No more smelly smoky bars

Ste k

Well its looked like it was always going to happend but this time next year you wouldnt be able to light up in any bar or resturant or even workplace in Ireland.

I have never smoked so this doesnt really bother me, well in fact it probably does because now my clothes wont stink from other people smoke which has been in their lungs.

Do you honestly think that pubs will suffer dramatically, will people go to whealans, I think it now gives the people a chance to give up who used the "I have to smoke when I'm out" excuse.

Funny thing is I dont think this was debated in the Dail, probably cause its a health and saftey issue.

Either one good decision by the government, I empathise with the smokers but the majority rules, or who ever has the biggest brown envelope in this country.

Stub it out

polarbelly

i think its great

i HAVE to give up now... whens it being enforced???

the66electric

1st of January 2004.

Smoke em if ya got em.

Ste k

And if you aint got em your gonna hit rock bottom,

or cold turkey

the66electric

Alright, go on then, just the one...

BrianD

Not before its time! Though the ban only extends to hours when food is being served and around the bar areas (as in right at the bar).

Like everything else, Irish people hate change and no doubt will debate and bitch about it for eons. Bottom line is only 30% of people smoke so why should the rest of us suffer!

What ever about pubs, restaurants should be non-smoking immediately. International experience has shown that restaurant patronage has increased as soon as a complete ban on smoking is imposed.

In California, smoking is banned in bars - though Irish bars seem to be willing to pay the fines - and It dosn't seem to have affected the pub trade. Do you honestly see us Irish forsaking our pubs because of a smoking ban?

Monkey

It should be up to the publican

Space Coyote

Aw man, now I won't be able to burn smiley faces in the back of peoples suede jackets.

o sleep

Originally posted by BrianD
International experience has shown that restaurant patronage has increased as soon as a complete ban on smoking is imposed.

In California, smoking is banned in bars - though Irish bars seem to be willing to pay the fines - and It dosn't seem to have affected the pub trade.

i love this. where do you get your figures from? how do you know it hasn't affected the pub trade? a friend of mine from san francisco (which is just as valid as statistics) says that there was some report saying that there has been a steady decrease in trade since the ban, but as they can't prove it was because of the ban (i think the state are claiming it's a coincidence, which it could very well be) nothing's being done. also, there was a coffee shop in town, on duke lane i think it was, who initiated a completely no smoking policy a while back, but changed back after a month bcos well people just stopped going. i guess if ALL coffee shops were non-smoking people wouldn't have a choice though.

i'd like to see the same initiatives implemeted against alcohol: warnings (because god knows they work), larger increase in the price etc to get people to give up drinking. it's not as dangerous as smoking, but it still kills. although i think the pub union (whatever it's called) would have something to say about that. majority rules my ass.

Ste k

Originally posted by BrianD
Not before its time! Though the ban only extends to hours when food is being served and around the bar areas (as in right at the bar).

ACtually its a total ban and not just at the bar. They said they cant physical or logistically control that. I suppose smoke floats.

I dont think the publicans can really complain that much they have had an unprecendented 41% growth in the consumption of alcohol in the last ten years, I the price of a pint has certainly risen much quicker than inflation.

I wouldnt do this country much harm if we actually stayed out of the bars so much, but do you really think that people will just because the cant smoke. Come on lads we have a sterotype to fill for all the foreigners working in the bars

Mewzel

i cant wait! ive never smoked and it always annoys me that i go home after a night out, stinking of smoke. bring it on i say.....

lamda

Well i kinda feel sorry for the smokers... I dont think there should be smoking at gigs, but i dont particularly mind it in pubs...
But god! Does this mean there will be no more smoking section in UCD???? Please God!! There is a big smoke cloud all over the damn arts building... but then where will the socialists hang out?? Oh dear...:rolleyes:

Pearl

I was in a pub in Malahide on Sunday that had a non-smoking section and it was extremely pleasant, being a rabid anti-smoker. There was a couple of families with young children and colouring books, all quite civilised and with relatively clean air.

Nothing worse than being surrounded by fag wavers at a gig, and clothes stinking the next day. Roll on Jan 04.

stimpson

To all the smokers who think its about their rights being trampled on by non smokers its not - its about protecting the health of people who work in bars and restaurants who are dying so you can get you fix.

the day of the smoker in Ireland is gone - get over it!

o sleep

i wish trinity would have a smoking section inside, but i guess it would be outlawed within a couple of months, so it doesn't really matter.

i've always found it incredibly depressing when parents bring their children into pubs for the whole day on a sunday. civilised it ain't, smoking or non-smoking.

while i agree with the new legislation (well, kind of) i do find the governments position somewhat confusing. if cigarette smoking is causing all this damage - both to smokers and non-smokers due to passive smoking, and with the huge money it apparently costs the health care system to take care of everyone who gets sick from smoking - why don't they just make smoking illegal? it's very odd. i guess with all this legislation, it's going to be alot harder for any pro-cannabis legislation to be brought in as well. oh well, california here we come ... except with crappy weather.

bobzee

I think its great that smoking will be banned from pubs...as an asthma sufferer it really effects me when I I want to go to a gig or out for a few drinks...

