Unprovoked attack

Valentia

My young lad (19) was beaten to a pulp in Sligo last night. Some morons decided they wanted a few bob and creeled him. Worse a friend, an 18 year old woman of slight build was punched to the ground and punched in the head. She is still in hospital.

Is there any other animal on this planet that would do something like that. I don't think so. And people say thay drugs are ok. Gimme a break!!

I dunno but as a parent this country seems to ahve lost the plot ;-(

woolymammoth

sadly, this country lost the plot a long time ago.

MiCr0

i wouldn't blame the country - i'd blame the people
its them that do everything

i hope your son (and the woman) are ok

daveirl

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Xterminator

I hope there both ok Valentia, nothing too serious!



<Rant>

I think people who are dangerous like those thugs, should be locked up for a long time when there caught.

It seems that a lot of these scubags have records, and have receive short sentances, of which they spend only a fraction of, before being released to re-offend.

My solution would be to build more prisions, and implememt a 3 strikes and you seve mandatory life sentance policy to all violent/serious offenders.

<Rant>

X

bonkey

Sincere sympathies - hopefully no lasting damage (physical or mental) will result.

I remember a few years ago, calling my girlfriend from the phoneboxes just on the south side of OConnell Bridge in Dublin - right across the road from Messers Maguires. Some bloke stuck his head in the phone booth asking for change, but sodded off when I told him I had no money and it was a card phone.

Next thing I know, I see the same bloke, plus a mate of his "flanking" my mate who was waiting for me. Both standing facing him, but at about 60 degrees left and right of being in front of him (if that makes sense) so that he couldnt easily see both at the same time.

I got off the phone quickly, but just as I was coming out, the two lads threw simultaneous punches at my mates jaw. He went down like a sack of bricks. A kick to the head from one and to the torso from the other, and the two lads were off running down the road, laughing at the great fun that they just had.

I cannot understand the appeal of inflicting hurt and suffering, unprovoked, for no reason other than the enjoyment of bullying.

Its a sad reflection on our society that such occurrences are typically on the increase.

jc

Darth Henry

There are many reasons for the mindless thuggery and assaults that take place nightly (and daily) in every part of our country.

Many people blame the changing family structure, others alcohol and drugs, some people blame the fact that we have changed into a society that simply wants to challenge everything.

Personally, I blame the law and those who apply it in this country.

People are getting suspended sentences for assaulting people, the same people are up countless times before the same judge and yet get suspended sentences or community service.

thats boll0cks.

There was an 18 yr old in court for assault recently with SEVENTY TWO previous convictions. He got 4 months in jail!!
They should have thrown away the key.

I saw a picture in The Indo of men in Russia being taken to labour camps in Siberia in big metal cages on the back of trucks.

You might think thats mad but surely our system is a lot worse.

Minister McDowell himself has had his house broken into 3 times.

People are going out attacking people every day and night and they couldn't give a fu*k because they know that they'll probably get a rap on the knuckles (if they're caught) and told not to do it again.

I'm fed up with this country.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Wook

sorry to hear this Valentia,
I hope they're both ok and indeed going to be fine soon.
and aye I agree with most people here those 'creatures' should be locked away and us protected from this senseless harm.
Is this crime of getting the sh*t kicked out of you not getting out of hand ? I guess we are just going to have to wait until a politicians kid is attacked.

Darth Henry

or a politician.....


they brought the army in to protect US planes - i've no problem with that - but they could try something like that on the streets of some of our towns and cities!

DeVore

That sucks... was it drug related?

Dublin (particularly Dublin North Central) is turning into a zoo on a saturday night.

DeV.

RainyDay

they brought the army in to protect US planes - i've no problem with that - but they could try something like that on the streets of some of our towns and cities!

Great idea, just look at how successful it was up in Belfast!

Regretably, there is little evidence to show that a 'hard' approach of "lock 'em up & throw away the key" achieves anything other than satisfying society's need for vengance. The recidivism rates for the infamous Sherrif Joe Arpaio (who's speciality is spending more to feed his guard dogs than his inmates) were no better than other counties who have a more traditional approach to prison.

Darth Henry

Great idea, just look at how successful it was up in Belfast!

ah thats completely different!!!!!

you're comparing innocent people being assaulted to riots with petrol bombs, pipe bombs, bricks, etc.

