RTE in South West Wales

marclt · 17-02-2003 9:01pm #1

Hi

I'm just wondering how best to pick up RTE via Analogue.

Here just south of the Presely mountains, I can get a fairly good signal on a portable VHF telly, I've tried an outdoor VHF FM aerial and this is Ok but not great.

Can I use a masthead type booster for VHF? Is a FM aerial the same as a VHF TV aerial?!?

I can get a good TV3/TG4 UHF signal with just a tv top aerial so a bigger external one should do the trick with that, I just want more info on VHF. I'm picking up two versions of RTE1/Net2 they seem quite far apart too.. Maybe Mullaghanish and Mt Leinster or perhaps Kippure, I'm not sure!

Any tips greatfully received!

17-02-2003 9:17pm

If you can give us the frequencies, that you are getting the second ( weaker ?) RTÉ signal on VHF, I can tell you if as I suspect it is Kippure.

You will simply need a chimney mounted, VHF aerial for Mount Leinster with the elements vertically polarised.
The polarity is different with Kippure-horizontal.

A good 12 to 20 element aerial is what you need, and if you are getting a fairish signal just on a telescopic, you will have good Mt Leinster with the outdoor, no amps at all, when the polarity is right.
mm

lawhec · 17-02-2003 10:01pm

Here just south of the Presely mountains, I can get a fairly good signal on a portable VHF telly, I've tried an outdoor VHF FM aerial and this is Ok but not great.

Can I use a masthead type booster for VHF? Is a FM aerial the same as a VHF TV aerial?!?

No, it's not. A VHF FM aerial (for VHF Band II) is designed to work over the frequencies of 87.5 to 108 MHz. The one you require for TV needs to cover 174 to 230 MHz (Known as VHF Band III).

You can indeed get masthead amps for VHF Band III reception but by the sounds of your UHF reception a proper 8 to 10 element VHF Band III aerial may be all you need for RTÉ 1 and Network 2. If you're unable to get such an aerial from Ireland itself, a good radio aerial stockist should have now trouble being able to supply you one (these are often supplied for DX Television as this band is no longer used for TV in the UK but is still widely used, as you know, in Ireland and Mainland Europe) but it's also likely some TV dealers in parts of Wales who deal with installing RTÉ could probably sell you one as well.

As MM points out, on a VHF Band III aerial the elements would need to be vertical to receive Mt.Leinster and Horizontal for Kippure, but if you still can't determine which transmitter it is from that, check to see what frequency your TV3 & TG4 channels are - if they are 23 & 26 they will be Mt.Leinster, 59 & 62 will be Kippure.

marclt · 19-02-2003 6:55pm

Cheers Guys... I'll try and answer your Q's and then maybe you can help me abit more.

I don't think the weaker signal was Kippure... purely because Net2 was on channel H... this is Mt. Leinster isn't it? The other network 2 was way before this one around G maybe. But this could have been due to the lift conditions on Monday all sorts of signals were flying around.

TV3 and TG4 coming in really strong (bit of co channel on channel 23 and 26!) So this is Mt. Leinster!

Its just finding a VHF Tv aerial!

watty · 20-02-2003 9:31am

And if you do get a nice big Log Periodic Band III VHF aerial and RTE close VHF, it should work for DAB.

VHF Analog Radio is about 1/2 to 1/3 of BANDIII, so aerial rods are 2 to 3 times longer. But Digital Radio, DAB is a small part of BANDIII.

A bigger aerial is better than a preamp.

If you have a longish cable run then a preamp at the aerial (Always mount headamp / preamp at least 4 times distance of longest rod from an Aerial to avoid "feedback" from its output to the aerial).

Many UHF preamps work fine for BAND III VHF. None work any good for Band I

A VHF/UHF preamp may be too noisy as it will pickup and amplfiy Band I and BAND II also, a large local signal can then intermodulate with the BAND III desired signal.

There was a plan to scrap VHF. But due to still poor UHF coverage in some areas, lack of publiciity / people not getting UHF aerials, after protests from TV trade, RTE has put this on ice for the main VHF Transmitters. I think most of the VHF relays are now replaced by UHF though.

Since I occasionally get Cornwall Amatuer Radio on VHF 144MHz here in Limerick and used to get Spanish VHF TV here, I'd say in summer in "Trop Scatter" conditions (High Pressure usually), you may even get Maghera and Mulliganish VHF. Irish VHF TV has been received in Scandinavia!

