Dublins secret railway line

Ro

Good article on the line between Heuston and Connolly and how it should be developed here:

http://www.platform11.org/dconnector.html

Victor

Ro, as moderator can I ask you to develop your posts and not just post links.

How is it planned to manage platform space and slots at Heuston and Connolly-Pearse? And do you know the Phoenix Park Tunnel is too small for overhead cables?

Ro

Originally posted by Victor
How is it planned to manage platform space and slots at Heuston and Connolly-Pearse? And do you know the Phoenix Park Tunnel is too small for overhead cables?

You could use Arrow trains for the tunnel. If you have a look at the map it shows which stations it would use.

http://www.platform11.org/d-conmap.jpg

MDR

funny all that line has bee upgraded over the last few months ...

Saruman

There was a lot of talk in the papers and stuff a few weeks back of a metro using the phoenix park tunnel... would not need mega money since its in place and i know it has been used for freight as i have seen trains use it a few years back!

MDR

This proposed tunnel between Huston and Connolly is absolutily ridicolous when one considers there is an existing track. The line is being upgraded for something, they aren't doing it for entertainment, anyone know why ?

Victor

Originally posted by MDR
This proposed tunnel between Huston and Connolly is absolutily ridicolous when one considers there is an existing track. The line is being upgraded for something, they aren't doing it for entertainment, anyone know why ?

There are two lines, one elevated, one in a cutting, between Cabra and Connolly. The lower one is currently being redone.

The purpose of the tunnel is to service areas like the Liberties and Stephens Green and connect them to Spencer Dock.

dmeehan

would it not be cheaper to run a luas line through the liberties etc rather than spending €1bn on a tunnel for a rail link?

Victor

Originally posted by dmeehan
would it not be cheaper to run a luas line through the liberties etc rather than spending €1bn on a tunnel for a rail link?

Largely yes, but you would be dealing with on-street traffic in a number of places and perhaps a 20 minutes Heuston - Stephens Green - Spencer Dock journey as opposed to 10 minutes. Plus the chaos of construction.

MDR

There are two lines, one elevated, one in a cutting, between Cabra and Connolly. The lower one is currently being redone.

Yes, but for what reason ?

Victor

Originally posted by MDR
Yes, but for what reason ?

I don't know the "reason", but certainly goods trains used to use the line. If they want to do a major upgrade to the Maynooth line (the upper one), then they can divert trains to use the lower line.

michaelanthony

You can't run diesel trains underground. Doh

Victor

Originally posted by michaelanthony
You can't run diesel trains underground. Doh

Context?

Saruman

"Originally posted by michaelanthony
You can't run diesel trains underground. Doh"



And why is that? Dont say fumes because they can be ventilated and there are plenty of non electric trains in Ireland going underground for short distances.. they are called tunnels.

spongebob

Originally posted by michaelanthony
You can't run diesel trains underground. Doh

I have been thru the Phoenix Park tunnel in a Steam Train and in a Diesel Train. We all survived , duh!

M

MDR

I have been thru the Phoenix Park tunnel in a Steam Train and in a Diesel Train. We all survived , duh!

When was that.

Victor

Originally posted by MDR
When was that.

I was on a concert special (circa 1992) that went direct from Cork to Connolly. And anyway all the Cork - Dublin trains use the longer tunnel in Cork.

spongebob

Originally posted by MDR
When was that.

1970's , the Diesel was in service, the other was an excursion .

CIE only stopped regular(ish) commuter trains thru the Phoenix Park tunnel in the first half of the 1970's .

They used ta have a crock that crawled from Dublin-Galway via Mullingar every night as well, that was still on the go in the late 80's maybe even into the 1990's... as was the Athlone-Mullingar line that carried it and the Asahi trains.

I was very drunk on that train more than once....because if I was sober I never would have caught it anyway and it coveniently stopped for an hour in Mullingar where you could go to a hardcore skanger bar called Moores and have more pints ...and then run back to the station.

M

Ro

There was an article in the Irish Times yesterday on the Phoenix Park tunnel. What are the bets they read boards.ie

Rail lobby group questions plan for 'interconnector' tunnel
Chris Ashmore


The wisdom of spending €1 billion to build an "interconnector" rail tunnel linking Heuston Station with Pearse Station and Connolly Station/Spencer Dock has been seriously questioned by the recently formed railway lobby group, Platform 11.

A more practical and immediate solution to integrating rail transport in Dublin in the short term would be to use an existing rail route through the Phoenix Park tunnel which currently has no passenger services, according to the group.

Platform 11 says Dublin already has a perfectly good and operational double-track rail line that runs from Heuston to Connolly stations just waiting to be used.

"It is perhaps the best-kept secret in the history of urban rail transport anywhere in Europe."

