Welcome to the new world order Ireland

connexion

Over 1,000 peace activists protest at Shannon Warport (over use of Airport by US Military)
400 Grassroots peace campaigners attempt a mass tresspass...
but were met by Armed Detectives, The Irish Army, Special branch, Road blocks, Helicopters, Dog Units, Mounted Police, Water Cannon, you get the picture.
10 people were arrested after a standoff lasting an hour.

The good atmosphere was spoilt when the police Attacked a peace of string! - resulting in 10 arrests and the usual brave heroics from the boys in blue.

Ireland, Welcome to the new world order Ireland

http://www.indymedia.ie/

more photos :

http://www.indymedia.ie/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi?id=31724

gandalf

Oh please give me a break. I would be worried if they didn't take precautions. I am anti war as well but they should be guarding Shannon as it is a target for terrorists now.

As for whinging about not being allowed to trespass and destroy property please give that a break as well. A peaceful protest is one thing saying you are going to destroy property is another and you cannot really be surprised that the authorities did not make sure that this would happen.

If you want to make a difference then let your local TD's know about your opposition in whatever creative way you can think of (obviously without violence or damage to other property!).

Gandalf.

I tend to agree with Gandalf on this one.

MDR

Found this on IndyMedia and it made me smile, obviousily they where disappoint that seems of polices brutality where a bit thin on the ground, perhaps they should have commented on the 'over-enthusiasm' of the protestors attempting to damage property, some much for peaceful protest eh. This organisation seemed to feature quite heavily at may day riots .....

GavinS

What worries me is that the government and police force are so hopelessly inept.

Imagine if there were peace protests in Shannon, Cork and Dublin at the same time. The resources of the State could not cope.

The truth is that the government is almost incapable of securing ONE international airport, what does that say about the Irish goverment and its respective agnencies?

The goverment had to call in the ARMY to control a couple of hundred peace protesters - god help us if there were bigger protests - or worse - if they were WAR campaigners LOL

MDR

Imagine if there were peace protests in Shannon, Cork and Dublin at the same time. The resources of the State could not cope.

was there not one on Feb 15th ... about 130,000 people turned up in Dublin and more elsewhere, the Garda coped fine.

The goverment had to call in the ARMY to control a couple of hundred peace protesters

What so terrible about that ? The garda where already over-stretched in the area by the recent volience in Limerick. Why not use the Army to secure shannon ... is there an ideological problem with this ?

The Garda manage quite fine over the weekend too, I won't argue that they where undermanned initally and the planes being attacked in shannon was ridiculous but with a reduced man power they probabily did the best they could.

bonkey

Originally posted by Gavin
The goverment had to call in the ARMY to control a couple of hundred peace protesters - god help us if there were bigger protests - or worse - if they were WAR campaigners LOL

One would imagine that they would call in more of the army to assist were that the case.

Furthermore, there is absolutely nothing embarrassing or incorrect about the police calling in the army for this type of duty. I would imagine that if they instead asked for a massive increase in budget and manpower, the outcry would be deafening as soon as someone pointed out to the public that the army could be used instead of incurring this huge additional cost.

There is nothing exceptional in it being possible for a demonstration to overwhelm the capabilities of any nation to keep it under control, nor has any nation the complete capacity to safeguard all of its potentially targetted resources.

Indeed, were you to look at the logistics of it, you would find that even in a police state, this level of policing could not be done.

Therefore, its hardly a criticism.

jc

GavinS

MDR, Bonkey - I take your points on board, but I'm not sure that i fully expressed my meaning.

What i mean is that what country are we living in where the Police force could not handle 4 protestors wielding axes?

Bringing in the army is a very drastic step in any country - look at Heathrow when the British army was called in. They were only called in because of an apparent threat of a missile attack by hardened terrorists.

In Ireland - tanks, machine guns, razor wire, to stop some peace protestors, one with an axe?

Surely we should have a police force that can defend airports? A police force that can carry out basic things like defending international airports from peace protestors - nevermind terrorists.

To make a comparison, it was only after massive riots and civil upheaval that the British government decided to send troops into the north -

And yet in the Republic we send in troops after 3 days - to defend against some axe wielding peace protestors intent on bashing some US planes?

I think its a case of the government fumbling along from day to day, not having any policy, ala May day protests.

