IrelandOffline to Meet ODTR - any suggestions?

LegacyUser

A meeting has been arranged for 3rd July between IrelandOffline and ODTR.

It is very important that we go into this meeting well prepared. We want to avoid it becoming a 'general chat' with ODTR stating broad policies, etc. - we want to ask very specific questions that will require very specific answers.

We would welcome suggestions on such questions. If you do not want to post them here feel free to email me direct (click on email above this post).

Please bear in mind that this will be our first meeting with ODTR so we shouldn't expect too much but we should aim to 'pin down' the Director as much as possible!

Martin Harran
IrelandOffline

LegacyUser

Eircom are an unfair monopoly.
Have no interest in customer needs.

Abandon those stupid regions, that stop chorus and NTL and Eircom providing TV in the same areas.

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Britany Spears Looking incredible

LegacyUser

I saw an ad for bt on tv, its was offering 24/7 56k access. I know most people are talking about broadband but i think flat rate always on 56k access is very impotant too. Plus it will probably or should come before a decent broadband offer.

Please ask them exactly when will this be available and point out this makes us pretty much paddy fvcking last in europe.

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Dotsie
ICQ: 44472574
www.dotsies.com
dotsie@dotsies.com

dahamsta

Off the top of my head:

Is the Director going to set pricing for the new flat-rate numbers she assigned?

Is there a timetable/deadline for local loop unbundling?

Is there a timetable/deadline for direct regulatory action against Eircom?

adam

sceptre

Agree with all so far, especially Adam's three points. Plus I think that 24/7 unmetered (really unmetered as opposed to some murky undefined unmetered) access needs to become a reality.

Also, what action is going to be taken against companies awarded broadband licenses who are not fulfilling the terms of their licenses? And when?

(as we know, broadband will come eventually with or without action from the ODTR - the point is that if the ODTR make a proper effort this access will come sooner - if it takes a year then the ODTR have failed totally in their objectives)

Given that the ODTR don't seem to have the proper power to enforce the EU regulations on unbundling, realitically we need a body with teeth to be set up (this perhaps is a matter more for MORourke rather than EDoyle though)

LegacyUser

Martin, Both the statements below are from the their own External Strategy Group's report released in 1999.

I think it might be of use to you, then again maybe not. There is a lot of info on their Web page.

"a. The purpose of the Office of the Director of Telecommunications Regulation is to serve Irish telecoms users by actively facilitating the development of a leading competitive market for electronic communications services and infrastructure in Ireland."

Role of Telecoms Sector in Ireland

A number of reports commissioned by Government indicate that network-related business will play a leading part in the country’s overall economic strategy, if not the leading role. The development and success of such national strategies will provide a critically important context for the regulation of the market for telecoms services.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dotsie~tmp:
I saw an ad for bt on tv, its was offering 24/7 56k access. I know most people are talking about broadband but i think flat rate always on 56k access is very impotant too. </font>

Given the inablity to motivate themselves (Eircom/ODTR et al)to bring broadband to the masses we must analyse what can be done here & now. I think the reintroduction of a similar SNL service is the immediate concern that the ODTR can ammend with the click of her fingers. There has been a significant proportion expressing this opinion also in the e-mails I have received from the "Eircom DSL £40...." thread. Broadband is the ultimate goal and we should not waiver from this, but realistically in the short term enforcment of the 1890's Flat rate numbers is paramount.

By the way Martin, I will e-mail my amalgamated findings before your meeting w/ the ODTR.

80p.

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80project.com

LegacyUser

In agreement with chernobyl:

Cable Internet and Telephony:

1. What measures will the the ODTR introduce to encourage competition in the cable TV industry? (we still have 1950s style cable for most of the country). Does she feel that the setting of targets is working?
2. When setting the targets for NTL, why was it only in terms of digital TV? The whole purpose of the forced sale of cablelink was to encourage competition with Eircom.
3. When NTL decided to halt full upgrading of Dublin, Waterford and Galway they were in clear breach of their licence agreements. Why did the regulator not terminate the licence or at least end the exclusivity of NTLs franchise. (we don't know what NTL might have threatened in this event).
4. NTL talks about introducing cable modem Internet access in "areas of high demand". What areas are these? Do they coincide with the already upgraded areas? (I think we have a right to know - we have no choice but to use them).
5. Does the exclusive nature of NTLs licence prevent Eircom from offering video on demand over ADSL links?
6. In regulating radio frequencies, it is important that companies be assigned different frequencies to prevent interference. Does the regulator think that this should apply to cable operators except in a geographical sense?