Get as big a Band III TV log periodic as possible (They are packed flat and take only a few minutes to screw together so mail order from Dublin, etc is possible. I can get one wholesale here in Limerick).
Use Satellite grade cable as it won't degrade as much in weather and on a 50ft run may give twice the signal level. (I'd have to look up the exact figures for 250MHz etc).

It is even possible to get a UHF / VHF splitter designed for mast head UHF amp and no amp on VHF. One of those on each end of the cable will allow Dish/LNB and VHF aerial at one end and Digibox / VHF TV at the other.
(You can even get F-Connector versions, or F-Connector to TV type plug adaptors). Of course you can use them for a local UHF aerial instead!

Galway · 20-02-2003 12:19pm

The Mount Leinster VHF channels area screened to the east to avoid inteference with Band 3 radio transmissions in the Uk ( amateur or emerg services i think. Dunno if UHF TV 3 and TG 4 are too.

The Net 2 frequency is Channel I from Mt Leinster and ch. F for RTE 1 - both vertical. The channel H Net 2 signal is Kippure with RTE 1 on E horizontal polarisation. I know this cos it has the same channels as Maghera my service area tx but with vertical polarisation. The Kippure FM radio services can also be picked up at least on a car radio with RDS from Haverfordwest but vanish in Fishguard!

Is log periodic better on gain than a wide band say 11 element aerial?

Although i am in maghera service area i pick up Cairn hill with triax 100 26 db gr B UHF amp, castlebar with 18 element gr A antiference and 26 db wideband UHF am and also the Balla deflector system relaying UK analogue from Brougher Mt Eniskillen. Truskmore UHF can also be picked up (badly)

Galway · 20-02-2003 12:23pm

as ur in limerick. do you know where chorus source their Uk tv signals - they are analogue cos all have text. Ntl take the chorus feed for the uk channels here in galway for MMDS - every so often chorus goes down and we are switched to digibox signals - even channel 4 last time - all expect UTV no satellite alternative back up yet!

It the chorus tx on Keeper hill? I know theres one for the city on woodcock hill.

How can the UK signals get that far down if they are being received off air from the UK Tx in NI?

marclt · 22-02-2003 7:32pm

Cheers Watty!

I've tried to get a VHF TV aerial on this side of the Irish sea, how much do they retail for overthere?

This morning reception was really good on a tv top aerial for TV3 and TG4.... practically perfect today! Weird!

I have managed to pick up RTE 1 and Net2 on the FM aerial...so I'm pretty sure I'll get em good and clear on a proper band III aerial.

To give you an idea of my location I'm about 3/4 miles from Preseli transmitter. Hey, and I can get amazing reception from that one!

David Robinson · 24-02-2003 6:34pm

For a VHF band 3 aerial you could try CPC in Preston and do a search on "BAND III". There are some aerials by Triax there. CPC will supply non-account customers. :cool:

Leesider · 25-02-2003 2:44pm

>>>This morning reception was really good on a tv top aerial for TV3 and TG4.... practically perfect today! <<<

And to think that the town of Youghal in East Cork can't get any TV3 signal with a rooftop aerial (TV3 say it's in a 'pocket').

Crazy that it can be picked up in and parts of NI and Wales.

watty · 28-02-2003 4:45pm

Originally posted by marclt
Cheers Watty!

I've tried to get a VHF TV aerial on this side of the Irish sea, how much do they retail for overthere?

This morning reception was really good on a tv top aerial for TV3 and TG4.... practically perfect today! Weird!

I have managed to pick up RTE 1 and Net2 on the FM aerial...so I'm pretty sure I'll get em good and clear on a proper band III aerial.

To give you an idea of my location I'm about 3/4 miles from Preseli transmitter. Hey, and I can get amazing reception from that one!

I think a good one is about 25 Euro trade. I'll try and remember to check next week.

Richard · 28-02-2003 9:08pm

Originally posted by Leesider
>>>This morning reception was really good on a tv top aerial for TV3 and TG4.... practically perfect today! <<<

And to think that the town of Youghal in East Cork can't get any TV3 signal with a rooftop aerial (TV3 say it's in a 'pocket').

Crazy that it can be picked up in and parts of NI and Wales.

Of course if you live near the Welsh west coast there isn't any high ground in the way!

I think they can get much better RTE reception in Portpatrick, southwest Scotland than they can in North Down because they don't have that much high ground in the way.

watty · 03-03-2003 4:25pm

Originally posted by Richard I think they can get much better RTE reception in Portpatrick, southwest Scotland than they can in North Down because they don't have that much high ground in the way.