my only gripe about is why wait until next year?...its been talked about now for quite a while..why next bring it in in 6 months time or earlier...

of course its not really going to work..how will they police it??..I can't imagine a barman in whelans throwing somebody out because they were smoking...I mean they are not supposed to sell beer to people who are drunk but it doesn't stop them does it...

incidentally...I lived in Norway for a while..and smoking has been banned from around the bar area of pubs for years now....

shabbyroad

they'll have to learn how to police it.
let's put it this way :

there are bars in Dublin that won't let you in if you're wearing sneakers - they police that
there are bars in Dublin that won't let you in if they don't like the look of you - they police that
if you urinate on someone they'll throw you out
if you vomit on someone they'll throw you out
if you refuse to pay for your drink they'll throw you out
if you buy/sell/take drugs they'll throw you out

all they have to do is add another one to the list and I will have great pleasure in reporting the feckers to the EHB if they don't comply.

I can't wait - at last I will be able to enjoy going to a pub for a drink without spending the night on a feckin' nebuliser or having to wash every stitch of clothing. Or having to go to hospital because some gob****e with a cigarette accidentally flicked ash into my eye (Point Depot 1996) - feckin hell if I waved a lighted stick around in a pub I'd be thrown out pretty sharpish.

why we have to wait until next year is beyond me.

Tyrrial

I HATE SMOKERS, IGNORANT BASTARDS!!!!


(no effence to smokers i don't know... i was on a bus today and the selfish bastard has now made me stink of HIS damn smoke)

i think if someone damages me with there smoke i should be aloud to jab the same smoke into their eye. they hurt my body i hurt theirs.....


ohh that felt good

o sleep

they police certain things (people wearing sneakers, not liking the look of you) because (a) bouncers are high on their own power and (b) they're given orders by the pub to keep their clientel to a certain standard, presumably the standard that will pay as much money in the pub. this is why they don't police the rule that you're not allowed to serve alcohol to a drunk person. so im wondering if they'll police the non-smoking rule if they perceive this rule as being damaging to their income. as for the guy complaining about the person burning him with a cigarette butt: yes, incredibly annoying and it's happened to me too, but when my friend had the **** kicked out of him by a group of drunken knackers, well ... which would you say is worse?

i support the legislation, but only on a completely selfish level: it will help me personally give up when i decide to do so (in the summer) ... i'm just wondering where the legislation will eventually end at.

BrianD

Yep, the vintners are whinging..."How will we police it and what about the poor 80 year old oub owner will be beaten to a pulp for asking somebody to put out a ciggie? etc. etc. Pub owners fight every piece of change tooth and nail.

The fact is 70% of the population don't smoke and when these types of proactive laws are brought in the numbers of people who start smoking diminishes. Pubs and restaurants are under the impression that some how smokers are "better" patrons than non-smokers. The reality is that restaurants and pubs have increased their trade in other countries where outright bans have been imposed. Why do vintners insist on allowing smoking when the majority of their customers oppose it?

Ironically, of the three things generally available in pubs - alcohol, food and tobacco - cigarettes are the only item that you are allowed bring into a pub from outside and freely consume!

o sleep

Originally posted by BrianD
Ironically, of the three things generally available in pubs - alcohol, food and tobacco - cigarettes are the only item that you are allowed bring into a pub from outside and freely consume!

dear god, no!

em ... what's your point?

Silverfish

Hmmm, curious indeed.

So I tried this experiment last night.

It seems that if I walk up to the door of a pub with a three course meal balanced on my forearms, they'll stop me. i can only consume food that I buy inside.

If I walk up to the door of a pub carrying a pint of guinness, they'll stop me. I can only consume guinness I buy inside.

But here's the sneaky one. I put twenty marlboro lights in my pocket, walked up to the door, AND THEY LET ME STRAIGHT IN!!!
AND even better, the box I had was IDENTICAL to the ones they sold inside, so they couldn't prove I didn't buy them there. Sweet.


Anyway, I have to say, I can't smoke on buses, so i don't, and I disaprove of any ignorant idiot who does. I can't smoke in non smoking sections of restaurants, so I don't, and again disaprove of anyone who does.
I'm renting a house in Dublin, I can't smoke in it, so I don't.

But if the publicans say I can't smoke while having an overpriced pint, then feck off, I'll get a few bottles and stay home. Even my mother, an active anti-smoker, thinks the whole thing is stupid.

Its like turkeys voting for Christmas.

BrianD

O sleep, if smoke is such an integral part of the Irish pub why arn't they insisting on people buying the fags they smoke in the bar. Afterall, you don't bring in the alcohol you drink. Pubs don't make much money out of cigarette sales and 70% of people don't smoke so why fight the ban so vigorously??

DerekD Goldfish

I used to work in a pub and one of the main reasons I quit was the smoke.

Whenever I go out im always coughing and splutering.

