Losing my religion...

ThreadKiller

I don't mean this thread to be a slagging match of religions etc & if it gets down to that I'll ask for it to be removed, but I'm open to some "spiritual" debate, if you'll allow me.

Some background on me... I'm early 30s non practising catholic. I'm getting married in 3 months time & we're going for the whole works - big church wedding (mainly because of my partner), I'd get married anywhere if it meant I was married to her...

Now someone raised the point over theweekend that I'm being hypocritical (sp?) about getting married in a church when I don't even practise my religion, this got me thinking about why I don't practice it...

Originally I think it may have been as much about laziness and apathy as anything else, I do know that I felt particularilly bad about a lot of the Catholic church "doings" that have come out in the last couple of years... Then during a discussion with my partner last week after the stuff going on with my dad (there's a possibility he may have prostate cancer), I think I said something along the lines of not believing in a God that would allow something like that to happen to a good man like Dad. (I'm paraphrasing)

I believe in the basics of the church, I don't believe in being preached to (a personal God if you will), it's my interpretation of my religion that I believe in...

Don't know what I set out to ask now... Am I being hyprotical ? Do you practise your religion (religiously) ? Should I be going back to my religion ?

Beruthiel

... Am I being hyprotical ?

who gives a crap really??!!
you said you'd do it anywhere for her, if she wants the church thingie and you are happy with that, then off you go. If you were totally against it for some reason or other, that's a different story. However, you don't seem that bothered, do what your heart and her's wants the most, feck the begrudgers and people telling you what their opinion is on the matter, none of their bee's wax!

Should I be going back to my religion ?

why?
do you want to and if so, why??
this is not a question for us to be answering, it is entirely up to you

mooman_00

i dont consider myself religous at all anymore. i gave up on my religon around 5th 6th class when it was cooler to smoke fags out back then actually go in to mass and listen, but i have never gone back, not because i still think its 'uncool' to go to mass but because i find i have absoutley no want or need for a religious element in my life. I think you should ask yourself do you find being religious any benifet or comfort in your life. If you do than you should continue being religious in whatever way make you happy, but if you dont then dont, you should never be religious for someone else nor should you be religious if it is an unwanten burden...also you should maybe look at other religions they might appeal to you more...i cant think of anything else to say so thats my opinion...

Saruman

Are you loosing your faith in RELIGION or God?? Or both??

Contrary to what religions want you to believe, the two do not go hand in hand. Faith in God is seperate to a Political organisation or religion as people call them.

Have a talk with Dev as he has some interesting thoughts on the subject. He has a thread floating around somewhere that you might want to read too.

Xterminator

I'd say its perfectly healthy and normal to question 'The Way Things Are'!

God knows it was probably all the blind faith, and blind loyalty to the church, which allowed all the bad things to happen.

As for whether it hypocritical to use a church, i'd say not really.

In ireland you are quite limited as to where you can get married, and lets face it, for a reasonable fee, the church will perform the ceremony.

P.S. I dont know if you have already arranged it with the priest, but before they married me and my wife, the priest made us go to 'classes' where they taught us about how to share money, and housework etc. About the basics of relationships such as communications and dealing with Inlaws etc.

Which would proably be fine except we were living together for 8 years first! What a poitless load of cr/\p!

And this was mandatory, ie no class no wedding.


X

coco

its better than losing your virginity

pyramid man

now on a totally different topic here are the lyrics of losing my religion by rem. and a lovely picture of micheal stipe to go along with it.


