Drunkeness, violence and pub closing times

honkdub

with all this anti-drunk stuff in the public awareness at the mo
i get miffed when ever i see violence and drunkness related to the time pubs are closed at

I know we're not like the continent but they get to party all night if they want to...

the victim support group and the usi put out statements recently saying pub hours should be reduced or not extended beyond what they are now

i don't drink but i like to go out late when im going out-out
and i like to go clubbing

these groups do need to address the issue but focuing on things that actuall make a difference would help the time of pub closing mkaes no difference its attitude to drink etc that needs to be changed thats plain to see(how u do that is another question)

The Corinthian

Correlation does not necessary imply causation - just because there has been an increase in violence on the streets at night, coinciding with nightclubs being open longer, does not actually mean that the one has caused the other. Many other factors must be considered, including the change in drinking habits (the increase in consumption of so-called alcopops, for example), demographics and disposable incomes.

The culture of drinking in continental Europe is not as concentrated as it is in the UK and Ireland, where is appears to be central to the social scene. Drunken behaviour in southern Europe, for example, is often strongly frowned upon and the need for Dutch courage seen as a sign of character weakness. As a result, creating a parallel is not appropriate.

I personally favour longer hours, but that is also because I would have dinner before going out to socialize, and thus start late before drinking (a hybrid of the continental and Anglo-Irish models, I suppose ). But that’s just me and not everyone does that, especially those who start straight after work on a Friday.

It is probably important that the causes for this violence be further examined before any action is taken, otherwise we could well fail to deal with the root cause of the problem.

seamus

Originally posted by The Corinthian
It is probably important that the causes for this violence be further examined before any action is taken, otherwise we could well fail to deal with the root cause of the problem.

I'm inclined to agree. After a certain point, public drunkenness != public order offences. And late night opening != more public drunkenness.

If anything, pubs/clubs being open for longer helps curb the amount of public drunkenness. Simply from personal observation, people who have the intention of going to clubs tend to drink slower, so they're not completely locked by the time they're going to the club (myself included :rolleyes: ). People who aren't going to a club or who are going home for reasons of money, transport etc, tend to drink faster and get drunker. As regards myself, I'm usually a little more drunk, but less 'wahey! I'm drunk! let's go do mad stuff' at 2am than at 12am because of tiredness, etc.

It would seem to me that people are drinking more because of something rotten at the core of Irish society. Drinking does not cause people to become more violent, it simply removes their self-control over frustrations or violent tendancies that were already there. Crime had risen dramatically in Ireland recently. It's only to be expected that drink-related crime will also rise. IMO, this signals something very wrong with Irish society, and I can't see what it is, but it worries me. I'm basing this on what I've seen with my own friends. My best mate, niceest guy you'd ever meet. We started drinking together, at around 14/15, and neither of us have ever been in a fight in the city. We've certainly broke some up, or had guys try to start on us. Last September he started in 2nd year in art college, and suddenly he was a complete prick when drunk. I only saw this a month or two ago when one night a girl he doesn't get on with was winding him up. After that he bit the head off of everyone. Me, his girlfriend, and all his college mates. I was told that this had been going on since the start of the year, and he was always pissed off because the lecturers tell everyone, "you're ****, your art is ****, and you'll never amount to anything" (supposedly it makes better art :rolleyes: ).

This just illustrates for me that alcohol is only a catalyst for violence/disorder, not a cause. It's no use restricting opening times, or increasing taxes on drink. People will simply accomodate by drinking earlier and/or drinking at home. It's the social issues sitting in the background that need to be addressed.

(Sorry if this makes no sense, I was interrupted about 500 times while writing it)

swiss

I think this is more suited to humanities. I'll leave a (locked) copy of this thread here, so people can still view it, but if you want to continue it furthur, please take it there.

Personally, I feel that a lot of the alcohol related violence that we see is as a result of forcing large numbers of people onto the streets in the early hours of the morning. I feel that longer opening hours can help to alleviate the throngs that pile onto the streets in the early hours, and hence curb the level of violence which seems to be spiralling somewhat.

