB?

You're right, we'll probably get a kneejerk reaction - but that's not the fault of those of us who are being worried by the media and not well-informed by our own health service. It's the direct fault of the politicians in government.

ps. AK47s are damn hard to get through "normal" channels here. You're more likely to go nuts with a semi-automatic 12-gauge shotgun (they're perfectly legal). Never let it be said I don't try to help the guys'n'gals in the medical system

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
HJ,
People do die every day from malaria and cholera and TB and AIDS and dysentry and from falling over while putting on their trousers. (I'm not making that last one up).

People get highly worked up about things like SARS. Just like they get worried about things like shark attacks. Sharks are dangerous you know. They are so dangerous that you statistically stand a better chance of being killed by a coconut falling on your head than by a shark.

Somehow, its not the coconut trees people worry about.

When you figure that out (and it aint tough), you should be able to figure out why there is so much hype and panic about SARS, and not about these other diseases.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
ps. AK47s are damn hard to get through "normal" channels here.

Completely off topic, but I was amazed to see one on the shelf of the local knife/gun store in town....

then again, I live in Switzerland, and they're massive gun freaks. THey keep quiet about it mostly.

jc

Sparks

Bonkey,
AK47s used to be totally legal in the UK too up until some nut got given permission to buy a self-loading rifle even though no local clubs were asked, and he went on a shooting spree. All SLRs were then banned. Then we had some nut go on a spree in dunblane even though local clubs had all refused to have the nut as a member due to mental instability. All handguns were banned. The next month, some nut went on a spree through a london school with kitchen knives...
*sigh*
Seems that kneejerk reactions are the preferred method of dealing with things people don't understand. And they're deceptive in that they don't actually solve the problem, which then lets the next dunblane happen.
You have to love swiss gun control, it's the jesse ventura model ("Putting two rounds in the same hole from 30 paces is what I call gun control").
That's the difference I think, between the US system and other systems - in most other places, it's hard to get a gun without getting trained in how not to kill yourself with it accidentally.
Okay, offtopic time over

Yes, people get worked up about SARS, but as I've said, I'm not panicing about SARS - I'm worrying about the lack of a coordinated response to it. Had SARS been nastier, or been a resistant form of something like TB, we might now be in serious trouble.

(And people don't worry about coconut trees because they can see them coming - I recall seeing an OU program explaining how the perceived level of risk has to do with the visibility of the threat, how well it's understood, who it affects, what the reward is for taking the risk, how much control people have over whether or not they take that risk, and eventually, waaay down at the end of the list, what the actual severity of the risk was.)

GuanYin

Originally posted by Sparks



sykeirl,
Erm, no, as I understand it, the original Legionaires case was airborne. Of course, I may have read a seriously inaccurate set of reports, but as I understand it, it spread around the hotel through the air conditioning system.

I got the report that the second case wasn't reported from RTE news on radio one.

No, its not a case of you mis-reading it, its just you understand it wrong

The "airbourne" case ocured in an air conditioning unit in leisure pool in a hotel. Water, containing Legionella got into the system
and was dispersed in water mist spray.

In epidemipological terms this is NOT and airbourne disease. Legionella is water bourne. Without the water vapour there is no transmission. Thus it cannot be spread by airbourne infection unless the victims come into contact with the primary source.


As for the RTE 1 report, this is a station run by the people you are slagging off in the post to begin with. I don't believe the report to be accurate.

Originally posted by Sparks

SARS is an irish issue because the irish population is worried about it. It's similar to what engineers get taught about bridges - a bridge may be well within safety tolerances and still be swaying all over the place - but noone will use it if it sways too much. It's a case of giving both real safety and the appearance of safety for those without specialist knowlege.

The only reason the worry exists is because of media scaremongering. If it was reported by the media in a sensible, accurate and responsible manner then people wouldn't be as worried.

Originally posted by Sparks
I don't think that they should be isolated at home when we don't know enough about SARS - or did you already know it's full history? It's already been reported to have mutated once remember. And all the reports I've been hearing for the last few weeks say that it has a 10% mortality rate and kills those with healthy immune systems just as effectively as the young/old/comprimised.

Where do you want to put them? In hospitals where the chance is they will infect people who are at risk or doctors and nurses?
The fact is, there is little you can do to treat SARS unless it risks mortality. The international protocol for an emergency high contagion disease epidemic is to advice people to stay away from hospitals for this reason.

As for the mortality rate and healthy victims. Until I see it in a memo at work I don't believe it. Where are your reports from? CNN? Sky News?
Gimme a break!

