Ash Wednesday

Mr E

Just out of curiousity, how many of you take Ash Wednesday seriously? My mother, who I consider quite religious, followed the day to the letter - Mass, no snacks, 1 meal and 2 collations, no meat, and fish for dinner.

My beliefs are that Ash Wednesday is a dying 'tradition' (for want of a better word). Tonight I had a coffee and biscuit after dinner. My mother frowned. My argument is this - which is worse? Coffee and a biscuit, or abusing young children?

(Yeah, back to that old argument - sorry. I think its unavoidable when discussing religion these days.)

Any thoughts?

- Dave.

sceptre

It is a bit unavoidable - especially if you get frowned at for having a biscuit:)

It's a tradition - nothing more, nothing less. As someone who doesn't see any significance in (fairly insignificant) traditions, I don't really see the point. As you say with "which is worse" there isn't much point in emphasising an old tradition over actually carrying the "good person, good works" idea.

Fasting for one day really isn't much of a sacrifice really. That's a statement that one could probably interpret as supporting the fasting or disregarding it. From above, you can see that I don't see the point. Want to make some sacrifice to commemorate a sacrifice that may have happened 2000 years ago? Go help a homeless person, help an old lady across the street, do a few hours for the Samaritans. Or fast for the day if that's your thing. If you choose the fasting option, some contemplation (without moaning) might be in order though. And no giving your son dirty looks because he likes a Jaffa cake with his coffee:)

I ticked the "eat everything, drink everything, what, there's a church in town?" box btw. As it happens, I had one cup of coffee and a scone today and that was all. By coincidence, I had fish for my dinner (I didn't realise it was Ash Wednesday till I read your post so I'm peeved at having skipped the Shrove pancakes too*) but I didn't eat it till a few minutes ago (it's now 1:20am) so technically that would be outside the day as well.

So for anyone who did the whole fast thing today out of habit (rather than religious conviction) and didn't do some comtemplation about why, you've managed just as much as a (probably committed) humanist/atheist who didn't even notice that today/yesterday was Ash Wednesday:D.

Short answer Dave: you're right. Actually living a good life etc (including doing what you preach) is far more important than just going through the motions of any traditions or procedures made up at or since the Council of Nicea.

If the Ash Wednesday tradition is important to someone, good for them. Like anything religious these days though, it's a personal thing for them, just as it's a personal thing for someone who's abandoned the practice, whether they retain their religious beliefs or not. If you've retained yours, at whatever organised level, and being a thinking type with a bit of copon, I'm pretty sure you thought that Jesus couldn't give a damn whether you have a biscuit or not as it wouldn't make any difference to him or anyone else. I'm sure a psychologist or philosopher would say that the only person the biscuit-eating can make any difference to is the person eating it. A dietician would be saying the same thing. Fasting for a day? That's easy. Treating people with respect and trying to make the world a better place every other day - that's hard.


*GF is away for another six weeks. I suppose I could get my own pancakes:)

xx

I lost my religion ages ago (dunno if I'm agnostic, atheist or whatever) so I don't give a fiddlers about Ash wednesday. Rest of the family are pretty religious though. Nearly had a war with me mum yesterday over........a ham sandwich. Yep, that was it. She was giving me the whole "religious observance" routine and I was giving her the old "don't force your beliefs on me" thing. I ended up having it anyway, and a few more besides, and she said nothing. A small victory, but a victory nonetheless!

Bard

I have no faith in the Catholic church and so Ash Wednesday has very little or no meaning to me. I didn't go to mass. I smoked, I ate, I had snacks.

Talliesin

When I was a child (my parents are Catholic) I loved Ash Wednesday, and Good Friday because fish was my favourite dinner

I don't think Ash Wednesday is dying out. I do think that we are no longer a religious monoculture here, so doing anything for the sake of form, as opposed to actually believing in it, has died out.

DeVore

Why would anyone want to believe in or worship a God who is swayed by, seeks, or requires his "followers" to deprive themselves or punish themselves in his name.

Its like those loonies who climb croagh patrick in their bare feet and "offer up the pain to God".

If I was God I'd be all like "euw! I dont want your pain, get lost weirdo..."

DeV.

DapperGent

I get an insurmountable urge to punch the people with dusty foreheads in the face.

I usually stay at home and finish off the pancakes.

