French antiwar protesters attack other antiwar protesters because they are Jewish

BattleBoar

LINK HERE


Ah the French, what a principled, moral people...



Jews attacked in French anti-war protests
By Kim Willsher in Paris
(Filed: 06/04/2003)


Street protests against American and British military action in Iraq have escalated into attacks by Muslim youths on Jewish demonstrators, sparking fears of a new wave of anti-Semitism across France.

The French government was forced to appeal for calm after protesters, some of them carrying pictures of Saddam Hussein, burnt the Israeli flag and turned on Jewish students, attacking one of them with an iron bar, during a series of anti-war rallies.

Officials fear that anti-war sentiment, supported by President Jacques Chirac, may be running out of control and could ignite widespread violence. Banners at recent demonstrations have shown the Star of David intertwined with a Nazi swastika, while protesters shouted "Vive Chirac! Stop the Jews".

In response, French police have announced the formation of a new unit to investigate "racist and anti-Semitic crimes", and stepped-up protection for synagogues and Jewish schools.

Jean-Paul Proust, the head of the Paris Prefecture of Police, promised the new unit would "systematically follow up all complaints".

President Chirac, whose bitter opposition to the United States-led military offensive in Iraq has won him almost universal support in France, has remained silent on the attacks, but his prime minister, Jean-Pierre Raffarin, sought to rein in public sentiment, saying that people should "not choose the wrong enemy".

Nicolas Sarkozy, the interior minister, also warned demonstrators not to use the war in Iraq as an excuse for violence. "Whether it is a case of French Muslims or French Jews, each has the right to pray, believe and live his faith as he sees fit," he said.

Public passions have been fuelled by anti-war rhetoric in the French media, which has concentrated on civilian casualties and highlighted setbacks suffered by the coalition forces.

An opinion poll in the newspaper Le Monde found that almost a third of French people wanted Saddam to win the war. Only 53 per cent wanted the Anglo-American forces to triumph.

The fears of increased anti-Semitism come only a month after the French foreign minister Dominique de Villepin allegedly told a group of centre-Right MPs that "the hawks in the US administration are in the hands of [Ariel] Sharon".

At a private meeting, Mr Villepin referred scathingly to the "pro-Zionist" lobby, including Paul Wolfowitz, America's deputy defence secretary, Richard Perle, who recently resigned as chairman of President Bush's defence policy review board, and Elliot Abrams, the head of the National Security Council, according to the weekly satirical magazine Le Canard Enchaine.

In his attempt to redress the balance, Mr Raffarin said last week: "We believe that this war was a bad choice - but the Americans are not our enemies. Being against the war does not mean that we want dictatorship to triumph over democracy. Our camp is the camp of democracy."

A government official admitted to concern about increasing tensions, particularly in the banlieus, the sprawling suburbs of France's main cities. In these areas of high immigration, police report a growing amount of anti-US, anti-British and anti-Jewish graffiti.

The official said: "It would only take a spark for this hostility to feed into uncontrolled forms of violence." Last week vandals defaced a memorial at a British First World War cemetery in northern France, daubing a demand that Britain "dig up its rubbish which is contaminating our soil" alongside a swastika.

Meanwhile, staff at the British Embassy in Paris have been advised to "play down our Britishness" after several reported being harassed.

At a security briefing they were told to avoid speaking English in sensitive situations, to avoid directing taxis to the embassy building in the rue Faubourg St Honore and to change their diplomatic car plates. The ambassador, Sir John Holmes, has been given extra French police protection.

Noam Levy, a 24-year-old French Jew, was beaten with an iron bar as he took part in a Paris protest and needed several stitches to his head. "As a Jew, I now know that I do not have a place in the anti-war protests," he said. "I was shocked by the comparison of the state of Israel to the Nazis and by anti-Zionist slogans."

The National Consultative Committee on Human Rights said that acts of violence against Jews and Jewish property in France had increased six times in 2002.

BattleBoar

This was posted in Humanities, but Devore said it should go in Politics....my apologies...

Samba

Ah the French, what a principled, moral people...

attacks by Muslim youths on Jewish demonstrators

Baby Jesus is crying as he does not like sweeping and unfounded generalisations!

BattleBoar

Originally posted by Samba
Baby Jesus is crying as he does not like sweeping and unfounded generalisations!

LOL. Well, based on what I know, I feel very comforatable with my generalization. The French seem to care about stopping the burning synagogues about as much as the KKK in the southern US cared about stopping the burning of black churches.

Violent hate crimes in France now is 4x what it was a year ago, the majority of which are of course against Jews. And, even though this specific attack was filmed, it got practically no media coverage and the organizers and attendees of the protest, including socialist prime minister Laurent Fabius, a Green Party presidential candidate, Noel Mamere, and socialist party leader Francois Hollande, wouldn't even condemn it until they got a visit from the mayor.

Sand

To be honest, do you expect much better from the French? - these lads pollute their own rivers and set trucks full of livestock on fire in protests and theyre allowed to get away with it.

Good thing Im not running the US, or itd be a case of first Baghdad, then Paris:D

Regarding the fact that anti-war protestors were taking lumps out of each other for whatever reason it just demonstrates how irrelevant the protestors are as some sort of barometer of public opinion - some of them are there on a principled anti war stance, others are there in support of Saddam as a "leader" of an arab nation attacked by the infidel trying to bring them democracy and legal rights - damn them!!!

shotamoose

Originally posted by BattleBoar
LOL. Well, based on what I know, I feel very comforatable with my generalization. The French seem to care about stopping the burning synagogues about as much as the KKK in the southern US cared about stopping the burning of black churches.

Did you miss the bit in your own post where it said that "In response, French police have announced the formation of a new unit to investigate "racist and anti-Semitic crimes", and stepped-up protection for synagogues and Jewish schools."

To be honest, do you expect much better from the French? - these lads pollute their own rivers and set trucks full of livestock on fire in protests and theyre allowed to get away with it.

Good thing Im not running the US, or itd be a case of first Baghdad, then Paris:D

Jeebus. Funny how the people who squeal so loudly about 'Anti-Americanism' think nothing of dismissing a whole nation of people as racists worthy of being bombed. What complete hypocrisy.

lili

yes, the frenchies eat little kids, they beat the women, the worst is that they don't eat ketchup. frankly guys, don't come in france, you will be in big danger!

seriously, what has happened is unacceptable! but it's the fact of racist people and don't represente the french nation or the french anti-war.
there is a lot of jewish people living in paris and i don't think they are unhappy to live here.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by BattleBoar
LOL. Well, based on what I know, I feel very comforatable with my generalization.

I assume you’re comfortable with being a racist bigot too.

Originally posted by Sand
Good thing Im not running the US, or itd be a case of first Baghdad, then Paris

Unless you are a US citizen, you’re not and you never will. Neither would you be enfranchised to influence US policies in any democratic manner.

Samba

Battleboar, are you American? noticed your spelling of generalization

Well, based on what I know, I feel very comforatable with my generalization. The French seem to care about stopping the burning synagogues about as much as the KKK in the southern US cared about stopping the burning of black churches.

Mmm, they are doing nothing about it, they are just going to sit back and see what happens:rolleyes:

You see this is where my problem with your statement is, you say French, whereby the incident involved Muslims who are abundant in France as they are in the U.K, the majority of the younger generation of Arab people living in France do have French citizenship but 90% of the time their parents were not actually born in France. You claim them to be French with no thought of other underlying issues which are present in the Country.


One of them being that their has always been tension between native French and French Arab immigrants and this is still present today as was clearly illustrated by this incident.


