ODTR Review of eircom's Bitstream Pricing

dahamsta

ODTR News 23/08/2001

ODTR Review of eircom's Bitstream Pricing
Proposals

Introduction
Since the Decision Notice mandating bitstream access (ODTR document 00/30
'Report on the ODTR consultation on Local Loop Unbundling - Decision Notice
D6/00) in April 2000, the ODTR has supported the development of the
underlying arrangements and products for access to the local loop. However,
a review of supplier and platform change by eircom resulted in a delay of
the launch date for bitstream access from April to September 2001.

There have been substantial delays over the last few months in the provision
of pricing information by eircom and an initial review by the ODTR raises
possible concerns about cost orientation. The responsibility is on eircom to
ensure that proposed charges are cost oriented.

This Information Notice is issued to inform all interested parties of the
current position with respect to introduction of eircom's wholesale
Bitstream ADSL service.
Background
Following the publication of ODTR document 00/30, the ODTR convened two
industry working groups to agree arrangements for implementation of
bitstream access to the local loop, targeted for April 2001.

These groups, in advance of the LLU Regulation on other forms of Local Loop
Unbundling (Regulation 2887/2000 of the European Parliament and of the
Council on unbundled access to the local loop', also turned their attention
to preparing for implementation of full and shared unbundling. Information
on these forms of unbundling is available on the ODTR website www.odtr.ie
(see in particular ODTR document 01/27 'Local Loop Unbundling - Decision
Notice D8/01') and in the eircom Reference Access Offer (ARO) available on
www.eircom.ie.

Work on the bitstream product offerings was at an advanced stage early this
year when eircom decided in the light of a technical and commercial review
to change the equipment it would use to provide service and postpone the
launch planned for April 2001. The Bitstream Forum recommenced in May 2001.
An alternative bitstream product was identified and is currently under trial
by eircom and other licensed operators. Eircom propose to introduce a
wholesale bitstream product on 28th September 2001.
Pricing of Bitstream
Bitstream falls under the definition of Special Network Access and as such
is covered by the provisions of Regulation 20 of the European Communities
(Voice Telephony and Universal Service) Regulations, 1999 ("Voice Telephony
Regulations"). The responsibility is on eircom to ensure that proposed
charges are cost oriented. The ODTR is obliged to ensure that proposed
charges are cost oriented. The ODTR is also obliged to ensure effective
competition and maximum benefits in terms of price, choice and quality to
end users, and must be satisfied that these obligations are met by any such
new product introduced, in particular by a telecommunications operator with
Significant Market Power.

Despite first committing to provide pricing proposals to the ODTR by 11th
June 2001, eircom provided access to pricing proposals to the ODTR in full
only on 9th August, some 9 weeks later.

The initial ODTR review of the eircom proposal raises possible concerns that
cost orientation has not been proven. A schedule of these concerns will be
provided to eircom.

The responsibility remains with eircom to ensure cost orientation of the
proposed bitstream charges, and eircom is requested to furnish an adequately
and appropriately cost oriented submission to this Office in full by close
of business Wednesday September 5th, or before if possible.

The ODTR, due to the likely complex nature of this submission and the
detailed work required to analyse it which is in excess of that required for
compilation, will treat this review as a matter of utmost priority.
Specifically, the ODTR will continue to deploy the significant team already
engaged on this project, in order to complete its examination by two months
(or earlier) from the date of receipt of a complete submission.

Depending on the eircom submission, and its orientation to cost, the
Director will consider whether further action, such as the setting of
interim prices or an instruction to eircom in relation to its planned
launch, is appropriate and in the interests of effective competition and
maximum benefit to all users.

LegacyUser

ive never seen anything that long say so little.

so basically the odtr has rejected eircoms prices and are requesting new ones

dahamsta

I don't like this:

"Specifically, the ODTR will continue to deploy the significant team already engaged on this project, in order to complete its examination by two months (or earlier) from the date of receipt of a complete submission."