Local Loop Unbundling:

1. Has Eircom actually initiated proceedings against the ODTR on the pricing issue?
2. If not, Eircom are using the threat of litigation to create uncertainty in OLOs. What will the ODTR do to bring stability to the pricing of LLU and assure OLOs.

'3G' licences[*]I understand that there is a dissagreement between the ODTR and the Dept. of Finance over the pricing of these licences with the ODTR wanting a lower price. Why? Are we not already paying for the high prices paid in other countries through our current mobile bills (Eircell is owned by Vodaphone, Digifone is owned by BT)?[*]Is the regulator planning to impose price caps on 3G operators in Ireland?


ADSL

1. In light of the fact that vast sums of public money have been spent on bringing bandwidth into the country, will Eircom be allowed to impose caps on the amount of data that can be accessed in a given time period by home users when they introduce ADSL.
2. When rejecting Eircom's pricing for LLU, the ODTR mentioned price factors introduced by Eircom that were irrelavent to LLU. What were these?
3. Is the ODTR aware of the number of splitters or 'DACS' boxes in use in the country? (these prevent the use of ADSL and slow down old 56K connections).

Hope this helps.

Regards
Skeptic1
(Concerned net user)




[This message has been edited by Skeptic1 (edited 25-06-2001).]

LegacyUser

In my opinion the suggestions so far are excellent. But we must not become to distracted from the fact that this campaign was set up because we lost our off-peak 'affordable' SNL. First and foremost this is what we immediately need to regain preferably also with a choice of 24/7 56k access,the type of thing that's readily available over the border. Of course we need broadband and LLU etc asp but SNL could be had here and now if the ODTR would impose a competitive wholesale price on Eircom.

Good luck Martin and Elana, and thanks for all your outstanding efforts.

Bannerman

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bannerman:
In my opinion the suggestions so far are excellent. But we must not become to distracted from the fact that this campaign was set up because we lost our off-peak 'affordable' SNL. First and foremost this is what we immediately need to regain preferably also with a choice of 24/7 56k access,the type of thing that's readily available over the border. Of course we need broadband and LLU etc asp but SNL could be had here and now if the ODTR would impose a competitive wholesale price on Eircom.
</font>

Well different people have different priorities. I would certainly hope to see some sort of SNL in the near future. It has worked very well in Britain. Another question might be:

Does the ODTR have the statutary power to impose a flat wholesale rate on Eircom for use in the new prefix numbers?

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Skeptic1:

Cable Internet and Telephony:

'3G' licences</font>

Important issues Skeptic but IrelandOffline is only concerned with

Flat Rate Access Local Loop Unbundling Broadband

Martin

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by o_donnel_abu:
Important issues Skeptic but IrelandOffline is only concerned with

Flat Rate Access Local Loop Unbundling Broadband

Martin</font>

Well, my point with cable interenet and telephony is that NTL were planning to introduce both broadband and 24/7 flat-rate dialup access to their franchise regions. It is due to lack of competition, IMHO, that they pulled out of these markets. They are heavily in debt, but that is not stopping them rolling out these services in Britain, indeed, they have to if they want to maintain their market share. Cable modem internet is the way most people in the US get access to broadband. The ODTR seems to have shown a lack of understanding in this regard. It is my view that competition in both telephony, video-on-demand (which would have required ADSL from Eircom - and they wanted to do this) and internet between Eircom, NTL (and chorus) would have given at least parts of the country a choice between ADSL and Cable Internet.

LegacyUser

IrelandOffline is only concerned with

Flat Rate Access
Local Loop Unbundling
Broadband

Martin


What is the point if we don't have telephones? What about DACS?