Typedef

I'm mildly aware that the ash on the head, has some sort of religous intonations for Catholics, but, I thought Ash Wednesday was Ash "Tuesday", which is kind of strange, because at least in theory I should really know all about this since I did the Baptism, Communion and Confirmation thing.

Basically, all this religous stuff is for me at any rate, one of the few times, I can confirm that otherwise intellegent people can be brow beaten into 'believing' without a shred of evidence in a god.

I need evidence, because without it, god doesn't exist.
qed.
no pun.

Lafortezza

Originally posted by Typedef

Basically, all this religous stuff is for me at any rate, one of the few times, I can confirm that otherwise intellegent people can be brow beaten into 'believing' without a shred of evidence in a god.

you say it likes its always a bad thing to believe, without proof, in something that can make you happy

DeVore

I dont think blind faith is a problem. Believe in what you want to believe. I think its nuts but hey, maybe they'll be laughing while I burn in hell...

The problems arise when
1. People are manipulated and mistreated by charlatans as Shinji terms them.
2. People enforce their religious beliefs on others.
3. People enforce their religious beliefs in laws of societies.
4. When religion preaches hate.
5. When intolerance because of religious difference or lack of religion causes conflict.


If you want to walk around with ash on your forehead, go for it, I'll be the first in line to defend your right to do it.


DeV.

Jes'Shout!

If you don't believe in the tradition and purpose of the events of Ash Wednesday. then don't participate, have a biscuit with ham and a pint to chase it down. The good Lord knows that there's more than enough hypocrites like myself cluttering up the pews at Mass. If you don't understand the purpose of the practise, then respect yourself enough to learn about it with an open mind before you write it off or cast judgement on it.

Personally, I really like to eat. On Ash Wednesday, I don't. I get really, really hungry and then when I contemplate the pain in my gut I am more grateful that I don't have to starve everyday like millions of other people in the world. Further, I'm moved by my own small experience to actually do something pro-active to help the hungry and the homeless; and I don't mean just dropping a donation in a box, I mean getting involved in the unpleasantness of homelessness and hunger. It never hurt anybody to give enough of a damn that they managed to get their hands dirty helping out.

I agree with the person who said that it's easy to fast for a day but hard to do do what is right & compassionate every day. It is an every day challenge to be a decent human being. However, for some, the seemingly meaniningless rituals such as those happening on Ash Wednesday help to keep them on track. Being a decent human being is something you have to practise daily; rituals help to sustain the practise. In a simplistic sense, it's not much different than the constant practise it takes to be a good artist, athelete, musician, or physician.

But to each his own. We just have respect one another's right to think as we do.

So there's my two quid.

DeVore

JesShout thats great, if it makes you grow as a human and think about stuff like world-hunger... then I'm all for it. (I dont know if you were addressing me or someone else btw).

The problems arise when people who are otherwise bad people consider themselves absolved from being good people because of the tradition *itself*.

As you have pointed out there are enough hypocrites on the benchs who beat their chest and exclaim "mei culpa mei culpa mei maxima culpa" but who walk out the door and consider their duty to their god and man done.

And I have studied the catholic faith and I know the ceremonies and traditions, just as I know the ceremonies and traditions of a number of the other major faiths.

Why do I need to fast to realise that we should do something about the third world (and I do, I'm just not trotting it out here).
Or the homeless?

If you read this you'll see I used this idea again, but I clarified that if you are using the experience to grow or test yourself or just to have done something like that so that you think about the situation... *great*.

Many of us dont need such stimuli and think about those things anyway.

As I said, I'm all for respecting your religious beliefs if you are willing to respect mine.

DeV.

Manach

So, as at present one of the 2 who voted the top option, a few quick points based on nothing more than my own opinion/experience.

Ash Wednesday is not a traditional but part of canon law that it's part of the Catholic creed to follow.

It is part of giving up a luxury food for Lent, which I would do, but to be very honest it is more part of a diet, so I'd agree with Jes'Shout about my failing on that topic

No one is forcing me to do this, it was a personal choice. Later one at work, I did not notice anyone else with the sign but I was not looking and as far as could tell, no one commented on my own.

Finally, thanks Devore for your defence of my option to make myself look silly, considering as my Church has brought the world the Crusades, The Holy Office, and Dana (shudder).

Jes'Shout!

Hi DeV,

Thanks for your response. I apologize for all of the cut and paste I'm going to use in this post (C&P always seems a little impersonal) but I wanted to get back with you right away. First off, my post wasn't really directed at anyone in particular, I was just throwing out some food for thought. I'd like to address a few points in your post, just to promote understanding and for no other reason.