At least I will be able to breate when ever I go out for a pint.

o sleep

i guess it has something to do with the example silverfish gave.
cigarettes are identical, pretty much no matter where you go, so enforcing a strict policy of only smoking cigarettes you bought in the pub would be a little naive. pubs would probably have to market their own cigarettes, to differentiate them from the ones sold in shops, and if they were to do so, they'd probably be a lot more expensive than normal cigarettes, so people wouldn't buy them.

but i have to agree with silverfish. if i'm still smoking when the ban comes in, the idea of an over priced pint and no smoking would probably make me switch to going to a party or just drinking at home. perhaps that's what the publicans are worried about? i guess they've done their own independant research into non-smoking pubs, i mean pub owners, despite generally being assholes, aren't stupid. i don't think this reaction against the ban is just knee-jerk. so, yeah, i'd ask the same question: why ARE the pub owners so against this when only 30% of the population smoke? maybe they know something we don't?

Tom182

OK OK...As a non smoker,I feel this is going to be one of those laws that is going to cause so much friction.....

I've got 2 valid points to back this up,so bear with me

1:You're going to have the scumbag smoker,that doesn't give a sh*t anyway,saying I'm going to have a schmoke where ever I bleedin' want.And if he's there with 5 or 6 of his mates,who's going to have the balls to tell him/her(all things being equal!!)to put it out......

2:And at the other end of the spetrum,you have the 70 year old who has his usual couple of mid-week pints,is the publican really going to tell him that he can't smoke having probably been a regular there for 30 years or more?????? I don't think so,and I don't think it's very fair.

It will be quite interesting to see how this pans out.....

Morn

They are good points, but I think number 1, from your description is going to find trouble anyway and similar people frequently get removed from pubs/club etc.
And as for number 2 - sure things'll have to change - but all he has to do is step outside for a cigarette! Is that so much to ask to stop bar-staff dying of lung cancer?

If all the pub-owners are complaining with this new legislation because they expect smokers to drink at home/at parties rather then going out to pubs does that mean that the folks who run off-licences are jumping for joy?

o sleep

i think tom182 has a point. although a smoker myself, i find it incredibly rude and ignorant when smokers light up on the bus or whenever (which is why i'd support this legislation if and when it goes through), but i know i just sit there and would never in a million years actually confront the person in question. it's just too risky. now, if i'm like that to someone who's on a bus, what would i be like to someone who's in a pub, having had seven or eight pints, i'd be even more reluctant.

Silverfish

o sleep, exactly.


And do you know whats going to happen?

some little scumbag with his mates as per Tom182's case story, IS going to light up in a pub, and I know he's just going to be let smoke, while I sit there not smoking, because those are the rules.

And before all you anti-smokers jump up and down screeching 'Oh but he'll be thrown out' and so on, you're all referring to city centre pubs with bouncers on the door and so on.

In any of my local pubs, there's just the bar staff. Most of them very young. I can't see them taking on Anto Deco Eamo and Shamo for smoking.

Same as on the buses....why do I obey the rules when I so obviously wouldn't be punished for not obeying them?

polarbelly

Originally posted by Morn
does that mean that the folks who run off-licences are jumping for joy?

yep

polarbelly

Originally posted by Silverfish
Anto Deco Eamo and

dont forget sambo and tucker....

ever notice every knacker group has them

dead right though silverfish my local's barstaff are often quite young, and cant see them tryin it on with the local scum

Silverfish

And a Natleeee and Chantalle......

So anyway, I like changes and challenges so roll on next january, I want to see how I cope.

Mick, I can't believe you posted 'yep'.

I can imagine your answers on English exam papers.

'Do you think the poet fully captured the mood? Explain'

Mick: 'Yep. I dunno'



Just Kidding....

thedrowner

ok...i havent read this properly (my computer font is fecked) so forgive me for my completely irrelvant post.

i quit smoking about 3 months ago completely (i never had a bad habit, but i just wanted to break free of it). i'd been trying to quit for 2 years, but because i work in a pub i just felt....well...im inhaling all this smoke anyway, i might as well be smoking so why not. (but at least ive finally quit)

i can;t wait until this thing comes in. in work, (ah...you all know where i work anyway so i'll stop coverin it up) they banned smoking at sit down gigs, (but not at stand up's coz there's no point, you just cant control that many people). but at the sit down gigs it was quite controllable and there's nothing i love more than walking over to some little **** with a cigarette and threatening them with a bouncer if they dont put it out. i dont think it's going to be that hard to control when it does come in, wont the barstaff be forced to tell people to tell people to put out their cigarettes? cos they'll get into trouble if not....i think. (this is all just speculation based on my experience with it in work)

o sleep

are sit down gigs where you work *really* non-smoking? ****. bcos i was at bonnie billy (the one with dave pajo and paul o'reilly) last year or something, and i thought it was non-smoking, but EVERYONE was smoking (by 'everyone' i mean a couple of people). being an incredibly polite person (and not wanting to be given out by people like drowner) i waited a while, and then thought, **** it, you must be allowed to smoke and so i did. and nobody said a word. even the waitress who came and delivered drinks to people in front of me.

regarding the bar staff: as far as i know, they will be, under terms of the legislation, by required to tell people not to smoke, but i think what people like silverfish etc are saying is that if a group of scumbags (you forgot to mention shardon and laurden) light up, a barperson would be unwilling to intervene, as the harm inflicted on him will be more immediate than legal process or even than passive smoking. or something.

sodiumlightbaby

maybe this is a double blessing for the non smokers amongst up

1. We wont have to breathe in others peoples pollution.

2. The Thieving Bstards that are the publicans might be forced to
bring down their drink prices (for a change) to encourage
people back into the pubs, instead of drinking at home !!Thats
what they're worried about !

