Anti-Americanism or How to flog a dead horse

Loomer

I could rain down a hail of laser-sighted cruise expletives against the use of the over-used "anti-americanism" crap but that would be rather hawkish and unilateralist of me now wouldn't it.

All I can say to these people, who cling to this euphamism like a stoic captain going down with his ship of irrational thought, is GET SOME COP ON!!!

It is this ill-thought out knee-jerk response that countless world leaders are using to force feed the masses through the idiot box as the only counter to the reasoned arguments of the anti-war collective. As much as Saddam Hussein IS an evil bastard, supporting the kind of military action America and its Axis of Evil promises the Iraqi people shows an absolute disregard of a fundamental emotion of human beings in a civilised society and that is EMPATHY.

Anyone who supports the war is either completly devoid of it or brainwashed.

That is all.

Snowball

Loomer, u off the strong stuff again?

Well said though. The term is used way to much and most of the ppl just use it as a sound bite.

word.

ykt0di9url7bc3

Just wondering....

Ever since Iraq invaded Kuwait has not the U.S.A. been at War with Iraq? Containing Saddam's so called Millitary machine and industrial progress?...

The Bush administration is now looking to escalate the fighting to ground troops by getting UN approval...

...Who you convince on this website or on the street Loomer is avoiding the real people you need to convince (the people that havent made up their minds about this decision but yet have to rule on it) the United Nations...considering the U.S.A's troop despositions, the battle ground, weathar and political sway of voters in the U.S. War maybe just around the corner...leaving you to convince our government to speak out against war in the UN...

...I have little faith in Anti-War movement in Ireland to achieve this (how long does it take for our leaders to listen and to act on our wishes?)

Save your breath and spirit Loomer for Ideas on helping the UN condem the plans laid out by President Bush and PM Blair

Cork

Anti-Americanism or How to flog a dead horse

Where is the horse?


I think - the UN report presented by Dr. Blix has been damning on Saddam.

I think Ireland is not Anti-American. I think Shane Ross was right yesterday - when he stated that the Celtic Tiger was led by Boston.

I think Irish Americans have done alot for Ireland.

I think that Dr. Blix's report is quiet frank.Nobody wants war. But I think Saddam needs to satisfy the UN resolution requirements.


But there is some anti American sentiment. This is confined to a minority.

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
Where is the horse?

It's a metaphor. There isn't really a horse.

I think - the UN report presented by Dr. Blix has been damning on Saddam.

<cough> Relevancy of soundbite?

I think Ireland is not Anti-American. I think Shane Ross was right yesterday - when he stated that the Celtic Tiger was led by Boston.

Ditto

I think Irish Americans have done alot for Ireland.

Ditto.

I think that Dr. Blix's report is quiet frank.Nobody wants war. But I think Saddam needs to satisfy the UN resolution requirements.

Ditto.

But there is some anti American sentiment. This is confined to a minority.

Assuming that to be correct, there's a problem with people being accused of being anti-American (on this board as well as elsewhere) just because they don't think the US should invade. Or even if they do and they diss the US. Or any other action that would be considered sedition if the US government were allowed to enact a law about sedition (tried that before, unconstitutional and all that)

It's not my job to accuse you of dropping soundbites into posts for no coherent reason (gandalf has already covered that base rather well) but it's a little annoying to have to read it time after time. We have threads so that people can stick to the point of the original post in some way, rather than just having a big brohaha like Usenet would be without any thread names. Most of us can manage it most of the time.

(note to mods - I'm not trying to start a flame war and I'm still dealing with the post(s) rather than the poster)

Meh

Originally posted by sceptre
there's a problem with people being accused of being anti-American (on this board as well as elsewhere) just because they don't think the US should invade. Or even if they do and they diss the US. Or any other action that would be considered sedition if the US government were allowed to enact a law about sedition (tried that before, unconstitutional and all that)

OK, what about people who accuse the USA of being behind the 9/11 attacks? Are we allowed call them anti-American?

sceptre

Originally posted by Meh
OK, what about people who accuse the USA of being behind the 9/11 attacks? Are we allowed call them anti-American?