Originally posted by Sparks
And I'm not panicing about SARS - I'm concerned that we can't seem to handle a poorly-understood contagion on a small scale. This time, we seem to have gotten off lightly - what if, as I said, next time it's a resistant strain of TB?

You don't really understand the nature of disease do you?
See what SARS is doing, is what it has evolved to do. It is designed to infect and spread. It is a masterpiece.

Now, on a world scale, I'm not surprised given teh way the Honk Kong authorities initially treated the matter, that they have the outbreak they have. However, we are not China and don't have the same population congestion issues they have so it should not be a problem here, if it ever even reaches here.

Originally posted by Sparks
You're right, we'll probably get a kneejerk reaction - but that's not the fault of those of us who are being worried by the media and not well-informed by our own health service. It's the direct fault of the politicians in government.

No its the direct fault of the media for trying to sell news by inducing fear.

Originally posted by Sparks
ps. AK47s are damn hard to get through "normal" channels here. You're more likely to go nuts with a semi-automatic 12-gauge shotgun (they're perfectly legal). Never let it be said I don't try to help the guys'n'gals in the medical system

As I was saying... extremely unlikely.

Sparks

sykeirl,

No, its not a case of you mis-reading it, its just you understand it wrong

Ah. Nope, I reread the original reports - they had it wrong and didn't mention the whole water mist part

As for the RTE 1 report, this is a station run by the people you are slagging off in the post to begin with. I don't believe the report to be accurate.

Erm, RTE is run by the Health department? Well, to be honest, knowing people that have worked there, I can understand thinking that they're a lazy bunch of sods, but that level of inaccuracy amounts to libel.

The only reason the worry exists is because of media scaremongering. If it was reported by the media in a sensible, accurate and responsible manner then people wouldn't be as worried.

Or if the Health department had spread out as much information as possible - hell, the guys in Toronto could do it, why couldn't we?

As for the mortality rate and healthy victims. Until I see it in a memo at work I don't believe it. Where are your reports from? CNN? Sky News?

The 10% figure is from the latest press release from the WHO.

You don't really understand the nature of disease do you?

'scuse me? So I'm a panicing idiot in one post and then instead of telling me the facts (some of which you don't yet know yourself) you just patonise me? This might be why some people are concerned at being ill-informed by the Health system.

See what SARS is doing, is what it has evolved to do. It is designed to infect and spread. It is a masterpiece.

It's not a masterpiece. It's a simple coronavirus from the few reports that we are getting. About as complex as influenza or a common cold. Infective rates are lower than for some of the nastier bugs, and it can't survive more than a few hours at most outside the host.

No its the direct fault of the media for trying to sell news by inducing fear.

While they certainly deserve some serious penalties for doing so, it's the job of the Health system to keep the public informed as to the level of risk; the spread of the disease; whether or not we should be seriously concerned; and what steps to take to protect ourselves. I've seen none of that so far in the press. Maybe I missed it? There is at least info on the websites, but for something that's gotten everyone so wound up, I would have thought that something more proactive on the part of the Health boards than putting info on a website (not that the website isn't necessary). Hell, there's supposed to be a leaflet being handed out at airports - why wasn't that posted when the level of panic was first seen?

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by Sparks
Had SARS been nastier, or been a resistant form of something like TB, we might now be in serious trouble.

Actually, we have already seen mdr-TB (multi-drug-resistant) in Ireland and guess what, it didn't cause an epidemic, it didn't wipe out half the population, we weren't in serious trouble and the public health system dealt with it quite effectively. . . . and, it didn't make SKY news. (Take a look at ndsc.ie and read about diseases that REALLY affect the people of Ireland)

This whole SARS business is blown way way out of proportion. It will dissapear from the planet having killed less people than die of diarrohea in a single day. We should not be concerned / panicked / frightened and we should not pressure the health system into spending money that it can't afford just to placate an ill-informed electorate.

If you want to beat the government / MM about the health system, beat them about issues that affect Ireland. My Dad was diagnosed with an enlarged prostate last October and it took 6 months before he saw a consultant, had the tests, confirmed cancer and removed the prostate. He's fine now TG, but there is every possibility that his disease could have spread in this time and that the operation could have come too late. While he was in hospital I was talking to the guy in the next bed . . .. he was a private patient on VHI, enlarged prostate 2 weeks ago. Diagnosis and surgery straight away. This is where there is a crisis in the health care system and this is where real Irish people are being affected. . . . . we are not affected by some bloody virus thousands of miles away which now being controlled quite effectively by WHO.

dathi1

Our laughable immigration system makes new 21st century super viruses like SARS open house..consider in the not too distant future the tax payer will have to foot the lawsuit bill for people who contracted AIDS and sub tropical forms of syphilis from their immigrant partners because the Government "didn't inform the public about the risks" at the time i.e.: 1996-2008

dathi1

also on the Health issue: After 10 years in the service industry I have seen for myself the immoral and corrupt wastage that's in our Hospitals....besides non attending consultants...the Unions are primarily the main cause of our bad health care..they run the hospitals. You can plough as much money as you want into the Irish Health system but it will never make a differences so long as the over staffed personnel pyramid systems exist. From my experience the amount of waste on overstaffing in the top heavy management sector is incredible.