Silverfish

As a matter of interest, how many of you anti-smokers own cars OR get taxis OR get buses? Then you contribute just as much pollution as smokers.


Carbon monoxide don't just come from cigarette smoke, y'know.

In fact, you inhale a lot more walking down a street in the city centre than you do from sitting in a pub.

Things I dislike:

Non-smokers complaining about smoke in pubs, but not emissions from buses or cars. I'm going to start insisting that non-smokers are not allowed in my car. 'Nope, sorry, you want clean air? Start a revolution. Walk'

Vegetarians who wear leather.





*DISCLAIMER *

I have a v v bad cold and I'm in a very bad mood. Any non-smokers who have been in my car, no offence is to be taken, and non smokers will be of course always welcome in my car. Just making a point, is all.......!!

shabbyroad

hope the cold gets better.....

carbon monoxide from cigarettes ?

what are you talking about ?!?!

you're not comparing like-with-like , it's two completely different things.

sodiumlightbaby

Originally posted by Silverfish

In fact, you inhale a lot more walking down a street in the city centre than you do from sitting in a pub.



That's why I live in a bubble !

BrianD

Silverfish - you raised an interesting point often raised by the smokers lobby. I think most non-smokers would also seek cleaner air and less exhaust emmisions from cars so I don't see what your point is. here. Unfortunately for the smoking lobby, it is scientifically proven that cigarette smoke - first or second hand - is far more lethal and dangerous than engine emmisions. This is compounded by the fact that smoking in a pub/restaurant/home is in a confined space with poor ventilation.

The tired old arguement of pubs investing in ventilation systems to combat smoke is still being wheeled out. Can anybody tell me a pub with one of these magical systems? Oddly, these forced air systems often contribute to the problem rather than alleviating it. It still dosn't get rid of the dangerous substances such as benzine which stays resident in soft furnishings of pubs for years.

I don't have to endure cigarette smoke on the bus, dart, the office, cinema, school so why should I have to in the pub or club or while I enjoy an overpriced meal? Smoke at home if you want to, sorry, need to!

thedrowner

Originally posted by Silverfish

Vegetarians who wear leather.

ah ha ha ha ha well im just great then! because i am true to my veggie beliefs and i dont even eat non free range eggs and all such stuff that contains them like snickers!

but IN FAIRNESS! i dont walk around with my mouth attached to the back end of cars and busses and personally, being in a crwoded bar full of smoke is worse. one of the reasons im happy its ocming in is i've seen people have to leave my job because of all the cigarette smoke was making them sick and the doctor told them they should quit. i know its going to be a bit of a pisser for everyone, but it's just fairer-people dont choose to passive smoke.

smoking is a bad thing and there are certain people out there who have accepted this and continue to smoke, and thats fair enough. i think this legislation will be a good thing, because then a lot of the people who are trying to give up and who just dont have enough will power when it comes down to it, because theyre out in a nightclub and everyone else has one, might benefit from it.

o sleep-i dont think the noon smoking thing came in that far back, i would say it came in around may of last year. and i have no problem going up to groups of people who look a bit dodgy and asking them to stop smoking. they're the people i go to first. i *love* fights, i do.

Sir

Originally posted by BrianD
The tired old arguement of pubs investing in ventilation systems to combat smoke is still being wheeled out. Can anybody tell me a pub with one of these magical systems?

The Three Sisters pub in leixlip has one it's really great coz you're eyes dont go all bloodshot and stingy after an hour in the place and you dont come home smellin like Santa Clause following a chimmney fire accident! It's the main reason myself and my friends go there rather than any of the other pubs in the area and some of them are smokers themselves


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rubadub

"It should be up to the publican"
-they are called publicans because they run PUBLIC houses, they cant open 24hrs either. in that case should it be up to the bank managers to allow smoking in their banks or not?

"i'd like to see the same initiatives implemeted against alcohol: warnings (because god knows they work), larger increase in the price etc to get people to give up drinking. it's not as dangerous as smoking, but it still kills."
-when i drink the person next to me doesnt get their liver destroyed. if you want to harm yourself its up to you and should be your right, as long as you dont harm me and leave me with no choice in the matter.

"if cigarette smoking is causing all this damage - both to smokers and non-smokers due to passive smoking, and with the huge money it apparently costs the health care system to take care of everyone who gets sick from smoking - why don't they just make smoking illegal? it's very odd."
-some high ranking international health expert predicted world war 3 would break out if tobacco were made illegal. tobacco junkies would roam the street mugging grannies just like heroin junkies (heroin is less addictive than nicotine). smuggling would be rife and they would be mixed with more crap than tobacco currently is (if thats possible!). there are a lot more tobacco addicts than heroin addicts, the problem would be huge

"i guess with all this legislation, it's going to be alot harder for any pro-cannabis legislation to be brought in as well."
-on the contrary, i think it will make people wake up and see tobacco for what it is, a drug that is smoked by many but not tolerated by society. if heroin was still legal would it be ok to smoke it in pubs with kids running about. i think all plants should be legal to grow and ingest in the comfort of your own home. if you smoke you are knowingly poisoning those around you due to the method of ingestion, i have no problem with people with nicotine patches sitting beside me in a pub, i do have a problem with people spilling beer into my mouth and therby forcing me to take drugs against my will.