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Skeptic1:
Cable modem internet is the way most people in the US get access to broadband. The ODTR seems to have shown a lack of understanding in this regard
</font>

Fair point, but i'm just a 'little' bit nervous about making our agenda too wide and giving them room to hide

Martin


[This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 26-06-2001).]

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by murcielago:
What about DACS?</font>

I only became aware of DACS issue over last few days. It seems important to me as it affects broadband implementation.

Any suggestions on what we should be saying to ODTR on this? Does it come within her Terms of Reference?

Martin



[This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 26-06-2001).]

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by o_donnel_abu:

Fair point, but i'm just a 'little' bit nervous about making our agenda too wide and giving them room to hide

Martin</font>

Yes. LLU has the advantage of being backed by European Law and voted upon unanimously by the Council of Ministers (not sure whether our minister attended ). I can certainly understand if the discussion needs to be limited to LLU, ADSL, and "FRIACO".

Still, it is unusual to have LLU and ADSL without the choice of cable internet. Cable internet is much more widespread internationally than xDSL. I think NTL and Chorus are in a similar position to Eircom in using their monopoly to extract money without innovation.

Then again, people have very low expectations of the cable companies here. Most people are happy with "the channels".

LegacyUser

We have to do a small list, instead a big one for one simple reason: we can talk more about those, and go deeply about them than making a superficial meeting.

We certainly need a flat-rate in Ireland, like the needed in other countries. The development of the e-commerce is suffering all around europee for that reason. The more time we spend online the more will buy, and if it's an irish site, will contribute to the irish economy.

The possibility of teleworking (working from home). We can work from home, with no need of leasing/renting space or going to the place of work, with the contribution to more people to setup their own e-bussiness.

There're a lot of advantages, there's nothing against it.

We need to make her aware of the DACS and splitters all around ireland, and why not declaring Internet like an "Universal Service" which means, that every irish person will have the right to use the net, and that companies will keep upgrading the systems due to possible severe fine, in the case of not doing so. That has been done already in Spain, Switzerland, Sweeden ... So, the phone companies have to give at least, a very good basic service, which is estipulated by LAW.

Anyway, just a few thoughts. Probably you'll think their absurd but I think it reflect some real situations.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JamworkS:
We need to make her aware of the DACS and splitters all around ireland, and why not declaring Internet like an "Universal Service" which means, that every irish person will have the right to use the net, </font>

A possible question here might be:

Universal service currently applies to basic voice. In the future will this also apply to Internet access? When?

As was mentioned on ie.comp, I agree that it's very important to get timescales whenever the ODTR says they intend to do something.

LegacyUser

Let's face it: it'll be years before 100% of the Irish population have access to broadband. As such, I think that 24/7 56k and 64k (single-channel ISDN) access are probably the most important issues for Irish internet users right now.

Don't get me wrong; broadband is important as well. However, right now, what we need is flat rate analogue and ISDN access like they have in the UK.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Urban Weigl:
Don't get me wrong; broadband is important as well. However, right now, what we need is flat rate analogue and ISDN access like they have in the UK.</font>

Balance is the important thing. The two issues, flat-rate 56K and broadband, compliment each other and serve to emphasise the inadaquacy of Internet access in Ireland. This needs to be brought home to the ODTR who tend to publish surveys about how we are generally satisfied with the situation.

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by o_donnel_abu:
IrelandOffline is only concerned with

Flat Rate Access Local Loop Unbundling Broadband

Martin</font>

As others have said, uptil now there have been 2 main sources of consumer broadband (in those countries that have it) - DSL and Cable. I think it essential that you include cable broadband as an issue.

Roy

LegacyUser

Please read this carefully.

Your average American Internet user uses the Internet for 28 hours per month, which is about an hour per day. What's important to remember here is that this statistic shows the average American Internet user, NOT the average American family.

So if you have a family of 2 parents and 2 teenagers, and each individual is using the Internet for an hour per day, that's 4 hours every single day of the month! Now let's assume they sign up with Everyone's Internet in the US. They will pay $10 for the phone line, and another $10 for their ISP account. That's a total of $20 per month, or $240 a year.