Does anyone see where Im coming from?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

mike65

Tossers, the lot of 'em (indymedia that is).

Mike.

Sand

I remember someone making a post about indy media when it was launched , praising it as being a good source of whats really going on, escaping the right wing propaganda etc etc.

God help us if were reduced to immature , hopelessly biased, laughable propaganda like this. What a bunch of muppets. Repressed? New world order? Have these lads ever ventured outside their bedrooms before?

Victor

Originally posted by connexion
The good atmosphere was spoilt when the police Attacked a peace of string!

Kindly explain this!

Originally posted by Gavin
In Ireland - tanks, machine guns, razor wire, to stop some peace protestors, one with an axe?

Eh, the Irish army doesn't have tanks and both tanks and machineguns are a bit useless in protecting an airport boundary and probably weren't deployed.

GavinS

Err sorry - last time I checked Steyr AG's were machine guns - and can kill people. As for tanks - Scorpions. I believe I did see them on RTE news - and an awful lot of razor wire.

Perhaps I am mistaken.

dahamsta

Do the Garda drive over the protestors or summat?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22Steyr+AG%22

adam

Cork

After September 11th - Our airports need protection. People caused many euros of damage to US aircraft costing the Irish taxpayer at this airport.

The security exercise was necessary and if these people had breached the fence - I think any outcome would be on their own heads.

You can't expect to get onto a runway at an airport after what happened on September 11th.

growler

a steyr is also an 9 mm automatic weapon , probably made by the same people who make the steyr personnel carriers etc. or is it too much to suppose that a company could make more than one product for the defense (aggression) industry.

anyway this is a rather pointless thread, it's not as though the irish army are feared throughout the land is it ? so if the guards are short on people due to gangwars / rugby internationals or whatever it makes perfect sense to get the lads out of their barracks to help out. h

After September 11th - Our airports need protection. People caused many euros of damage to US aircraft costing the Irish taxpayer at this airport.

Thats like trying something after its broken. Our Airports have always needed extra security. We in Ireland have a very lazy attitude towards security, and it bit us in the ass, when that aircraft was damaged in Shannon.

However, this was needed before Sept 11. Sept 11 did not create Global terrorism, it did not create extremist protestors, nor did it create the US military abroad.

The security exercise was necessary and if these people had breached the fence - I think any outcome would be on their own heads.

It came too late. They did breach the fence. They just didn't do it once the security was beefed up.

You can't expect to get onto a runway at an airport after what happened on September 11th

Cork, i don't expect them to get on a runway regardless of Sept 11. Runways tend to be dangerous places, regardless, and no-one unauthorised should be allowed near em.

Sept 11, did not create the situation. It just opened the eyes of America to Terrorism. The changes in Security in Ireland, are mostly due to the peace process in the North. If the troubles were at their height, do you really think, shannon would have been that unprotected?

Eh, the Irish army doesn't have tanks and both tanks and machineguns are a bit useless in protecting an airport boundary and probably weren't deployed.

The irish army might not have tanks, but they do have amoured personal carriers. Also there are many types of tanks out there, and the russians used tanks, that carried water cannons, for crowd dispersal. Regardless, whats the point of calling on the army if you give them cushions? They're the army. they're meant to have tanks, & machine guns. If you want unarmed security guards, go to a private security firm.

bonkey

Originally posted by Gavin
last time I checked Steyr AG's were machine guns

.

Originally posted by growler
a steyr is also an 9 mm automatic weapon , probably made by the same people who make the steyr personnel carriers etc. or is it too much to suppose that a company could make more than one product for the defense (aggression) industry.

Jesus lads...if you're gonna get into a pedantry fight, go and put "Steyr" into a search engine and find out what the hell you are talking about.

The assault rifle is the Steyr AUG, one of a large range of weapons made by Steyr-Mannlicher, who are related to the various "heavy machinery" Steyr companies (such as they who make tractors and personnel carriers)

The AUG (or one/some models of same) is the rifle used by the Irish army, hence the reference to Steyr in replacement for "machine gun".

