[long article] Compulsory pre-marriage courses

yossarin

a long one from todays Irish Times:

Looking before you leap

Taking the plunge in a Catholic church? Then you'll have to go on a
pre-marriage course. But how relevant are they in a society more diverse and questioning of Church doctrine, asks Suzanne Lynch
Sheila and David have been living together for three years. Last Christmas they decided to tie the knot, and they are getting married this summer. They were astounded to discover that even though they have been living, eating and sleeping together since 2000, they still had to do a pre-marriage course if they wanted to marry in a Catholic church.

"I was really taken aback," says Sheila. "It seems like a ridiculous requirement, especially for people like us, who have been essentially living as a married couple for the past three years." David agrees. His doubts were confirmed when they went on a weekend marriage-preparation course in February.
"Although some of the speakers were quite good, I found the whole process patronising," he says. "It's presumptuous to assume that people who have made a conscious decision to get married need advice on their relationship. Take Sheila and I. We have been in a committed relationship for years and know everything about each other. We hardly need advice from a stranger on relationship problems."

Sheila and David's views are indicative of the negative perception of pre-marriage courses. The mere mention conjures images of damp parish halls filled with anxious brides-to-be and disgruntled future grooms sitting through tedious lectures that have little relevance to modern marriage.
Much of the resentment stems from the courses being more or less unavoidable. Last year, more than 6,000 couples went on pre-marriage courses run by Accord, the largest pre-marriage counselling service (which recently dropped the words "Catholic marriage care service" from its logo). Another organisation, the non-denominational Marriage & Relationship Counselling Services (MRCS), has seen its client base increase over the past few years. Its policy of assigning a counsellor to each couple is an attractive alternative to the group-based structure of most courses. Other organisations include Cork Marriage Counselling Centre, which last year attracted about 800 couples to its courses, and Mount Argus, in south Dublin, which offers a one-day programme on Saturdays.
So can pre-marriage courses justify themselves in a society that has become a lot more open, diverse and questioning of Church doctrine?
"We were very conscious of the negative public perception that surrounds pre-marriage courses," says Dr Colm O'Connor, director of Cork Marriage Counselling Centre. "As a result, we have been constantly refining and developing our course over the last 10 years to meet the expectations and needs of modern couples."

The effort to shed their negative image is reflected in the organisations' language. Courses at Accord are led by facilitators rather than teachers, with words such as "engage", "interact" and "communicate" embodying the forward-looking ethos of the modern pre-marriage course.
There is also a growing culture of accountability to clients - who are paying customers, after all, forking out upwards of €80 a couple. Most organisations cite their use of customer-response forms as proof of their commitment.

<snip>

So how far have the changes affected couples' experience of pre-marriage courses? For Emma and Michael, who went to MRCS in February, the course proved surprisingly beneficial.

"I'd heard so many negative stories about the courses that it was on the bottom of my to-do list for the wedding preparations," says Emma.
"The prospect of discussing my views on marriage with a roomful of strangers was also off-putting, so we chose a course that was geared towards individual couples. I must admit that, despite my reservations, I was really impressed with the course. Our counsellor helped us to focus on some key areas, both positive and negative, of our relationship."

<snip>

There is evidence that courses are beginning to move in this [post-marriage course] direction. Most organisations that offer pre-marriage courses are also involved in marriage counselling. The idea that the two might feed into each other is to the fore at Cork Marriage Counselling Centre. "We hope that pre-marriage courses will be seen as the first point of contact for couples who may return to us five or 10 years down the line for help," says Dr O'Connor. "Eventually, we hope to establish a database whereby clients can keep up contact with us throughout their married life."

This interaction between pre- and post-marriage counselling is welcome. Pre-marriage courses are many people's first experience of professional marriage guidance, so a positive experience can make couples more likely to seek help should they need it later in their lives.
The efforts pre-marriage courses have made to move with the times are commendable, but they need to be sustained to break free of the image of an out-of-date obligation.

By adopting a longer-term approach, the future of pre-marriage courses looks promising.

Personaly, i think that pre-marriage courses can't be a bad thing. I'm sure that there is lots of things that a couple should know about that they might not find out by just living together (kids, money planning, etc.). IMHO, What people are reacting to is the fear that they'll get a collection of religious stuff from the original men only club along with the caring and sharing.