Life is bigger
It's bigger than you
And you are not me
The lengths that I will go to
The distance in your eyes
Oh no I've said too much
I set it up

That's me in the corner
That's me in the spotlight
Losing my religion
Trying to keep up with you
And I don't know if I can do it
Oh no I've said too much
I haven't said enough
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try

Every whisper
Of every waking hour I'm
Choosing my confessions
Trying to keep an eye on you
Like a hurt lost and blinded fool
Oh no I've said too much
I set it up

Consider this
The hint of the century
Consider this
The slip that brought me
To my knees failed
What if all these fantasies
Come flailing around
Now I've said too much
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try

But that was just a dream
That was just a dream

GoneShootin

SHUT UP COCO

that very remark depends on the viewpoint of each person as to what they hold more dearly

i gave up church going when i was 19. just didnt see the point really. i sometimes envy those who have a faith that can give them comfort in bad times.

getting married in a church etc is NOT AT ALL hypocritical. in many different cultures the idea of marraige is the celebration of the unity of two people. catholisicm threw in "under god" at the end to make it unique to their faith. which is grand.

as i said, im not practising the religion i was born into. but ill be damned if i dont get married in a church. its far too much fun not to ! all of your friends and people you love in under the one roof to see you seal your commitment is nothing short of fantastic

and im only 21 !

ThreadKiller

Originally posted by Xterminator
I dont know if you have already arranged it with the priest, but before they married me and my wife, the priest made us go to 'classes' where they taught us about how to share money, and housework etc. About the basics of relationships such as communications and dealing with Inlaws etc.

Which would proably be fine except we were living together for 8 years first! What a poitless load of cr/\p!

And this was mandatory, ie no class no wedding.

Something else I object to.

I've already cancelled one ourse, there's no way I'm paying to do one. if they want me to do it they can pay for it.

ferdi

dont go to church cause i dont believe in religion and mass bores the b*ll*x off me:)

i believe in something that cant be explained but i dont know what i ts cause.... well, cause it cant be explained!

so what if people say your being xyz for marry'n in a chuch, if it makes you and herslf happy then thats all that matters.

ferdi

paniniter

same thing was sais to me recently about marraige in a church.
thing is, people don't put much empasis on religion in thier lives anymore. very few people regularly go to church now, but still go to functions in the church, like weddings, funerals, christenings etc., because they're about love, mourning, celebration of a new life. it's ok to get married in a church even if you're not a practising christian, it happens everyday.

Stanley_kubrick

I dont wanna get married cuz i dont plan to.But if i was planning i dont know,im not the religious dude.Im an atheist.Not a whole lotta love i guess.

Sarky

Regardless of whatever you may or may not believe in, you have to respect the beliefs of your significant other. If your belief in the non existance of a god is so deep that you can't do it in a church, do it somewhere nice and ask for the ceremony to be changed a little- You can swear on whatever you hold most dear instead of a god you don't believe in.

Stanley_kubrick

Thanx dude:D

thedrowner

as beruthial said, i dont think you are being hypocritical, as it's not like your fionce is asking you to do anything you dont strongly believe in. i'm vaguely religious....i don't really go along with some of the catholic churches views, but i sing for my local church which might be viewed as hypocritical. but i don't have any strong beliefs against the catholic church so it's not really a problem for me. if it was something i really did believe in, then it's be a different story.

Doodee

well, i wouldnt call myself a model christian, in fact, i rarely go to mass, OPften i was forced or bribed by my grandmother who took her religion very seriously.

Does this mean i am not a christian, absaloutely not.

The fact is, and any proper priest should explain this, As long as you believe in god, and thank/praise him in your own way, you are still a christian.

Fact is that christianity isnt a College, you dont get kicked out if you dont show up, or miss a few. AS long as you acknowledge YOUR faith, in your OWN way, and thank him.

by this i mean, I dont not attend mass, nor do i give to the church, I do however have a chain around my neck, which i kiss everytime after blessing myself, I will bless myself when i pass a church or religious artifact, simply to do with acknowledging God, and his places of worship. I will thank him when i believe he has an influence in something in my life and I will ask him for help, in the form of a prayer. I do have a set prayer for myself, which is special to me, but i do not say the Rosary. If/When I do get married, i shall not mind where i get married, to who, and what religion they are, as I know myself that i am doing nothing wrong by doing something my own way.

Please remember the most important fact, that when u get married, its not a religious thing, sure the mass is there for your blessing, but not all marrages last, therefor they cant all be blessed. Your are, when marrying, acknowledging the fact that you wish to spend the rest of your life with the selected person, be it in the eyes of god or not.