It claims that such a service could be operational within a year. In effect, it would mean that passengers on the south-western suburban routes could travel to Connolly - and ultimately Spencer Dock - rather than Heuston.

Platform 11 has drawn up its own proposals for a "cross-city shuttle" between Heuston Station and a planned new station at Spencer Dock.

It claims that the existing line from Heuston Station to Connolly Station via Cabra, Glasnevin and Drumcondra is grossly under-used and could be developed at a fraction of the cost.

At present the line is used by freight trains and for moving stock to depots for maintenance purposes.

"It is a situation that would be unheard of in any other European city, let alone a gridlocked capital notorious for its lack of public rail transport," according to the group.

"Our transport planners seem obsessed with grandiose and massively expensive tunnelling concepts that will take years to complete, while part of the solution to Dublin's congestion problem is staring us in the face."

According to Platform 11 steering group member, Mr Derek Wheeler, it is not opposed to the "interconnector" idea in principle and would be supportive of any investment to enhance public transport.

However, past experience pointed to cost overruns and longer timescales than planned.

"CIÉ had plans for a rapid rail system as far back as 1973, little of which has been implemented apart from the DART," he notes.

In the Strategic Rail Review, published last week, consultants Booz Allen Hamilton contend that the Phoenix Park tunnel route "offers no real opportunities for passenger services".

"Passengers who currently alight at Heuston are unlikely to be attracted by an extra 15- minute trip to Spencer Dock Station, particularly when the Luas system service is operating from Heuston Station to Connolly Station," it says.

But Mr Wheeler points out that the use of the Phoenix Park route would mean more options and more capacity - and with the Luas, the cost of having an interconnector tunnel as well would have to be questioned.

He feels that the "interconnector" option is being "done at the expense of the regions". Rather than spending €1 billion on this project, the same money could progress a number of new schemes highlighted in the SRR.

Mr Wheeler instanced such schemes as Galway-Limerick-Cork (€290 million), an enhanced Cork suburban service (€124 million), Limerick-Shannon-Ennis (€117 million), Athlone-Mullingar (€154 million), Derry-Letterkenny (€151 million), and Navan-Drogheda (€110 million).




© The Irish Times

Victor

"CIÉ had plans for a rapid rail system as far back as 1973, little of which has been implemented apart from the DART," he notes.

Actually the DART was part of the system that was proposed. IIRC, it included a branch from the mainline at Clondalkin ("Ronanstown") to Tallaght and tunnels from Merrion Gates to Stephen's Green to Cabra and from the North Wall to Heuston, with a huge hub at Temple Bar.

spongebob

Originally posted by Victor
and tunnels from Merrion Gates to Stephen's Green to Cabra and from the North Wall to Heuston, with a huge hub at Temple Bar.

During the period 1975-1987 or so, the operational assumption was that this hub would BE the Temple Bar. A newer larger Busárus was supposed to go on top of it all.

The Temple Bar area became cheap and bohemian as it was supposed to be knocked down 'presently ' during that period.

Charlie Haughey (one of his better moves around 1987-8 ) decided to kybosh the transport hub idea and to develop Temple Bar as a cultural hub rather than a transport hub.

We still need a newer larger Busárus but it should be out along the Luas methinks or else it could be built on 'top' of the lines into Heuston.

M

Victor

Makes me wonder, would people have preferred working public transport and a balanced Temple Bar (i.e. offices, retail, residential in new buildings) or the "quaint" existing buildings full of super pubs?

loyatemu

re: tunnel not high enough to accomadate OHLE.

they were able to electrify the Bray - Greystones line which contains an even longer tunnel by lowering the trackbed - I doubt it would be a major problem. Anyway large parts of the UK system is electrified and they didn't have to build new tunnels.

Scheduled passenger trains used to use the phoenix park tunnel, and GAA specials still use it every summer - it can definitely be used for regular services.

Victor

Originally posted by loyatemu
they were able to electrify the Bray - Greystones line which contains an even longer tunnel by lowering the trackbed - I doubt it would be a major problem. Anyway large parts of the UK system is electrified and they didn't have to build new tunnels.

This may or may not be possible - each would have been built by a different company and possibly to a different specification. But they "say" it cant be done and IE fubars aside, maybe it's not possible.

STaN

OK, isnt one of the luas lines heading into Heuston?

This from what i can see originates from middle Abbey Street (and from there to <<i dont know >> ). The question would be if it would be possible to extend it down to Conolly.

dmeehan

line c goes from abbey st. to connolly station
line a from tallaght to abbey st.

i think it would need "super" capacity to act as a shuttle between the two mainline/commuter stations as well as carry people from tallaght etc. into city center

Victor

Originally posted by dmeehan
i think it would need "super" capacity to act as a shuttle between the two mainline/commuter stations as well as carry people from tallaght etc. into city center

I suspect what they will do is have say a 5-10 minute frequency out to Tallaght, but twice that frequency between Heuston and Connolly.

sligoliner

:There was an article in the Irish Times yesterday on the Phoenix :Park tunnel. What are the bets they read boards.ie

It's possible. However the guy who wrote the original article published the plan months ago before there even was a transport group on bords.ie

STaN

What was the article about?

