Austria blocks transit of US troopers

Chaos-Engine

14.02.2003 - 09:15 CET



Austria blocks transit of US troopers


All roads lead to Rome -but for American soldiers not via Austria. (Photo: Notat)
US Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld yesterday in the US senate criticised Austria for holding up American troops from going from Germany via Austria to Italy by train.

The Austrian minister of Defence, Herbert Scheibner, confirmed, according to Austrian media, that the Americans had asked for transit and that permission would not be given without a UN mandate.

The movement of troopers is part of an American build up in the Gulf region in preparation for a possible war in Iraq. The US maintains 100,000 soldiers in Europe, of which 70,000 in Germany. They will have to go by ship from the Dutch city of Rotterdam or via train through three to four countries, if they cannot pass through Austria.

Austria is a neutral country.


Article

So if a neutral country such as Austria that is a member of the PfP such as Ireland can say no to the US why in the hell can't we do the same. Ireland has NEVER taking the leading role in saying what needs to be said. Now that Austria has said "NO" surely we can copy them

DiscoStu

Dont forget Dev sucked up to the nazis why should Bertie be any different?(not that im implying dubya is a nazi )

Our neutrality is a farce. allways has and always will be.

Using our army to protect the millitary assets of the united states (or any other coutry for that matter) is not neutral.

therecklessone

Sucked up to the Nazis???

So thats why British and American airmen who crashlanded in Ireland were transported to the border and handing to the authorities in the North while German airmen spent the rest of the war in internment? Or why meteorlogical data was shared with the British throughout the war?

Cop on. If Dev sucked to anyone it was to the Allies, and had the political/economic situation been any different we'd have been in there with them as well (certainly should have).

Chaos-Engine

please oh please don't drag this topic into the WW2/Neutrality argument...

Simply NOW....
Why can't we just say "NO"??

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
Simply NOW....
Why can't we just say "NO"??

Because that would require a set of strongly-held moral principles and political convictions.

I'm pro-war but I respect the position of the Austrian government infinitely more than that of the Irish government. Why can't we just admit we're not neutral?

Cork

I have come from a position of getting rid of Saddam - by hook or by crook.

But now, I am willing to look at all facts and see what happens over the next number of weeks.

I believe - Bertie is playing a blinder.

He is not being forced into any corner by the US or the French.

I am begining to admire French diplomacy skills.

But I am also begining to see - the tactic Bertie is doing.

We cannot afford at this point to alienate either the US or French.

We do not have much influence anyway.

But - It is too early for us to nail our colors to the mast.

Economically - We cannot afford to alienate the US.

Noboby is forcing our hand in anyway.

Bertie is going with the flow. If - he sided with the French - This would achieve nothing & maybe would cost us jobs.

If he sided unequivicaly with the US. He would be alienating the French and alienating the Peace people.

So, Let the French, the US & UN decide what to do with Saddam.

Bertie will row in behind this.

Irish Crafty diplomacy.

sceptre

Ahern is trying to be in two corners at once - hence he's making a balls of it.

Bah, I'm not even going to bother.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork


I believe - Bertie is playing a blinder.

He is not being forced into any corner by the US or the French.

Eh?

Personally I think Bertie is firmly pro-US on this one. His only reason for not coming out more strongly on their side, i.e. maybe promising them the Irish army to help murder Iraqi conscripts as they attempt to surrender in their thousands, is because he has to maintain Biffo's charade of Ireland's full support for the institutions of the UN. The French are not stupid, and if you think that bumbling gob****e Ahern is managing to keep them onside you are sadly mistaken. The reason they haven't reacted in a negative manner to us is precisely as you've stated, we have very little influence. The French are pragmatists, unlike the US, who will bear a grudge for years to come if we tell them to p**s off to Prestwick/Frankfurt to refuel their aircraft.

I'm in favour of seeing Saddam getting his ass kicked(subject to certain conditions), but I am not in favout of giving credit to the Man in the Anorak when it is certainly not deserved.

Gordon

Chaos, sorry for off topic but don't you get lots of spam mail because you have your email in a public forum? Robots sniff the web for email addys don't they?

Anyway, sorry for off topic.

jd

Originally posted by sceptre
Ahern is trying to be in two corners at once - hence he's making a balls of it.

Bah, I'm not even going to bother.

That the way Bertie always operates. Say two different things from opposite sides of his mouth. Then he gets annoyed when he is picked up on it and calls them a waffler or worse. IO suppose its good for Bush to have a few corner boys on his side.
Am I the only person in Ireland who doesnt *like* Bertie?

therecklessone

Nah, just the only one who feels they have to ask the question:D

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Loomer

"Bertie is going with the flow."