Like the Corinthian, I like to head out late, unless I decide to spend the afternoon in a pub with a few friends. Sometimes I don't go out until as late as midnight - 1am. While it is annoying to get kicked out at what I perceive to be a reasonably early time, I can understand the motives behind doing so. Unfortunately, some people are going to engage in loutish behaviour when they are drunk irrespective of what time they leave a given establishment. I think it would be best to allow easier dispersion of crowds (and hence reducing the occasions for serious muppetry) by lengthening opening hours.

All IMHO, of course.

Shinji

Talking about pub closing times as a key cause of this problem is nonsense - it's like Americans blaming videogames for people shooting each other in schools, it's a nice easy target that conveniently ignores the horrific social problems at the heart of the issue.

Ireland has a drink problem. As a nation, Ireland has a problem with alcoholism, with drunken violence, with underage binge drinking. For a nation of people who drink so much, we're pathetically bad at handling our drink in a sensible or mature way, or at acting like civilised human beings under the influence.

There are a lot of potential solutions to the problem, but they're all only partial solutions and what's needed is a serious package of measures. A larger police presence on major pub/club streets at night. A ban on certain types of drinks, specifically alcopops and Aftershock style pseudo-spirits. Encouragement of more alcohol-free drinks in pubs (those J20 juice drinks are a great idea). Tighter regulation of alcohol content in drinks. Cutting back on the bouncer "culture" seen in pubs and clubs in Dublin, which encourages people to arrive early and start drinking early, and not to leave the pub they're in all night. End provision of free medical care to people suffering from alcohol-related illness - you drink yourself silly and need your stomach pumped, fine, but you're getting a 300 euro bill for it in the post three days later. Let's see you take that risk again in such a hurry.

Overall, what really needs to happen is that a sense of social responsibility about booze is introduced - and that's a very very difficult thing to do. There's already a backlash against this kind of drinking though - I know a lot of people around my age who really don't like drinking in pubs in Ireland, and would prefer to drink a few beers at home with friends or whatever. That's not something which was the case even five years ago, as I recall it. And of course, Dublin is being the agent of its own downfall here; it's a city that still relies a lot on the tourist trade, but throughout Europe it's developing a reputation as an incredibly unpleasant place to go out at night. That's going to hurt publicans very badly in the pocket in the next few years.

MAC_E

I wouldnt like to see all pubs having to curb back on their opening hours. But if there was a system in place in which the pubs that are encouraging the irresponible use of drink and serving underage etc would be punished by having their opening hours cut, it could have the effect of bringing more responsibility to the pub itself. A sense of respnsibility on the part of our selfs the public is probably going to be harder to encourage though.

Kell

Besides my normal stance of "Legalise the weed and everything will be cool" I would tend to say that it's what we're drinking and not how much of it that is the problem. Pure conjecture, but I would like to see a report done into the escalation of random street violence and the introduction of Alcho pops on the market. Red Bull has a lot to answer for IMHO. A friend who is a farmer and knows his shít on animal extracts said that Red Bull shouldent actually be legal for some of the stuff that goes in there. Anway off topic a bit but heres an example.

I am normally a Guiness drinker, but one night last year, I head into town on the complete píss and drink JD & Coke all night. Now when I say JD and Coke I mean at least 25 of them (no exaggeration). Anyway, a normally calm natured reserved drinker that I am, gets arrested outside a club in Rathmines and it takes five cops to put me in a Police car (I weigh 10 stone and was handcuffed). My point is that the combination of a high sugar drink (Coke) and alchohal (JD) put me on such a sugar high I was on a different planet altogether whereas normally if a bouncer asked me to move on it would be a case of "no worries pal. Sorry".

Thats just an isolated incident but I could see how it would permeate given that most people I see in pubs these days are drinking an alchopop.

K-

Xterminator

I think pub opening hours should be extended further, rather than reduced.

I am convinced it is the culture of drinking too much, that inflames loutish behaviour, rather than people drinking at their own pace.
The whole last drinks call, encourages people to cram in as many drinks, in as short a time as possible.

Then all the pubs close at the same time, spilling these drunk people onto the streets in large no's.