"I think its great that smoking will be banned from pubs...as an asthma sufferer it really effects me when I I want to go to a gig or out for a few drinks..."
-people with obviously visible disabilities are taken care of by law (to some degree), but not people with other ailments. a person who is in a wheelchair can complain about not being able to go into a pub due to lack of wheelchair access. a person with asthma can complain about not being able to go into a pub too but will be told to feck off and live with it.

"of course its not really going to work..how will they police it??..I can't imagine a barman in whelans throwing somebody out because they were smoking...I mean they are not supposed to sell beer to people who are drunk but it doesn't stop them does it..."
-people get thrown out for smoking cannabis, whats the difference. it will be easier to spot than cannabis smokers too since nobody will be smoking anything else. BTW is it only smoking tobacco or could i still smoke, say, dry lettuce leaves with nictoine mixed in??? they can put smoke alarms around the pub to spot people quickly before everybody starts to light up.

"feckin hell if I waved a lighted stick around in a pub I'd be thrown out pretty sharpish."
- a point i have made for years!! i tried it once and did get thrown out, i burnt a pin number letter in an ashtray. they said i caused a fire hazard and i pointed out that about half the people were too they let me back in.

"i think if someone damages me with there smoke i should be aloud to jab the same smoke into their eye. they hurt my body i hurt theirs....."
-exactly. physically harming somebody should be against the law FULL STOP. if i was eating a poisonous substance in a pub and i knew some fell in somebodys drink in a pub and they got ill from it i would go to prison, WHATS THE DIFFERENCE??
why would i choose to eat a poisonous substance? probably for the same reasons people smoke poisonous substances.

"im wondering if they'll police the non-smoking rule if they perceive this rule as being damaging to their income."
-if they bring fines in it will damage their income more than the lack of smokers. bars get shut down for a week if underage drinkers are on the premises same should go for smokers.

"as for the guy complaining about the person burning him with a cigarette butt yes, incredibly annoying and it's happened to me too, but when my friend had the **** kicked out of him by a group of drunken knackers, well ... which would you say is worse?"
-i'd say the fact that the guy burning the other guy would not be prosecuted for carrying a dangerous weapon is worse. if i walked around a pub with a broken glass and accidently cut somebody what would happen?

"cigarettes are identical, pretty much no matter where you go, so enforcing a strict policy of only smoking cigarettes you bought in the pub would be a little naive. pubs would probably have to market their own cigarettes, to differentiate them from the ones sold in shops, and if they were to do so, they'd probably be a lot more expensive than normal cigarettes, so people wouldn't buy them."
-you can substitute the word "vodka" for "cigarettes" in the above quote. vodka in a pub is more expensive and many do still buy it (with high prices i notice more are starting to smuggle it in though!)

"1:You're going to have the scumbag smoker,that doesn't give a sh*t anyway,saying I'm going to have a schmoke where ever I bleedin' want.And if he's there with 5 or 6 of his mates,who's going to have the balls to tell him/her(all things being equal!!)to put it out......"
- the gardai, thats who, after the bar manager has asked them and they refused. no manager would tolerate people somking heroin in their pub. they would be breaking the law and it would be an offence NOT to report it to the gardai

"2:And at the other end of the spetrum,you have the 70 year old who has his usual couple of mid-week pints,is the publican really going to tell him that he can't smoke having probably been a regular there for 30 years or more?????? I don't think so,and I don't think it's very fair."
-bus drivers had to tell passangers of 30 years not to smoke anymore, whats the difference??

"but i know i just sit there and would never in a million years actually confront the person in question. it's just too risky. now, if i'm like that to someone who's on a bus, what would i be like to someone who's in a pub, having had seven or eight pints, i'd be even more reluctant."
-are you a member of the gardai? if not, then it is not your job to enforce the law, in fact it will get you in trouble in many instances. the gardai do not support vigilantes. if on a bus go and tell the driver to stop and call the gardai, i think they have to. i was stuck on a bus in dun loaighaire for 30mins waiting for them to arrive.

"2. The Thieving Bstards that are the publicans might be forced to
bring down their drink prices (for a change) to encourage
people back into the pubs, instead of drinking at home !!Thats
what they're worried about !"
-the price will probably go up if there does end up being less customers. then we'll see boycotts and it will drop.

"As a matter of interest, how many of you anti-smokers own cars OR get taxis OR get buses? Then you contribute just as much pollution as smokers."
-how many car owners hook a hose up to their exhaust and stick it in the window of their local. it should be my right as a nonsmoker to get my nightly pollution in the air, i reckon only half an hour would do it for my share compared to a smoker smoking all night. this is about the work place, welders have to have exhaust hoods which are checked by external bodies to see they are up to standard.

"In fact, you inhale a lot more walking down a street in the city centre than you do from sitting in a pub."
-bull****. depends on what pub and what street.