Another way of saying hiding in the shadows. But hes in good company most leaders in countries of minimal influence in the world are staying well out of this one.

But thats what it comes down to right. Fcuk with the Americans and they'll whack economic sanctions on yo arse (e.g. France & Germany).

Expect all the minnow countries in the UN Sec. Council to side with America on a possible 2nd resolution as they all have some US aid packages coming there way and there not going to want to scupper them.

Sadly, to paraphrase, In this occasion the buck doesn't stop but comes from America.

Cork

Originally posted by Loomer
"Bertie is going with the flow."

Another way of saying hiding in the shadows. But hes in good company most leaders in countries of minimal influence in the world are staying well out of this one.

Irelands economy is very dependant on foriegn US direct investment.
Our tourism industry is very dependant on Irish Americans coming over to the old sod.
I feel - Bertie is very careful by nature. He was not going to make a big gamble for the sake of a few soundbytes.

In the greater scheme of things - Ireland is not very important when deciding how thw global community is going to approach Iraq.

Bertie is playing it cool - why should he gamble when the benefits would be tiny to non existant?

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork

Our tourism industry is very dependant on Irish Americans coming over to the old sod.

Grand so, a few extra brightly dressed American tourists, and we can forget the thousands of dead Iraqis post-Gulf War II.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
Irelands economy is very dependant on foriegn US direct investment.

You are probably overstating this, the US Chamber of Commerce in Ireland says American companies employ 90,000 Irish people ... this is out of 1.8m. www.cso.ie

therecklessone

In fairness though, many of those jobs are in what is pervceived to be the high-paying technology sector, and so are seen as slightly more important than a lot of the other industry we have.

Do those figures include agencies which may perform services for US companies, but are seen as Irish? I'm thinking call-support companies, with contracts for US firms and the like...

Cork

It is easy to be little the contribution the US has made to our economy & tourisim industry.

It is easy to forget - how the US got the Irish Peace Process back on track.

Yes - US Business is here to make PROFIT
Yes - The Peace process is very important electorally for many US politicians.


But - We cannot gamble with the contribution the US has made to our country. We cannot kick Irish Americans in the teeth for the sake of a few cheesy soundbytes on the news.

Give inspectors more time. It is then up to the UN.

Bertie is not being reckless. He is being careful.

If your job was in a US company or If your town had an advance factory - You would appreciate that Bertie was being careful.

Victor

Cork, are you asserting that the Iraq issue should only be dealt with in context of American investment in Ireland and can't stand up on it's own two feet? If that is the case, I think the argument for war is lost.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork


Give inspectors more time. It is then up to the UN.

Bertie is not being reckless. He is being careful.

I agree with you, let the UN sort it.

But the US has been clear on this, if the UN doesn't do what it wants, it goes it alone.

What I've heard so far from members of our government is that in that scenario, because of blood-ties and economics and all the b****x, we will side with the US anyway. Do you think 100,000 people marched in Dublin today in support of that? Is that the will of the people?

Bertie is not being crafty. He is being evasive. There is a difference. I am heartily sick of governance by PR executives, which is what we have today. Its spin, spin, spin. What it SHOULD be is policy, debate, and decency.

Cork

Do you think 100,000 people marched in Dublin today in support of that?

I too am anti-war. But if there is no other option to get rid of Saddam - war is a definate option.

I am heartily sick of governance by PR executives, which is what we have today. Its spin, spin, spin. What it SHOULD be is policy, debate, and decency.

This PR lack was used heavily by the hiring of programme managers by the rainbow government.

Bertie is not being crafty. He is being evasive.

The UN are now to be given more time - It is time for Bertie to await the outcome.

Cork, are you asserting that the Iraq issue should only be dealt with in context of American investment in Ireland and can't stand up on it's own two feet? If that is the case, I think the argument for war is lost.

Do we want too be pure but poor?

I think that Ireland like France has national interest. We have got to bide out time & await the UN final Weapons report. We are not a big play. We are not influential. We have got to get real hear.

Bertie is a realist. He is very careful in not trying to cause offence to the US - But I feel that the majority in the Dail do support the US. But in the long run - endless inspections will have a deadline. And the French, Germans and Germans will probably end up supporting a war.

Our biggest market is Britian. Our Biggest investor is the US. Our second biggest make is the US. Our second biggest investor in the the UK.

I think everybody is aganist war. Should our government stop giving grants to companys that supply micro chips to defence companys?