Lemming

My two cents on this virus.

I'm appalled at the media from both the hysteria camp and the "why are we worrying" camp. The hysteria camp for obvious reasons, but the "why are we worrying" camp for even more worrying reasons as follows:

SARS isn't a problem right now. What if a figure of, say, a third of the population of Dublin (300,000 or so) were infected. Is it still nothign to worry about? Why not? Never mind that the health-care system in this country would most likely collapse with even a third of this hypothetical number infected. The Potential of this virus is dangerous indeed. If it's not stamped on in the early stages it WILL be prudent to start listening to the hysteria camp.

Already, the CDC (or WHO - can't recall) have found 12 variants of SARS. That shows that the virus is mutating already. Now that I find worrying.

I'm not saying start running around screaming, but I'm saying that this is far more serious (if not dealt with effectively now) than some people think.

GuanYin

quote:

---

It's not a masterpiece. It's a simple coronavirus from the few reports that we are getting. About as complex as influenza or a common cold. Infective rates are lower than for some of the nastier bugs, and it can't survive more than a few hours at most outside the host.

---

Just to clarify this, I wasn't speaking specifically of SARS. ALL viruses are masterpieces in evolutionary terms. Anyone who thinks a virus is simple or basic has a very skewed and arrogant vision of life.

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by Lemming

SARS isn't a problem right now. What if a figure of, say, a third of the population of Dublin (300,000 or so) were infected. Is it still nothign to worry about? Why not? Never mind that the health-care system in this country would most likely collapse with even a third of this hypothetical number infected. The Potential of this virus is dangerous indeed. If it's not stamped on in the early stages it WILL be prudent to start listening to the hysteria camp.

There is no rational for believing this might ever occur ! The NDSC is in place and will be able to deal with an early stage outbreak quite effectively. We have seen countries with a much less sophisticated health-care system than us gain very early control of this condition (eg Vietnam) . . .

Already, the CDC (or WHO - can't recall) have found 12 variants of SARS. That shows that the virus is mutating already. Now that I find worrying

Why ? ? There are no medical countermeasures for SARS. . . no vaccine / no treatment ...... so why do you believe that 12 mutations is worrying ? Its already pretty virulent and is unlikely to mutate and become more so . . . . the frequency of the mutations seen to date are more to do with its instability than anything else . . .

We do not need to spend money getting ready to cope with something that will not happen. We have plentiful need for that money elsewhere !

GuanYin

Originally posted by Sparks

Or if the Health department had spread out as much information as possible - hell, the guys in Toronto could do it, why couldn't we?

I believe Toronto had an epidemic on their hands.
What exactly is the health system supposed to be reporting. We don't have a SARS problem here. We probably won't have one.
There could possibly be an ebola zaire epidemic here too if an infected person from congo gets here (which is far worse than the SARS epidemic). Should the Dept. of Health release media on that too? There could be a variola major strain taken from Vector out there somewhere, should we educate on that too? Where does it end?

If and when there is a problem on these shores or in neighbouring countries I'd say ring the bells. Until then I think you are over reacting.

Originally posted by Sparks

The 10% figure is from the latest press release from the WHO.

The current official figure is actually 6.4% mortality. But thats not the whole story. 85% of those are in China or Chinese Regions.
5% in Canada which was mainly due to site epidemiology and all other deaths in asian countries where the health care and standard of living doesn't approach ours.

Now, saying that there is a 10% mortality rate from those figures when worrying about an Irish infection, is to bias the statistics slightly.

Originally posted by Sparks

'scuse me? So I'm a panicing idiot in one post and then instead of telling me the facts (some of which you don't yet know yourself) you just patonise me?

Apologies if I am patronising. But I am explaining to you why you don't need to panic and I am trying to explain the facts. But you seem determined not to accept what I am saying and are convinced that we are at risk of people dying, depite the fact that there has yet to be one SARS death on this continent.