None of which has anything to do with the topic at hand, but I dont want this pointless "oh yes it is, oh no it isnt" Punch & Judy thread continuing through this topic.

jc

dathi1

a steyr is also an 9 mm automatic weapon

its actually 45mm gas powered recoil bolt semi automatic.

dathi1

sorry bonkey...just read your post as I pressed send.

dahamsta

I thought Google asking Did you mean: "Steyr AUG" was a dead giveaway.

adam

swiss

Why I use the Steyr Aug all the time.. well that's not entirely accurate - I do use the M4A1 and AK-47 more.

http://www.halflife.host.sk/counterstrike/weapons/aug/english.html

Anyway, back on topic, I have to agree that bringing the army out to protect shannon was a prudent measure. The army are there to provide this sort of relief. Shannon, as well as being a target for 'peace' protestors, could also have been vunerable to attack should any - say less altruistic organisation have decided to use the opportunity to strike.

Originally posted by Gavin:

Does anyone see where Im coming from?

I think so. You found the response was too overbearing for the threat to shannon that the protestors posed, and likened it to occasions where peaceful protests have been put down by overbearing armed forces.

I on the other hand think it sends out a clear message that the Irish government will not tolerate destruction to property, especially that of the strategic importance of shannon airport. No matter what moral high ground peace protestors may claim to possess, destroying property is an illegal and detrimental way to attempt to furthur a cause.

So although I would not like to see the army called out to deal with every protest that takes place in this country, there are some occassions where it is warranted to make sure that those in favour of direct action are not allowed to cause wanton destruction.

DadaKopf

Jeez. It's the responsibility of a state's defense forces to maintain order and uphold the law. It should also be the responsibility of society to demand the kind of society they want. When the elected government refuses to respond to reasoned public opinion on, say, contributing to a military buildup for a war which a great proportion of the country opposes, it can be argued that protest and at times civil disobedience and the (symbolic) destruction of public property is justified. And before anyone jumps on my back claiming that this view just licenses indiscriminate destruction, it certainly does not.

MDR

Has anyone impartial actually taken a 'Should the US be allowed use Shannon' survey ... yeah/nah ? The majority of Irish people are against a war but does it necessarily follow that they object to the US military using shannon ?

I abhor volience in any society that has a proven history democracy, if you have a problem with the way the govt. runs things stand for office at the next election, put forward your case to the electorate and let the people decide.

The people elected these guys for better or worse through a wholly democratic system .... ok you may have a good point they are ignoring the electorate, as a consequence their popularity is slipping and therfore their chances at next election is slipping too.

If you need to resort to using volience of any sort, it either means

A) you aren't bothered waiting for the next election. (ie the pressing war in Iraq means you need to subvert the system)

and/or

you don't believe in the democratic process (you believe in democracy when it agrees with your opinion).

Thats my 2 cents, volience of every sort has ravaged our Island for an age, and where as I amn't accusing anyone here of condoning volience, I believe it has no place in modern Ireland.

Cork

Originally posted by DadaKopf
When the elected government refuses to respond to reasoned public opinion on, say, contributing to a military buildup for a war which a great proportion of the country opposes, it can be argued that protest and at times civil disobedience and the (symbolic) destruction of public property is justified. And before anyone jumps on my back claiming that this view just licenses indiscriminate destruction, it certainly does not.

Governments have allowed the use of Shannon for years. Even governments that socialists were apart of.

This practice has gone on for years and has been accepted by all major political partys.

Yet some politicians are jumping on this band wagon - nore power to them if they can get a few votes out of it.

DadaKopf

No...

People are opposing the use of Shannon in this instance because it's not a peace-keeping/crisis-management war. People are opposing the use of Shannon because they oppose the war in Iraq. People oppose it because it threatens Ireland's neutrality; that's not to say Ireland is prohibited from military cooperation, we just think it's best not to take sides by operating within the UN. This is a one-sided war.

Gulf War Part I was different. Bosnia-Hertzegovina was different. Kosovo was different.

Von

Originally posted by Sand
Have these lads ever ventured outside their bedrooms before?

That's somewhat ironic coming from someone who apparently spent christmas day (and probably all of valentines day as well) on these boards banging on and on about hating the french and his relatives and the public and books and christ knows who or what else.

re Indymedia. Eamonn Crudden was featured in Phoenix's Youngbloods section and it was a fairly flattering profile but they did suggest that he trim some of the content which can be wanky. The head of the arts council told me a while ago she was impressed by the site - by the DIY spirit behind it perhaps more than the content. They do ok with no resources and the regular media haven't been too shy about using some of their work anyway.

connexion

This was just a comparision for me between differnent bulletin boards in different coutries and their response to the same post

like this one compared to UK site Urban 75 ....