:mad:

Regretably, there is little evidence to show that a 'hard' approach of "lock 'em up & throw away the key" achieves anything other than satisfying society's need for vengance.

so what would you suggest oh great one?

RainyDay

It's a huge problem & I don't think there are any quick/easy solutions. My own humble opinion is that we need to look at the causes of crime - How (as a society) are we managing to create individuals who feel so little for their fellow human beings to allow them to carry out such crimes. I don't believe that they have 'bad genes' in the vast majority of cases, so it's got be down to any/all of bad parenting, bad schooling, lack of equal opportunities to employment & further education etc etc.

In the short term, I would look for increased Garda presence, making pub owners liable for damage caused by drunk customers, extension of opening hours (24 hours) to avoid the mad rush onto the streets at closing time etc.

Mercury_Tilt

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Valentia

Thanks a million everyone for your kind comments. I'm just back from Sligo (I live in Meath) and himself is in fine form physically but a little shaken mentally. Herself is out of hospital after two days and recovering at home.

I was reading in the local paper that Navan has the same number of Gardai as it had in 1983. The population has trebled and the crime rate quadrupled in that time. It doesn't take Einstein to figure that thats bad maths.

Now if it was the poor old developers who had to give up 20% of their developments to social housing and they were finding that too big a burden to bear I bet the Government would find the resources to bail them out. Oh they did didn't they? ''

Education (the ultimate solution in the long term is totally underfunded and skewed towards the points system rather than developing rounded human beings. As for putting guards on the street, what guards?

Thanks sgain everyone for your messages of support.


Valentia

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

kaimera

this IS Ireland MT.

How many unprovoked attacks do you think are actually investigated?

Mercury_Tilt

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Valentia

and the criminal investigation?

They are still looking for the bastar$s

Kell

Valentia- that sucks. No one deserves an attack provoked or otherwise.

A thought occurred to me some time ago when reading two quarter page articles in one of the weekend papers about the amount of alchohal related violence victims being admitted to hospitals and subsequent violence in hospitals towards staff as a result of plastered patients. When I read the article I thought to myself "why the hell isn't cannabis legal then?"

The basis for my argument:

1) Through experience, stoned people dont get stroppy
2) Stoned people dont fight (the ones I know at least)
3) Stoned people generally have their wits about them, albeit a diminished sense of wits
4) Píssed and stoned people dont generally do any of the above either
5) Cops prefer to deal with a crowd of stoners than a crowd of píss heads as violence doesnt generally break out (Words of ex London Police Commissioner)

I am aware that I am slightly advocating the use of one drug over another, but FFS, if the government got smart and allowed the sale of dope, taxed it appropriately, then the additional funds made could go back into policing the streets. Nobody I know (I know a lot of stoners) have progressed onto any "hard drugs" by which I mean everything from E to Charlie, so if the violence and number of people destroying their lives isnt clear enough evidence of a reform in the drugs policies I dont know what is.

I would love to see what the alchohal related crime statistics are in places with a liberal view of dope are like Holland and compare them with our own.

Sorry for bleating on- it still sucks Valentia.

DeVore

I agree with Kell and would add that it would take cannabis out of the circle of "gateway drugs".

Its only a gateway drug because you have to associate with lowlifes and hard drug abusers to get it.

DeV.

Turnip

Most people would say that cannabis users ARE lowlifes...

Kell

Originally posted by DeVore


Its only a gateway drug because you have to associate with lowlifes and hard drug abusers to get it.

DeV.

Dev, not sure if I agree with you there. I have never been associated with your typical picture of going to somewhere, say Fatima Mansions to get my ounce. Neither have any of my friends. I think dealers are a little more upmarket these days and at the end of the day, each persons dealer is typically the one that comes into contact with the lowlife- if they do at all.

Tell me Turnip, is that your opinion too? I am interested to know. Besides students and people on the dole I know no dope smokers who arent quite well off and quite upstanding individuals.

amp

Ok back on topic. Debate about dope in another thread.

Also. There seems to be a trend to come into Humanities, tell a long story about a relative or friend that was the victim of a usually terrible crime and then tack on the end: "What's wrong with Irelands justice system".