Two months from when? From when Eircom delivered the submission, LATE? Were Eircom fined for delivering the sumbission late?

adam

LegacyUser

From my reading it's worse than that. This bit "The responsibility remains with eircom to ensure cost orientation of the
proposed bitstream charges, and eircom is requested to furnish an adequately
and appropriately cost oriented submission to this Office in full by close
of business Wednesday September 5th, or before if possible." tells me that the ODTR have not received a completed submission. So it appears to be 2 months from September 5th at the earliest. Pathetic all round.

LegacyUser

How do eircom continuously get away with this?? From what i read there, they could have released this at the start of the year? They delay until april... Then further delay until now. Present their prices to the odtr 9 weeks late, only for them to be incomplete? And is now further delaying the process.

This really is very irritating, eircom should indeed be fined hugely.

LegacyUser

I believe that the ODTR can only impose limited penalties. Their lack of pressure on the government to provide them *now* with the means to impose higher penalties is a damning indictment of their management (notwithstanding regulatory powers bills that appear to be taking 10 years to go through).

LegacyUser

what was the point of selling of eircon? do allow competition? how did they achieve this? it seems they should have all this regulatory powers stuff sorted before letting governement control go...

the eircon ****eers rang me yesterday to ask if i knew i was using a different carrier for my business calls...and did i now realize i would be getting 2 bills instead of just one...

just trying to "scare" me into coming back to them. ffs, she didnt even offer me a discount or entice me back, just tried to "confuse" me into signing up with them again. sad.

LegacyUser

Two bills my blox, your with chorus right?
you wont have to pay Eiricks rental

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gladiator:
ive never seen anything that long say so little.

so basically the odtr has rejected eircoms prices and are requesting new ones</font>

I must agree ... this should be in the Guinness Book Of Records for taking so many words to say so little.

Will Eircom now be introducing ADSL as planned or do we have to wait another two months from September?

This whole saga is becoming rather tedious.

dahamsta

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">it seems they should have all this regulatory powers stuff sorted before letting governement control go...</font>

So true, so sad, so stupid.

adam

Kix

Grrr...

The ODTR should return their government- issued dentures and get a proper set of teeth.

Watching them deal with Eircom is like watching a small child begging his older brother to "play fair" and not getting a lot of attention 'cos mummy's not helping.

K

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kix:
Grrr...

The ODTR should return their government- issued dentures and get a proper set of teeth.

Watching them deal with Eircom is like watching a small child begging his older brother to "play fair" and not getting a lot of attention 'cos mummy's not helping.

K</font>

I don't think this is being fair on the ODTR.

I remember that they responded years ago to the Infrastructure Bill outline, and then the Communications Bill outline, requesting adequate powers to deal effectively with Eircom without having to cow-tow to a whinging monopoly.

The Infrastructure Bill was let quietly fall and The Communications Bill idles in Kildare Street. It is up to Minister O'Rourke and the Government Chief Whip Seamus Brennan T.D. to get together and give the regulator the teeth she needs in short enough order to allow her to bite rather than pet Eircom.

It is great to see the regulator standing up to Eircom with this decision. She has sent them back with their tail between their legs, to come up with a 'cost orientated' price that isn't an abuse of their dominant position. It only shows that she is not prepared to let the consumer be whipped by Eircom's bully boy pricing tactics.

Well Done to Etain and her DSL Team!!

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rardagh:

It is great to see the regulator standing up to Eircom with this decision. She has sent them back with their tail between their legs, to come up with a 'cost orientated' price that isn't an abuse of their dominant position. It only shows that she is not prepared to let the consumer be whipped by Eircom's bully boy pricing tactics.
</font>

I agree wholeheartedly. Eircom tried to act the maggot, and the told them where to go. An we have a problem with that?