Many Arabs who I know in France do not consider themselves French and have retained nationality of their originating Country as many of them hate France and it's governing policies, but they are there due to their parents decision to try and look for a better life.

To be honest, do you expect much better from the French?

I am French Sand, what are you implying? while I do not agree with such conduct which you made examples of, what you have to understand is that throughout history French protests have always been on the extreme side, if they are not happy about a certain policy or actions for example the government try to impose on them, they stamp their feet and guess what, it works most of the time and they get what they want.

By what comparisons are you going by? because if you are by any, then it is pointless in doing so because each nation have their own ways in dealing with things, if you look at it and make an opinion based through your culture you are going to be quite blinded by your own Culture.

Well, based on what I know, I feel very comforatable with my generalization.

It is quite clear to me that you know very little on this issue or you would have at least taken the above in to consideration before making your sweeping generalisations.

Anyone can read a news article and make statements based on opinions formed from these articles and claim to have knowledge on the matters
[humour]
The Americans are especially good at this [humour]

Even in that article they wisely do not refer to the people in question as French, but as French Muslims, because there is a big difference and divide amongst the French and French immigrant Muslims residing in France.

*note- while this is not the case with all French muslims it is with alot of them and to some extent they have just cause to be angry with the French due to various reasons(another topic needed for this one)

bonkey

Originally posted by BattleBoar
Violent hate crimes in France now is 4x what it was a year ago, the majority of which are of course against Jews.

And would it be surprising to know that the following statement is also true :

Violent hate crims in France now is 4x what it was a year ago, the majority are of course by Muslim youths.

You're still making a massive generalisation by claiming that this is "the French", considering that the vast majority of the people perpetrating these crimes are relatively recent immigrants who are firmly maintaining their individual cultural identity.

jc

mike65

Polling shows how many French are actively hoping that Saddan wins, while they deface war graves of the British and US. Whatsmore it all smackes of oppotunism, nothing to do with principle. At least the government has issued statements condeming such behaviour.

Mike.

BattleBoar

Bonkey - notice I didn't say the average French were the ones perpetrating these acts, I said the average French don't care, IMO.

Samba - Yes, have previously stated such

Corinthian - Racist against who? The French? I personally don't consider the French a specific "race", although I suppose they could be characterized as such.

Shotamoose - no, I didn't miss it...read below


Here are relevant quotes lifted from an Article in Insight, a weekly mag of the washington times:

And so it went for nearly 18 months. The Representative Council of French Jewry (CRIF) has catalogued more than 1,000 violent threats against Jews and overt anti-Semitic acts. During the last three months of 2000 alone, physical violence included 44 firebombings, 43 attacks on synagogues and 39 assaults on Jews as they were leaving places of worship. And yet, for all of it, the French police made just a few dozen arrests.

An Interior Ministry report late last year concluded that the violence was the work of "petty criminals," not anti-Semites. "There was no rejection of the Jew," the author of the report, Khadija Mohsen-Finan, told the New York Times after interviewing nearly 500 young Muslims. "So far, the number of incidents has been small." French Jews were merely overreacting, she added, echoing public statements by leading Socialist politicians. "Are there verbal attacks? Sure. But that goes both ways," she said.

The "verbal attacks" Mohsen-Finan dismissed as "inconsequential" included such incidents as bands of young Muslim youths gathering in front of synagogues as Jewish worshippers emerged, chanting "death to the Jews." They also included anti-Jewish graffiti painted on the doors of Jews living in suburban housing complexes, bottles thrown from balconies at Jews leaving synagogues, insults shouted at Jews in the subway and on city streets and physical attacks against Jewish youths playing soccer at public fields.

This spring violence against French Jews reached new heights. Major synagogues were burned in Paris, Marseilles, Lyons and Strasbourg, and Jews regularly were attacked in the streets. When the French government still did nothing to quell the violence, the Wiesenthal Center issued a travel advisory warning American Jews against traveling to France. The American Jewish Congress (AJC) took out full-page advertisements in newspapers urging U.S. filmmakers and distributors to boycott the Cannes Film Festival. Chirac, in the middle of what at first appeared to be a difficult re-election campaign, furiously protested that France was not anti-Semitic.

"President Chirac was upset," AJC President Jack Rosen told Insight in an interview during a recent trip to Paris, where he was visiting again with French officials. "He and others in the French government realized that the public scrutiny exposed them and that they needed to react." Steps were taken after the presidential election to deploy 1,200 riot troops to protect synagogues and other Jewish institutions.

In other words, the French govt became upset only after receiving very negative media. Would they ever have taken action if not for the AJC? Of course, this is total speculation. My opinion is no.

A senior Israeli official who deals regularly with European governments warned that the wave of anti-Semitic attacks in France was not just the work of troubled Arab youths. "There are those in the French government who permit these acts to occur, who create an atmosphere of tolerance toward anti-Semitic acts," he said.

Retired Gen. Michel Darmon heads the France-Israel Association. He places the blame for the attacks squarely on Socialist officials such as former foreign minister Vedrine. "The French Foreign Ministry is not just anti-Israel, but anti-Semitic," he tells Insight. "France has a crushing responsibility for continuing the Middle East conflict, because they actively encourage the Arabs to the worst forms of anti-Semitism. The French message is that hate speech is legitimate."

Of course I would expect the Israelis to vehemently disagree with the French based on the French very vocally disagreeing with Israel policy. Still, I believe there is a strong element of truth to this because of the supporting evidence.

Thierry Keller is the treasurer of SOS Racism, a left-wing group seeking dialogue between Jewish youth groups and second-generation Arab immigrants, or beurs. Keller agrees that French anti-Semitism did not die with Adolf Hitler and Marshal Philippe PÈtain. "The fact that young beurs are carrying out these attacks is very convenient for the anti-Semitic Catholic elites. The beurs are inadvertently doing their dirty work for them," he says. Keller was brought up Catholic.

"Anti-Semitism is re-emerging because the old taboos against attacking Jews in public have been lifted. This legitimizes those who make intellectual arguments against Jews and makes it an open season for Holocaust denial and anti-Semitic attacks," Keller says.

Since late March, another senior French official tells Insight, new instructions have been given to courts and state prosecutors to crack down on those found guilty of anti-Semitic violence. A detailed compilation of these cases, made available by the official, shows 41 separate prosecutions between March 30 and July 2. In most cases, however, those found guilty of anti-Semitic violence received suspended prison sentences or probation, or were simply let go.

Many of the individuals caught firebombing synagogues in April still are awaiting trial. How they are treated by the French courts will provide the best yardstick for judging the sincerity of Prime Minister Raffarin's pledge to crack down on an anti-Semitic violence that has been tolerated for 18 months by the French political establishment from right to left.

But the latest statements by Chirac (who also refused a U.S. request to include the Iranian-backed Hezbollah in Lebanon on the list of international terrorist groups) augur poorly. Said Rosen, "For Chirac to say that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization because they have social programs is tantamount to saying that Hitler's Nazi regime wasn't all that bad because they also had social programs."

So a French official, once again responding to criticism, says they are cracking down, yet in the year since this article was written, the violence has increased 4 fold.

I'm not accusing the average French of perpetrating violence or even actively supporting it, I'm simply accusing them their government of not caring. I am also not surprised. I wouldn't go so far as to bomb them like Sand, because I personally don't believe in interventionism, but I have no problems with condemning them for their lack of action.

Von

Originally posted by Sand
Good thing Im not running the US, or itd be a case of first Baghdad, then Paris:D

If you were in charge of the US, we'd have about 7 consecutive world wars to look forward to, then when everyone's dead, you'd probably try to get the surviving vegetation fighting with itself. I dunno what your beef with the French is exactly. You're opposed to a multicultural/multiracial Ireland are you not? Just as a significant number of French people are opposed to a multicultural/multiracial France. Mainly because they're FN supporting foreigner haters. So you do have something in conmon with at least some French people after all.