FROM MY POST:
"We just have respect one another's right to think as we do".
FROM YOUR POST:
"As I said, I'm all for respecting your religious beliefs if you are willing to respect mine."

It sounds like we are on the same page on the above mentioned point. (A good start for sure!)
__________________________________

FROM YOUR POST:
"The problems arise when people who are otherwise bad people consider themselves absolved from being good people because of the tradition *itself*.

I agree 100%. Going through the rituals and adhering to a tradition doesn't mean a thing if it isn't done with a heart that seeks to bring love and compassion into the world. Anyone who thinks that a series of prescribed behaviours alone are going to make them a "good" person is nuts. I could go out into the streets every day of my life and clean the wounds of the dying but would that make me a good person? No, not if I was doing it for any other reason than for the reason of love for my fellow human being. Without love and compassion, the act is merely a helpful exercise. (This is not to say that the act in itself doesn't serve a very important purpose.)
_________________________________
FROM YOUR POST:
"Why do I need to fast to realise that we should do something about the third world........"

DeV, I doubt that you would need to fast to come to this realisation. By your posts, you appear to be a very intelligent and thinking person who cares about people. Most people, on some level, have the ability to care about others who are suffering. As you know, the big question to ask is how does a person go from knowing and caring on a mental level to doing and caring on a soul level (I use "soul" here for the lack of a better term.)
______________________________________
FROM YOUR POST:
"Many of us don't need such stimuli and think about those things anyway"

I agree; actually, to go further, most people don't need to fast to think about world hunger and homelessness.
______________________________________

Now, DeV this is where our paths of thinking might go in different directions, but as we both said in the beginning, people should be allowed to have their own religious and spiritual beliefs. Although what I am about to propose, really doesn't fall under the category of any one religion:

You know when you have a friend and somebody very dear to that friend dies, you try to comfort your friend. You try to understand your friend's pain and you want to give your friend relief in their sadness. Even if you have never lost someone that you loved deeply, you are still able to be there for your friend. But if at sometime in your life you had previously experienced the death of a loved one, you would be able to understand your friend's suffering in a different way. You would be better equipped by your experience to enter into your friend's suffering more deeply. You would be able to be even more compassionate in the true definition of the word because you had experienced a similar suffering yourself. The same goes for illness. If someone you know is facing a life threatening illness, you can still give him very meaningful support and compassion even if you have never faced a similar situation. If you have faced a similar situation, you can understand your friend's fears, sorrows and pain so much more clearly than if you have never faced such a situation.

So what about fasting. In many ways it offers a little more understanding on what it means to go without something that you need to live. I know what it's like to go a month with only water and juice. It feels miserable. After a long fast, your mind gets numb. I can't imagine what it would be like to go without any substantial food for literally years. And to watch your children starve while you are starving, what horror!. Through a fast, I can only open a small hole in my heart to begin to be more compassionate on a soul level with those who starve ever day of their lives. And I always have the option of ending my fast if I can't deal with it. How horrible it must be to have no choice, to feel like no one cares. For me, fasting helps to increase my awareness of the more important things in life. It unclutters mind of a lot of stuff that doesn't amount to a damn. Does fasting make me a "good" person? No, it doesn't. I can only hope that it helps me to become a little better person, a more compassionate person. It's simply something that I do. It works for me but that isn't to say that it has any value to anyone else.

One a side note: Now I'm going to run the risk of pissing Catholics off but who cares, in my opinion, the Catholic laity should have gotten pissed off a long time ago. I am Catholic but I think that over the past two thousand years many in the Catholic hierarchy have really messed up an institution founded on a good idea. So does that mean I say "Screw you all, I'm not going to play on your playground anymore!"? No way, they aren't getting off that easily, I plan to stick around and be a pain in the arse when it's necessary. Some might call me a hypocrite, some might call me a heretic; I just say, don't call me late for supper!

I don't see us as so different in our thinking, DeV. It seems that we both would like to see a more humane, compassionate world where the dignity of all human beings is important. We want a world where people think beyond the noses on their faces. We want a world where people can be accepted for who they are and where all people respect another's right to an opinion. (I apologize if I've taking too much liberty in summing up I perceive to be you position.)

Best regards to you!

DeVore

Nope, that would pretty much be my position.

Fasting because it helps you understand or grow is one thing.... walking up Croagh Patrick in bare feet serves what purpose? Feelings of brotherhood and understanding with people walk barefoot everyday on steep mountains??