If you want to debate Irelands justice system, that's fine. If you're using a thread to vent about a specific incident then that's not fine.

Carry on.

Valentia

Interesting comment. It seems to me that a discussion that starts out as a "vent" and goes into cannabis use is perfectly logical. The attack and my son brings the justice system into the equation but it is only a small part of the equation. Drug use, especially alcohol, is a major part of the problem. How a really dangerous drug like alcohol can be put in the same boat as hash is beyond me and the perception is mainly due to the fine marketing of the alcohol peddlers. BTW I love a pint myself and dont smoke dope but I would much prefer if youngsters were not bilging on booze and having the odd joint.

I reckon the mix of speed (amphetamine) and alcohol is the real reason that voilence. The total skewed logic of branding all illegal drugs together is cobblers. My father, 82, didn't realise until lately that there was a difference between cannabis and heroin. Many people younger then him think the same.

The attack on my son was drug related and that drug was alcohol, mabye mixed with speed but I'm not sure about that.

To try and "moderate" this discussion to exclude what seem to me to be totally related issues strikes me as strange to say the least. Let the topic develop and lets see what direction it takes.

BTW there have been no further developments in the case. The culprits have not been caught.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by RainyDay
I don't think there are any quick/easy solutions.

I do.

RainyDay

Care to share something with the rest of the class, Biffa?

seamus

Biffa's solutions will no doubt revolve around corporal punishment, castration, life imprisonment, etc, but nevertheless I'd love to hear some nuggets of wisdom too.

swiss

It is a sad reflection on society that attacks such as these are on the increase. Only last night, as I was leaving a niteclub, the resident DJ warned us to be careful leaving the premesis as there had already been an "incident" that night. The availability of alcohol is a major factor in these attacks, since the perpetrators are usually under the influence. I'm not necessarily saying that alcohol is responsible for loutish behaviour, but it certainly seems to act as a catalyst for violent and anti social actions.

I don't know if we can stop people with known violent tendencies to stop drinking alcohol, but we can sure as hell restrict the sale of alcohol to the general population. Until recently, I thought that the recent extension of pub opening times was a good move that allowed people to stay out longer (personally I am a bit of a night owl). However it is obvious that a significant percentage of the population either cannot handle alcohol or simply use it as a vent for their own personal problems.

I would recommending restricting the sale of alcohol in pubs/niteclubs, not necessarily shortening pub opening times, but the times where alcohol is served. People have got to learn that they can have a good time without getting completely wasted.

Valentia

I would recommending restricting the sale of alcohol in pubs/niteclubs

Well legally it it restricted. It is illegal to serve anyone that is drunk.

How often have you seen that happen?

ballooba

Originally posted by swiss
Only last night, as I was leaving a niteclub, the resident DJ warned us to be careful leaving the premesis as there had already been an "incident" that night.

Can you let me know the name of the club in question swiss?

I'd be interested to hear the name of sligo club also?

You can PM me if necessary.

[edit]btw this information will be held in confidence.[/edit]

TomF

When you look at Irish history and the stories of "faction fighting" with gouged-out eyes and fractured skulls, things don't seem to have changed much. My wife lived a time in England in the 50-s and 60s and asked a priest there why there was so much murder there when she only knew of one murder in Belfast (!) in her lifetime. He said it is because all the Irish criminals emigrate to England.

If that's true, then our present trouble is that the Irish criminals are staying in Ireland.

Mad_Patrick

The attack on my son was drug related and that drug was alcohol, mabye mixed with speed but I'm not sure about that.

Why do you feel it necessary to assume that more than just alcohol was involved?? People on speed would hug you before they punch you, thats my experience with people on speed anyway. Having being on the end of a hiding myself(luckily I can fight to protect myself) I know that alcohol alone is more than anyone needs to start a fight.

Valentia

No disrespect Patrick, but speed DOES make a person aggressive, very aggressive. Your friends weren't on speed even though they might believe they were. E, methalenedioxymethamphetamine, makes a person huggy, even hash but not speed.

Speed has been given to soldiers for decades to keep them awake but also to meke them aggressive. Ask those American pilots who are up in court at the moment for blowing a group of friendly Canadians out of it. They were gung ho on the stuff. BTW it was given to them "legally" by their superiors, weird or what?