Incidentally, Daniel Cohn-Bendit, leader of the French Greens, a jew, and one of the main people behind the Paris 1968 events had a debate recently with Richard Perle (who is also jewish I think) about the war. Link here. Perle lies a lot. Cohn-Bendit accuses the US of "revolutionary hubris".

"But recently, your government has been behaving like the Bolsheviks in the Russian Revolution. You want to change the whole world! Like them, you claim that history will show that truth is on your side. You want the world to follow the American dream, and you believe that you know what is best for Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Africa, Liberia, Yemen, and all other countries. Like every revolutionary, you have good ideas, but your problem lies in the means you want to use to realize them. Suddenly you want to bring democracy to the world, starting with Iraq."

Sand

Jeebus. Funny how the people who squeal so loudly about 'Anti-Americanism' think nothing of dismissing a whole nation of people as racists worthy of being bombed. What complete hypocrisy.

Ssssh Shot. Dont you know theres no such thing as anti-americanism?:)

Unless you are a US citizen, you’re not and you never will. Neither would you be enfranchised to influence US policies in any democratic manner.

Wow! Really?

yes, the frenchies eat little kids, they beat the women, the worst is that they don't eat ketchup. frankly guys, don't come in france, you will be in big danger!

Ive been to France, its where a lot of my dislike of the place and the people comes from:|

I am French Sand, what are you implying? while I do not agree with such conduct which you made examples of, what you have to understand is that throughout history French protests have always been on the extreme side, if they are not happy about a certain policy or actions for example the government try to impose on them, they stamp their feet and guess what, it works most of the time and they get what they want.

Im glad then its worth the needless suffering of animals or that its worth polluting their own waterways. People who carry out such acts and a culture which tolerates it is not admirable to say the least. And from what Battleboar is showing it seems its a culture that tolerates perhaps too much.

I dunno what your beef with the French is exactly.

Visit France and bask in their warm friendly nature Von:|

You're opposed to a multicultural/multiracial Ireland are you not? Just as a significant number of French people are opposed to a multicultural/multiracial France. Mainly because they're FN supporting foreigner haters. So you do have something in conmon with at least some French people after all.

Look at what Samba and Bonkey are doing- differentiating between French people and French Muslims and French Jews. Whilst left wingers have a nice hippy dream about everyone coming together and making daisy chains in the sunshine the reality - as shown by the hate crimes in France is very different. Do I want a situation where we have "real" Irish and "other" Irish? Christ no - I think we have had enough on our plate with Catholic/Republican/Gaelic Irish and Protestant/Unionist/British Irish, dont you? Oh yay- the joys of multiculturalism:|

When people dont have to explain social tensions between French people because one group of them are actually not French but rather French citizens who are Muslim, whereas the others arent French either but rather French citizens who are Jewish then there wont be a problem, but then it wont be multicultural either, will it:|

But dont worry your little head with such problems Von - because, multiculturalism is all good isnt it - its got loads of fluffy, vague undefined benefits and the problems - well theyre there but they *shouldnt* be there so lets just ignore them or call them horrid names and hope they go away. Grand so, sunshine.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sand
Wow! Really?

Yes. However, the point I made was obliviously not as evident (to you at least) as I had hoped.

As I said, assuming you’re not a US citizen, you do not and never will run the US. Neither are you or will you be enfranchised to influence US policies in any democratic manner. So if you disagree with a US policy, there’s frankly nothing you can do about it. And if that policy involves how you, your nation and your freedom will be defined for you, there will still be frankly nothing you can do about it.

The point is one of national self-determination, for good or for ill.

Ive been to France, its where a lot of my dislike of the place and the people comes from:|

Maybe it was just you Sand.

When people dont have to explain social tensions between French people because one group of them are actually not French but rather French citizens who are Muslim, whereas the others arent French either but rather French citizens who are Jewish then there wont be a problem, but then it wont be multicultural either, will it:|

Where multiculturalism goes wrong, and this has been debated here in the past, is where the other culture retains too much independence from the entire whole. This can result with a conflict of interests, and certainly should not be either encouraged or tolerated. This does not happen in all cases, it should also be noted.

But that is a different topic, and one that few states could claim to be immune from, whether from French Muslims favouring Arab nationalism over their fellow French (Jewish) citizens or Jewish-American lobby groups, favouring Israeli interests over those of their fellow citizens.

bonkey

Originally posted by The Sand
Look at what Samba and Bonkey are doing- differentiating between French people and French Muslims and French Jews.

Thats not what I did at all.

What I did was a small amount of research, and learned that the fact is that these crimes are being widely perpetrated by either first-generation immigrants, or (as someone else pointed out) children of immigrants, where the parent has citizenship, but not necessarily the child.

I simply pointed out that one can identify a clearly delineated social sub-group who is responsible for these crimes - just as (gasp, shock, horror) on can identify that those crimes have been clearly racist in nature, as there is a clearly delineated target group as well.

What would you prefer I do Sand? Apply the sweeping logic that "all French are violent criminals" as you seem to have applied your "there [sic] arrogant, snotty, unfriendly and plain rude glory" to them?

The simple fact is that there is a problem in France which is highly sensitive. You have a significant Muslim population, a large proportion of which is first-generation French, and which refuses to integrate into French society and accept the French ideals.

The problem is of such a nature that the police are swamped. Unless you'd advocate a police-state, there's no hope of implementing adequate policing....just a hope that rational heads can find a solution to the problem.

Interestingly, I notice that people are too busy blaming the French people and so on for having a police force that utterly swamped by this upsurge in violence (much of which is apparently in reaction to the increased levels of violence exercised by Israel in its "policing) to actually tell us how the problem should be resolved.

I'd love to hear the suggestions. Honestly. Armchair critics are all well and good, but if you're so quick to tell us whats wrong, then maybe you could all tell us how it should be fixed?

Ive been to France, its where a lot of my dislike of the place and the people comes from:|

I'm curious. Do you actually speak French, or did you base your opinion on the willingness and ability of the people you met to speak your language in their country?

I know you have friends who were thereand hate it too - cause we've covered that much of this before (like with arts students, you seem in capable of passing a French reference without lobbing an insult), but I'm just trying to figure out how you and your mates could come away with such a slanted notion.

jc

Hobbes

as I pointed out in the other thread, there are only three sites on the whole internet that have run this story. Not one was French, which despite what people may think actually do report stuff about thier own country.

There was also supposed to be a news crew there interviewing him when the attack took place. Although I was unable to find the name of the news station or what they were interviewing him about when he was at a supposed peace rally.

That's not to say it didn't happen but normally there is a lot more news on various sites, and I'd like to see what prompted a group to attack a person in front of a TV crew.

... actually I have found more stories but they seem to differ in what happended.

- One is where he was attacked himself at a peace rally
- another in front of a TV crew while at a peace rally
- another where he was taking pictures when attacked.
- another where he was taking pictures and stepped in to help someone else getting attacked.

HFXOC

I am sick to my back teeth of listening to Pro American Pro Israeli apologists venting their spleen on message boards like this. They roar ignorantly about Muslim fundamentalism this and Muslim fundamentalism as if this is the root cause of all the woes of the Middle east and the worls for that matter.

The bottom line is that US foreign policy prticularly with respect to Palestine is morally corrupt. Until such a time as that US politicians arent worried about the 'Jewish' vote in New York then the conflioct in the middle east will continue. The US vetoes every resolution of the UN with regard to Israel. They give them billions of $ every year to underpin the brutal unaccountable Israeli military and turn a blind eye to the acts of murderous criminality perpetrated against the Palestinians by the Israelis yet reserve the strongest invective and condemnation for suicide bombers.