I think some catholics *like* beating themselves up sometimes, something about misery defines some need in them.

DeV.

swiss

I didn't even know Ash Wednesday was ash wednesday when ordering breakfast that day. I went into the college, absolutely starved, and ordered a mammoth (fry) breakfast.

In retrospect, it was pretty funny. I asked for a sausage (as well at the usual breakfast paraphenalia), and when the woman serving me tentatively asked "a sausage?", I thought about it and said "Okay, two sausages".

Now personally I wasn't put out that I broke the observance of an old catholic tradition, after all if I had put more stock in such traditions I probably would not have been so lax as to have made that error.

I have absolutely no problem with people observing the catholic tradition of Ash Wednesday. What I don't like are those who adopt a 'holier than thou' mentality as a direct result of causing themselves suffering. The true point of enduring fasting on lent, if any, is that put forward by Jes'Shout! IMO (excellent post btw). However, I would be very reluctant to suggest that anyone should intentionally create suffering for themselves, no matter how mild, for the sake of trying to better understand the suffering of others. If people want to do so - then by all means I am willing to respect that choice. The only problem I have is that sometimes the dogmatic influence of 'religious' sources can coerce people into observing these old traditions, losing their special meaning for some people.

evie

Didn't really ttake much notice of Ash Wednesday, partly because I forgot and partly because I couldn't be bothered! I think I did last year but something strange happened me this Summer!

I visited my grandparents in August and spent the weekend in a little place called Ardmore with them. My Grandmother has just turned 80 and, as far as I was concerned, a deout Catholic - ie mass everyday, strict following of certain customs on certain days etc. Usually when I stay in Ardmore, I pretend to go to mass to keep the oldies happy. The conversation we had at dinner following the "mass attendance" shocked me.

My Grandmother stated that she wouldn't blame me for not going to mass (she knew??). She said that she had lost all faith in the Catholic church. She explained that when she was a gal that they had to confess anything that they may have "done" in the course of a relationship, single or married. She said how upset she was that how in the last few years, all these scandals have come out. She feels betrayed and hurt. She says she now goes to mass to talk to God, anything that the priest does is by the way and she doesn't pay much attention.

Imagine after 80 years of your life loosing faith in an institution you had put so much into.

And that is how I justify not conforming to Ash Wednesday. I didn't go to mass. I had my 3 meals plus snacks and I had a pint. It's one day that seems to change date every year. *** it's really not that important to me. I think that you follow your faith in your own way. My Gran has had to change her way after 80 years. I think I'll just do it my own way and avoid the hassle later!

Whatever!

Lafortezza

Originally posted by evie
Imagine after 80 years of your life loosing faith in an institution you had put so much into.

These days I think its a good thing that people don't have faith in an institution, far better to have belief in the teachings of whatever religion you decide is closest to your own personal set of morals/ideas/beliefs.

I'd say alot of people from older generations are losing heart after all the revelations of abuse, corruption and so on, I know my own parents are anyway,
as a result they still go to church but for very different reasons to the ones that they went for when they were young.

Younger generations (from boards.ie opinions anyway) seem to have their own opinions decided and tend to use the 'institutions' rules as things to help them live a good life, and not to be obeyed because the priest said it should be.

The way it should be tee bee ayche.
[edit]
why is t b h asterisked out???

DeVore

*** (test)

DeV.

Jes'Shout!

RE: "I think some catholics *like* beating themselves up sometimes, something about misery defines some need in them"

This concept is a thesis in itself. It is bizarre to me but I understand where it comes from. Many Catholics from early childhood are taught that they are "personally responsible for the sufferings of Christ." No small wonder so many Catholics have yet to experience a loving God when they have only been taught about a damning God who supposedly wants you to suffer because you are a miserable wretch of a human being. That is so twisted. Why would anyone want to be part of something like that? I guess it's no surprise people are leaving the Church in droves. Like I said before, what started as a good idea really got messed up after it was placed in the hands of man. No real surprise though, is it?! We humans have a tendency to screw things up. (I only don't have to look any further than myself to know that.)

DeVore

Jes, I think its also partly that until the 80's you were whacked biffed and slapped into believing that you were sinful and bad.
In a weird way people came to associate punishment with forgiveness and still seek today to purge sin with penance and what not...

DeV

ps: I think I've uncensored " tbh " now.... dunno how that got in there...