BTW: Are you the same Rory Ardagh ex of Formus? If so, I apologise for my derogatory comments the other day on some other topic...

LegacyUser

What exactly can the ODTR do? Ask Eircom politely to change it's prices?And if they refuse, say awe come on,please??

Seems kind of pointless to have it there, pointing out the problems, but not being able to do anything about them.

I would LOVE to see Eircom forcibly unbundle the loop and set real, competitive pricing, and then get fined heavily for all the crapping about they've been doing for the last few years.

LegacyUser

So, lets understand the overall timetable:

Late 1999 - internal ADSL trials, eircom using Newbridge kit, half the world using Alcatel kit.

February 2000 - Alcatel buys Newbridge

April 2001 - promise of Bitstream access for LLU

Summer 2001 - eircom changes technology supplier to Alcatel (Didn't Alcatel buy Newbridge last year and wasn't eircom using Newbridge already so what took a year to decide?) and delays Bitstream to September with pricing promised for 11th June

11th June - nothing happens

9th August - eircom delivers pricing to ODTR who rejects the submission

23 August - TODAY - some TWO years since trials of ADSL started in Ireland

---

Sept 5th - new pricing to be submitted by eircom

Sept 28 - eircom supposed to launch Bitstream service - with what pricing?

Nov 5th (or earlier) - ODTR will approve/ reject / impose pricing decision on eircom

---

Anybody notice the footdragging here? This is what happens when a monopolist is in control.

The ODTR should impose a Bitstream price on eircom straight away.

---

Linux will win!

LegacyUser

Thats pathetic, Why cant the odtr force them to choose a price that is fair?
I seriously want to kick someone's ass, an eircon ass, just give me a name & address 7 ill sort the rest out >=(

LegacyUser

Sigh.

LegacyUser

Well surely we can extrapolate some great questions from this thread!

Lets have your submissions!!

LegacyUser

This has got to have something to do with the impending sale of Eircom.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Blue Max:
So, lets understand the overall timetable:

Late 1999 - internal ADSL trials, eircom using Newbridge kit, half the world using Alcatel kit.

February 2000 - Alcatel buys Newbridge

April 2001 - promise of Bitstream access for LLU

Summer 2001 - eircom changes technology supplier to Alcatel (Didn't Alcatel buy Newbridge last year and wasn't eircom using Newbridge already so what took a year to decide?) and delays Bitstream to September with pricing promised for 11th June

11th June - nothing happens

9th August - eircom delivers pricing to ODTR who rejects the submission

23 August - TODAY - some TWO years since trials of ADSL started in Ireland

---

Sept 5th - new pricing to be submitted by eircom

Sept 28 - eircom supposed to launch Bitstream service - with what pricing?

Nov 5th (or earlier) - ODTR will approve/ reject / impose pricing decision on eircom

</font>

thats a great summary max, it really shows how pathetic eircom is

Considering that the ODTR rejected Eircom's pricing structure, is it possable that Eircom can submit more and more unacceptable pricing structures to the ODTR, knowing that the ODTR will reject them and hence add another '2 month' delay onto the adsl waiting list... ?

dahamsta

thats a great summary max, it really shows how pathetic eircom is

Actually, I don't think it does. I think it demonstrates the vast amounts of time, energy and money Eircom have ploughed, and continue to plough into stopping OLO's using their network. If Eircom had used those resources sensibly, yes, they would have had more competition working against them, but they would be a far stronger company.

Considering that the ODTR rejected Eircom's pricing structure, is it possable that Eircom can submit more and more unacceptable pricing structures to the ODTR, knowing that the ODTR will reject them and hence add another '2 month' delay onto the adsl waiting list... ?

This is a subject that genuinely worries me. I mean, you can see from the timeline that the same thing is happening over and over again. The ODTR are toothless - although I take the point that that may not entirely be their fault - but considering the timescale here, why hasn't something been done about it?