Extending closing hours would avoid the last drinks rush, and cause people to leave the pub in there own good time, preventing the chaos that can bee seen in town on Saturday nights.

In fact if they removed all restriction on openein and closing hours and allowed market forces to decide whenm it was profitable to be open, it would help aviod this nonsence.

If you work unsocial hours, there is no reason why you should be prevented from going for a drink after hours, and the same goes for those who dont wish to observe religious holidays.

But current laws were framed when Ireland was less secular state, and when working hours for 99% of the population was 9-5.

X

Hairy Homer

Does anyone know where you can get statistics on: alcohol consumption, pricing and taxation throughout Europe?

I think they might be revealing. I bet we drink less alcohol in total than most Europeans (apart from the Scandinavians). And I bet our alcohol is the most expensive in Europe (apart from Scandinavia)

In Germany you can buy beer in a McDonald's. (Don't know whether it's part of a happy meal package yet but I wouldn't be surprised)

In France, a dinner table isn't set properly until the salt cellar, pepper canister and wine bottle are in place. Ditto in Italy or Spain.

Whereas in Dublin you can't have a beer with your pizza in most places. Why the fuck not? Because of our stupid licensing laws, heavily influenced by the vintners lobby which makes it prohibitively expensive in many cases for restaurants to obtain an appropriate alcohol license.

Our problem is not so much what we drink, but the way we drink. IE in binges 10 pints, or 10 alcopops, a night, once a week. Alcohol is a naughty treat, only to be used for getting so **** faced that you don't care what you say or do to whomever. Instead of an aid to digestion, merriment, good conversation and a healthy heart—all of which it DOES do when consumed in moderation.

It's our own fault. It's what we tolerate. We allow the publicans effectively to dictate where and how we drink. We create emporia where the sole purpose is to get pissed (when was the last time you saw a pub in dublin with say a pool table or a darts board 'Ah now here if we did that they'd only kill each other with the cues' )

Some people say that pubs should diversify into offering a wider range of services. Hear bloody hear. But what about other outlets offering alcohol as part of what they do? Why can't I have a beer with my Big Mac? Or with my pizza? For Christ's sake, they've even stopped selling beer at the Heineken Cup rugby matches (Heinken? That's a dairy, right?) at Donnybrook thanks to the moral panic about teenagers at the neighbouring disco getting sloshed in the car park.

So the way forward:

1) Halve the taxation on alcohol- will encourage the moderate drinking of alcohol as a normal activity, will lead to increased sales, less drunkenness and a more pleasant social environment without any loss to the exchequer. Trust me. This will work.

2) Liberalise the licensing laws to allow any reasonable outlet sell alcohol in a responsible manner ie do to the publicans what we did to the taxi drivers

3) Don't vote for ANY politician who thinks the answer is earlier closing or MORE taxation. We've tried that and it doesn't work.

4) Clamp down HARD on public order offenses.
eg Urinating in public:- two weeks on street sweeping detail without the option to pay a fine - ditto for vomiting on David Norris's doorstep;
beating the shte out of some inoffensive librarian at 2am on Grafton St:- 10 years hard labour;
Killing someone while drunk in charge of a car:- life without parole.

Gasp! I'll get off the hobby horse.

Oh. Full disclosure. I have no connection with the catering or entertainment trades. My interest is only as a consumer.

MiCr0

from a conversation i had last night @ home


i'd be in favour of increasing the tax on alcohol and reducing it on soft drinks

its obscene the cost of softdrinks - its cheaper to get a pint of beer in a bar that to get a pint of coke... that just isn't right.

i wouldn't blame publicans either - its their job and business to sell as much as possible as often as possible.
if some one wants to order 4 shots of vodka with a bottle of alco-pop and redbull mixer (as i saw some one do on friday) then how can they loose?

i do think its individuals fault - they choose and they buy the drinks.
i think too many people drink to excess waaaaay to much.

How many of you have heard this:
"Good night last night?"
"Yes - it was brilliant - but i can't remember anything after 1am"

kamobe

It's absolutely amazing that I've managed to make it home every Saturday night\Sunday morning without viscously assaulting a random passer buy. Obviously I have some immunity to the rage alcohol clearly infects consumers with....