Originally posted by Sparks

it's the job of the Health system to keep the public informed as to the level of risk; the spread of the disease; whether or not we should be seriously concerned; and what steps to take to protect ourselves. I've seen none of that so far in the press.

I do believe if you turn on Q&A or Primetime this week, you'd have seen senior health officials saying we are not at major risk and there is not largue cause for concern. It was even mentioned previously in this thread. Someone said they were worried that the health dept wasn't concerned. Do you not see humour in that? The press are the ones blowing this sky high. Of course you won't see the Star, the Sun, the Mirror, the herald or even the Indo saying "all is well here".

GuanYin

Originally posted by hallelujajordan
There is no rational for believing this might ever occur !
<snip>
We do not need to spend money getting ready to cope with something that will not happen. We have plentiful need for that money elsewhere !

Thank you! Someone who sees sense.

Lemming

Originally posted by hallelujajordan
There is no rational for believing this might ever occur ! The NDSC is in place and will be able to deal with an early stage outbreak quite effectively. We have seen countries with a much less sophisticated health-care system than us gain very early control of this condition (eg Vietnam) . . .

Given how the health-care system reacted to *possible* anthrax cases, I am not instilled with confidence. Given how the system reacted to a *possible* case of SARS was even less so since it is far more recent.

So it's not irrational to consider the possibility, however far away it may seem. With the special olympics being hosted here, the chances of infection are higher, given that there will be high concentrations of country 'X' resprentatives in a specific area. Lets be clear here .. I am not screaming "OH my god we're gonna die". What I am saying is that you're being a little too complacent about the threat.

Why ? ? There are no medical countermeasures for SARS. . . no vaccine / no treatment ...... so why do you believe that 12 mutations is worrying ? Its already pretty virulent and is unlikely to mutate and become more so . . . . the frequency of the mutations seen to date are more to do with its instability than anything else . . .

I'm not referring to treatment. I am referring to the fact that the virus is mutating so soon after becoming known. Thus far the mortality rate is rather low, but the virus is refinining itself. I'm not looking at the here and now. I'm looking at the potential future .

We do not need to spend money getting ready to cope with something that will not happen.

SO you're a world expert and clairvoyant to boot eh? :rolleyes:

Prudence with such a phenomenon is not a bad thing, rather than this blaise attitude.

Put it this way. I've friends in Donegal, one of which has two little children (about 2 years of age) with Cystic Fibrosis. Needless to say, ANY infection and they are f*cked. Can you tell him that he's no need to be concerned about the welfare of his children given the last 2/3 years "performance" of our illustrious health-service?

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by Lemming

I'm not referring to treatment. I am referring to the fact that the virus is mutating so soon after becoming known. Thus far the mortality rate is rather low, but the virus is refinining itself. I'm not looking at the here and now. I'm looking at the potential future .

SO you're a world expert and clairvoyant to boot eh? :rolleyes:

This is quite simply not true and it is this kind of information in the press that is causing this panic. The fact that they have found genetic variants of the virus that they believe causes SARS does not mean that it is mutating to refine itself. . . . it means it is an unstable virus and hey thats what they do !! The capacity for this to mutate is only relevant if there is a vaccine or a treatment that the mutation would render less efficient and we are not likely to have such treatments for a very long time. (We're also conveniently ignoring the fact that this coronavirus has been identified in less than 60% of SARS cases - In fact, in the one suspect case that Ireland has had, this virus was not detected)

I am neither world expert or clairvoyant but I am a microbiologist . . . I have worked in the past with dangerous pathogens and I understand the epidemiology of infectious disease and I can assure you that this country is plenty prepared to deal with SARS . . . If you want any better that what we currently have you need to answer the question posed by skyeirl . . ie. where do we draw the line. . . should we be ready to cope with ebola, plague, anthrax, smallpox, vaccinia. . . . the list goes on, there are many diseases out there that you wont have even heard of that "could" under very unlikely circumstances enter Ireland . . . should we have the proper measures to deal with each of these ?

I've friends in Donegal, one of which has two little children (about 2 years of age) with Cystic Fibrosis. Needless to say, ANY infection and they are f*cked. Can you tell him that he's no need to be concerned about the welfare of his children given the last 2/3 years "performance" of our illustrious health-service?

With respect, these children are more likely to be infected with a common cold / respiratory virus than a disease that so far has travelled only very minimally outside of Asia...
And you have actually hit the nail on the head . . . we need a healthcare system that can more adequately and efficiently deal with the likes of your friends kids and my dad and we won't even get close to that if we keep putting pressure on Micheal Martin to react to whatever happens to be in the news that day. . .