Until such a time as observers speak and write in as equal a perjorative way about Christian fundamentalist and Israeli fundamentalists the whole issue is stagnant.

Perhaps Battleboar and his ilk should comment more about the Christian Crusade against Iraq as orchestrated by the WASP POTUS and his gilly in Downing street

bonkey

Originally posted by HFXOC
Perhaps Battleboar and his ilk should comment more about ....

And perhaps you should comment more about what is being discussed.

Not every thread has to devolve into the rights and wrongs of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict or the US' foreign policy.

We are discussing France, and a French problem here. If thats not to your interest, then go to a different thread, but stop dragging this one off topic to your own agenda please.

,c

Cork

Originally posted by bonkey
And perhaps you should comment more about what is being discussed.

Not every thread has to devolve into the rights and wrongs of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict or the US' foreign policy.

,c

I would agree. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is dragged into everything.

We had a lot of anti-Semitism in Europe and it is sad seeing it raising it's ugly head again.

There is no excuse for anti-Semitism.

shotamoose

Originally posted by Sand
Ssssh Shot. Dont you know theres no such thing as anti-americanism?:)

That's why I put it in quotes. You've been merrily labelling people as xenophobic with little if any justification - in fact, solely in order to silence anyone who dares criticize America - then you turn around and expect us to chuckle indulgently when you stigmatize an entire country based on what, exactly? A nasty holiday experience? Please. Clearly you're only interested in other people having to back up their opinions with things like reasons or facts.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Cork
I would agree. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is dragged into everything.

We had a lot of anti-Semitism in Europe and it is sad seeing it raising it's ugly head again.

There is no excuse for anti-Semitism.

Given that, in this case, it appears to originate from French Arabs, it’s not exactly anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is the classic manifestation of race hatred, something that would not apply here, as ultimately Arabs are also Semites.

Sand

What would you prefer I do Sand? Apply the sweeping logic that "all French are violent criminals" as you seem to have applied your "there [sic] arrogant, snotty, unfriendly and plain rude glory" to them?

Well, lets be honest - you say you didnt differentiate them and then you say you identified it wasnt French on french hate, but rather french arab on french jew hate. Im not criticising you for doing that, it is the reality after all - the fact you need to explain the violence and the tension just demonstrates the point I was making to Von.

I'd love to hear the suggestions. Honestly. Armchair critics are all well and good, but if you're so quick to tell us whats wrong, then maybe you could all tell us how it should be fixed?

Honestly my first preference would be to avoid the problem of significant multiculturalism altogether but that apparently makes me evil. Its apparently a good thing not to intervene abroad and instead just take in what ever misfortunates manage to escape from whaterever miserable regime they come from - which has a charming darwinist element to it:|

Seeing as its too late for the French - In my opinion, Frances swing to xenophobic politics isnt the problem itself, its a symptom of the problem; You could ban such parties but the tension and fear such parties capitalise on would still exist but would have one less fairly peaceful form of exspression - and they live in a multicultural society then there are two choices: heavy policing and zero tolerance which will hopefully eliminate the worst of the trouble makers. The problem is youll have the bleeding hearts bleating on about people being arrested for breaking the law and stuff.

Another option would be to abandon their national identity of Frenchness - wine, cheese, eiffel tower, berets and silly hooped shirts, bemusing arrogance etc etc - which is meaningless to the cultures which are now entering France and instead attempt to create another mono-culture which can provide a sense of identity to all French citizens - an example wouldve been Frances 1998 and 2000 trophy winning football squad which was drawn from pretty much all over the world, Zidane was of algerian descent wasnt he?

How successful such cultural engineering is or can be is up for debate, whether it is more effective than heavy policing of troublemakers is also up for debate.

I'm curious. Do you actually speak French, or did you base your opinion on the willingness and ability of the people you met to speak your language in their country?

My french at that time was passable at best, so we left most of the talking to the one who was semi-fluent ( a bit rusty but well able to hold a conversation). Plenty of the French could speak english so that wasnt a problem- if anything they seemed to take offence if you tried to speak to them in anything but english so I dont know.

As for language being a problem, I dont think so to be honest.Its more attitude. Ill give you an example. I used to work part time in Tescos, and when France was playing Ireland in the 6 nations wed get our fair share of French visitors. One of whom came up to me in the store and started playing charades because he couldnt speak a word of english it seemed. Being non-French and thus having some weird compulsion to help out visitors to my country despite the fact my French had declined awfully, I spent quite a while trying to figure out what he wanted until we discovered he was looking for pepper, smile and a thumbs up and on his way.

Whereas a friend of mine who went to France on a family trip was jeered out of a shop when he asked for bread in a shop, in french, which if not fluent was perfectly understandable.

Now bear in mind - I dont like the French, thats clear by now - but Im friendly enough not to simply go sorry pal, no comprende and walk off, let alone to sneer at him. You even compare their attitude to the Netherlands where *everyone* we met was friendly and up for a laugh.

That's why I put it in quotes. You've been merrily labelling people as xenophobic with little if any justification - in fact, solely in order to silence anyone who dares criticize America - then you turn around and expect us to chuckle indulgently when you stigmatize an entire country based on what, exactly? A nasty holiday experience? Please. Clearly you're only interested in other people having to back up their opinions with things like reasons or facts.

Eomer, meet Shot. Shot, meet Eomer. Why do I need to label anyone when they proudly declare it themselves? I refer you to the anti-american thread that was floating around a while back where a couple of posters nailed their colours to the mast.

And regarding your second point - course not, I dislike the french, everyone I know dislikes them, we all share the memory of visiting their charming country. Christ even people I dont know hate the place, as noted by the complete stranger we encountered on top of the arch de triumph who just said what everyone was thinking when he suddenly shouted to no one in particular "I cant wait to get out of this focking city!!!" Hell even a person from a French overseas department concurs theyre prats. Ive yet to meet anyone whose got anything good to say about them.

But, despite and above and beyond all that which is purely my own personal opinion on them as a people, I was talking about their attitude to the sufferring of animals and the pollution of the enviroment - all of which can be seemingly shrugged off with a grin "French will be french afterall". So why, exactly, should anyone be surprised that theyre shrugging off thuggery masquerading as politics?

Meh

Originally posted by Sand
Christ even people I dont know hate the place, as noted by the complete stranger we encountered on top of the arch de triumph who just said what everyone was thinking when he suddenly shouted to no one in particular "I cant wait to get out of this focking city!!!"

So did you visit anywhere outside Paris on your trip to France? I've been to France (although not to Paris), and your experiences do not sound familiar to me.

shotamoose

Your posts are becoming increasingly bizarre, Sand, keep it coming I need the laughs.

Originally posted by Sand
Eomer, meet Shot. Shot, meet Eomer.

Er, what? What's Eomer got to do with anything? You'll have to slow down and actually explain some of this rather than just spouting off.

And regarding your second point - course not, I dislike the french, everyone I know dislikes them, we all share the memory of visiting their charming country. Christ even people I dont know hate the place, as noted by the complete stranger we encountered on top of the arch de triumph who just said what everyone was thinking when he suddenly shouted to no one in particular "I cant wait to get out of this focking city!!!" Hell even a person from a French overseas department concurs theyre prats. Ive yet to meet anyone whose got anything good to say about them.