"Non-smokers complaining about smoke in pubs, but not emissions from buses or cars. I'm going to start insisting that non-smokers are not allowed in my car. 'Nope, sorry, you want clean air? Start a revolution. Walk'"
-if they did complain you could then say they dont complain about people using electricity which usually has emmissions involved in its production. oh sorry i forgot 2 wrongs DO make a right in your world.

"The tired old arguement of pubs investing in ventilation systems to combat smoke is still being wheeled out. Can anybody tell me a pub with one of these magical systems? Oddly, these forced air systems often contribute to the problem rather than alleviating it. It still dosn't get rid of the dangerous substances such as benzine which stays resident in soft furnishings of pubs for years."
-the get rid of actual visible smoke but not the more dangerous chemicals. most are just recirculating the air and feel there is no need for fresh air because it appears clean and it saves on heating bills. so yes indeed it can do more harm, they do not work.

now after all that i think i'll have a smoke

Ste k

So I was wondering what is your point rubadub.

Or are you just pointing out the in-accuracies of people's belief systems.

There are alot of mis-understandings with relation to whats more dangerous than smoke, or carbon monoixde from cars. I somehow think no goverenment would get elected again if they banned cars on public roads.

rubadub

"So I was wondering what is your point rubadub.
Or are you just pointing out the in-accuracies of people's belief systems"

i'm just trying to make people think again about what they say.
why is "this" ok when "this" is not when they appear to be the same. why is one toxic gas in the workplace acceptable and others arent

think of the issue fundamentally and not what tradition and society has made acceptable and what is not. if tobacco was discovered only yesterday would people be smoking it in pubs? if paracetomol was discovered yesterday it wouldnt get past the current criteria for a drug to be made legal.
i like to use anaolgies. many dont see tobacco and alcohol as drugs at all. i remember in work a guy complaining about fumes from a paint can, he had a cigarette in his mouth at the time, is he really concerned about his health or just ignorant.

fundamentally people are getting away with murdering other people. just stand back and look at it.

"There are alot of mis-understandings with relation to whats more dangerous than smoke, or carbon monoixde from cars. I somehow think no goverenment would get elected again if they banned cars on public roads."

i pointed out that fact, one guy said it is more dangerous to breath in air on the street thatn in a pub. either could be worse.

this whole thread is meant to be about smoking. one guy was moaning that antismokers arent moaning about car fumes. if they were moaning he would mention something else they werent moaning about. its like saying if you complain you must complain against everything bad in the world or nothing at all

are the government who banned smoking going to be elected again?

DerekD Goldfish

One of the reasons the goverment probably doesnt ban smoking is that in a sick way it saves them money.

Because smokers die younger they recive less pension payments etc. A study done in (Chezh Republic I think) stated that the extra money spent on health is outweighted by the saving in welfare payments.

I am not saying im in favour of smoking but people should have the right to do it if they want. Just not near me.

I feel the same way about hash I dont smoke it but if people want to smoke it in their own homes they should be allowed to.

People should have the right to be stupid.

rubadub

the was a program on tg4 (i think) a while back about better health care and pensions. spain was facing the biggest problem. the pensionable age was set at 65 (or whatever in is in spain). this was set back in the 1950's when life expectancy was lower and health in general was lower so a 65 year old really was pretty unable to work. now they have more old people than young. people arent having as many kids due to culture and lifestyle. many people over 65 are well able to work but choose to go on the pension instead, they are living well into their 90's on good pensions. the small number of younger people will have to pay massive taxes to pay for the huge number of pensions. they live longer after reaching 65 so the number of pensionable years paid to them is much more than in the 1950s.
ireland is the opposite at the moment, more young than old. but they reckon we will be in the same boat in 50years.

the politicians in the 50's set up what is like a pyramid scheme, they will all be dead by the time it collapses so they dont give a damn.

o sleep

Originally posted by rubadub
"i'd like to see the same initiatives implemeted against alcohol: warnings (because god knows they work), larger increase in the price etc to get people to give up drinking. it's not as dangerous as smoking, but it still kills."
-when i drink the person next to me doesnt get their liver destroyed. if you want to harm yourself its up to you and should be your right, as long as you dont harm me and leave me with no choice in the matter. not really my point, but alcoholism does harm other people. not as subtle as cigarette smoke, but it does lead to loss of life.

"if cigarette smoking is causing all this damage - both to smokers and non-smokers due to passive smoking, and with the huge money it apparently costs the health care system to take care of everyone who gets sick from smoking - why don't they just make smoking illegal? it's very odd."
-some high ranking international health expert predicted world war 3 would break out if tobacco were made illegal. tobacco junkies would roam the street mugging grannies just like heroin junkies (heroin is less addictive than nicotine). smuggling would be rife and they would be mixed with more crap than tobacco currently is (if thats possible!). there are a lot more tobacco addicts than heroin addicts, the problem would be huge i don't think world war 3 would break out if smoking was banned in Ireland (now, in america it might be a different story)

"im wondering if they'll police the non-smoking rule if they perceive this rule as being damaging to their income."
-if they bring fines in it will damage their income more than the lack of smokers. bars get shut down for a week if underage drinkers are on the premises same should go for smokers.