This is where a www.ireland.com subscription comes in handy

Occidental

Big problem with high frequency via the Park tunnel to Connolly is the platform configuration at Connolly. At the moment Sligo/Maynooth trains have to cross the DART lines before entering the station. This causes long delays inbound to Connolly and would be unviable for a more regular service.

sligoliner

> You can't run diesel trains underground. Doh

Tell that to the passengers on the 50+ diesels trains that pass through the 3 mile tunnel between Manchester and Stalybridge every day. Not to mention the tunnel to Cork and the hundreds of tunnels with diesels services the world over.

None of them have died yet.




doh! yourself einstein.

Victor

Someone was looking for the 1973 plan, it looked something like the attached purple lines (the orange lines are the old trams lines). The loop line would have been used for intercity only tunnels would have extended from Merrion Gates through Baggot Stephens Green to Temple Bar. Clondalkin and Tallaght would have been served off the Cork mainline. The coast (DART) line was included. I can't remember what they were planning for Cabra, but it did seem odd. The rest is a bit blurry (I haven't seen the map in 10 years)

Woden

Would there be an issue with noise if trains where running so frequently underneath the park, i forgot about the line under the park its only a couple of minutes up the road from me. How deep underground is the tunnel?

GerardKeating

quote:

---

There are two lines, one elevated, one in a cutting, between Cabra and Connolly. The lower one is currently being redone.

---

>> Yes, but for what reason ?

They were built by different railway companies.

De Rebel

Unable to link, sorry.

Irish Examiner (Online) 16/04/03

Tunnel upgrade costs €75m. But rail chiefs plan to spend €1bn on new one


By Michael O’Farrell

IARNRÓD ÉIREANN must explain why it plans to spend €1 billion on a tunnel under the river Liffey after it emerged using an existing route under the Phoenix Park would cost €925m less.


The Strategic Rail Review (SSR), published two weeks ago, said proposals to link Dublin’s Heuston and Connolly stations via a new rail line would require a new tunnel under the river Liffey.

However, an independent rail infrastructure lobby group, Platform 11, told an Oireachtas Transport Committee yesterday that routing traffic through the existing Phoenix Park tunnel, through Phibsborough, Drumcondra and on to Connolly would cost just €75m.

Platform 11’s Brian Guckian said it made no sense to waste public money on unnecessary rail projects in Dublin when the rest of the country’s rail infrastructure was badly in need of investment.

“The cost of doing this is at a fraction of the cost of the Iarnród Éireann plan,” he said.

The Phoenix Park tunnel is only used for freight traffic. However, the line has recently been upgraded to handle passenger trains.

Platform 11 believes the line could cater for trains at five minute intervals in both directions. Journey time between Heuston and Connolly would be between 12 and 20 minutes.

Thomas Sheridan, of Platform 11’s steering group, told the Oireachtas committee the Phoenix Park line could link all of Dublin’s major rail stations to form an urban, integrated system allowing connections between InterCity trains and commuter services. New stations could also be opened up in heavily populated areas, he said.

“For decades, Dublin rail commuters and InterCity travellers have longed for the day they could take the train between Heuston Station and Connolly station,” he added.

After yesterday’s meeting, the Oireachtas committee agreed it would ask Iarnród Eireann to explain the reason for a new tunnel.

“If it does work then the State is going to save itself a vast amount of money,” committee chairman Eoin Ryan said.

Fine Gael transport spokesperson Denis Naughten called on Transport Minister, Seamus Brennan to scrap the Liffey tunnel plan and consider the cheaper route.

“Imagine if all who traipse in from Kildare/Sallins, were able to get to the DART line at Connolly via Heuston Station, Phibsborough and Drumcondra. This would be a new watershed in public transport in Dublin,” he said.

dmeehan

wait for it
irish rail will probs come out and say that there is no demand for a rail service between heuston and connolly:rolleyes:

Victor

Originally posted by Dataisgod
Would there be an issue with noise if trains where running so frequently underneath the park, i forgot about the line under the park its only a couple of minutes up the road from me. How deep underground is the tunnel?

No, there would be no real noise issue. Who are they going to disturb? The deer?