Or perhaps a scumbag will always just be a scumbag.

rubadub

"A ban on certain types of drinks, specifically alcopops and Aftershock style pseudo-spirits."
what are pseudo-spirits??? would you ban triple sec and cointreau too as they are the same strength?

"Encouragement of more alcohol-free drinks in pubs (those J20 juice drinks are a great idea)."
in most pubs soft drinks are more expensive than beer. the government obviously still doesnt care about trying to curb drink driving by making it cheap for a designated driver. a while back they talked about reducing tax or subsidising soft drinks, nothing happened. 2litres of coke in tesco is €1.30, 2 litres in my local is €27! this also encourages people to use tiny amounts of mixers in their spirits causing more drunkeness. most of my mates use one redbull/coke to 4 or even 6 vodkas.

did the 24hr drinking laws come into effect in the UK yet? does anybody know if public drunkeness decreased due to this? many rightly predicted the longer opening hours would lead to more public disorder. the ignorant policitians let them open longer with the idea "we'll see if there is more violence before we go fully to 24hr", fools. when on holidays in spain/ibiza etc where many young people go with the intention of getting destroyed there is not much trouble due to the late opening hours. if it was 24hr there would be no last order rush. many would stop drinking a good while before leaving the pub. many go home when tired as opposed to here where people leave fully tanked up with a few last order shots still waiting to take effect. i like to start early on a sunday so i can get a decent sleep, i start about 1pm and slow down about 5pm and am home by 7 or 9pm when starting to sober up. drinking hours only came in because of world war 1, the war is over now but it seems they still havent gotten around to realising this and scrapping the ridiculous law. it is also not fair on people who choose to live/sleep by different hours than what the government "recommends" or determines to be "normal". pubs should be allowed to open and close whenever they want just like the local shop.

Wook

Originally posted by Xterminator
I think pub opening hours should be extended further, rather than reduced.

I am convinced it is the culture of drinking too much, that inflames loutish behaviour, rather than people drinking at their own pace.
The whole last drinks call, encourages people to cram in as many drinks, in as short a time as possible.

Then all the pubs close at the same time, spilling these drunk people onto the streets in large no's.

Extending closing hours would avoid the last drinks rush, and cause people to leave the pub in there own good time, preventing the chaos that can bee seen in town on Saturday nights.

In fact if they removed all restriction on openein and closing hours and allowed market forces to decide whenm it was profitable to be open, it would help aviod this nonsence.

If you work unsocial hours, there is no reason why you should be prevented from going for a drink after hours, and the same goes for those who dont wish to observe religious holidays.

But current laws were framed when Ireland was less secular state, and when working hours for 99% of the population was 9-5.

X

thats the way it happends in Belgium, we have drunk related problems but often people would just drink to socialize not to get drunk.

Imposter

Firstly, I have to agree with those who want longer opening hours. Telling adults when to go home is wrong. It would also mean not as many people on the streets at any one time and the chance of getting a taxi a little quicker!

Reducing the tax on soft drinks will do nothing. Soft drinks make as much if not more profit for a publican. The trouble (in the publican's eyes) is that people cannot drink as many soft drinks as alcoholic ones.

Making the pubs and other outlets responsible when people are out of control because of too much alcohol will help. Perhaps removing a pubs licence for a week would do some good if they are found guilty of selling alcohol to someone already out of control. The same for premises that will not give someone a glass of tapwater, serves underage drinkers!

Allowing alcohol to be sold in all food outlets, cafes etc is a good idea. People should be able to wine or beer with food.

Taxing spirits and making alcopops and shots like aftershock illegal would also help greatly.

Some of the above steps may encourage people to drink slower and thus not get as drunk. If drink were freely available in other outlets it might force publicans to be a bit more price and consumer friendly.

Also reducing the legal age to 16 for beer and wine might help. Raising it to 21 for spirits. That way those who would normally be knacker drinking would be visible to a responsible adult (see above). That to me is a surely better option than what currently exists!