Now let's assume the same family were to live in Ireland. Here, they pay £12 for the phone line each month, and get their ISP for free with Eircom's "Go further for free" plan. If they use 50% of their online time during peak hours, and the other half during off peak hours, that's IR£138 plus £12 for line rental EVERY SINGLE MONTH. That's IR£1800 per annum. I think you should bring this up with the ODTR, because that's quite a price difference!

dahamsta

I'm probably - hopefully - lucky in that I live in an urban area not too far away from my local exchange, so maybe this could be seen as biased, but I have to agree with Urban Weigl. Broadband is very important, as is always-on, but flat-rate / unmetered is something that could be rolled out nationally, therefore it will affect a much larger portion of the population. You roll out a flat-rate service, you'll get more people online, and you'll get more people spending more time online. That'll boost eCommerce, eBusiness and eAwareness, terms that governments love. It'll also boost interest in broadband, and so will put more pressure on the incumbent and the OLO's to unbundle - or fight to unbundle - the local loop and roll out broadband services. And, I might add, it will give IrelandOffline a wider userbase.

Martin, I think this would be a good topic to bring to the attention of the Regulator. Flat rate / unmetered access is something that will make the government look good. It'll boost numbers that are very important to them. If the Regulator could bring this to the attention of the government, they might be more inclined to give the Regulator more powers to deal with Eircom (and the OLO's of course).

I have another question for the Regulator:

Will the Regulator take a survey of a wide group of consumers and SME's with regard to satisfaction/dissatisfaction with the current Irish telecommunications market? If so, will the Regulator co-operate with Ireland Offline to create and run that survey, with the objective of making it fair and transparent in the eyes of the people most affected?

adam

LegacyUser

dahamsta, those are some very good points about how the availability of unmetered Internet access will boost eCommerce, eBusiness and eAwareness.

LegacyUser

Just had another thought... You might want bring up the sad fact that Internet users based in Ireland can not realistically take part in Internet-based cancer research projects because of the lack of unmetered access.

LegacyUser

I would have to agree with others, we should try to get 24:7 flat rate 56k access implemented effective immediately, and still campaign for broadband in the coming months. If we could get the ODTR to do this, I think we would all be happy campers.

I have said many times before, there is absolutely NOTHING stopping Eircom from introducing a flat rate service in the next few hours, please can the ODTR force them to?
At the moment the ODTR has left it up to the ISPs to negotiate with Eircom for a flat rate service, can’t the ODTR do more?

LegacyUser

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Urban Weigl:
Just had another thought... You might want bring up the sad fact that Internet users based in Ireland can not realistically take part in Internet-based cancer research projects because of the lack of unmetered access.</font>

Can you expand on this, Urban ?

Martin

Stephen

its like the SETI@Home project... a "distributed group" - your computer downloads a chunk of data and analyses it with the aim of millions of people doing this at once ,constantly across the net with the ultimate goal of "discovering" a cure for cancer... or extra-terrestrial life in the case of SETI@Home.

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- Munch

LegacyUser

I hope that the campaign takes advantage of the meeting with the ODTR to raise broadband (in particular LLU) issues as well as flat-rate 56K. As I said before, the two issues complement each other. One does not preclude the other.

There may not be too many oportunities to get these points accross. If some issues are not communicated, then it may be seen as a concession on the part of the campaign.

ODTR: "Yes we met with the committee, but they did not mention anything about broadband".

It is true that it will be some time before broadband is an option for the majority of net users but that is all the more reason to start now. By pressuring for both, the ODTR might push for a FRIACO deal with Eircom as a "compromise". As has been said, it does not involve any technical issues and takes some pressure off the ODTR immediately.

If the discussion needs to be narrowed down, then it should be:

1. Introduce a flat-rate price for the new prefixes and impose it on Eircom.
2. Speed up the LLU process. Get a timescale for completion.

The ODTR have messed up in handling the Cable Internet issues and I would like answers to this, but it is probably too late to do anything about it.

There may not be too many meetings with the ODTR so it's important to get the main points of the campaign on the table.

All the above is my own opinion and I am not a member of the committee.