Woden

Long story but here it goes, when i was younger my grand father was a garda and he used to live in the houses at the entrance of the phoenix park just inside the gate near the depot, to the best of my knowledge the track passes directly under that area as you can hear every train go by as it rumbles through underground, thats fine for infrequent freight trains but i can't imagine the current residents being happy about been woken at 6.30 in the morning by trains going up and down the track every 5 minutes?

flangeman

Feck 'em, sure when they bought the house there was a railway next door, what do they expect. I can't even entertain that stuff. Much like the residents of Lansdowne road, whom bought a house next door to a stadium and then start complaining about noise and crowds?? JEASUS what did they expect?

But they got away with it, by lobbying for no music after nightfall and specific amount of games played each year.

sligoliner

Railcars are not as noisy as diesel locos hauling freight empty wagons. The engine is much smaller and under the floor. The suspension is better as well and all IE's railcars fall well within the EU requirements for noise and vibration levels as they are practically new anyway.

Secondly, these NIMBYS are out of control. In Frank McDonald's book on Dublin - when the DART was first announced 100 objections were lodged against it by non-resident landlords many of whom lived in places like Kerry, Boson and one in Cape Town.

Anyway, as soon as they realise that property prices along the route of the d-Connecter will go up on average by 20%, they'll stop their whinging.

Remember the CLUe-AS episode in Inchicore?

jd

Originally posted by Dataisgod
but i can't imagine the current residents being happy about been woken at 6.30 in the morning by trains going up and down the track every 5 minutes?

tough titty
as it is i guess locosrunat antisocial hours for service to inchicore+freight liners run at late /early hours too

sligoliner

The Platform11 site has added some new stuff about the
d-Connertor project:

http://www.platform11.org/spencer.jpg
http://www.platform11.org/workstunnel.jpg
http://www.platform11.org/lower.jpg

MDR

Is there any chance that we could get someone from CIE to come over to the boards and engage, whats there take on the connector ... from what I can see its nuts that its not been used, my GF gets the Train from Belfast to Limerick quite regularily, why is there a Number 90 bus when there is available track ?

sligoliner

You're dealing with a company that is completely institutionalised at the mangement level. They do things based on how it has always been done, rather than how it should (or could) be done. Connolly has capacity used up because they still use the orginal Victorian rosters from the Great Northern Railway. Trains sit on Platform becuse this is what the Great Northern Railway did. It's nuts. They run the Wexford trains across the loop line into Connolly even though there are three unused passenger platforms at Pearse and then complain about capacity on the Loop. The Park Tunnel is a "works tunnel" to them - they cannot see it any other way and they don't want to. When they get caught out on any of they gob****ery they then play the victim complex and scream about deaceds of undervestment in the railways while at the same time they are hiring advertising and marketing agencies to make expensive TV ads. It just goes on and on and on.

It's been like this for decades:

http://www.platform11.org/seven.html

sceptre

Originally posted by MDR
Is there any chance that we could get someone from CIE to come over to the boards and engage

I suspect it's as likely to happen as Eircom engaging their customers on the IOFFL board but I'd like to be proved wrong.

sligoliner

CIE did have their moment:

http://www.platform11.org/dart1.html

But then look how they operate today:

http://www.platform11.org/capacity.html


There Not There Yet...

dmeehan

back on topic (the tunnel)
just found this on the msn group Irish Railway News:
http://groups.msn.com/IrishRailwayNews/themythexposedphoenixpark.msnw

clearly, passenger trains can fit through the phoenix park tunnel so its about time that Irish Rail ran some passenger services through the tunnel

GerardKeating

Originally posted by dmeehan

clearly, passenger trains can fit through the phoenix park tunnel so its about time that Irish Rail ran some passenger services through the tunnel [/B]

It was used for a scheduled service up to two years ago, there was a Sunday only Galway-Drogheda service.

gerard

Victor

I found a copy of the schematic of the original DART plans. I'll scan it and post it up later (from Engineer's Journal 1/1984).

Scottish

This may be off topic, but I just saw the platform11.org site for the first time, and I knew it was bad, but not that bad. That website should be required reading for the transport minister and the eejits that run the railways. As usual, the Irish consumer/Taxpayer is getting stiffed.

I have travelled twice on inter-city rail here since I moved to Ireland 7 years ago. That is mainly due to the dire warnings I received from people. However, I tried to get to Kerry one recent Bank Holiday, and couldn't believe what I experienced. No ticket allocation, so the train had been massively oversold. A near riot at the platform, as some people had been there all day (this was mid afternoon when I arrived) and couldn't get on the the train. There were about 8 guards/ticket people there (unbelievable - why so many?). The upshot was that they put us on a train to Mallow, and then a bus from there to Kerry. I was recovering from a slipped disc, and had to stand near the toilets for the entire journey to Mallow. It was worse than travelling in India (which I have done by train quite a bit) as at least they reserve you a seat there!

On a final note, should platform11 not get a place in the activism section of boards, such as IOFFL has? Just a thought.

Good luck to whoever is behind this site - you are going to need it!

Victor

Schematic attached