So, should pre-marriage courses be compulsary ?, and if they are should they be religious or generic state sponsored ?

I think that a state sponsered parenting course would be good. My sister is about to have a baby, and as good as she can plan, I'm sure that she'll be shocked by how much she has to learn once the babby comes.

Also, It occured to me that the attitude of the couples was the most interesting: they want to get married in a catholic church, yet don't want to abide by the rules of that church. The roman catholic church is not a democracy, yet people treat it as if it is.

Beruthiel

So, should pre-marriage courses be compulsary ?

my own personnel view is, no, I resented having to do it, I got absolutely nothing out of it, and really, it’s not going to change anyone’s mind or their behaviour in the long run.
The only time I think this course would be useful is if the couple are very young and don’t really know what they’re getting into.

I think that a state sponsered parenting course would be good

this on the other hand should be made compulsory! I elected to do one of these for myself and the amount of tricks I learned to bring up my daughter without resorting to shouting or violence ie. slapping, was nothing short of excellent. Most parents who have their first child truly are at their wits end sometimes, especially when their child is behaving badly, that course saved me!! And the tricks still work to this date! I could not recommend one highly enough

Borzoi

if you want a Catholic wedding you gotta play by the Catholic rules. Seems fairly simple to me.

yossarin

if you want a Catholic wedding you gotta play by the Catholic rules

...one for the religion board ? (if we had one:))

Beruthiel - what was the name of the parenting course? was it irish ? is it still running ?

also, was your pre-marriage course religious in its emphasis ?

Beruthiel

Beruthiel - what was the name of the parenting course? was it irish ? is it still running ?

oh lordie yossarin, you're asking me to go waay back, she's 15 now! I did it down in castlebar, I may still have the book at home, I'll have a look tonight and see

also, was your pre-marriage course religious in its emphasis ?

as far as I can remember it was run by priests all right but they kept religion out of it and just discussed the problems you can have in marriage and how to deal with them - nothing you wouldn't know already if you had been living with the person, which most people do now a days

commuterised

The woman who wrote this article posted on weddingsonline.ie for months asking for people to give her feedback on pre marriage courses. I didn't answer her and now I wish I had.

I just got married 2 months ago. I am Catholic and my husband is COI. We got married in the Catholic Church by a Catholic priest and a Canon in an interchurch ceremony.

Both priests suggested that we do a pre marriage course but neither of them said it was compulsory. We decided to do an inter church course run by Embrace, well I pushed for it because I thought it would be a good environment to discuss the religious implications of an inter church relationship on our lives and those of our children(when they arrive!).

Some was invalid to us. In this day and age the majority of couples live together and share financial responsibility for their lives together so telling us how to have joint accounts and how to divide out the household chores was a bit useless.

Most of the couples on the course were getting married in the next few days/weeks so the course was already too late for them. I believe this course would have a great effect of couples who are just about to take the plunge and move in together but it is quite dated for couples living in 2003.

That aside I'm glad we did it, we did both take good points from it and it helped us discuss issues that would arise in our marriage that neither of us had even considered especially where planning a family is concerned.

So basically what I'm saying is pre marriage courses are NOT compulsory in this country. It wholly depends on what priest you get to do your documentation. I don't believe in forcing people to do it. It should be something that is agreed between the couple in question and undertaken because the couple want to get the best start possible out of their marriage.


If you're about to get into this situation, my advice is pick your priest well!!

yossarin

I'll have a look tonight and see

don't put yourself out - I'm just curious 'cos of my sis. cheers though !

so these courses aren't compulsory in this country - i had assumed that they were for the article. Its funny the mix of feudalism and franchise that the church has going.

Nevyn

you were looking for info yossarin

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91915

Beruthiel

ah great Thaed!
I'm saved - I couldn't find the book yossarin - most likely I gave it to a friend...

yossarin

ahh, Dank U Well..
cheers both of you !

cujimmy

We were told before we got married that we would have to do a pre marriage course, we told the priest that we had been living together for years and didnt need any advice on living together as a couple, besides i am a social worker and my wife is a nurse and felt that when it came to communication skills etc we could teach the bloody thing, but the priest said no we would have to attend and so signed us up , when ever we were susposeed to go along we would ring up and say that there had been an emergency and that i / she had to work. The priest gave up in the long run and duly married us

daveirl

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Nevyn

You dont need to do a premarriage course to be wed a registation office, that is where legal marriage occurs. The Catholic church and the church of Ireland have a dispensation that allows people wed there not to have a seperate civil proceeding. If you of any other religion ( even the jewish community that have been here a very long time ) you must have the civil proceeding as well.