I worked in the drugs business,not selling, but education and believe me a saw guys do some hairy stuff on speed.

The big problem is that when someone buys the stuff they could easily be getting E or any other $hit. Quality control isn't a strong point with the dealers.

Anyway I said "might". I didn't presume. Just that I believe the viciousness of the attacks happening now reflect the effects of speed.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Valentia
My young lad (19) was beaten to a pulp in Sligo last night. Some morons decided they wanted a few bob and creeled him. Worse a friend, an 18 year old woman of slight build was punched to the ground and punched in the head. She is still in hospital.

Sorry to hear that.

Is there any other animal on this planet that would do something like that. I don't think so. And people say thay drugs are ok. Gimme a break!!

Chimpanzees. Seriously. Nasty little buggers.

I dunno but as a parent this country seems to ahve lost the plot ;-(

Society has always been a compromise between Order and Freedom. Inadvertently, it is the same democratic rights that give us the right to march against wars on Iraq, etc., that are also the ones that grant the necessary legal freedoms that will often protect the perpetrators of such crimes. Additionally the move away from teaching any moral or ethical values or code (religious, national or otherwise) at home or schools has further aggravated the problem.

Bottom line is you can’t have your cake and eat it. If you want greater law and order, you will have to sacrifice some of your freedom. It’s the nature of Society - the imposition of a compromise for the good of the whole.

As for the perpetrators of the above attack; well... In the gate and up the chimney with them, methinks...

Von

A German woman I know was walking down westmoreland st and saw a young lad having the crap kicked out of him by some ruffian while people were walking by and a taxi was parked yards away. She had no phone so she goes up to the taxi driver and asks him to call the cops. He goes "Nah I don't want to get involved." The stupid arse relented eventually though. That attitude is fairly common among people who should know better.

Kell

Just on Von's point. It is a really sad aspect of modern society that the automatic reaction is to turn away rather than get involved. It highlights the selfishness of society as a whole. But then again, society nurtures selfishness and materialism. Every second ad on TV is for something for you, you, you and how it will improve your lifestyle, so in a way, social conditioning is a least part responsible for societies attitudes. Some people are more likely to get involved than others- examples- people who look after animals professionally, people who look after people professionally and I think in general people who's outlook and responsibility for whats going on extends beyond the end of their own noses. Again, theres a reduction in people entering professions that tend to others rather than being self serving and so the trend marches on.

Just on the whole alchohal thing- I think that alcho pops are in part to balme for the violence. They're full of sugar and alchohal, which, when tapped, can let out vast amounts of energy, strength and aggression. I dont think anyone can argue with me when I say that I have never seen more alchohal related acts of aggression since Vodka and Red Bull hit the market followed by a stream of juice+sugar+alchohal products. I remember when bouncers and pubs in Temple Bar didnt give a damn if you stood outside with the lads with your pint. Now look at it-

bonkey

That reminds me of an ad about just that which is on in the cinemas over here - it was shot locally in Berne.

Its a clip of two guys having a fight just outside the main train station - one of the busiest places in town. One guy is obviously hammering the other, and all the pedestrians are just walking around them looking a bit scandalised.

The frame freezes on the guy on the ground, and an overlay reads "this man is a professional actor". Roll forward to the other guy, beating our professional actor. Freeze frame again. "So is this man". Roll forward to crowd, pan back to see the numbers of people, freeze frame. "None of thse people are".

It was one of the most vivid ads I've ever seen on the subject, and the frightening thing is that I reckon it will have 0 impact on 99% of the people who see it. Then again, maybe a 1% audience is better than nothing.

jc

daveirl

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bonkey

I would imagine that the idea of the ad is to highlight how people dont want to get involved any more. I never bothered checking who its by.

I can understand a reticence to step into a fight, but I cannot understand the unwillingness to do anything

In today's society, mobile phones are prolifigate. However, I saw not a single concerned citizen in the ad phoning the police. Most seemed to want to get out of sight of the event as quickly as possible.

jc

Kell

Heres another unprovoked attack- my 16 year old nephew and friends sat outside local Spar shop minding own business. Car full of 19-21yr olds pulls and and one asks my nephew for a cigarette to which he replies he has none, and duly receives a head butt to the face. Seemingly, no alchohal involved. In relation to public awareness, no one takes the number plate of car and nephews friends take the nearest opportunity to scarper.