You can if you want, but you would be incorrect to do so in this case - Snowball isn't accusing the US of being behind the attacks. Actually given that he aid "wouldn't be surprised if..." he's not accusing anyone but there may be an insinuation there so let's deal with that. What he said was "people high up in US intelligence (including Poppy Bush)". That's not accusing the US of being behind the attacks - it's accusing a particular small group of people of acting in a treasonous way toward their own people. That's not anti-American. That's anti-Poppy_Bush/anti-CIA. If I said "Saddam knew all along and probably orchestrated the whole thing" it wouldn't make me anti-Iraq or anti-Iraqi, it would make me an extreme critic and accuser of the Iraqi government, not anti-Iraq. Seems like a clear difference here.

Questioning the actions of a foreign power doesn't mean that the person is anti-(that country). That's the difference between someone being extremely critical of US foreign policy and saying "I hate Americans". That's the difference. Again, it's as clear as crystal. Calling someone "anti-American (or Heaven forfend, anti-anti-American) is merely a catchphrase to deflect the attention of the listener. The question isn't "why", the question is "if".

All the criticism of the US I've seen here in discussions re Iraq has centered on a very limited number of facets of US foreign policy. Again, that's not "anti-American". It's a discussion of those small number of things. Simple.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
But there is some anti American sentiment. This is confined to a minority.

How would you define this "anti American sentiment". Can you give some examples?

Cork

It's not my job to accuse you of dropping soundbites into posts for no coherent reason

I saw the title for this tread & I tought it was a little confusing:

Anti-Americanism or How to flog a dead horse

I did not know what Anti Americanism had to do with flogging a dead horse.

Then I went on to make a few points about the contribution that the US and Irish america has made to Ireland.

Then I stated that anti American sentiment was held by a minority.

How would you define this "anti American sentiment". Can you give some examples?

I surpose the biggest example is Bush Bashing while turning a blind eye on the activities of Saddam.

The Irish voice stated last week:

Bush Bashing Is Rampant

American JOHN FAY has lived in Ireland for several years, but he finds the current anti-Americanism in the country hard to take.

“BUSH is mad,” someone told me last week. And, when an Irish person uses the word “mad” about President Bush, they don’t mean he’s angry, they mean he is out of his mind.

But I think name calling pretty desperate. Tony Blair in the UK has been called "Poodle" for months now. But name calling goes on on all sides - it adds nothing to a debate.

Can I quote Dr. Blix?
As I am being accused of soundbytes.

"Iraq appears not to have come to genuine acceptance -- not even today -- of the disarmament which was demanded of it and which it needs to carry out to win the confidence of the world and live in peace," Blix said, summing up a grim 15-page litany on Iraq's chemical and biological weapons programs

But we in Ireland are not Anti American. Europe is not Anti American:


Link


Eight European leaders are as one with President Bush.

This is the New Europe speaking with one voice, countering the widely held perception of Europe as a font of anti-Americanism. The statement read, in part, "We in Europe have a relationship with the U.S. which has stood the test of time. Thanks in large part to American bravery, generosity and farsightedness, Europe was set free from the two forms of tyranny that devastated our continent in the 20th century: Nazism and Communism. Thanks to the cooperation of Europe and the U.S., we have managed to guarantee peace and freedom on our continent. The transatlantic relationship must not become a casualty of the current Iraqi regime's persistent threat to world security."

I think Europe far being Anti American is Pro American. But I think we have got to ask ourselves who is anti UN.

Hans Blix, the chief U.N. weapons inspector, gave a broadly negative report Monday on Iraq's cooperation with two months of inspections, saying that Baghdad had failed to provide persuasive evidence that it had rid itself of weapons of mass destruction.

I think people need to focus not on the US but on Saddam. I am no apologist for this dictator - but he needs to get his act togrther.

To conclude - There is much more anti-saddam sentiment in both Ireland and Europe. I think people need not worry too much about Anti American feeling.

I surpose the biggest example is Bush Bashing while turning a blind eye on the activities of Saddam.

personally i don't associate this with anti-americanism. Its just that theres alot of people out there that don't appreciate Bush's little war, or his outlook on the world. Disliking the Bush Administration, does not make us dislike americans.

rien_du_tout

Originally posted by Victor
How would you define this "anti American sentiment". Can you give some examples?