While we're telling touching personal anecdotes, I've been treated rudely in a French shop too. But it's funny, cos for some reason I didn't nourish that memory into a massive chip on my shoulder against an entire country. Y'see, I've met plenty of rude and/or arrogant French people but god knows I've met more rude and/or arrogant Irish people. Now, this might come as a big surprise so pay attention: I've got some good things to say about some of the French. Not all, mind, but that's because - and this might be another difficult concept - they're not all the same . Some are good and some are bad. Revolutionary, I know.

And why single out France for polluting the environment and animal cruelty when there's any number of other countries just as bad or worse? Maybe this is another traumatic personal experience you've somehow transformed into some grand political worldview? If so, I must admit that it's almost impressive, but also slightly worrying.

Samba

I really do not know where to start, Sand you are an ethnocentric and unless you start to go to a new school of thought I think you are going to hate alot of Cultures around the world as their actions displease you.

It is one thing not agreeing with them, it is another to judge an entire nation based on them.

How many times have you been in France? where have you visited and how long were your stays?

It is one thing to visit a country as a tourist, a very different matter to visit a country being able to speak the native language fluently, so we are bound to have different perspectives of that holiday.

French antiwar protesters attack other antiwar protesters because they are Jewish

I'm not accusing the average French of perpetrating violence or even actively supporting it, I'm simply accusing them their government of not caring.

Perhaps you should rethink that thread title if that is the case.

There are alot of misconceptions arising in this thread, too many to name and tackle and what is the point if they are backed with malice and hate.

none imo.

To hate a nation or country imo is very narrowminded and to make such statements is down right ignorant for the simple fact that you cannot judge an entire nation based on a tiny minority of that nation.

Samba

One last word, do you hate me Sand and everyone you know?

Interesting as to whether or not I see a response to that question.


and to Battleboar I repeat.....Battleboar, are you American? noticed your spelling of generalization

lili

i am french, i am very polite, i always try to understand what the foreigners say to me. i think i'm sweet:)

BattleBoar

Originally posted by BattleBoar
Bonkey - notice I didn't say the average French were the ones perpetrating these acts, I said the average French don't care, IMO.

Samba - Yes, have previously stated such

Corinthian - Racist against who? The French? I personally don't consider the French a specific "race", although I suppose they could be characterized as such.

Shotamoose - no, I didn't miss it...read below

Its very difficult to have any kind of meaningful discussion if one doesn't even bother to read responses. In the spirit of friendship, I will refrain from saying that your indignant tone regarding a question already answered is stereotypically french...

Samba

heh, I read your post, just not thoroughly, Curiousity more than anything, nothing to do with the discussion and I am making no judgement, I made no comments in relation to that post

Von

Originally quoted by Sand

Visit France and bask in their warm friendly nature Von:|

I’ve been there on many occasions for different reasons actually. I spent a particularly nice period of time in La Rochelle. All in all, I’ve found that the French are generally very friendly and hospitable, particularly when it comes to the Irish. I reckon you have to try very very hard to get them all to dislike you. How about this? One time when I was hitch hiking about with my mate looking for work, a chap gave us a lift to his town Montelimar (famous for nougat), made us dinner, bought us a couple of drinks, let us sleep in his flat and then went and asked his mate the police chief to find out if there was any work to be had for us locally. That doesn’t sound like the actions of a rude and arrogant people does it? That kind of civility was common enough that I was able to go from one end of the country to the other and back for the price of a few drinks and baguettes. Corinthian may be right, maybe it’s just you.

Look at what Samba and Bonkey are doing- differentiating between French people and French Muslims and French Jews. Whilst left wingers have a nice hippy dream about everyone coming together and making daisy chains in the sunshine the reality - as shown by the hate crimes in France is very different. Do I want a situation where we have "real" Irish and "other" Irish? Christ no - I think we have had enough on our plate with Catholic/Republican/Gaelic Irish and Protestant/Unionist/British Irish, dont you? Oh yay- the joys of multiculturalism:|

Waffle. You’re the one trying to ignore reality. This may come as something of a shock, but there are many people in the world who are different to you. And these days, as the wordl gets smaller, they’re free to move about more and more and seek to work and live here and there. So you’d better start learning how to deal with them. And watch La Haine while you’re at it. What do you propose? If a bunch of jews and arabs come here to get away from the bombing and bulldozing should they be kicked out in case they corrupt the country with their vile mumbo jumbo and weird traditions? Or what?

BattleBoar

To clarify my position, I definitely don't dislike all french people. I do dislike some individual french people I've met. But, some french people I know, I like quite a lot. I'm definitely opposed to some aspects of french culture, but who isn't opposed to aspects of some culture. Sure most people here have huge issues with at least some aspects of american culture as well...myself included.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
In my opinion, Frances swing to xenophobic politics isnt the problem itself,

Coming from someone who is so vehemently opposed to the notion of multicultiralism, I would ahve thought you'd be all in favour of a xenophobic political system....

...although I'd love to hear how France is Xenophobic with such a significant number of immigrants in the country......especially when the crime we see is not perpetrated by "immigrants out" supporters.

its a symptom of the problem;

Yes - I'd agree. Intolerance of, and fear of, other cultures is exactly the problem. Remind me again why you're against multiculturalism?

in a multicultural society then there are two choices: heavy policing and zero tolerance which will hopefully eliminate the worst of the trouble makers.

Rubbish. Show me a single place where this has successfully dealt with the problems of multiculturalism. No social problem is ever solved through subjugation.

Another option would be to abandon their national identity of Frenchness

Not only is your notion of "Frenchness" laughable (not funny - just laughable), but again you are so far off the mark with your solution it almost beggars belief.

Show me one nation where this has worked? Just one. You're listing it as one of the only two possible solutions, so I'm wondering....given the complete failure of extreme policing to do anything except subjugate a population or incite riot, this must be what was used successfully everywhere in history where multicultural problems have been tackled....only I cant think of a single place where it was attempted, let alone succcessful.

Surely you're not basing your "only two solutions" on an opinion which has no basis in history, and disregards everything which has been tried....especially those which have been successful?

Not only that, but in this case you're ignoring the fact (already pointed out) that the people perpetrating these crimes are recent immigrants, who remain seperate to the French culture.

an example wouldve been Frances 1998 and 2000 trophy winning football squad which was drawn from pretty much all over the world, Zidane was of algerian descent wasnt he?

So this would mean that the Irish culture is - in fact - about 70% english, given that this is where our football team mostly come from?

How successful such cultural engineering is or can be is up for debate, whether it is more effective than heavy policing of troublemakers is also up for debate.

You've just proposed them as the only two possible solutions. Now you say "its up for debate"? You really dont hold out much hope for this whole mixing of cultures thing, do you?

Only two potential solutions, both of which you admit are dodgy....its no wonder you dont hold out much hope...who could when you start from a position of "this wont work, and we cant make it work.

when he suddenly shouted to no one in particular "I cant wait to get out of this focking city!!!"

Because, as we all know, Paris is - in fact - the entirety of France, and it is impossible to get out of the city without leaving the nation of France.

Hell, I think Paris is a dump as a city, and that Parisians - taken as a collective whole - are a less welcoming lot than most of the rest of France. Most French readily admit there is a cultural difference between Parisians and the rest of France.

Regardless of whether you believe or accept that, I would still say that if Paris is the only place you;ve been to then you dont even have a frame of reference to classify all French. It would be like coming to a conclusion about "the Irish" as a nation from spending a bit o' time in Dublin (which I have always found to be one of the coldest and least welcoming places in Ireland...despite being from there).

I was talking about their attitude to the sufferring of animals and the pollution of the enviroment - all of which can be seemingly shrugged off with a grin "French will be french afterall".

Well, I havent seen you lining up to criticise, say, the US environmental policy recently, so I dont see why you should have a problem with the French over similar behaviour.