In Islandmagee Co. Antrim, NI. they used to have to get Scottish TV. Since I left they got a relay. Still my Mum never knew about Ch5 / "five" till she upgraded from Sky Analog to Sky Digital (her old analog box had no ADX for 1D).

The Analog TV is still terrible in her house, my Brother's and my Sister's. They all have Sky Digital now.

marclt · 04-03-2003 8:44pm

Damn!

Was in Wexford at the weekend... they didn't have any VHF aerials in the three places I tried!

I'll have to scour the internet... blakes seem to have a few DAB aerials... do they work on the same frequency as VHF TV?

Don't know the cost though.. the website isn't that helpful!

Marc

watty · 05-03-2003 11:07am

DAB aerials DO be the same frequecny (partly) but few have much gain. Rarely more than 2 element

Since Clare/Cork have the two big VHF without UHF RTE1 TX, and cover Limerick / Tipp so I can get an aerial here.

The trade price Ex VAT is 21.50 Euro for TEN element VHF band III.
They don't post, but if you want I can arrange that. They do 5 and 7 element, but you'd want the 10!

I beleive these are Log Periodic so do the whole Band III. Make a brillant DX aerial for DAB too!

Four in a Quad array might even work here in Limerick to pick up N.I. DAB (I assume N.I. does have DAB?).

West Briton · 05-03-2003 9:41pm

Hmm. What sort of range does the DAB transmitter at Divis have then, with a full size Band III aerial?

watty · 06-03-2003 9:30am

Originally posted by West Briton
Hmm. What sort of range does the DAB transmitter at Divis have then, with a full size Band III aerial?

I'd love to know too.

But is it worth it?
Bit rate is reported to be too low on many DAB stations and most of them + a lot more is on Sky Digital Free To Air (no sub or card needed) at 256K. DAB ought to be 192K for stereo minimum but many are 112K, 128K. Some 160k. R3 is 192K mostly but ought to be 256K like it is on Sky Digital.

Frameless · 08-03-2003 7:14pm

Mount Leinster frequencies as follows:

RTE 1 TV - Channel F (191.25)

Net 2 - Channel I (eye) (215.25)

TG4 - Channel 23 UHF

TV3 - Channel 26 UHF

Radio services RTE Radio 1 89.6; 2FM 91.8; RnaG 94.0; Today FM 101.4; Lyric FM 99.2.

I was in Wales in 1998 and enjoyed perfect FM car radio reception (no fading whatsoever) throught the Preseli region. This is usually a good indicator of how the TV signals will perform.
If you wany to buy Band III aerials mail-order you could try www.peats.ie They might be able to supply you. Hope that helps in some way.

Frameless · 08-03-2003 7:18pm

Just checked www.peats.ie Click on this link to an aerial which may suit you. Cheers. http://www.peats.ie/cgi-bin/shop/db.cgi?view=1&id=4439&type=6&path=12x161x594

marclt · 10-03-2003 8:29am

Cheers for the link... would you say they are any better than these ones...

http://www.blake-aerials.co.uk/ABM.HTM

For an 8 element it'll set me back £36stg.

Any ideas?

Richard · 11-03-2003 7:53pm

Originally posted by watty
In Islandmagee Co. Antrim, NI. they used to have to get Scottish TV.

Oh yes, I meant to say that those in Portpatrick also get better Divis reception on 1-4 than Cambret Hill which is their local TX.

Richard · 11-03-2003 8:11pm

Originally posted by watty
I'd love to know too.

But is it worth it?
Bit rate is reported to be too low on many DAB stations and most of them + a lot more is on Sky Digital Free To Air (no sub or card needed) at 256K. DAB ought to be 192K for stereo minimum but many are 112K, 128K. Some 160k. R3 is 192K mostly but ought to be 256K like it is on Sky Digital.

I have DAB, and the quality is good, though on some of the Stations the compression is too much. The other problem with NI is that we don't have "Digital One" here, just the BBC MUX and the SCORE Digital one. SCORE carries a few stations which are on Digital One in GB, but not Virgin or TalkSport.

There are also a few local stations missing - including most of the Q Network stations (only Q102.9 North West is carried).

Radio Foyle and the NI version of Radio 1 are not carried either.

For a full list of what is available, go to http://www.digitalradionow.com/index.php?internalPage=checker.php

If you need a postcode, try BT2 8HQ !

Here in North Down, the reception is good. The BBC MUX rarely breaks up, though SCORE breaks up more frequently.