Sparks

Oh for pity's sake.
Look, here's the situation, according to the prevalant news sources. SARS isn't well-understood. The WHO is saying the mortality rate is rising (the press release I read said they were now saying 10%) and other quoted medical experts are warning that they're underestimating. Because of the nature of people, we're worried. Understand that word - worried. Not screaming with panic, worried. The media is playing on our fears? Of bloody course they are. The job of the health boards includes countering this! Dammit, if someone had stood up and countered what the right-wing idiots running sky news and it's peers have been screaming for ages, we wouldn't have those twats at clonmel cancelling their hosting of the Special Olympics team from Hong Kong.
You can happily sit there as much as you want and say it's all our fault for listening to the media - the facts won't change. One of the responsibilities of the health system is to keep the general public informed as to the nature of the threat, it's seriousness and preventative and diagnositic measures. That shouldn't have been left to the idiots running most of the TV and print media.

Secondly, if the NDSC is working so well, where are all of the reports coming from on people not notifying the correct people in relation to different cases? The legionaires case for example - why wait until it's confirmed before picking up the phone? The point (unless I don't understand this at all) of the ndsc is to monitor on a national level to spot potential epidemics and to nip them in the bud - which would require notification as early as possible, even if that risks false alarms. And if I'm wrong on this - again, where are the ndsc representatives pointing out why?

Thirdly, I'd be quite worried if we didn't have the means to deal with a large number of nasty bugs showing up on our shores.

Fourthly, I doubt you'll find many people that don't think that the health system is in a mess and needs fixing - saying that they're yelling at MM about different things every week is ignoring what they've been yelling for the last few years.

GuanYin

Originally posted by Sparks
The job of the health boards includes countering this!
<snip>
One of the responsibilities of the health system is to keep the general public informed as to the nature of the threat, it's seriousness and preventative and diagnositic measures. That shouldn't have been left to the idiots running most of the TV and print media.

*sigh*

Yes, and there have been public health doctors and officials on TV every night this week saying that there is no need to be worried.
They have been trying but until they get their own tabloid, its never going to be half as effective.
Unfortunately its probably drowned out by the rest of the stuff so you seem to have missed it.

Originally posted by Sparks
Secondly, if the NDSC is working so well, where are all of the reports coming from on people not notifying the correct people in relation to different cases? The legionaires case for example - why wait until it's confirmed before picking up the phone? The point (unless I don't understand this at all) of the ndsc is to monitor on a national level to spot potential epidemics and to nip them in the bud - which would require notification as early as possible, even if that risks false alarms. And if I'm wrong on this - again, where are the ndsc representatives pointing out why?
[/B]

Ok in your ideal scenario, if I see a patient and I scream "disease X" when I get a suspected case, the NDSC comes running and the press go mad. Everyone sits around while the tests (which still have to be done to confirm the case) are carried out and then after there has been worry we find out if the diagnosis is right.

No infection is stopped. The patient isn't going anywhere, anyone infected is still infected and an epidemiologist can't go looking for a disease if he/she doesn't know what it is exactly.

If it turns out to be a false alarm, alot of time and money is wasted, a public worry is started for nothing, the doctor looks publically very silly and the patients privacy is invaded.

Its just common sense to confirm a diagnosis before treatment. Its a quite common thing that doctors do, just in case they accidently tell you you have a heart condition instead of say, heartburn.

Originally posted by Sparks
Thirdly, I'd be quite worried if we didn't have the means to deal with a large number of nasty bugs showing up on our shores.
[/B]

And there are protocols. Which are probably being covered quite efficiently. Look at the CDC or WHO website on SARS and I guarentee you they say keep a suspected case in isolation, but won't say in a hospital.

Originally posted by Sparks
Fourthly, I doubt you'll find many people that don't think that the health system is in a mess and needs fixing - saying that they're yelling at MM about different things every week is ignoring what they've been yelling for the last few years. [/B]

I think the Irish Health System is a very bad joke. But I see problems in practical every day areas like lack of equipment, staff and even actual hospitals. I don't see problems because the public health workers aren't being drawn into hunting the bogeyman.

I think I'll take a leaf from bugs book and agree to differ. Personally I think the soundbytes I have heard on primetime television and radio has been more than adequate and that the irrational reactions are due to people believing what they want to believe...the worst case scenario.