If we did everything according to the rules of the church, then we would be contradicting the teachings of Jesus, as it was he who said that God is forgiving reguardless of your circumstances, providing you accept responcibility for your sins/actions by connfession, which doesnt even have to be hosted/listen to by a priest. You confess to your god. and that is it.

im sleepy and sick, and wanna do more browsing before i head home.

smiles

Right as to the pre-wedding course thing.

Afaik the priest isn't meant to marry you if you don't do it.

Basically the idea is that you get to talk about some issues and things that some couples overlook and just dont ever think about - basically it's to see if you really are serious about each other and whether or not the relationship will work out, because they don't want to marry you if it's just going to fall apart.

It's a good idea in theory, if you've already lived with the person for years, well i guess it isn't really going to make much difference.

Are you hypocritical? Well that all depends on whether or not you actually believe in God or in your particular religion.

Do you feel _bad_ about getting married in a church when you don't practise your religion? If yes, then you're being hypocritical, if you don't care then there's not an issue.

<< Fio >>

evie

Threadkiller, you should have a sconce at the Ash Wednesday Poll on the Humanities board, there are some interesting issues raised!

I think that people these days practice their religion in their own way. My Grandmother recently revealed to me that she only goes to mass to talk to God and not to listen to the fella standing at the top of the church. This has a lot to do with recent revelations about children and the Church but that's another thread altogether!

Anyway, you seem to be getting married in the church only to please your future wife. An honorable gesture in my opinion. Some would say a truly Christian gesture! I having not attended mass since about the age of 15 would have no authority to give an opinion that you are being hypocritical. TBH I don't think you are in any way. You have made it clear that you aren't big into religion, this is a clear statement. By getting married in a church, you are making another clear statement to your future wife and family about just how much she means to you. This ain't nothing to do with religion!

As I said, everyone (I think) has their own interpretation of religion and how they practice it. You believe in the basics, as you have said, and it is clear that you adhere to them by doing what you are doing.

Don't let people tell you that what you are doing is hypocritical, ask them if they attend mass and what would they do for their other half. The response could be interesting!

Kell

Personally, when I get wed, I want the person who conducts the ceremony to be someone that both me and my significant other respect deeply and it would also be outside the confines of a church and just made legal in a separate registry office job.

I lost the faith years ago in organised religion more so than in something that holds the universe together. I dont need the crutch of a God or religion to get through the tough times, I just need me. Anyway, where was I. Oh yeah- I think it is easier being a good Christian rather than being a good practising Catholic by the way you behave in your life. Lots of non practising people shine on a human level than some who attend church regularly only to get the goss on what Mrs O'Briens daughter was up to last weekend and to sneer at someone in the second pew.

I say go for the church wedding and dont question the hypocrisy of it. If you are a good Christian and are happy to seal the deal with the creators blessing, do it and try not to get side tracked by the whole "I'm not religious so am I a hypocrite" debate as it really doesnt come into it as far as I can see.

Big Chief

Originally posted by pyramid man
now on a totally different topic here are the lyrics of losing my religion by rem. and a lovely picture of micheal stipe to go along with it.


Life is bigger
It's bigger than you
And you are not me
The lengths that I will go to
The distance in your eyes
Oh no I've said too much
I set it up

That's me in the corner
That's me in the spotlight
Losing my religion
Trying to keep up with you
And I don't know if I can do it
Oh no I've said too much
I haven't said enough
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try

Every whisper
Of every waking hour I'm
Choosing my confessions
Trying to keep an eye on you
Like a hurt lost and blinded fool
Oh no I've said too much
I set it up

Consider this
The hint of the century
Consider this
The slip that brought me
To my knees failed
What if all these fantasies
Come flailing around
Now I've said too much
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try

But that was just a dream
That was just a dream

thats exactly what i thought of when i read the thread title.. Luckily though you just saved me from typing out all the lyrics

Silent Grape

this post is actually really interesting because my sister recently got married - !shock! - under some trees!

my mother i(60) is straight laced Catholic, on every commitee thats going, type of woman. which can be scary when ur 19 and figuring out whatsfor you and whats not, so the pressure from my mum jsut makes me associate religion and mass etc with her force of catholiscism. so i dont want to go to mass anymore. not because i have lost my faith in God or in priests or anyone in the religious life, but only because of the god awful pressure and force my mum uses to make me go. i might try going to a different church fromher or a different time mass bacause i really cant handle it any more.

but im just saying to everyone, that if u lost ur faith or whatever because u were a teenager and bored, try going a long to mass once or twice and participate in it and u never know what might happen.