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34536



and this one on here at boards.ie 11 replies + 172 views

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85676


compared to.... 107 replies + 2068 views

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=32426


Intresting

Does anyone know of any more active varied political disscusion forums in Ireland ???

cheers.

shotamoose

Originally posted by connexion

compared to.... 107 replies + 2068 views

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=32426

Intresting

Does anyone know of any more active varied political disscusion forums in Ireland ???

cheers.

Well there are 60 million people in the UK, and urban75 is an exceptionally popular site on a world scale for its subject area, so that's not really a fair comparison. As far as I know, boards.ie has the busiest and most popular politics forum of any Irish site :cool: . The others that I know of are at politics.ie (just getting started) and thumped.com

connexion

Twas more the variety of opinions that i was intrested in more so than the potential to reach a large audience.

cheers for the urls

any others ?

MDR

I thought they more of less mirrored what was being voiced here,
any British who responded would only have the indymedia/sky news version of events to go on, so aren't exactly in a position to make an impartial comment really

Sand

That's somewhat ironic coming from someone who apparently spent christmas day (and probably all of valentines day as well) on these boards banging on and on about hating the french and his relatives and the public and books and christ knows who or what else.

Von, wheres this bitter, petty, hateful personal attack coming from? Dont you know that on "grown -up" boards youre supposed to attack the post and not the poster? Im a nice guy so Ill just assume youve got a lot of anger issues, and need to work on your self control and social skills. Try to use your posts to put forward, defend and evaluate opinions and cases - bitter rants against other posters arent valuable to anyone.

Heres, lets use the case/opinion you devoted a whole 50% of your post to as an example...

re Indymedia. Eamonn Crudden was featured in Phoenix's Youngbloods section and it was a fairly flattering profile but they did suggest that he trim some of the content which can be wanky. The head of the arts council told me a while ago she was impressed by the site - by the DIY spirit behind it perhaps more than the content. They do ok with no resources and the regular media haven't been too shy about using some of their work anyway.

So in summary she reckoned they were decent amateur web site designers but a rubbish news site? If this is your counter to my opinion indymedia is a laughable propaganda website then I can see why you feel you have to resort to personal attacks.

Von

Originally posted by Sand
Von, wheres this bitter, petty, hateful personal attack coming from? Dont you know that on "grown -up" boards youre supposed to attack the post and not the poster?

Scuse me, I thought that your original post indicated you were up for a bit of poster attacking. Wrong there obviously.

If you're going to slag off activists I for one would like to see it done with some spirit and humour at least, like this attack on greenpeace protesters here.

So in summary she reckoned they were decent amateur web site designers but a rubbish news site? If this is your counter to my opinion indymedia is a laughable propaganda website then I can see why you feel you have to resort to personal attacks.

No the content wasn't discussed at all cos she was talking principally about the effect the internet could have on the creation and dissemination of art and stuff and cited Indymedia as a successful example of a non-commercial cooperative international project. My point is that it's taken seriously as a source of information and sometimes acts as an interesting counterbalance to accounts of events we're more used to getting. Personally I think newswire thing is crap, it's like the Herald's 'letters' page. And I would like to see the site feature lots of tits. Like the Sindo.

Sand

Scuse me, I thought that your original post indicated you were up for a bit of poster attacking. Wrong there obviously.

If you're going to slag off activists I for one would like to see it done with some spirit and humour at least, like this attack on greenpeace protesters here.

Oh right. Hmm, well I guess then that would be exscusable except Indymedia - either collectively or independantly- havent posted on the thread as far I know so I couldnt be personally attacking a poster? As far as I understood it I was questioning the grip on reality of a group/organisation - are we not allowed to do that anymore?

This seemed to press your button or hit a raw nerve or something - Im sorry if you felt this was somehow a slur on you or your bedroom, or even the bedrooms of the indymedia activists. And as for criticising activists? Werent they supposed to be an independant media organisation reporting the "truth"? Now theyre activists - and thus must be biased by logic?