This is something that needs to be tackled heavily at the seminar. Difficult questions should be asked, and people answering should be cut off as soon as they start spouting rhetoric. Blame should be apportioned, so problems can be resolved, and questions *have* to be answered:

The ODTR needs to be asked if they have plans in place to fine or otherwise punish Eircom for non-compliance and the lack of co-operation. The punishments need to be defined to the public, so we can decide if they are appropriate.

If they aren't appropriate, the Government needs to be asked why the Telecommunications Regulator has been left with so little power to deal with such an anti-competitive company. They need to be asked if they actually have a plan to deal with the problems, and if so, what it is.

The OLO's need to be made commit publically to supplying the products and services that would become available with bitstream access and local loop unbundling. They need to be asked why they have consistently failed to pressure Eircom and the Government publically.

Nasty questions *need* to be asked. Blame must be apportioned. Solutions need to be defined, and *implemented*.

And Eircom needs to be whipped.

adam

dahamsta

Question for Mary O'Rourke while I think of it: Is the Competition Authority precluded from taking action against Eircom for their anti-competitive behaviour because of the existence of the Telecommunications Regulator? If not, why hasn't the Competition Authority taken action against Eircom. If so, can this be changed?

adam

LegacyUser

The Competition Authority is even more toothless than the ODTR. It has also had a lot of internal problems. No joy there I'm afraid.

Can't help but draw the conclusion that there needs to be a complete government review of all the regulatory structures.

In the meantime, perhaps we should consider taking our case to Europe. They might not be too impressed with some of the carry-on that is going on here and if they're listening to 'officals' from Ireland they won't hear much.

After all, it was Europe that brought about deregulation in the first place.

There might be a lot more sympathy for our case than we realise and it might put the wind up the shower here.

LegacyUser

Well there are a couple of questions not asked here.Firstly let me say if you didnt see this coming way back in january i can only asume your all optomists.The more important question is A,How much does it cost to run the ODTR ie how much of our hard earned tax money go,s towards keeping what is in affect a useless department that has no powers and no visible use what so ever, B,Dont you think its a little bit funny that no one in goverment (with any real power)has step forward to put an end to this monoply and general holding back of telecomunications in ireland.Corruption in the irish goverment "NEVER" The sad fact is that in a year or two when goverments start playing musical chairs again this will be dragged out and we will have the eircom tribunal which will cost us Tax Payers even more countless millions just to find out that the peron/person`s responsible no longer live in ireland or are too ill to stand trial.


Stone

LegacyUser

Irish Times story.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> "We are concerned that they haven't proven their prices are cost orientated," a spokeswoman for the regulator's office said. "Cost orientation means Eircom can recover the costs of an efficient operator plus a reasonable return on capital."</font>

LegacyUser

And now to add insult to injury Eircom have introduced a marketing campaign based on a Mutant Mouse ... the aim of this is to encourage more people to use the Internet. Is this proof that they are offering a Mickey Mouse service.

LegacyUser

ive been saying this for months now, that bitstream llu had to happen in august,
and that it would take 3 months after it prices were set and it started for the first exchanges to be given access. Ie eircom would be selling adsl for 3 motnhs before esat.
The odtr has stated serveral times that it bitstream access is not settled by the end of august fines would be given,
The odtr has back down on this by given untill the 5 of september for new prices.
at least its shows a change in the odtr, no long willing to give huge lengths of time for eircon to get its act together,

i do believe if eircon dont come back with suitable prices on the 5th that they will be fined, and given a new deadline, after which interim prices will be set, (probably the 28 of sept) to allow adsl roll out to happen.
Far to long have we waited for this to happen, and eircon would be fools not the sort it out now, for the first time in the whole mess do eircon have something to loose by holding out,
With Chorus ready to launch in the south of dublin soon, and two way sat comeing in september, eircom is set to face ever monthing competition.

We are eircon target market, heavy users and ths sooner they stop ****ing us off the better they will be