Well I've been accused of anti-americanism and I can see how some1 can think that sometime due to the impersonal nature of the text written here compared with a normal conversation.


I do believe there is an amount of "anti-americanism", in the way that some people will presume USA is wrong/doing somethig bad for the world/ lieing all the time. Some of my friends are like this and it does border on racism to a certain extend sometime. U can do the above without being racially motivated, but when I asked my friend today what he thought about the space shuttle incident all he said was "karma". This was quite scarey 4 me.......

seán

Cork

Originally posted by klaz
Disliking the Bush Administration, does not make us dislike americans.

I agree 100% with you.

Its up to the UN to report on Saddam. I think rational debate is a good thing. I hate name calling & labels. I am as anti war as anybody but I would hate to see Saddam trying to give the UN the run around.

i'm not a big fan of this whole anti-americanism thing. Its the same as saying all palestinians are suicide bombers, and all germans are Nazi's. Its a stupid comment.

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
I surpose the biggest example is Bush Bashing while turning a blind eye on the activities of Saddam.

The Irish voice stated last week:

I've said it before and I'll say it again (for the last time - either it goes in this time or I wash my hands of it): thinking that George Bush is an idiot, incapable of running a country and having concerns about US foreign policy is not being anti-American.

And I still reckon you didn't get to read any more than the first two paragraphs of that article. There's quite a bit more there.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
Link

Eight European leaders are as one with President Bush.

quote:

---

This is the New Europe speaking with one voice, countering the widely held perception of Europe as a font of anti-Americanism. The statement read, in part, "We in Europe have a relationship with the U.S. which has stood the test of time. Thanks in large part to American bravery, generosity and farsightedness, Europe was set free from the two forms of tyranny that devastated our continent in the 20th century: Nazism and Communism. Thanks to the cooperation of Europe and the U.S., we have managed to guarantee peace and freedom on our continent. The transatlantic relationship must not become a casualty of the current Iraqi regime's persistent threat to world security."

---

Where did you get this quote? It appear differently on that website ("This is the New Europe speaking with one voice, countering the widely held perception of Europe as a font of anti-Americanism. The statement read, in part," is missing). And surely "This is the New Europe speaking with one voice" is wrong when only eight of about 50 countries sign up to it.

Originally posted by Cork
I think Europe far being Anti American is Pro American. But I think we have got to ask ourselves who is anti UN.

But i though we were anti-American.

The Saint

I'm not anti-American but I have utter contempt for their administrations both present and past. Anyone who thinks America is a rightious and good country needs to take some history lessons. They have caused much of the problems that are now in South America, the Middle East and the far East. Every president of the US should have been held accountable for war crimes and hanged going by the standards of the Nurnberg trials. They have killed more civilians than Saddam and the depleted uranium they dropped on Iraq in the Gulf war. My understanding is that prior to the war approximately 3-4 Iraqi's died per month of cancer; since the Gulf war that has shot up to 30-35. I understand that it is projected by the UN that 40-48% of the Iraqi population are expected to get some type of cancer. These are the bombs they are going to use this time round also. Anyone wishing to find out about Americas true past in conflict should research the true facts of the conflicts and not what the media says. Noam Chomsky has a very interesting points on American history and government. As I said before I am not anti-American and I actually feel sorry for a lot of Americans who do not know what their country has done or is doing in the world because they get spoonfed what the people in power want them to hear.

Loomer

My intention was for the topic of this post to be the overuse of the term anti-americanism in relation to the labbeling of anyone who opposes the potential war on Iraq. Hence the title Anti-Americanism.

The subtitle "How to flog a dead horse", an often used idiom/colloquialism in the English language, infers that the use of the title phrase is persistently used, is useless and has no impact at all. Much like flogging a dead horse is not going to yield any results.

While the majority of people responding to this post understood this it seems it went over Corks head like a low-flying aeroplane. Using such colloquialisms to illustrate a point in the future, for Cork's benefit, would be akin to flogging a dead horse.

But not wanting to disappoint, Here you go Cork

The Saint

Kinda like if you disagree with Israeli policies you are labeled anti-semetic.

Cork

My intention was for the topic of this post to be the overuse of the term anti-americanism in relation to the labbeling of anyone who opposes the potential war on Iraq. Hence the title Anti-Americanism.

