Alternative To US Landings at Shannon

daveirl

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Wook

what makes you think we as europe need them more then they need us ? can imagine how big a market europe is ?

daveirl

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Wook

and once again..they need us...
what they going to do ? sell to usa residence alone ? i dont think so. You really have to move away from the shadow of Usa and think bigger.

PH01

"Gawd bless ah-mer-ree-ca, my home sweet home..."

Originally posted by Wook
and once again..they need us...
what they going to do ? sell to usa residence alone ? i dont think so. You really have to move away from the shadow of Usa and think bigger.

hmmm, I don't think so, they could move all their plants gradually over to the new entrant countries, and where would we be then?

Is there no gratefullness left anymore??
I sometimes wonder what,the world would be like if all unsavoury despots and groups like Al'Quaeda were left unchecked.

Probably not a very nice place, anyhow compared to what we are used to...
51% of the population, check the lining in your burka's:eek:
mm

theres the whole buddy system. If europe turened away from america at this moment, america might turn away from europe at a later stage. A favour for a favour. Remember people have long memories when they're twarted in something

Vuk

Well I believe it can be dealt with a minimum of offence, it's not just a matter of telling the US to get the feck out of Shannon, if our constitution is strong enough to warrant the barring of movement of troops through our nation, the Irish government can explain to it's US counterparts that constitutionally we cannot allow this.
As a fellow democratic nation they would have no right to begrudge us this.
It would also not be a huge strategic loss to the US to loose Shannon, what's wrong with airports and bases in the UK ?
But it all really boils down to the attitude of our government. Statements like "There's no such thing as true neutrality" from our Minister for Defence, show's how much the government are striving to uphold our constitution.

Thing is though, Irelands governments have always been pushovers. they'll always fold if america pushes something. The only way ireland would deny america shannon, was if nato/ the eu, asked them not to.

Alternatively they could invite saddam to land planes there, and keep up our farce of neutrality.

It does boil down to the favour thing.
Regardless of how it is said or done a refusal to allow a friendly state like the U.S to land at Shannon would have implications.

Imagine, the IDA trying to encourage more U.S investment here, and we wouldn't allow a simple thing like re-fueling at Shannon...
Some of the new E.U entrant countries are already NATO members and looked upon favourably by U.S eyes for being so.
If and when the U.S economy turns around again, I'd imagine, U.S Congessmen and women would remember our sillyness and be leading the delegations looking for business opportunities in Eastern Europe instead of here.

I do not see what the fuss is about.

To be honest, I'll use that phrase again..." heads down like Larne Catholics..." on this one and save your protests for something else. The Irish Government is doing that,in the certain knowledge that , it is in this countries best interests to take the current course of action.

Oh yes and theres the green cards, how many times have the Irish, got favourable status there??
Not to mention the thousands of students who have had J1 visa's.
The U.S ( whether one agrees with their tactics or not ) has decided that , their actions in relation to Sadam are in the United States best interests...and by and large, that suits our economic interests aswell.
Unless of course we want to go back to Eighties, high taxes,unemployment, Emmigration(to god knows where as the U.S wouldn't let too many in... post our Shannon sillyness) etc etc...
No thanks.
mm

Batfink

Don't kid yourself , American companies are not over here because they want to help us out, they are here because it is profitable for them to set up here.

Wook was right, Think bigger and look forward, what is stopping Irish companies setting up with help from the Irish gov to do the exact same thing as American companies are doing over here and making a profit.

US Multinationals in Ireland are like whores
First they f*ck you
second they take your money
third they leave

I have no problem with the states using shannon but I do have a problem with anyone who thinks we need the states.:D

Vuk

Aye, as Batfink said, the US companies aren't here because of goodwill it is just economically viable and I'm sure as the east European countries join the Euro-zone, they will be a target for new and re-located US companies, regardless of how we deal with the Shannon Issue.

Meh

Originally posted by Batfink
Wook was right, Think bigger and look forward, what is stopping Irish companies setting up with help from the Irish gov to do the exact same thing as American companies are doing over here and making a profit.

The fact that the Irish companies don't have the necessary capital, intellectual property or research ability. It cost Intel $2 billion to build their new fab in Leixlip. There is no Irish company that would be even remotely able to afford such an investment.

US Multinationals in Ireland are like whores
First they f*ck you
second they take your money
third they leave

On the contrary, US multinationals have brought much more money into this country (salaries, corporation tax, suppliers...) than they have taken in grants.

Wook

Intel has only became so big and powerful with a couple of billion to back them up partially because of a European customer base.

Companies bring money in , but that's not to say they do this because they want to be friendly. Do you really think your economic boom would have happened if your government didn't help with cheap corporate taxes and other benefits ?
And how long do you think the same companies are going to stay here if the climate of favours change ? This is all too natural and is to be expected from multinationals.

We as Europeans don't own a thing to America..we have paid our dues with the purchase of almost everything American , look around the office and your house and start counting the American products you have..you be amazed.

Somebody mentioned that as a neutral country we should also allow the People from Iraq to land planes here ...fair point wouldn't you say ?