So it is not the government telling to to take a premartial but the rules of what ever church you want to be wed in.

daveirl

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yossarin

not as such - I actually thought that they were at first, but as commuterised pointed out, it just depends on the priest that you
get. He'll tell you to do it or let you off depending.

You'd have trouble making somthing like this compulsary, as people don't generally like being told what to do regarding their love life. maybe it reduces the spontenieity and uniqueness of it all.

I was just wondering if a couple would be well advised to do one, and if so, should they be state sponsored rather than the quasi-religious type that are offered now

the consensus - based on that article and opinions from here - seems to be that they are useful for younger couples who havn't lived together.

seamus

Definitely not compulsory. As I have heard so many people say over and over, they're useless. Especially these days, most people live together about 3/4 years before making it a 'formal' arrangement. They already know pretty much how a marriage-type relationship works.

IMO, the very nature of marriage has changed completely. These days, marrying someone is more about having the big ceremony and declaring love and commitment in front of friends. In times past, it was about having kids, and making families and 'doing the right thing' - not that it's not still about that - but nowadays it's far less necessary, apart from gaining some extra legal recognition, and satisfying the girl's lifelong wedding fantasies .

I would certainly like a state-sponsored type programme, where if two people, especially young people, or people who have been going out for less than a year, are strongly urged to participate, but it would be far from compulsory.

I find it interesting that there seems to be a massive divide now between marriage attitudes in the working and middle classes. Middle class people now tend to move in together much later and get married even later again. From what I see, working class people tend to move in together much earlier and get married earlier. This is just from two cases I know:
My parents got married at 22/23 (quite late back then) and hadn't been living together, but had been going out for 6/7 years.(quite a long time before marriage back then). I'm 21, been going out with the same girl for 3 years. Marriage bells are a loooong time off. Ditto with two of my other brothers who live their gfs.

A friend of mine's mum is 39. He's 20. His parents never married, and his Dad fecked off when he was around 2. His gf of a year is pregnant, and they're getting a house together from the corporation. /me hums the tune of Offspring - Way down the line.

As bigoted as it may seem - who do you think is in more need of pre-marriage counselling? But I still wouldn't make it compulsory. I'd certainly like to see a state-sponsored set of pre-marriage course, and pre-marital couples being given a social worker (if they wish). But making it compulsory solves nothing.

(I'll stop rambling now)

Patrick99

Briefly, there is a pretty good reason for making them compulsory, if you're saying "Till death do us part." They are a church requirement, and not at all compulsory, for a civil wedding.

If you want to celebrate the Catholic sacrament of matrimony, the priest in charge of your wedding-documents (in the church where you are getting married) has a clear duty in church law to ensure, as far as he can, that you know the church's teaching about marriage, understand it as a vocation to a lifelong partnership of union, and are well-attuned about issues around communication, problem-solving and responsible family planning.
To simplify the parish priest's job in this regard, almost every Irish diocese has made it a regulation that before getting married in church, each couple must attend an approved pre-marriage course. (The Dublin diocese is the only one in Ireland not to enforce this regulation – but strongly commends marriage preparation just the same.) If when preparing a couple's marriage documents an individual priest chooses to ignore this regulation, and later that couple applies for an annulment, the priest will be held to account for neglecting to get them to do a marriage course. This may explain why almost all priests hold a pretty firm line on this issue.
Late last year the Irish bishops went a stage further, by issuing a fairly exacting set of standards to be met by pre-marriage courses. (see www.premarriage.ie/criteria.html) Not all of the pm-courses being advertised on the web currently fulfil all that is now required. Which is why a couple should CHECK WHICH COURSES ARE APPROVED by their priest before making a booking.

Best wishes, whatever you decide!
Fr Pat Rogers

Permabear

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