The US, for example, in 1994, had an average fuel consumption of between 19 and 20 miles to the gallon. The US have refused to sign on to Kyoto, mostly on the grounds of two reasons : 1) It is uncertain that things are really that bad, and 2) If things are that bad, it would cost too much to do anyway.

Generally this is shrugged off with "typical Americans, but what can you do" by those who dont like what they're doing, and "dead right" by those who support them. No different to what you're singling another nation out for here....but apparently thats not acceptable when its your behated French we're talking about.

I dont know who you see apologising for the French, but it sure as hell isnt you and your "Paris is France and its rotten" mates.

I havent seen anyone on here saying "ah, shur, its the Frenchies" recently either.

And I'm pretty sure its not the populace in general you're referring to. Last time I remember there being any sort of controversy over the French (which would have been the nuclear testing) most Irish people I knew were off refusing to buy French wine. Strange how they dont refuse their coke and fries over Iraq....but apparently that must be different, cause its the French who you think we let get off lightly.

So, exactly who and where are these French apologists Sand, and in exactly what way has France got off lighter than that bastion of good international role-modelling, the US???

jc

Sand

So did you visit anywhere outside Paris on your trip to France?

No, Paris was enough for me - any lingering doubts about the rest of the country were dispelled by the tales of visitors to the rest of the country.

Your posts are becoming increasingly bizarre, Sand, keep it coming I need the laughs

/me bows:)

Er, what? What's Eomer got to do with anything?

I just wanted to demonstrate that I dont have to label anyone anti-american when they do it themselves:| Not a major point- just you swung into action on that angle.

Not all, mind, but that's because - and this might be another difficult concept - they're not all the same . Some are good and some are bad. Revolutionary, I know.

Well Ill definitly allow that your theory might hold some weight, though as yet evidence is sketchy from what Ive heard. Ill have to put it to you that the only friendly person we met in France wasnt even French , but actually a Korean woman. Now amazingly that results in a much more positive opinion of Koreans than it does of French people. /me shrugs - when I cant find a single decent - willing to extend the basic friendliness other people (Not even Irish, the dutch were amazing to be honest ) take for granted - french person what exactly am i supposed to do? Base my opinion of *your* holiday?

And why single out France for polluting the environment and animal cruelty when there's any number of other countries just as bad or worse?

I didnt - just noted that when such appears to be accepted as as legitimate forms of protest why should violence based on ehtnic hatred be surprising?

I really do not know where to start, Sand you are an ethnocentric and unless you start to go to a new school of thought I think you are going to hate alot of Cultures around the world as their actions displease you.

Nah actually - Im not ethnocentric , I dislike the French but Ive plenty of time for just about every other people and culture. Hell, Im even polite and friendly to French tourists - got to give them an example if nothing else.

How many times have you been in France? where have you visited and how long were your stays?

I was in Paris - I stayed for 3/4 days and I literally could not wait to leave the place - the city itself was wonderful, the people were ignorant. I was actually tempted to go back recently but I was talking then to another person who was currently residing in the country and they again confirmed the sort of attitude prevalent.

/me shrugs - perhaps when I actually meet someone whose been to the country and reckoned the French were lovely Ill give the place another chance- until then Ill visit countries which have a handle on basic courtesy.

One last word, do you hate me Sand and everyone you know?

Heh, the amount of people I hate I can count on one hand:) And Samba you mustnt think that its anything personal - Its not as if every single French person I met was trying to be personally rude to me and others I know, they just appeared to have no concept of what I considered to basic friendliness. I just accept that they dont, based on my own experiences, on the experiences of others whove visited France or resided in it, and even the experiences of native French speakers. I allow for an individual to act as the exception but Ive yet to meet any.

How about this? One time when I was hitch hiking about with my mate looking for work, a chap gave us a lift to his town Montelimar (famous for nougat), made us dinner, bought us a couple of drinks, let us sleep in his flat and then went and asked his mate the police chief to find out if there was any work to be had for us locally.That doesn’t sound like the actions of a rude and arrogant people does it? That kind of civility was common enough that I was able to go from one end of the country to the other and back for the price of a few drinks and baguettes. Corinthian may be right, maybe it’s just you.

Heh Von I nearly choked laughing when I read that to be honest - what sort of jobs was he lining you up for?:)

But getting a bit more serious Von given how you love throwing the old insults around the cynical side of me isnt exactly surprised you get along famously with the French:)

And it might have been me. Thats possible. Doesnt sit well though with how well we got on with the dutch? Doesnt explain how everyone else I know of whose visited the place had negative opinions of the people - were they guilty by association even if I didnt know most of them at the times they were in France?

This may come as something of a shock, but there are many people in the world who are different to you. And these days, as the wordl gets smaller, they’re free to move about more and more and seek to work and live here and there. So you’d better start learning how to deal with them.

Ah now now sunshine, Im not opposed to immigration at all, Ireland needs to encourage immigration as the economy demands and it needs to accept its responsibilities towards refugees. Im just opposed to the ethnic tensions and and social stresses that come with muticulturalism. Personally I see no real benefit to multiculturalism - were all the same afterall, the world is a smaller place anyway - why the need for ethnic hatreds and race riots such as enjoyed by northern uk cities not so long ago?

Thats what I oppose, so stop with the pointless strawman tactics - just answer the hard question if you can. No-one has ever been able to show how Ireland is going to get it right when our richer and more experienced neighbours have got it so horribly wrong; I mean look at your attitude Von - You reckon you pile them in there, if someone doesnt like it TOUGH! and when the Irish extremist parties suddenly spring up and the tensions develop youll suddenly be wondering "WTF?!?!? I told them TOUGH, why are they still being argumentative about it!" I mean, what from your knowledge of Irish settled - travelling relationship makes you think multiculturalism is something Ireland needs?

When you can demonstrate how youre going to prevent the development of the sort of tensions and hatreds weve seen between the French arabs and the French jews ( Beyond TOUGH!!! of course), or even between Irish travellers and settled communities then multiculturalism becomes a non-issue for me as theres no benefit or loss to it so no reason to oppose it or campaign for it.

Feel free to keep on trying to paint me as the BNPs poster boy or something - Im sure thats an easier for you to cope with. Or you can actually address my point. Go on, surprise me.

Sand

Coming from someone who is so vehemently opposed to the notion of multicultiralism, I would ahve thought you'd be all in favour of a xenophobic political system....

Bonkey , Vons already gone down that route. Why are French citizens taking lumps out of each other on the basis that some of them are muslim and the others are jewish, and though theyve probably never really done anything to one another their "cultural identities" seem to indicate they shouldnt be getting on, and this is apparently stronger than their French identity which they nominally both share.

Multiculturalism perhaps? Ive no problem with the concept of multiculturalism as imagined by those who argue for it as an absolute good thing. Unlike them I see the problems that seem to be part and parcel of the deal - from the poorest countries to the richest. Seeing as were all the same how does it benefit us to "import" for want of a better word a culture which can often hold drastically different opinions on a wide variety of issues, and thus doesnt integrate with the native culture? - how successful has Vons attitude been where two or more cultures are just lumped together and expected to get along - and if they dont its blaming the symptom rather than the actual problem itself.

It can happen, but seemingly in remarkable circumstances, the american people are a mish mash of shared cultures and identities, British, Irish, German, African, and increasingly Hispanic - they actually built a mono-culture they all could contribute too and feel a part of - and even then there was huge tensions and continue to be in many ways.

Rubbish. Show me a single place where this has successfully dealt with the problems of multiculturalism. No social problem is ever solved through subjugation.