Should we start closing the door on certain companies?

If we do this - We might as well close the door on US investment.

You cannot divorce your self interest with your economoic policy.

But Saddam needs to be gotten rid of.

How many more must he kill before people realise this?

100,000? 200,00??

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork
I too am anti-war. But if there is no other option to get rid of Saddam - war is a definate option.



This PR lack was used heavily by the hiring of programme managers by the rainbow government.



The UN are now to be given more time - It is time for Bertie to await the outcome.



Do we want too be pure but poor?

I think that Ireland like France has national interest. We have got to bide out time & await the UN final Weapons report. We are not a big play. We are not influential. We have got to get real hear.

Bertie is a realist. He is very careful in not trying to cause offence to the US - But I feel that the majority in the Dail do support the US. But in the long run - endless inspections will have a deadline. And the French, Germans and Germans will probably end up supporting a war.

Our biggest market is Britian. Our Biggest investor is the US. Our second biggest make is the US. Our second biggest investor in the the UK.

I think everybody is aganist war. Should our government stop giving grants to companys that supply micro chips to defence companys?

Should we start closing the door on certain companies?

If we do this - We might as well close the door on US investment.

You cannot divorce your self interest with your economoic policy.

But Saddam needs to be gotten rid of.

How many more must he kill before people realise this?

100,000? 200,00??

A lot in here Cork, so I'll try to address as much as I can.

1. I am anti-war, especially in its current form. I do agree Saddam has to go. He has killed his own people (I don't need to list the instances, we all know when and how). The people involved in the current US administration were instrumental in encouraging, and the hiding the evidence from Congress, Saddam to do this. Believe me, its true. So why should I trust them now to act in the best interests of the Iraqi people? How can thousands of cruise missiles and constant bombing of an already pulverised infrastructure help anyone?

2. Personally I favour the immeadiate lifting of sanctions, followed by the arming, training and support of Saddams opponents within Iraq. Thats the Kurds and the marsh Arabs. (make it clear to them that Iraq will remain one soverign state post-Saddam). Halt ALL Iraqi air operations within the no-fly zones, that means primarily helicopters which are curently allowed. Iraqi attack helicopters have caused havoc against villages which give refuge to his enemies.

3. Can you please point the way to the body count that is a DIRECT result of Saddam's regime. While you're searching, find out how many died in the turkey shoot on the road from Kuwait to Baghdad after the first war, or how many conscripts surrendering were butchered by US troops with orders to take no prisoners...bulldozed alive in their trenches and the like. How can you tell me that a war which will lead to the death of hundreds of thousands can be justified by the fact that Saddam might kill a couple of thousand of his own people. If thats the case, then why didn't we kick the s**t out of Indonesia under Suharto? A. Because he's sold mineral rights to western companies...

4. You rightly point to the use of program managers by the Rainbow Coalition. I couldn't agree more. Doesn't change the fact that the practise has continued under Bertie and de boys. Politics throughout the western world has become a pr battle. It is sickening. Where the hell are the ideas, and the motivation to make people's lives better?

5. Finally, and I can't keep saying this to you, Bertie and his cohorts are not fence-sitting. Be it that moustachioed gob****e Willie O'Dea, or Cowen, or Bertie himself, all the indications are that in the even of the US defying the UN and going it alone, WE WILL STILL SUPPORT THEM. We don't have to tell the yanks to piss off, all we have to do is say "look, shrub, in plain mans language cop on! we're with the UN on this one, go outside it and forget about Shannon"

What price are you prepared to pay to keep foreign investment in this country? If the US supported Saddam right now, and the UN was itching for a row with him, would we stand shoulder to shoulder with the US because of our blood ties?

Cork

5. Finally, and I can't keep saying this to you, Bertie and his cohorts are not fence-sitting. QUOTE]

When you look across the whole EU. France, Germany & Belgium are France are on one side. The UK and Italy are on the other side.

Ireland, Finland & the other countries have adopted a wait & see approach.

This is both caucious & sensible.

Tony Blair now wants the inspectors to be given more time.

But - deadlines will have to be set.

And IF Saddam does not own up - to what he has done with his weapons - War is back on the agenda.

A war that will be supported my the Franch & Germans - Saddam has a chance to avoid war.

It is up now to Saddam.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
This PR lack was used heavily by the hiring of programme managers by the rainbow government.

Cork, can you kindly get a life and stop dragging threads off topic? The rainbow government did not invent PR or spin doctors or program managers. (And BTW Bertie has a political staff of 200, 4 times more than Blair).