[This message has been edited by Skeptic1 (edited 27-06-2001).]

dahamsta

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">ODTR: "Yes we met with the committee, but they did not mention anything about broadband".</font>

True, very very true. Still though, just to be clear, I wasn't saying broadband isn't an issue that should be discussed / asked about, I just think that flat-rate should be the priority. Users need something to keep the phone bills down now. Broadband would be a bonus, although it should be made quite clear that it's bonus we should have had access to a long time ago.

adam

LegacyUser

you should ask what the confusion in eircom is about, why one department make press releases saying adsl will be out in september but while talking to a person in their PR department, they said they has no plains to introduce it in the near future.

Kix

I'd just like to add my voice to the call to push the issue of unmetered access.

I've been thinking about it for a while recently and I'd probably go for unmetered ISDN over ADSL in a flash, if the price difference was significant. It would suit most gamers and surfers down to the ground.

The price of ISDN line rental is too high - it shouldn't be double the cost of an analogue line. Most people don't use it as a second line. Even if they do, part of your line rental is to cover overheads which are not doubled because you have a second line.

dahamsta

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">you should ask what the confusion in eircom is about, why one department make press releases saying adsl will be out in september but while talking to a person in their PR department, they said they has no plains to introduce it in the near future.</font>

That's not really the Regulator's problem Gladiator, it's just plain ignorance or disinformation inside Eircom. It's unlikely the Regulator would be able to do anything about it.

adam

Gavin

Just on the point of unlimited 56k access. It is very important also from a business point of view. By enabling always on connections, even small bandwidth ones, it opens the way for new technologies. Predominantly for Application Service Providers. This is the way the internet is shaping with microsoft's .NET, and various companies in the US. Ordinary consumers just can't use these servies without an always on connection.

Gav


[This message has been edited by Verb (edited 27-06-2001).]

LegacyUser

but thats half the problem, you should hear some of the story about esat, the different departments hate each other, they are allways trying to get one one on each other, and ever since oceanfree joined esat its gotthen worse with both claiming they took over the other

dahamsta

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">but thats half the problem, you should hear some of the story about esat, the different departments hate each other, they are allways trying to get one one on each other, and ever since oceanfree joined esat its gotthen worse with both claiming they took over the other</font>

Oh, I agree with you, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing half the time, and the infighting is pathetic. But that's still not a regulatory problem IMHO. That's just incompetence and bad organisation within the companies, which is up to the management to correct. You know the management - the ones who can't find their own bottoms?

adam

adam

LegacyUser

o_donnel_abu, I think Stephen pretty much answered your question about how online cancer research works. Just would like to add that they aren't really looking for a "magic cure for cancer", but rather researching now ways of treating it. You basically donate your computers spare processor time for a good cause. Of course this only works if you leave your computer online for a few hours a day.

dahamsta

Are you sure? Doesn't it work like SETI@HOME, in that you only need to be connected to collect datasets and send back results?

adam

LegacyUser

Maybe you should prompt Etain to adopt the attitude she has taken w/ The mobile Phone Operators re: Competition & Prices and apply them to the Internet predicament we face. Look what liberalisation has done there. Every Yobo that breaths has a mobile phone nowadays & look @ the multiplier effect it has had on retail related sales and the improvements it has made in the conduct of business.

I know its yet another suggestion- I think you could probably wallpaper a house with the “long” list suggestions we can muster at this point I time, but still noteworthy!

80p.

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80project.com

LegacyUser

Here's another one (still on the LLU track).

xDSL services are usually limited in distance (typically up to about 2.5Km). This means that many consumers in rural areas will not be able to receive the service. Will the ODTR mandate Eircom to allow OLOs to install DSL repeaters so that the range can be extended to these consumers?

LegacyUser

It seems that yer all forgetting the educational side to the net, I just finished the LC there and for the past few years at school everything is online, study sites, homework help, the CAO applications, even your results and then further again to an even greater extent college relies on you haveing access to the net really especially if your in as rural an area as i am!...should this not also be brought up? i mean the department of education sent me out on a few occasions this year a flier with "don't be a dinosaur go online" they should be fighting this fight too i believe?

Farls