Well I was talking about application of the law and a heavy police presence - that you equate this with subjugation just demonstrates what i was talking about when i noted the difficulties with that option.

As for actual subjugation it apparently works a charm, though that doesnt make it much more attractive tbh - Tito kept Yugoslavia together for close to half a century, after it was liberalised it held together for barely half a decade in any meaningful sense. Same for the USSR, which no longer exists:| Even now, people have been noting the tribal nature of Iraq and how only Saddam could keep them ...united I guess. Even the kurds wouldnt have what freedom they did win without outside intervention.

Show me one nation where this has worked? Just one.

See above, the US created a colonialist identity, go-getters building a nation in an (almost) empty continent, which has since developed into the wonderful flag waving, freedom loving, entreprenuerial attitude so beloved all around the world. As for the Swiss, have they created a shared identity to which every culture has contributed? Im honestly not sure? Would the average citizen identify themselves as Swiss first and foremost or by their ethnic descent?

Not only that, but in this case you're ignoring the fact (already pointed out) that the people perpetrating these crimes are recent immigrants, who remain seperate to the French culture.

i.e. multiculturalism? Which is exactly what this thread has developed onto? Im not ignoring it - its a perfect example of the problems attached to multiculturalism.

So this would mean that the Irish culture is - in fact - about 70% english, given that this is where our football team mostly come from?

Given what music we listen to, what tv we watch, what papers we read, and even what football teams we support I wouldnt think youd be all that wrong actually. Cuturally were about as independant as the Welsh or the Scottish which isnt surprising given our nations histories, weve all got our own little bits and pieces but we all share the English culture to some degree.

But the point I was making was that given the diverse nature of the French football squad every French citizen, even those who werent part of the dominant culture could feel it was in some way representing them and it didnt belong purely to say the native french or to the arabic french. Thats the sort of shared experiences that would be neccessary to build a mono-culture that they could all feel a part of. I remeber at the time the French leadership ( Could have been Chirac, though I dont think so ) specifically hailing the diverse make up of the squad for similar reasons.

You've just proposed them as the only two possible solutions. Now you say "its up for debate"? You really dont hold out much hope for this whole mixing of cultures thing, do you?

Not really. Human nature being what it is afterall.

Only two potential solutions, both of which you admit are dodgy....its no wonder you dont hold out much hope...who could when you start from a position of "this wont work, and we cant make it work.

Actually it would be - "This has almost never worked, and where it has worked to any degree its been a hell of a lot of trouble".

The main problem is that whilst Ive offered two possible ways to make it work, youve done your best to shoot them down without actually volunteering anything to the brainstorming session. This leaves us with Vons philosophy of like it or lump it - and an unfortunately proportion of people seem to go for the later leading to immense human misery. Now whilst we know theyre wrong, calling them nasty names isnt going to change anything. Its a great exscuse for a protest march though.

Regardless of whether you believe or accept that, I would still say that if Paris is the only place you;ve been to then you dont even have a frame of reference to classify all French.

But the people whove been outside Paris do - and pooling our shared knowledge weve come to a shared conclusion.

Well, I havent seen you lining up to criticise, say, the US environmental policy recently, so I dont see why you should have a problem with the French over similar behaviour.

/me shrugs - when theyre polluting rivers to protest being laid off I dont think its even a enviromental policy issue anymore. When theyre torching animals to protest imports I dont think its a trade policy issue anymore.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
this is apparently stronger than their French identity which they nominally both share.

I've already pointed out that the problems - for the vast majority - arise from recent immigrants. They (or sometimes just their parents) have French citizenship. This does not mean that they have any French identity.

You're putting the cart before the horse here from what I can see - if they had a "French identity" (i.e. were integrating themselves into the culture), they probably wouldnt be involved in these problems. I know thats only speculative, but the point I'm making is not that they are putting something before their French identity, but rather that they dont have a French identity - merely Fench citizenship.

The problem with dealing with these issues is obviously how to minimise the disruption caused by this "lag" of presence vs cultural identity. There is a fine balance between not letting the immigrants get walked over by a society who can treat them as the new kicking boy (if you simply take the "immigrants are to blame" stance) and getting walked over by the immigrants (if you take the "we have to treat them with kid gloves" stance).

Where all of this came from is that the people causing these problems are not - in any culturally meaningful sense - French, and the French (IMHO) have managed to make a complete cock-up of how this all came about. You get no disagreement from me on that one. Where I disagree is that this is anything "typical of the French" as the original slant was put on the thread.

Its not that the French dont care about their Jews, nor anything like that. Its that they have a problem of their own creating that they are only now realising they are not coping with, and they are looking how to change their approach to deal with the problem without just changing who the victims are.

It can happen, but seemingly in remarkable circumstances, the american people are a mish mash of shared cultures and identities, British, Irish, German, African, and increasingly Hispanic - they actually built a mono-culture they all could contribute too and feel a part of - and even then there was huge tensions and continue to be in many ways.

So - what you're saying is that they struggled through all of the cultural "wars" (and there were plenty) to emerge as a "mono-cultural" society?

Given that your argument for social development is that all the emerging economies should go through their "growing pains" as it will benefit them in the long run (cause our nations all did it and look where it got the US), surely then we should be saying that multicultural tensions are also a necessary growing pain which we have to get through to emerge with something worthwhile.

If sweatshops, and the wests exploitation of them are ok because they are an analagous to our own workhouses during the revolution, why then are the growing pains which the US went through not what we should all suffer in order to get where they went?

Well I was talking about application of the law and a heavy police presence - that you equate this with subjugation just demonstrates what i was talking about when i noted the difficulties with that option.

You talked about a heavy police presence and zero tolerance to deal with the problem.

The thing is that unless you apply those criteria to all aspects of policing, you are targetting a specific subsection of society for "special treatment" - something which doesnt work, as people start noticing the disparity between the policing and sentencing of one part of society and another for equivalent crimes....something which isnt exactly synonymous with "equality" which is supposed to be a tenet of the free world.

So, do you think society at large will accept far harsher policing and zero tolerance across the board in order to deal with a specific problem?

When you follow the logic, you typically end up with a situation where heavy policing works only when people are too scared to break the law, rather than because they respect it.

That, in my book, is subjugation - its fear of reprisal, not willingness to abide by the law.

As for the Swiss, have they created a shared identity to which every culture has contributed? Im honestly not sure? Would the average citizen identify themselves as Swiss first and foremost or by their ethnic descent?

A bit of both really.

The consider themselves Swiss and of an cultural grouping. There is the same good-natured slagging between Swiss French and Swiss Germans as there is between (say) Corkonians and jackeens. However, when it comes to referenda and so on, there are clearly defined cultural voting tendencies.

Those who are of more recent immigration "waves" may consider themselves both Swiss and of their original culture.

The most recent immigrants consider themselves immigrants from a particular culture.

In each of these waves, there is typically an increase in crime and so on with the arrival of a new cultural group. These problems typically go away after one to two generations, as the incumbent culture settles down and its members begin to integrate themselves into a society which is willing to include them and treat them equally and fairly. They start being "Swiss and <insert cultural background here>", and thats just fine with everyone.

The point is that as each new "wave" brings its own problems, the Swiss don't go "Oh no, multiculturalism doesnt work....kick them all out and lock the doors". What they say is "Give it (and them) a chance - we know it will work and ultimately be to everyone's benefit". To date its worked. Each culture has retained many facets of its original form, and yet has also become "Swiss".

Its not a black and white distinction where you can just say "well, thats really monoculturalism", or "no, its definitely multi-cultural". There's a good mix of both in there - and perhaps thats a part of the reason it works.

Thats the sort of shared experiences that would be neccessary to build a mono-culture that they could all feel a part of.