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by Sparks

Secondly, if the NDSC is working so well, where are all of the reports coming from on people not notifying the correct people in relation to different cases? The legionaires case for example - why wait until it's confirmed before picking up the phone? The point (unless I don't understand this at all) of the ndsc is to monitor on a national level to spot potential epidemics and to nip them in the bud - which would require notification as early as possible, even if that risks false alarms. And if I'm wrong on this - again, where are the ndsc representatives pointing out why?

How well or not the NDSC is working should be judged on epidemiological evidence and not on irrational hysteria. The legionnaires disease case was dealt with appropriately and in accordance with protocol. The simple fact is that until they had identified the organism in question there was nothing to report. It seems that if you had your way every infectious disease would be considered reportable before a diagnosis had been made, we would have many people in quarantine every day. . . a health system that would crash completely with the cost of this and a public that is frightened to go outside the door.


Also, can you link to the WHO report that says that the SARS mortality rate is rising because I cannot find such information . . .

Sparks

Yes, and there have been public health doctors and officials on TV every night this week saying that there is no need to be worried.
They have been trying but until they get their own tabloid, its never going to be half as effective.
Unfortunately its probably drowned out by the rest of the stuff so you seem to have missed it.

I've seen Martin saying all is well, and one or two other mandarins, but no doctors. (You'll have to forgive me for not trusting a politician's word, I'm Irish). I guess you're right, it's been drowned out - so it's about time whoever handles the public education in the health department stepped their game up a bit.

Ok in your ideal scenario, if I see a patient and I scream "disease X" when I get a suspected case, the NDSC comes running and the press go mad.

No, that's not what I said. My ideal scenario is noone gets sick.
Next-best is someone comes in, gets diagnosed as possibly having contagious disease X. Patient is isolated, doctor calls the ndsc and says "I have patient john doe, suspected disease X, here's the medical information, tests are due back tuesday from such-and-such a lab." NDSC says thanks very much, takes note of the case and checks back later (or doctor calls back with a progress report). If confirmed and it's serious enough, the media are used to inform the public. If significant numbers of suspect cases turn up, that step is taken prior to confirmation, with the advisory that it's unconfirmed. In case of epidemics, preprinted leaflets on the disease, symptoms and contact details and so on are distributed to the population. Spokepersons are made available to every news station for every program.

the patients privacy is invaded.

Anyone here know the names of any suspected SARS case? I've not heard of any. And besides, in cases of public health concerns with contagious diseases, patient privacy gets modified. For example, if you get influenza, you are required to inform your library of the fact so they can destroy books you have out on loan at the time. Where's your privacy there?

It's just common sense to confirm a diagnosis before treatment. Its a quite common thing that doctors do, just in case they accidently tell you you have a heart condition instead of say, heartburn.

It's actually common sense to take preventative measures for the worst-case scenario prior to confirmation to give the patient the best chance. If someone may have had a heart attack, they're not generally given an packet of Tums and sent home...

HJ,

How well or not the NDSC is working should be judged on epidemiological evidence and not on irrational hysteria.

In other words, wait till the **** hits the fan and something really nasty shows up - and in the meantime pay no attention to reports in the national news about poor and nonexistant communication between hospitals and the NDSC?

Also, can you link to the WHO report that says that the SARS mortality rate is rising because I cannot find such information . . .

Here are the general news reports...
And here's the report that confused me - Prof.Anderson in Imperial stated that the WHO figures indicated a 10% mortality rate...

GuanYin

Originally posted by Sparks
I've seen Martin saying all is well, and one or two other mandarins, but no doctors. (You'll have to forgive me for not trusting a politician's word, I'm Irish). I guess you're right, it's been drowned out - so it's about time whoever handles the public education in the health department stepped their game up a bit.

The information is there I think its being overlooked and ignored... you seem to have done it yourself. I was amused to see the link you posted quoting Prof. Anderson :

"This is not a highly transmissible infection," he said.

"It's been effectively contained in most of the developed countries in the world with a very limited number of cases, Britain being a good example."

He added that the world has a "long way to go" before it learns how
to clinically better manage the disease.

However, he said that some of the "doom and gloom predictions" about the spread of the disease had been exaggerated


This has been the message the government, doctors and hospitals have been giving over the past few weeks. People are ignoring them or argueing against them (as you are now) and I am beginning to think that most people, like yourself, will believe what they want, despite how little they know about the facts of the issue.

Originally posted by Sparks

Next-best is someone comes in, gets diagnosed as possibly having contagious disease X. Patient is isolated, doctor calls the ndsc and says "I have patient john doe, suspected disease X, here's the medical information, tests are due back tuesday from such-and-such a lab." NDSC says thanks very much, takes note of the case and checks back later (or doctor calls back with a progress report).