Just my 2 cents.

rubadub

Originally posted by Imposter
Reducing the tax on soft drinks will do nothing. Soft drinks make as much if not more profit for a publican. The trouble (in the publican's eyes) is that people cannot drink as many soft drinks as alcoholic ones.

Taxing spirits and making alcopops and shots like aftershock illegal would also help greatly.

if soft drinks were cheaper people wouldnt drink as much vodka with such a small amount of mixer, drinking spirits quickly leads to blackouts very easily. most violence is by people in blackouts

what have you people got against aftershock? i personally hate the stuff. and it cost a fortune in the off licence for absolutely no reason. some people think it is a magical drink that gets you pissed more than others but it is only 40%. would you tax cointreau differently?

Kell

Heres one that I thought of as well. Ban alchohal advertising and alchohal sponsored events in the same way that smoking adverts were banned and so too were smoking sponsored events.

For a country so hellbent on getting people to quit smoking, why then is there an advert for "Insert choice of alchohal" on the TV every five minutes? Is it a case of "We dont want you to fúck yourself up with cigarrettes, but drinking yourself into oblivion is fine".

FFS sake, even chewing gum and breath freshener adverts are now set in pubs. That get your twinkle out and 24/7 breath freshener are two for a start but I am sure there are more.

I would actually like to see a ban on all alchopops and people returning to regular beers, spirits whatever. Hang on a second and I'll get my tweed jacket.

rubadub

there is talk already about stopping alcohol advertising. they want over 21 or even 23 in nightclubs too

Calibos

Originally posted by kamobe
It's absolutely amazing that I've managed to make it home every Saturday night\Sunday morning without viscously assaulting a random passer buy. Obviously I have some immunity to the rage alcohol clearly infects consumers with....

Or perhaps a scumbag will always just be a scumbag.

I totally agree. I think the incident on Grafton street was the exception rather than the rule. What I mean is that although in this case the viscious b*stards were middle class Tennis Playing scumbags, invariably this type of incident is perpetrated by knackers/scangers etc. They are already scum and whereas during the day when they are sober they only give you a few digs for 'luke-in ah dem', at night you get knifed, bottled or your head kicked in for the same 'offence'.

The issue isn't drink or pub opening hours etc its how do we stop people becoming scumbags with their lack of respect for the law, themselves or anyone else and what do we do with the scumbags we have right now.........Oh yeah silly me....Give them the probation act 57 times and when you finally give them a sentance which is too short and an insult to the victim, you let them out after 4 weeks.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Calibos

Call me the 'ThreadKiller':D I seem to have this uncanny nack of killing treads of late on this and any other forum I frequent.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

sceptre

Originally posted by Imposter
Firstly, I have to agree with those who want longer opening hours. Telling adults when to go home is wrong.

Technically of course, they're not telling you to go home. They're telling you to get the hell out of the bar.

rubadub

Originally posted by sceptre
Technically of course, they're not telling you to go home. They're telling you to get the hell out of the bar.

yep, its the gardai who tell you to go home when tehy see you on the streets with nowhere to go AKA loitering!

Imposter

Originally posted by rubadub
yep, its the gardai who tell you to go home when tehy see you on the streets with nowhere to go AKA loitering!

And I suppose at that time of night it's best to agree with them (gardai) and not start a discussion about why all the taxis have dissapeared in the last 10 minutes and how it'd be quicker to start queuing for breakfast rather than try and get chips anywhere!

RampagingBadger

I think there is a correllation between the pub closing times and the violence but I don't think the solution is to bring back the closing time changes. From what I see the major problem with the closing times in this country is that they're all at the same time. Of course there's going to be trouble if every drunk in Dublin is turfed out of his/her respective watering hole at the exact same time. A simple solution to this would be to operate a system whereby all pubs/clubs were allowed to set their own closing/opening times. That way rather than a flood of incapacitated drunkards hitting the street at the same time we'd have a steady trickle. I also think the way the streets are patrolled by the gardai would has an effect. A more visible Garda presence would doubtless curb street violence at any time. :rolleyes:

leeroybrown

I'd like to see a gentle relaxation of opening hours over a period of time. As it is there is a culture where people rush out to the pub as they feel as if they'll be kicked out too early.

i'd be in favour of increasing the tax on alcohol and reducing it on soft drinks

Taxation on alcohol in this country is very high. The government relies on it for a sizable proportion of it's revenue. Top this off with licencing laws that are very favourable towards publicans. (THe vintners association are the strongest lobby group in the Dáil).