ANYWAY! back on point: my sister doesnt' practise anymore. she believes in God but is of no structured religion. she's quite into her healing crystals and all that jazz. so she a;lso thought it wud be hypocritical to get married in a church. but anyway. her husband was never taught anything about God or religion or anything so he didnt have a clue. (he's now reading the bible) after many fights with mum, they ended up having a state marriage on a boat, and the next day having a beautiful ceremony type thing where they made their own vows up themselves and everything, and they had a priest friend to conduct it, though he could officially marry them as he was 'cast ou' becuase he was rallying too much for women priests and upsetting the bishops or whoever. anyway, mum got her way, (having the priest) and my sister and her husband got their way by getting married outside and a state marriage.

sorry for how long that post was!

Éomer of Rohan

I must admit that the situation with Silent Grape sounds so familiar it is unreal; My mother is a Catholic but around about age 15, when I got serious about politics, I told her I didn't want to go to Mass anymore simply because I didn't believe - and it is true; I don't believe but I am just wondering, does anyone in a similar situation not feel a little less fulfilled for it?

Gearoid

Lately I tried to give up mass unsuccesfully because apparently the republic dosen't guarantee civil and religious liberties until after ur 18, til then its wat ur parents say. . u here of people long ago dropping their pagan religions to join catholicism but in my opinion that means that their original religions must have been doubly crap!

Carbiens

doodee, you share the same feelings as a lot of people who call themselves christian. if what you said, you really do, or believe then let me congratulate you or at least admire your faith in what you believe.

i had a big long thread planned and had a lot to say, but when i read it again it seemed to insult a lot of people and encourage trolling so im going to leave it at this.

maybe some other time

Gordon

This is probably better off here than in PI.

ThreadKiller

Why was it moved to humanities ? It's a Personal Issue that's why I put it there...

& thanks to all the balanced replies

bonkey

I'm not religious. Well, more correctly....I am officially still part of a church, but I do not believe in God, nor in the teachings of any organised religion that I have ever heard of.

So....getting married in a church....what would be my take....if I were engaged.....

Well, there a couple of things. First of all, it has to be something acceptable to both people. If my wife-to-be insisted that I do X, Y, and Z, regardless of my opinion, then I would probably say no straight away, because in my belief no marriage can be based on "musts". It should be about compromise when there's a difference. Even if it was something I was willing to compromise on, I would have a serious problem if my fiancee ever said to me "we're going X, or its not happening".

So...would I get married in a church? Well, I'd try and get agreement for a non-denominational church, like the one on Stephens Green in Dublin. Failing that (for some reason), I would still probably agree to a "real" church wedding, as long as the bride-to-be and priest were both aware that while I would respect their religion, I do not share it. If they have no issue, then I have no issue.

As for a pre-marriage course....personally I think they should be mandated by the state, and not by the church. Fantastic idea. Yes, I've lived with my current GF for two years now, but I would still look to go on some form of marriage counselling course if and when we decided to get married.

Why? Because despite my religious disbelief, I believe in marriage being for life, and thats a serious commitment. It bears thinking about, and it bears being informed about. I know of no long-term couple who's life did not significantly change after they got married....for better or for worse. Why should I think I will be any different.

If, on the other hand, your lack of religious belief means that marriage is not for life in your eyes, then I would say that getting married in a church is both disrespectful and morally dishonest to a degree, but thats just my opinion.....I have no way of backing that up and would never apply the same standards to others.