"but i know i just sit there and would never in a million years actually confront the person in question. it's just too risky. now, if i'm like that to someone who's on a bus, what would i be like to someone who's in a pub, having had seven or eight pints, i'd be even more reluctant."
-are you a member of the gardai? if not, then it is not your job to enforce the law, in fact it will get you in trouble in many instances. the gardai do not support vigilantes. if on a bus go and tell the driver to stop and call the gardai, i think they have to. i was stuck on a bus in dun loaighaire for 30mins waiting for them to arrive. so you complain to the bus driver and usually he won't pay any attention. but if you insist, and he doesn't want to confront these people either (as his safety may be in danger) he rings the police, and like you say, you wait for 30 minutes (or more) for the police to arrive. this would make me even more unlikely to complain. also: prosecutions are rarely brought to court, most of the time they're given warnings or slaps on the wrist.

"2. The Thieving Bstards that are the publicans might be forced to
bring down their drink prices (for a change) to encourage
people back into the pubs, instead of drinking at home !!Thats
what they're worried about !"
-the price will probably go up if there does end up being less customers. then we'll see boycotts and it will drop. although we invented boycotting, we're incredibly bad at it. the price of drinks in pubs (in dublin anyway) has been skyrocketing over the last couple of years, and i've never heard of anyone boycotting a pub. remember in greece, when 80% of people obeyed a boycott against rising prices due to the Euro? we had one here, too. anyone here about it? no, didn't think so. so i don't think the boycott will happen.

-how many car owners hook a hose up to their exhaust and stick it in the window of their local. it should be my right as a nonsmoker to get my nightly pollution in the air, i reckon only half an hour would do it for my share compared to a smoker smoking all night. this is about the work place, welders have to have exhaust hoods which are checked by external bodies to see they are up to standard. yes, few car owners (if any) hook their exhaust pipes to their locals. yet i think the point being made is that there tends not to be the same level of protest against the poisonous gases coming out of cars. I understand this is a thread about smoking in bars, but if non-smokers are going to be hypocritical about smoking and then get in their car and drive home, well i think it's a fair point.

"In fact, you inhale a lot more walking down a street in the city centre than you do from sitting in a pub."
-bull****. depends on what pub and what street. if it depends on what street and what pub, it's not bull**** then.

now after all that i think i'll have a smoke [/B] me too.

rubadub

"i'd like to see the same initiatives implemeted against alcohol: warnings (because god knows they work), larger increase in the price etc to get people to give up drinking. it's not as dangerous as smoking, but it still kills."
-when i drink the person next to me doesnt get their liver destroyed. if you want to harm yourself its up to you and should be your right, as long as you dont harm me and leave me with no choice in the matter. not really my point, but alcoholism does harm other people. not as subtle as cigarette smoke, but it does lead to loss of life.


i agree. there should be more warnings about alcohol (and coffee, sugar, OTC medicines). my point is that i have no problem with people taking any drugs be it crack cocaine or tea, but i do have a problem if there method of ingestion causes me physical harm.



"but i know i just sit there and would never in a million years actually confront the person in question. it's just too risky. now, if i'm like that to someone who's on a bus, what would i be like to someone who's in a pub, having had seven or eight pints, i'd be even more reluctant."
-are you a member of the gardai? if not, then it is not your job to enforce the law, in fact it will get you in trouble in many instances. the gardai do not support vigilantes. if on a bus go and tell the driver to stop and call the gardai, i think they have to. i was stuck on a bus in dun loaighaire for 30mins waiting for them to arrive. so you complain to the bus driver and usually he won't pay any attention. but if you insist, and he doesn't want to confront these people either (as his safety may be in danger) he rings the police, and like you say, you wait for 30 minutes (or more) for the police to arrive. this would make me even more unlikely to complain. also: prosecutions are rarely brought to court, most of the time they're given warnings or slaps on the wrist.


yep its a disgrace. the law is not serious about the offence being committed due to its acceptance by society. i still see under 18s being served cigarettes all the time. but if a kid is found smoking cannabis it makes headline news, if they caught the dealer selling to kids god help him, but the shopkeeper selling smokes and beer gets a nasty telling off- crazy. if you told the bus driver that theres a guy with a can of toxic gas spraying it about upstairs they would pay attention, but toxic smoke "sure its only smoke". ahhh ignorance is bliss...



"2. The Thieving Bstards that are the publicans might be forced to
bring down their drink prices (for a change) to encourage
people back into the pubs, instead of drinking at home !!Thats
what they're worried about !"
-the price will probably go up if there does end up being less customers. then we'll see boycotts and it will drop. although we invented boycotting, we're incredibly bad at it. the price of drinks in pubs (in dublin anyway) has been skyrocketing over the last couple of years, and i've never heard of anyone boycotting a pub. remember in greece, when 80% of people obeyed a boycott against rising prices due to the Euro? we had one here, too. anyone here about it? no, didn't think so. so i don't think the boycott will happen.

i admit the term boycott is too strong (it was in my head from reading another post). i do think less people will go to pubs. prices will increase due to this leading to even less going. smokers will stay in drinking at home. i see it already happening among people i know. people get tanked up at home these days and then go to the pub later on to save spending 50 euro just for a few drinks. 10 jameson and coke in the pub/club is up to 70 euro, at home it is 14 euro 1/5th the price. but smokers will put off going to the pub even longer saying "we'll have a few more here at home and then head to the pub, sure we cant smoke in there anyway"