Soft drinks in pubs are some of the highest profit margin items. Mixers (the small tonic's, etc) are the single highest profit margin item followed closely by the massively overpriced soft drinks. It's not a tax issue, it's just the prices that are charged.

I find that when I'm not having an alcoholic drink there aren't many options available that you can drink over an extended period. (And thats before you even consider the cost)

When I am actually drinking alcohol (with WeissBier and Good Whiskey being my drin ks of choice) I always pick what you could term "alternative venues". I prefer to avoid the "superpubs", their atmosphere and the people who inhabit them to a certain degree, preferring to enjoy conversation and a pint in a comfortable location.

John2002

I agree with a lot of what's been said above.

IMHO pubs/clubs should be allowed stay open as late as they like. This would prevent the throngs of people pouring on to the streets at the same time. There would be more taxi's free (so less hanging around the streets) if this was the case, and taxi ranks are notorious places for violence (in Limerick anyway, I've seen countless fights.) I would assume it's the same country-wide.

Longer opening hours would mean that people would not be swamping their drinks at the end of the night in order to get p1ssed. I've often found that I've been relatively sober until the end when I've had to drink up quickly and all of a sudden I'm on my ear.

I also believe that certain drinks should be banned. 'Alcopops' are drinks designed for kids. The encourage people, who generally, I believe, wouldn't be able to stomach beer etc, to drink. Many of my friends (myself not included) often drink these in clubs etc when they find that they can't drink more beer. Hence you have people basically drinking beyond their capabilities and not really knowing it cos the stuff tastes like fruit juice.

Red Bull and other stimulant drinks should also be banned imo. Stimulants should not be mixed with depressants because they are a recipe for trouble. Vodka and red bull used make me turn from a happy, merry drunk, in to a raging psycho who my friends used have to follow around keeping out of trouble. Luckily I stopped drinking that before I got in to any real hassle but not before a few near misses. I wouldn't touch the stuff any more after seeing the effects on me and others around me.

Captain Trips

Originally posted by leeroybrown

I find that when I'm not having an alcoholic drink there aren't many options available that you can drink over an extended period. (And thats before you even consider the cost)

What about non-alcoholic beer? I actually find it's quite enjoyable and not as strong as say, the sugary drinks. E.g., Becks, Erdinger make v. good non-C2H5OH stuff. Or, it's minimal content (you'd need around 15 or more to be equivalent to a single regular beer).

It's a good alternative when driving.

Or am I the only mad person who actually likes the taste of beer! ARGH!

The country should just go 24hr suddenly. It'd be a few weeks of chaos, but then, you'd maybe head into town to go a to a club at 1am. Maybe drinks in your house, etc., . All very civilised. Of course, you'd get the usual lot who'd try and keep drinking, but they'd probably kill themselves off.

Kell

Originally posted by rubadub
there is talk already about stopping alcohol advertising. they want over 21 or even 23 in nightclubs too

I dont know if the 21-23 nightclubs would work though in light of the equal status bill. Who is behind having older age group clubs as from what I gather from the equal status bill is that if your 18 and can prove it, not pished, not stoned or off your head on drug of choice, then pubs/clubs etc have no way to prevent you from coming in.

K-

Captain Trips

Yeah but may late 20s and early 30 s people don't want to be in a place with teenagers?

Trebor

Originally posted by Kell
I dont know if the 21-23 nightclubs would work though in light of the equal status bill. Who is behind having older age group clubs as from what I gather from the equal status bill is that if your 18 and can prove it, not pished, not stoned or off your head on drug of choice, then pubs/clubs etc have no way to prevent you from coming in.

K-

"The managment have the right to refuse admission" above the door way and they can do anything, it is a privatly owned bar they can refuse who they like but they can't use "only 21's tonight lads" as the excuse. usually it's now "regulars only"