As for humourous criticism - I respect your views on political humour but Im afraid Im not bothered with dressing up valid criticism as some sort of bad joke just for kudos, in the process weakening the point originally intended. See your last sentence in your post - this is apaprently sarcasm/wit whatever....I read it and go yadayada, any point intended being swamped by the sheer banality of the sarcasm.

No the content wasn't discussed at all cos she was talking principally about the effect the internet could have on the creation and dissemination of art and stuff and cited Indymedia as a successful example of a non-commercial cooperative international project. My point is that it's taken seriously as a source of information and sometimes acts as an interesting counterbalance to accounts of events we're more used to getting. Personally I think newswire thing is crap, it's like the Herald's 'letters' page. And I would like to see the site feature lots of tits. Like the Sindo.

Well thats just great - I call the site a laughable propagandist and to counter this your state thats its respected as a non-commercial international project, without any mention of the content. Sorry, Im lost - Im glad theyre a nice bunch of international lads and whatever - how does this change their site being laughable propaganda? And on top of this you now describe them as activists rather than independant sources of information. Like I said, if this is your counter Im beginning to understand why your first instinct in a post is to launch a petty personal attack.

Von

Originally posted by Sand
This seemed to press your button or hit a raw nerve or something - Im sorry if you felt this was somehow a slur on you or your bedroom, or even the bedrooms of the indymedia activists.

No I find it funny that someone who is so sad that they spent christmas squatting on the internet babbling about their ridiculous prejudices actually has the nerve to accuse someone else of more or less having no life.

And as for criticising activists? Werent they supposed to be an independant media organisation reporting the "truth"? Now theyre activists - and thus must be biased by logic?

Indymedia people refer to themselves as activists, essentially because they're amateurs doing a job professionals can't or won't do.

As for humourous criticism - I respect your views on political humour but Im afraid Im not bothered with dressing up valid criticism as some sort of bad joke just for kudos, in the process weakening the point originally intended.

Seriously? You're incapable of making any point in any thread without making boring snide cliche ridden comments about people with 'loser jobs', about Bonkey's poor grasp of the English language, about lazy germans, about all foreigners in fact, particularly the french for some reason, and most bizarrely, about students, even though you like to brag about when you actually were one. That style of argument doesn't bother me but don't pretend you're interested in 'valid criticism'.

See your last sentence in your post - this is apaprently sarcasm/wit whatever....I read it and go yadayada, any point intended being swamped by the sheer banality of the sarcasm.

Too subtle for you then. Perhaps you're just not as familiar with the Sindo as I am.

Well thats just great - I call the site a laughable propagandist and to counter this your state thats its respected as a non-commercial international project, without any mention of the content. Sorry, Im lost - Im glad theyre a nice bunch of international lads and whatever - how does this change their site being laughable propaganda?

If the site was laughable propaganda then why did Phoenix do a nice profile on Mr.Crudden and why do proper media organisations ask them consistently for interviews and video footage?

Anyway back up your claim that the site is laughable propaganda. What is so objectionable about the 'Shannon Peace Protests Face Massive Garda Operation.' report? It seemed to be consistent with reports in the regular media. Unless you think everyone in the media is a sneaky communist workshy propagandist because they fail to report what you want to believe.

MDR

I find it very amusing that anyone could read the indymedia site and claim it to be an independent media ... I didn't find much of the Garda/Government side of the story.

MrPudding

Originally posted by Gavin
Err sorry - last time I checked Steyr AG's were machine guns - and can kill people. As for tanks - Scorpions. I believe I did see them on RTE news - and an awful lot of razor wire.

Perhaps I am mistaken.

I hate to be a pedant but the steyr is not a machinegun it is an assault rifle. Further, it is a 5.56mm rifle not 9mm or 45mm (should have read the whole thread before posting sorry.) as someone else pointed out.

Victor

Originally posted by Gavin
Err sorry - last time I checked Steyr AG's were machine guns - and can kill people. As for tanks - Scorpions. I believe I did see them on RTE news -

The Steyr AUG (Armeé Universal Gewehr - Universal Army Rifle) is an assault rifle and while there is a model that can be used in the light machine gun role, the Irish Amry doesn't have it. The [url=http://www.nasog.net/datasheets/armour/tanks/Alvis_Scorpion_Reconnaissance_Vehicle.htm[/url]Scorpion[/url] is a reconnaissance vehicle - it's only about seven feet tall and about fifteen feet long and made of aluminium. It weights 8 tonnes compared to 40-60 tonnes for a tank. You might have seen some Mowag Piranha armoured personnel carriers.