NI really needs 4 MUXes - BBC, DigitalOne, and two independents. The independents could carry the ROI National stations as part of the their bouquet.

The problem is that some of the frequencies used for DAB in GB are used by TV in the Republic. I believe there may be more frequencies available in 2007 but not before.

As far as I know the Republic has only two digital MUX frequencies allocated for it, so this might also cause a problem when DAB gets off the ground there.

Frameless · 15-03-2003 2:54pm

Originally posted by marclt
Cheers for the link... would you say they are any better than these ones...

http://www.blake-aerials.co.uk/ABM.HTM

For an 8 element it'll set me back £36stg.

Any ideas?

£36 stg = €54 approx, so not much difference, except the postage will probably be cheaper at your end. Best of luck!
We've enjoyed your services for years - hope you enjoy ours - they're not quite as bad as they're made out to be!

marclt · 30-04-2003 7:17am

I got one for £15 from a guy I know.. the aerial is picking up RTE 1 and Network 2 from Kippure... tried Mt. Leinster and there was no joy there - very grainy network2 just as bad RTE 1.

I've been all around the back garden trying to find the best position for the aerial. (Height doesn't seem to matter ... we're pretty high up anyway!)

The only problem is some intermodulation on RTE1. I think its because we're so close to the Preseli tx that it seems to be putting out harmonics on the VHF frequencies.

Any ideas on how to overcome this?

Galway · 30-04-2003 8:33am

The VHF Band III signals from Mt Leinster are shielded to avoid interference with amateur radio. There was a massive transmit aerial re-built quite a few years ago when Net 2 came on air. Dont know about the UHF signals though from Mt Leinster. have you tried these?

Galway · 30-04-2003 8:34am

www.irish-tv.com/mtleinst.htm

www.irish-tv.com/kippure.htm

You may find these useful.

marclt · 30-04-2003 8:53pm

Yeah, TV3/TG4 from Mt. Leinster are fine... the VHF services aren't so hot, N2 is better than RTE1.

I live quite close to the Presely tx, I think this may be causing a little distortion - although not sure why its UHF.

I'm keeping trying... maybe I'll have to get a bigger aerial, although maybe a mast amp might help?

Galway · 01-05-2003 7:45am

yes you definitely use a mast head amp. Do u get tv 3 and tg4 from kippure too? (group c/d)

look at http://www.northnotts.com/fringe/ its wideband so you can use for VHF and UHF and run both into one cable to the set.

for tv3 and tg4 Use a high gain UHF aerial like Unix triax 100 group A for Mt Leinster group c/d for Kippure.

You can use separate masthead amps for vHf and UHF and combine in a UhF/VHF diplexer - providing it has power through n both legs - VHF and UHF or use the wideband above.

http://www.northnotts.com/fringe/

has details of masthead amps and they will tell you your local stockists if you mail them.

Let me know how you get on.

marclt · 01-05-2003 8:04pm

Cheers

Thanks for that Galway, UHF channels are coming from Mt. Leinster TX and VHF channels coming from Kippure.

Marc

Galway · 01-05-2003 10:00pm

Have you tried the UHF ones from Kippure as the kippure signals get into better to SW wales? Btw where exactly are you?

I know it from Haverfordwest onto to Fishguard/ Goodwick - obviously from using the ferry. Have picked up the FM services from Kippure on car radio there with RDS id.

If you upgrade your aerials to highest gain types and use masthead amp and low loss satellite grade cable you should get very watchable pics.

Also are you using a set with VHF band 3 tuner or an VHF to UHF converter? Could be cause of your lines on RTE-1.

marclt · 02-05-2003 1:18pm

Cant get Kippure on UHF. Do get RTE FM on Mt. Leinster and FM. I live just down the road from the Preseli transmitter on the A478 which is probably the best way to describe my location.

I have a VHF band 3 television.

I'll keep trying... funnily enough the VHF aerial picks up UHF tele better than the UHF aerial!

Marc

Galway · 02-05-2003 5:51pm

If you want to maximise reception I suggest upgrading to a UNIx 100 Group A aerial and Fringe supreme masthead amp - group A or probably better a wideband vhf-uhf amp to improve the vhf signals too.Check the fringe site. Mount the UHF at the top of pole then the Vhf both horizontally polarised but of course facing in different directions. Use a log pole mounted as high a syou can on the house or wherever (say 16 ft pole but not aluminium - guess Wales can get as windy as here!) You will have to spend some money but always worth it to improve pictures I feel.

RTE in South West Wales

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