-how many car owners hook a hose up to their exhaust and stick it in the window of their local. it should be my right as a nonsmoker to get my nightly pollution in the air, i reckon only half an hour would do it for my share compared to a smoker smoking all night. this is about the work place, welders have to have exhaust hoods which are checked by external bodies to see they are up to standard. yes, few car owners (if any) hook their exhaust pipes to their locals. yet i think the point being made is that there tends not to be the same level of protest against the poisonous gases coming out of cars. I understand this is a thread about smoking in bars, but if non-smokers are going to be hypocritical about smoking and then get in their car and drive home, well i think it's a fair point.

my point is that i dont think they are hypocritical. cars serve a valid purpose. some would say smokers find smokes enjoyable, i would reason that rather they find not having cigarettes unenjoyable. what lenghts should nonsmokers go to to get clean air. electricity is normally produced with toxic gases as a by product. should antismokers refuse to use electricity and anything that has been produced which used electricity? where do you draw the line? the law is about smoking in the WORKPLACE, i'm sure if a motor mechanic complained about car exhaust damaging his health in a garage something would be done.
what i really find hypocritical is politicians on talk show like questions and answers talking about peoples civil rights being taken, yet many drugs are illegal, why are they illegal? because the same politicians want it so.
i'll start campaigning against car emmissions when the pro-smokers campaign to legalise all plant life on this planet.

i myself had nictoine running through my veins since i was a baby letting it addiction slowly take hold. when i was 17 and frequented pubs and i got even more nicotine in my system, against my will. i was smoking a few every night passively and when at home drinking found the urge to smoke. the combined addiction and lowered will power due to booze led me to take up smoking. i didnt smoke when sober, they sickened me during the day. i could go for weeks without a smoke since i didnt like the taste and wasnt drinking. i finally kicked the addiction, but i dont think i would have started if smoking was banned from pubs. id rather have been hooked on heroin (if it was legal at the time) at least it gives a good high and is less addictive.



"In fact, you inhale a lot more walking down a street in the city centre than you do from sitting in a pub."
-bull****. depends on what pub and what street. if it depends on what street and what pub, it's not bull**** then.

it is a useless statement aka bull****. others include. a piece of string is longer than a piece of wire. water is more dangerous than alcohol. asprin is more dangerous than heroin.
all these statement may be true or false so whats the point in making them?

o sleep

Originally posted by rubadub
id rather have been hooked on heroin (if it was legal at the time) at least it gives a good high and is less addictive.

it is a useless statement aka bull****. others include. a piece of string is longer than a piece of wire. water is more dangerous than alcohol. asprin is more dangerous than heroin.
all these statement may be true or false so whats the point in making them?

another example you could've given here would be saying you'd rather be on heroin than addicted to smoking. which i seriously doubt you would be. heroin might be a nice high, but it's more immediately lethal than cigarette smoking, and coming off it induces more serious after-effects than coming off smoking. when people say that smoking is more addictive than heroin (and from what i've read, this is true) they're also including different categories that aren't applicable to heroin use: habit, for example, amongst other things.

rubadub

thats why i was saying "if it was still legal". street heroin is heroin and god knows what else. people die from the impurities. the odd time they do actually die from actual heroin overdoses is when it is too pure. if it was legally avaliable you would know it is pure and what dose to take. a medium sized cigar contains a lethal dose of nicotine. many doctors are hooked on opiates/heroin and lead successful lives, they can get the good stuff, which causes few side effects. a programme on bbc2 a while back showed addicts who got pure heroin and they led normal lives, they werent shivering wrecks. if tobacco was illegal we would have tobacco junkies dying from impure tobacco too

i wouldnt like to be hooked on either nicotine or heroin. but if i was held at gunpoint and force to take a dose of pharmaceutically pure heroin or nicotine i would pick the heroin thanks very much.

the comedown off heroin is exaggerated in the press and media to scare people (which i think is a good thing) just like the dangers of most drugs are exaggerated. i think it was william burroughs who described it as like having the flu for a week. nicotine withdrawl is no walk in the park either. it is easier to go cold turkey from heroin, you wont have it pumped into your system everyday

Silverfish

i pointed out that fact, one guy said it is more dangerous to breath in air on the street thatn in a pub. either could be worse.

this whole thread is meant to be about smoking. one guy was moaning that antismokers arent moaning about car fumes. if they were moaning he would mention something else they werent moaning about. its like saying if you complain you must complain against everything bad in the world or nothing at all

No, In fact, I was moaning about people who complain about smoking then ask me (female) for a lift in my car.

Then when in my car, they frequently ask me (female) not to smoke.

Mindless of the fact that my car is emitting more carbon monoxide than my cigarette.

carbon monoxide from cigarettes ?what are you talking about ?!?!

Cigarettes contain carbon monoxide.

E.G the pack I am smoking right now:

Tar: 6mg
Nicotine: 0.5mg
Carbon Monoxide: 7mg

Now appearing on a pack near you.


And I don't give a sh*t.

I could be hit by a foul, polluting, dangerous-for-my-health 77A bus tomorrow.