Generally the NDSC get the call after the labs have confirmed the test and respond immediately. Exactly what the difference you think this effect will be is is beyond me.

Originally posted by Sparks

If confirmed and it's serious enough, the media are used to inform the public.

Please god, no!

Originally posted by Sparks

Anyone here know the names of any suspected SARS case?

In Ireland? I know one suspected.

I've not heard of any. And besides, in cases of public health concerns with contagious diseases,

Originally posted by Sparks

It's actually common sense to take preventative measures for the worst-case scenario prior to confirmation to give the patient the best chance.

What difference will it make. All hospitals are well versed on SARS. There is noone at the NDSC that knows more than the people already at the hospital. I think you really should read up on epidemiology and come back before you start giving opinions on how the NDSC should run.


You know in general, you seem to be missing the point. I'll leave you with a quote from the wonderful gospel for news that you love: The Internet, and indeed your own link:

"It's been effectively contained in most of the developed countries in the world with a very limited number of cases, Britain being a good example."

There is no major risk.

Sparks

Thanks so much for the patronising slapdown there syke, nice to know that the health service has the same approach to the public's wellbeing as the US has to the wellbeing of the iraqis :rolleyes:

There is no major risk.

From SARS?
Yes. I know. Been reading my posts have you?

From the health system?
"Where did all those fcuking indians come from?"

GuanYin

If you think that repeatedly disagreeing with you because I feel you're points are inaccurate a slapdown, I'm sorry, I don't intend to patronise but really the internet and news reports you are sourcing are the root of the problem in your arguements.

I am not the health service, I work in public health, yes, but I can have an opinion on a public forum that is attributed to me and me alone, thank you.

I agree with you on the state of the health service, I made that clear early one. However your choice of SARS as the soapbox to make your arguements is a very bad one.

I'm not irish myself, so I take offence to that last remark.

mike65

Originally posted by hallelujajordan
The legionnaires disease case was dealt with appropriately and in accordance with protocol. The simple fact is that until they had identified the organism in question there was nothing to report.

Legionnaries disease is notifiable by law but the case in Waterford was'nt disclosed for a week.

Mike.

Sparks

syke,
That last remark wasn't a racist comment - it's an old joke, namely "What were Custer's last words?". It was used in this context to mean that saying there is no major risk with regard to the health system's capabilities is to display a lack of situational awareness similar to Custer's.

And SARS isn't a soapbox, it's an issue that's worrying people because of a lack of responsible media, accurate information and a poor presence in the media by the health system.

And it's not the repeated disagreements that are a slapdown, it's this sort of thing:

Until I see it in a memo at work I don't believe it. Where are your reports from? CNN? Sky News?
Gimme a break!

You don't really understand the nature of disease do you?

If confirmed and it's serious enough, the media are used to inform the public.

Please god, no!

And the biggie :

most people, like yourself, will believe what they want, despite how little they know about the facts of the issue.

That's the biggie because the response of questioning or arguing with doctors is a learned response, brought about by personal experience in most cases. Besides, when you are dealing with the health of other people, you can't simply dismiss their concerns with a wave of the back of your hand. Exactly which part of the health service do you work in to say that you don't know this?

ps. Just seen in the Irish Times that there is now an inquiry into the communication with the NDSC over the legionaires question.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
And SARS isn't a soapbox, it's an issue that's worrying people because of a lack of responsible media, accurate information and a poor presence in the media by the health system.

And it's not the repeated disagreements that are a slapdown, it's this sort of thing:

First of all, I agree 100% with the claims of irresponsible media. No question. If more people realised how irresponsible the media are, there would be less of a problem. Some years ago, my mum got very very irate when I gave out to her for trying to tell me that if I got a headache, or just felt under the weather, I should take myself immediately in to an emergency room in a hospital to get urgently checked for something-or-other....which she had heard an expert on the Joe Duffy show say was the best course of action.

She couldnt understand what I was driving at when I pointed out that there are more people in Ireland who feel "under the weather" or have a headache every day than there are hospital beds...and this muppet was encouraging every single one of those people to descend on the hospitals. He even apaprently said "do not go to your GP. He cant tell you if you have this or not. Go directly and immediately to the hospital".

However....you go on to say that there is poor information available. I agree - there is, because so little is known. Every "pronouncement" we've had has been challenged and superceded within days. First it was a multi-vector virus, then it wasnt. Then it was "just" a coronavirus, now it mightnt be. It was highly deadly, then it wasnt, now it might be again.....