I am anti war.
I am a supporter of the US.
I am a supporter of the UN.

Etiopia is bad at the moment. It is not even making the news.

I have no time for Saddam.

But I think that if the UN inspectors need more time they should get it.

I believe that Saddam needs to co-operate with the UN & to show the world that that is the case.

If Saddam does this - the UN has got to ease sanctions.

sceptre

I am anti war.
I am a supporter of the US.
I am a supporter of the UN.
Etiopia is bad at the moment. It is not even making the news.
I have no time for Saddam.
But I think that if the UN inspectors need more time they should get it.
I believe that Saddam needs to co-operate with the UN & to show the world that that is the case.
If Saddam does this - the UN has got to ease sanctions.

... none of which has any relation to the thread at hand. If you posted that in error to this thread and let the mods know where you meant to post it, they might do a favour and move it there.

This is what this thread is about:

My intention was for the topic of this post to be the overuse of the term anti-americanism in relation to the labbeling of anyone who opposes the potential war on Iraq. Hence the title Anti-Americanism.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i've noticed this alot recently, the slightest bashing of anything american has alot of people up in arms mouthing off about "anti-americanism" etc etc.

it's irritating, to say the least takes away from the validity of the original point

shotamoose

Originally posted by Cork
I am a supporter of the US

Sounds like Pro-Americanism to me. Support or condemn the policy, not the country.

Although, imho, knee-jerk support of whatever the most powerful country in the world chooses to do is more dangerous than knee-jerk opposition.

But this doesn't seem to apply to you, because

I think that if the UN inspectors need more time they should get it

Which is precisely what the US doesn't want.

But I think we have got to ask ourselves who is anti UN.

Absolutely. Who is saying that they're willing to go through the UN route providing the UN does what they want? The US and Britain. Their diplomatic strategy at the moment is to say to everyone else, "Do you want the UN to be completely irrelevent? Well, if not, you'd better support a second resolution endorsing an invasion of Iraq, cos we're going to do it anyway".

bonkey

It should also be remembered that France and Germany - those clearly "anti-American" European nations have only stated to date that they would not support or accept any military action without a further UN mandate.

Think about that. They havent said "no military action ever". All they have said is "if you want war, get a UN mandate". This has them branded as anti-American. To me, it looked more like a pro-UN stance than anything.

However, I find it reprehensible that nations standing up and saying "lets do this through the proper channels or not at all" are automatically branded anti-American. I guess pro-UN means just that then.

Now I accept that no UN mandate can occur without going through the security council, and that then leaves the question open as to whether or not France might choose to veto or just to abstain. Perhaps they're hoping that the Russians or someone else will veto so that they don't look like the bad guy.

Cork - regardless of what you might like to tell us, or what you believe, the simple fact here is that the path being taken has to be decided between the UN-officiated one, and what the US wants which is action on their own terms. By your own labels, you cannot be pro- both entities, as you cannot support military action without UN sanction, and also be against military action without UN sanction.

jc

Cork

the simple fact here is that the path being taken has to be decided between the UN-officiated one, and what the US wants which is action on their own terms.

Bonkey, after talking to alot of people on this topic & reading some pretty good postings on these boards - I believe that the US & the UK cannot take action on their own behalf aganist Iraq.

I am also finding it hard to ignore the oil arguement. After talking to a person who lived in Iraq for years - I never knew Iraq had so much oil. He informed be that this oil revenue will provide funds for international construction companies to rebuild Iraq.

I still believe the lot of the average Iraqi needs improvement & Saddam needs to co-operate more with the UN.

But the United Nations should decide on the next step. I think - diplomacy needs to be worked to the limit before considering war.

gandalf

Cork Iraqi have the 2nd largest Oil Reserves in the world with the Saudis in 1st place.

According to OPEC figures Iraq has a reserve of 112,000,000,000 Barrels of Oil or around one eight of Opecs proven crude oil reserves in 2001. The whole of North America in contrast has a reserve of 33,346,000,000 barrels. (report available in pdf from http://www.opec.org/)

This up and coming conflict is about oil and I am not Anti-American in pointing that out.

A good friend is the one thats not afraid of telling you that your making a mistake.

Gandalf.