Of course, I would also say that if you dont see it as "for life", then a marriage course is probably a waste of time for you unless you want them to try and change your mind on that one.

jc

thefibbler

I don't mean to pry because I think marriage is a wonderful thing. It is a covenant to God between two people. I think chruches are beautiful and make for a beautiful ceremony but, Religion just isn't the same as having a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. He lives within my heart and a church is really nothing more than a building. I was raised Catholic but it was not after I nearly destroyed my life by living for myself that I was introduced to a wonderful Savior. He truly changed my life. I know now what my life was missing. I still have my troubles but, I know without a doubt that he is with me always. I pray for your precious marriage and where ever you decide to marry, may your marriage be blessed.

amp

Originally posted by ThreadKiller
Why was it moved to humanities ? It's a Personal Issue that's why I put it there...

& thanks to all the balanced replies

It's a personal issue that covers the nature of religion, and we regularly discuss religion here.

neuro-praxis

It's definitely hypocritical if you lie or make promises you don't intend to keep. The venue is not an issue, it's the contents of the ceremony that matter.

Perhaps you and your fiancé could structure things so that you don't have to lie at any point?

l3rian

I was thinking that too neuro-praxis

Your not hyprotical at all, a church is probaly cheaper and better decorated that the alternatives, at least your getting some actual use out of it

I dont know about all the mentions of religious in the vows, that might be slightly hyprotical, can you specify what you want the priest to say?

Catsmokinpot

theirs the golden rules every religion has them. be a good man/woman, be kind to others, dont harm, dont steal etc. and youll be grand!! tbh it doesnt matter if you get married in a church and you dont practice your religion the fact is you believe (their goes the religious leaders making you feel guilty for not doing what they tell you to)

i dont know if i believe in the whole marriage thing yet but if people are going to get married it shouldnt matter where it takes place - you can't make the occasion more special than it allready is to you

therecklessone

Originally posted by bonkey
Failing that (for some reason), I would still probably agree to a "real" church wedding, as long as the bride-to-be and priest were both aware that while I would respect their religion, I do not share it. If they have no issue, then I have no issue.

Agree with this 100%. What many of the contributors here have failed to recognise is that the person who will perform the ceremony (i.e. the priest) might have a problem with what is taking place. Its not like the church is a community resource that is there to be used by everybody regardless of beliefs.

As for pre-marraige courses, well if thats a pre-condition set by the church authorities, and you want to use their facilities, then you just gotta swallow it.

Other than that, no you aren't being a hypocrite. You're prepared to accept an element of your wedding that you are uncomfortable with, because thats what your fiance wants. Pretty good example of compromise if you ask me.

sceptre

I've only been at one "mixed" wedding in an Irish church - came back into my mind recently when someone asked me what I'd do if I was getting married. I was baptised Catholic you see, haven't been in years, no association or affiliation with the church and I don't really believe in a god. That's why it occurred to me.

What happened that day was that it was pretty much a normal ceremony with the usual "do you reject Satan"* questions, the candle lighting and so on. When it came to eucharist doling-out time, the bride and her half did that bit, groom got a blessing (hands on head and so on). Seemed like a reasonable compromise where the Catholic bride wanted to get married to a non-Catholic groom in a Catholic church. If I had to get married in a papist church in the morning I'd probably elect to go for the same procedure.

(obviously I'd prefer not to get married at all or to do a registry office procedure or to shag off out of the counrty entirely but if I had to...)



*actually they seem to have dropped this one. They had all the other usual ones though.

ThreadKiller

I suppose I might as well update this... It's now over two months since the wedding... It was fantastic.

The Parish Priest was a bit of a stickler for tradition & sombre thoughts on the day, but that didn't matter as we didn't get him.

We got a friend of her family who I only met three weeks before hand, I sat down with him & had a good chat about how I felt. He had no problems with me at all, even answered a few questions for me & laid to rest some thoughts I'd had about the church in general.

We didn't do the Pre-Nuptial thing (something I was fiercly opposed to) as I'd had a chat with Fr. Sean beforehand he said there was no real point in doing it, we were together that long (as a couple nine years & living together three) there was most probably nothing we could take away from the pre-nup.

On the day it'self everything went to plan with the best day possible.

It makes all the difference if you get a good priest.