Actually, I would have said that its a shining example of how you can be both part of a national identity and culture without sacrificing your own culture - multiculturalism at its best. It is showing people that you can rise above your cultural diversity, work together in a national spirit, but without sacrificing what you believe in, where you came from, or what you are.

[
The main problem is that whilst Ive offered two possible ways to make it work, youve done your best to shoot them down without actually volunteering anything to the brainstorming session.

In my opinion, Ssocial inclusion is the only possible manner in which the problems of multi-culturalism can work - a society which welcomes the immigrants, and which genuinely offers them something, and is willing to accept that these people will not simply "blend in" invisibly, but will retain aspects of their own culture and lifestyles.

Yes, policing is important, but only to the extent that it is applied uniformly across society. Again, Switzerland is a good example. Immigrants are not specifically targetted for policing. Trouble spots (i.e. locations) are targetted, but for whatever reason they occur - there's no special treatment of immigrants, and policing levels are not what I would call "heavy" or "zero tolerance". Maybe its just our definitions of the terms which are the problem....my dad has always said that he couldnt live here because the Swiss have a law for everything and they actually expect you to keep them all. Maybe it is what some would consider "zero tolerance", but when I see police just telling people "dont smoke that stuff on the train or next time we'll have to charge you" I find it hard to believe its "zero tolerance".

The other major thing Switzerland does is sensible limitation of numbers. No "open door" policy here - something which I agree with fully.

Its not a perfect system, but no system can be. It has problems. There are those who oppose the current system in Switzerland. However, it actually works....and mostly because people have learned that these things take time to settle down, and that they should give the incumbents a chance before passing judgement.

After that, they leave it to the relatively solid social services system and well-run police force to make it clear that immigrants get no special favours. The end result is that the unwelcome elements quickly get found and deported for breaking the law enough, or decide not to come here in the first place because the system isnt too easy to cheat for a living.

You wont see a Swiss judge refusing to revoke a 16-year old's residency permit for repeated legal infractions, just because he doesnt want to split the family up. Its very simple - you step across a certain line, and you're dealt with. (If you were a Swiss or a naturalised immigrant, you'd be in jail, if you're on a work permit, you're deported and will never be given a permit again.) If the family decides it doesnt want to be split up, they can all choose to leave - thats up to them.

The point is that the Swiss have a system which works well in the first place, and which immigrants can be incorporated into in controlled amounts, and the public are willing to give it the time it needs to work.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
when theyre polluting rivers to protest being laid off I dont think its even a enviromental policy issue anymore. When theyre torching animals to protest imports I dont think its a trade policy issue anymore.

OK - fair point. I agree - such actions should be dealt with, just as the Irish should have arrested the taxi-drivers when they illegally blocked roads during their strikes, but didnt.

If you look at most western nations where there are protests of this nature, the police are generally forced into taking a step back, less enforcing the law makes the overall situation worse. Its an unfortunate side-effect of politics and policing interfering with each other.

Yes, the French do seem to be particularly noticeable in this arena, but if we're talking about the importance of stuff on such a small scale (i.e. protestors carrying out individual acts), then surely issues like national policy (i.e orders of magnitude more impact) should be orders of magnitude more important?

So its fair criticism that you're making, but it still seems like you're looking to the mote in your neighbour's eye....

It just come across to me like complaining that your neighbour is p1ssing into a stream cause he's unhappy, when you are dumping industrial waste into it as a matter of policy.

jc

Sand

I've already pointed out that the problems - for the vast majority - arise from recent immigrants. They (or sometimes just their parents) have French citizenship. This does not mean that they have any French identity.

Shouldnt they though? Isnt that the basis of multiculturalism? Were all french but my family comes from normandy and has its own customs and tradtions whilst yours comes from algeria and has its own customs and traditions? Ive no stats at hand for those engaged in the violence but Id assume the majority of the arabs were young and were first generation French - or at least have spent the majority of their life in France, as opposed to their parents who were the actual immigrants. Why have they a stronger loyalty to their arab ancestry when its quite possible theyve never been outside of France?

Thats the problem with multiculturalism as advocated by its fans - its assumed immigrants will automatically "become" irish with a funny accent, that their kids will never consider themselves as anything other than Irish with only a nod to the culture or region their parents left behind; that has and will probably happen with diverse immigration (from a wide diversity of cultures) as the there is no community for immigrants to rally around except the native Irish one which they integrate into.

If you go to the French perspective where arabic-french from a significant percentage of the population and more importantly can be assumed to be heavily concentrated ( I remember hearing over half the school children in Paris were of arab descent ) you get a community around which a culture can support itself, leading to multiculturalism and ... fairly predictably to my mind....tensions society doesnt need.

Where I disagree is that this is anything "typical of the French" as the original slant was put on the thread.

Ah. Well thats not quite what I said...

To be honest, do you expect much better from the French? - these lads pollute their own rivers and set trucks full of livestock on fire in protests and theyre allowed to get away with it.

Which was in response to Battleboars noting of either how inept or how indifferent the French establishment seems to be in response to the attacks, at least until theyre embarrassed into action - given the anything goes standards Im not surprised at all.

Its not that the French dont care about their Jews, nor anything like that. Its that they have a problem of their own creating that they are only now realising they are not coping with, and they are looking how to change their approach to deal with the problem without just changing who the victims are.

Good for them, and I honestly hope they find a solution - I just hope that they dont become so singleminded about one set of problems they ignore other victims for fear of making the problem theyve set their hearts on worse - from what Battleboar quoted it seems as the French work on the arabic community their inaction may cause resentment and dismay in other communities. As you note later, a balanced approach is the key - that doesnt mean arresting crinimals on an equal opportunities basis to my mind but simply arresting those who commit a crime without playing community politics whilst doing it.

Given that your argument for social development is that all the emerging economies should go through their "growing pains" as it will benefit them in the long run (cause our nations all did it and look where it got the US), surely then we should be saying that multicultural tensions are also a necessary growing pain which we have to get through to emerge with something worthwhile.

Youre not really comparing like with like there in my opinion. Economic development has real and tangiable benefits for peoples standard of living, whereas Im still lost as to what the upside to multiculturalism is ..... we have a load of people from a particular culture living next door - ummm, great... how is that better than having say some boring old neighbours from cork next door? If there was a real benefit to multiculturalism Id say grand, growing pains but it will be worth it in the end. I just dont see how it will be?

So, do you think society at large will accept far harsher policing and zero tolerance across the board in order to deal with a specific problem?

Id advocate zero tolerance in response to crime in general - something I think that society at large would accept and most likely support. A balanced legal system will arrest you and jail you if you commit a crime and they wont if you dont - and they shouldnt care what ethnic grouping your from and they shouldnt care if an ethnic group is over-represented so long as theyre confident the convictions made were solid convictions. Anyone involved in the fighting that broke out should have been arrested and trialled as a matter of course. now of course a reporter out to make a name for themselves or our good friends in the alternate media would have a field day but since when are they the people the legal system are accountable to?

When you follow the logic, you typically end up with a situation where heavy policing works only when people are too scared to break the law, rather than because they respect it.

People are supposed to be scared of breaking the law to my mind. Its not respect for the law that stops me from hitting the first person who annoys me when Im having a bad day, its the fear of winding up in jail for doing it.

It is showing people that you can rise above your cultural diversity, work together in a national spirit, but without sacrificing what you believe in, where you came from, or what you are.

Wouldnt that only work for short term goals - like lets put aside our differences for the campaign ( something previous dutch sides havent been able to do ), and do something great for all of us, but when its accomplished and the buzz has worn off the differences are still there?

Argh - its late - ill get back to the rest again.......