However, you then go on to criticse the health service for not taking part in this media circus. Exactly what do you want them to say? That they havent got a clue? That they will tell you to do X, but be aware that they may tell you tomorrow not just to stop doing X, but that its the worst possible thing you could be doing according to the latest findings?

I mean seriously....while I fully agree with the general idea that the Health Service needs a good beating with a large stick, this is the wrong stick from my perspective.
If anyone disagrees, then I challenge them to tell us what the health service should be saying in the media....because if anyone can figure out the message they should be sending that would have been consistent from the start and in any way beneficial, I'm sure companies will line up around the block to offer you large amounts of money to join their PR departments.

jc

Sparks

bonkey,
The media is irresponsible - which is why the health system should have a seriously heavy presence there, to counteract stupid, pointless or panic-causing information, to answer questions from non-medical people. They may not be able to say what the precise genetic makeup of the virus is, but they can tell you the symptoms, whether anyone's developed these symptoms in the country, what precautions are being taken and so on. If it was necessary to wait until all of the details were fully confirmed and well-known before announcing something, we'd never hear about new strains of influenza until half the country was sick.

GuanYin

Originally posted by Sparks

And SARS isn't a soapbox, it's an issue that's worrying people because of a lack of responsible media, accurate information and a poor presence in the media by the health system.

Well I just disagree. I think there is sufficient information out there. I've heard all the correct soundings from the right people, its just the hype is louder.

Originally posted by Sparks

That's the biggie because the response of questioning or arguing with doctors is a learned response, brought about by personal experience in most cases. Besides, when you are dealing with the health of other people, you can't simply dismiss their concerns with a wave of the back of your hand. Exactly which part of the health service do you work in to say that you don't know this?

I don't dismiss the concersn of anyone. However I am allowed to have an opinion. How I feel about people and how I treat people are two different things. This isn't a hospital, this isn't a clinic, its a BBS and I think th e whole point is opinions.

People arguing or questioning personal diagnosis is one thing. But people causing mass hype over something they read second hand is another.

And I'm sorry, but you don't live in utopian society and until you can get robots to work as clinicians, you will get doctors, nurses and others looking at disdain at the amount of idiotic self-diagnosis people still come in with. Its not to say you express that to these people, but jesus here I'll tell you exactly what I think.

What I think is, (for the millionth time). The SARS problem is only a problem due to the media portrayal. If Ebola stories started tomorrow in the same light, there would be front page stories on every paper saying we have a plasma shortage in this country etc etc. and people would panic and we'd be having this thread about Ebola.

Originally posted by Sparks

ps. Just seen in the Irish Times that there is now an inquiry into the communication with the NDSC over the legionaires question.

I think they'll find it made no difference. I also bet it was initiated by a press hounded politician somewhere.

GuanYin

Originally posted by Sparks
bonkey,
The media is irresponsible - which is why the health system should have a seriously heavy presence there, to counteract stupid, pointless or panic-causing information, to answer questions from non-medical people. They may not be able to say what the precise genetic makeup of the virus is, but they can tell you the symptoms, whether anyone's developed these symptoms in the country, what precautions are being taken and so on. If it was necessary to wait until all of the details were fully confirmed and well-known before announcing something, we'd never hear about new strains of influenza until half the country was sick.

Or we can harrass the media into responsible reporting rather than spend money from the already inadequate health budget which will ultimately mean that some hospital will eventually not be able to offer the required treatment to save someones life.

You are suggesting spending money using the time of people who are already thinly stretched, when the problem isn't with them to begin with.

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by sykeirl


I think they'll find it made no difference. I also bet it was initiated by a press hounded politician somewhere.

This is EXACTLY the problem .. .. . Public / Media hound the poiticians because they believe that there is a threat that we are not ready for. Politians are forced into diverting funds to "be ready" to deal with this non-existent threat. This diverted money has to come from the health budget so someone else suffers! Meanwhile, nobody is paying any notice to what the epidemiologists are saying. It's just not a sensible way to manage disease surveillance.......

Sparks

HJ,
That is an excellent summation of the problem - but the solution is to overcome the hype that skye and yourself bemoan through better public relations. It's not an easy job, but it's exceptionally necessary. And this issue is demonstrating why. If education is left out of the response to such a disease, then people will panic due to a lack of information.

We spend 9 billion euro a year on the health service - that's a quarter of the total government spending annually. I'd love to know how that figure can be inadaquate. Organisational reform seems deperately necessary.

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by Sparks


We spend 9 billion euro a year on the health service - that's a quarter of the total government spending annually. I'd love to know how that figure can be inadaquate. Organisational reform seems deperately necessary.

Agreed !