Originally posted by Gavin
and an awful lot of razor wire.

Which is good, razor wire only hurts those who want to be hurt / risk being hurt.

Originally posted by Cork
After September 11th - Our airports need protection.

Yes, but they also needed it before then and even now it is not being provided. Both Aer Rianta and the government are liable and have done nothing but respond to the protesters, they have done nothing pro-actively to improve perimeter security.

Originally posted by Cork
People caused many euros of damage to US aircraft costing the Irish taxpayer at this airport.

No. I spoke to the PDs parliamentary assistant (Susan?) and she can't substantiate this claim and isn't returning my messages. Why would we have to pay? If, say Ryanair, thrash my luggage will the government pay me?

Originally posted by MDR
I find it very amusing that anyone could read the indymedia site and claim it to be an independent media ... I didn't find much of the Garda/Government side of the story.

Then again the Irish Independant isn't very independant either.

bonkey

OK...despite my asking, it seems people are not listening.

Let me say this nice and clearly :

Give up with the posts on what a Steyr is. And scorpions, and whatever else hardware that has nothing to do with the discussion.

I tried to make it clear that I was posting the information to avoid a continuing pointless thread about guns in this topic. Obviously I was wrong.

If you have posted Steyr crap after this because you replied before you read the entire thread, then go and edit/delete your post now.

Any post following this which ignores the above will be deleted in its entirety.

jc

Sand

No I find it funny that someone who is so sad that they spent christmas squatting on the internet babbling about their ridiculous prejudices actually has the nerve to accuse someone else of more or less having no life.

Sigh. More personal abuse Von? Lies and willful misinterpretation thrown in along with a healthy dose of petty bitterness. When will you learn youre not in the playground anymore?

Indymedia people refer to themselves as activists, essentially because they're amateurs doing a job professionals can't or won't do.

They probably refer to themselves as activists as they were founded as claimed by their website as a PR link from the activists to the wider media looking for information on the Seattle rioters. They arent an independant media organisation getting the "truth" out there. Theyre a biased organisation putting out the left wings position/propaganda for the gullible who believe if its got independant on it then it must be true.

Seriously? You're incapable of making any point in any thread without making boring snide cliche ridden comments about people with 'loser jobs', about Bonkey's poor grasp of the English language, about lazy germans, about all foreigners in fact, particularly the french for some reason, and most bizarrely, about students, even though you like to brag about when you actually were one. That style of argument doesn't bother me but don't pretend you're interested in 'valid criticism'.

Dearie me, even more personal abuse Von, tell me - is the abuse padding for the rest of your post or is it the other way round - And I count 4 lies and a distortion in your abuse of me, but then what am I to expect?:)

If the site was laughable propaganda then why did Phoenix do a nice profile on Mr.Crudden and why do proper media organisations ask them consistently for interviews and video footage?

Why do they ask politicians for interviews, or ask players for their thoughts on a game? Because their independant media organisations or because theyre actually deeply involved in what the current "story" is about? IndyMedia wasnt founded to provide a balanced, fair and accurate account of the news - Its simply out there to get across the Lefts views - i.e. propaganda.

Von, In closing Id ask you to stick to your view that the IndyMedia are fair and balanced, weak a view as I think this is, and as I believe Ive shown this to be. Whilst you seem have a fondness for descending to playground abuse youll have to realise youre not there anymore - If youve not got a good enough case then abusing posters who disagree with you is not going to make it sound any better, especially when you have to invent exscuses to launch abusive tirades on people. I hope in time youll gain the maturity required to rise above your apparent love of personal attacks. Let go of your anger Von, and get out there on wonderfully sunny days like today.

gandalf

I've closed this because it was turning into the Von & Sand show.

Lads if you want to have a discussion on the merits of Indymedia or any other news organisation then start a topic, if it degenerates into a tired little b!tchfight like this then I'll be banning.

And remember bonkey has me one nil down today already and I hate being losing

Gandalf.