Another thing that I am convinced of is that if the victim of the attack decides "Fúck this" half way through having three shades of shít kicked out of him and bludgeons attacker to a pulp, the law will deal with him as heavily as if he had been the perp in the first place. The country has gone to the dogs it really has. I am 28 and the folks were asking me if I was sure if I wanted to go into the city centre last Friday for my own safety.

Von

Originally posted by Kell
Just on Von's point. It is a really sad aspect of modern society that the automatic reaction is to turn away rather than get involved. It highlights the selfishness of society as a whole. But then again, society nurtures selfishness and materialism. Every second ad on TV is for something for you, you, you and how it will improve your lifestyle, so in a way, social conditioning is a least part responsible for societies attitudes. Some people are more likely to get involved than others- examples- people who look after animals professionally, people who look after people professionally and I think in general people who's outlook and responsibility for whats going on extends beyond the end of their own noses.

Irish people aren't raised to be particularly assertive and they just don't know what to do when they're confronted with some situations. That doesn't mean they're necessarily selfish. I used to work in pubs and saw a lot of fights so I'd automatically call the cops at the first sign of aggro.

A friend of mine was walking home one night when a couple of lads pulled a knife on him and told him to hand over his cash. He's a chef and had his knives with him in his bag so he pulls out a huge f**king one and did the line from crocodile dundee whatever it is. The ruffians legged it.

RicardoSmith

Most people don't know what the best thing to do is. They need to take classes or something in social responsibility and what to do if... etc. They should teach this stuff in school too.

Most of the situations that arise can be avoided before they happen if people were more streetwise and more aware of personal safety issues. Theres simply no education available for these issues.

I've been in situations where someone has tried to start an unprovoked attack on me and have managed to avoid serious incidents by being very aware of whats going on around me. That said, I went to a school where there was trouble every day and its given me a great awareness of seeing trouble comming a long way off, simply by looking at body language and noticing unobvious things out of place.

daveg

I dont know about you guys but I'd feel safer going out in London or New York than Dublin.

shotamoose

Originally posted by daveg
I dont know about you guys but I'd feel safer going out in London or New York than Dublin.

I agree. Dunno what it is but there seems to be a far smaller proportion of nutters going around looking for fights in London than there is in Dublin. I've lived in London for about 18 months now and I haven't heard of anyone I know getting started on at random in the street, as would happen periodically in Dublin.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Most people don't know what the best thing to do is. They need to take classes or something in social responsibility and what to do if... etc. They should teach this stuff in school too.

Most of the situations that arise can be avoided before they happen if people were more streetwise and more aware of personal safety issues. Theres simply no education available for these issues.

I've been in situations where someone has tried to start an unprovoked attack on me and have managed to avoid serious incidents by being very aware of whats going on around me. That said, I went to a school where there was trouble every day and its given me a great awareness of seeing trouble comming a long way off, simply by looking at body language and noticing unobvious things out of place.

(I'm not repling to this, just wanted to make a copy for when Ricardo inevitably deletes anything he's saying :rolleyes: )

fig

Originally posted by daveg
I dont know about you guys but I'd feel safer going out in London or New York than Dublin.

agree. Dublin is the roughest city I've lived in. I've lived in London, and visited New York.

Hobart

Most people don't know what the best thing to do is. They need to take classes or something in social responsibility and what to do if... etc. They should teach this stuff in school too.

I presume your refering to a situation when somebody is directly confronted? I don't think most people get the chance to "see it coming etc...." A friend of mine was standing in a queue for a nightclub 2 - 3 months ago and was punched vicously in the face. Now apparently this is the new fad in dublin among ScumBags. i.e. see can you down an unsuspecting Joe Public with one punch. The fuc*er succeded in droping my mate, I was'nt there at the time but I saw the result, and it nearly blinded him. The days when you would come out with no more than a bloddy nose and possibly a sore pair of liarodi are long gone.

Most of the situations that arise can be avoided before they happen if people were more streetwise and more aware of personal safety issues. Theres simply no education available for these issues.

This is simply not true. Most of the violent incidences you here about are people at cash machines/bouncers assaulted at the door/people on the nite link goin home etc.... yes you can avoid certain areas but in terms of avoiding trouble, maybe if you moved to mars.

I've been in situations where someone has tried to start an unprovoked attack on me and have managed to avoid serious incidents by being very aware of whats going on around me. That said, I went to a school where there was trouble every day and its given me a great awareness of seeing trouble comming a long way off, simply by looking at body language and noticing unobvious things out of place

Again ok if you are directly confronted in a one on one situation. But if 3 - 4 guys approach you if does not matter if you are tucked up in your bed there is nothing getting you out of that situation (Unless you are Linford Christie)

RicardoSmith

For someone to attack you they have to be within striking distance. So rule 1, don't let someone get within striking distance. Always be aware if someone you don't know approaches.

For what ever reason where ever you are. Even if its 9am in the bosses office. Always scan a room for an out. Its good fire prevention anyway. If 3-4 guys approach me you'll definately see me doing a Linford Christie impression, and screaming at the top of my lungs. You'd be an idiot not to.

Personally I wouldn't use a cash machine if theres any people hanging around and I'm on my own. Turn my back on the street? Not very clever anywhere anytime. When you are travelling you'll learn not to show any money in the open. The cash point is the most unsafe place to be. Its like a taxi rank for muggers.

New York is pretty safe. However LA is the scariest city I've ever been in. Try downtown LA after midnight and then tell me you think Dublin is dangerous. That said I don't think Dublin is more dangerous than it was years ago. For me its always been a bit iffy. Then again I guess its all down to the experiences you have had growing up. I went to a rough-ish school and you learn to look out for number one pretty quick. Sure sometimes some scumbags will try it on anywhere just for the crack. I had one who tried to headbutt me on grafton street, on a sat lunchtime.

My point is that self defence and personal safety is something everyone should learn and be knowledgeable about. Not left wondering why getting on a night link half pissed on your own is a really bad idea in any city.

Hobart

Ricardo,

I admire your ability to be out of striking range from strangers. How do you manage that if you are in a pub? Wlaking down grafton st on a Saturday afternoon. Standing at a taxi rank? At a cash machine? Using a public phone? It's simply impossible to carry out everyday living if you were to avoid every situation where you potentially will get a punch. The guy who was recently attacked in clondalkin was using a cash machine on a main road. How could he have avoided being attacked?

Degrees of dangerness does not matter. I've been to NY and LA and I would agree with you that LA is more dangerous than NY but that does not matter. Dublin is a very very dangerous place. It's well documented that some parts of the city are no go areas and you cannot even use a cash machine in most places at night. Queing for a taxi, if your male, is taking your life in your hands, and if you female, you have every chance of being raped.

But it's not the city's fault. It's all down to individual responability. None of these scumbags has any idea about the value of life. Take that guy that was knifed in clondalkin. The scumbags that knifed him did'nt give a flying f*ck if he lived or died. For they cared his parents could have being burying him the following day. Those scumbags have no concept of what a family goes through when a murder takes place. I know about this first hand my brother was murdered last year while out having a drink (he was 27 BTW not 28 as the news reported. He was attacked by 3 guys and 1 girl who followed him and my other brother in a car after an exchange of words in a pub. Now these guys had 2 pick axe handles in the boot of thier car. They had been drinking in the same pub as John and Mark. John had "an exchange of words" with one guy in the loo's. Some hours later they were going home and were set upon in the car park of the pub. My brothers ran off and were chased in a car. They ran into a housing estate where they were trapped in a garden. The scumbags went "to work" on my 2 brothers.

Later that night I witnessed what was left of my brother. They did not murder John. They destroyed him. I can not put into words what they did to him. Thankfully he did'nt suffer and was dead before they stopped hitting him. Mark survived (Just). He had multiple fractures and nearly lost his right hand. He has physically recovered today. Mentally we are all still suffering. Sorry I'm ranting.

My point is that these scumbags have no idea what my family have and are going through. They have no concept of the suffering a family feels when somebody is taken in that fashion. And TBH they don't care. I am not an acfvocate of string them up etc... But I do hate myself for hating them. And I do hate them.

To get back on the point Ricardo. Dublin is a dangerous place. I don't live in LA I live here.

ballooba

RicardoSmith if MI5 see this thread you might even get a job out of it.