I don't care where they land because they will find a way to get there. all I am trying to say is that we do not have to do this because of sympathy..for they have little for us..see Kyoto, see human rights, see the problems they have caused and we had to help clean up..and so on...

Originally posted by Meh
The fact that the Irish companies don't have the necessary capital, intellectual property or research ability. It cost Intel $2 billion to build their new fab in Leixlip. There is no Irish company that would be even remotely able to afford such an investment. On the contrary, US multinationals have brought much more money into this country (salaries, corporation tax, suppliers...) than they have taken in grants.

Thanks Meh, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Anyone that thinks, that this country hasn't benefited from the downstream effects of the presence of U.S multi nationals here is deluding themselves....
Indeed, those companies could have set up in Scotland,were it not for better grants here yes, but also to a large extent lobbying of Irish American congressmen...the very people whose troops are filing through Shannon.

Somebody mentioned that as a neutral country we should also allow the People from Iraq to land planes here ...fair point wouldn't you say ?

No thats not a fair point at all...
We may be non alligned, but if it was a fight for democracy, Vs Sadams Despot regime...the Irish people would be shouting for Sadam???
Doubt it!
mm

DiscoStu

Morality For Sale

25% off for a limited time only.

I don't see the irish people shouting for the end of saddam's empire at the moment. Actually i don't see them doing much of anything. The shannon landings aren't really affecting the irish people as a whole, all that much except for a few minority groups. So it stands to reason if Saddam was allowed to land in ireland with his forces, then likewise the people wouldn't care all that much. Either way we're not directly threatened.

This thread, and the Irish Neutrality thread are quite similiar in one respect. The allowance of american troop/transport planes to land here, makes the claim to irish neutrality a farce, since the irish government are helping one country in its military offensive against another country. (small help i know, but help nonetheless).

Victor

Originally posted by daveirl
DELL, Intel, Boston Scientific, Motorola I could go on. American companies employ hundred's of thousands of people here. Don't kid yourself we need them.

So we just prostitute ourselves to the highest bidder?

If we are going to be prostitutes, can we at least admit it to oursleves? WEll at least Mr. Cowen could admit it.

Typedef

Originally posted by Wook
and once again..they need us...
what they going to do ? sell to usa residence alone ? i dont think so. You really have to move away from the shadow of Usa and think bigger.

For your information Wook that is 'exactly' what Gateway EMEA (Europe Middle East & Africa) did. Why? Well European sales were down some 40% and North American sales were down some 35%, so a big wig in the US took a decision to kill Gateway EMEA to save Gateway North America.

So yes, if push comes to shove the Americans will look out for themselves and do business with themselves alone, if need be.

Dell consumed Gateway's former market incidentally.

Morality for sale:D
Not really,just a way of life really.

Why don't the people of Iraq band together and get rid of Sadam?
Are they afraid of him or something??

Oh I forgot he got 100% of a democratic vote recently...

At least we can, grumble about, these things...

mm

dathi1

I think it requires a balance...

1.
No fly overs and US troops landing at Shannon: Probably a treat to some investment but companies rely more on financial objectives than politics....ie China investment etc.

2.
Let them land and fly through: Investment is 100% assured instead of 99%.. Al Quida and Co see Ireland as just another future target and pencil it in on its 5th column attacks in 2005.

I go for No1.

Meh

Originally posted by dathi1
2.Let them land and fly through: Investment is 100% assured instead of 99%.. Al Quida and Co see Ireland as just another future target and pencil it in on its 5th column attacks in 2005.

So you advocate that Irish foreign policy be based on appeasement, isolationism and cowardice? At least you're honest about it...

Also, I should remind you that we are already a target -- several Irish citizens died on Sept. 11th.

Originally posted by dathi1
Probably a treat to some investment but companies rely more on financial objectives than politics....ie China investment etc.

*Cough*
China is a potential market to U.S companies of how many billion people???
Of course the U.S are interested in commercial gain there.

We are a market of how many??
U.S companies could if they wanted serve European markets, from how many E.U Nato member countries What happens again when you bite the hand that feeds you??

U.S companies do listen to their congressmen.

The same congressmen that by and large have a friendly view of Ireland at present.
mm

Cork

Why would the Irish want to give dfacto support to Saddam by not allowing US military personnel to land at Shannon?

Shannon is under utilised anyway. Look at how few planes use this airport.

I think Irish opposition to the use of Shannon by the US is pretty sad.

I think that the people of Iraq are living in fear. Are they surposed to wait until Saddam passes away?

Saddam used chemical weapons on his own people.

The whole Shannon saga has turned into a bandwagon.

A band wagon made up from people with genuine concerns, those who are Anti American & those who are pinko liberals.

The government have made the decision to use Shannon. I think all the people who are opposed to this decision can jump up & down as much as they like but the decision has been made.

To be honest, I'd have my doubts as to how many Irish people, dissagree with the use of Shannon by the U.S
Maybe it's the company I mix in but most are supportive.

Thankfully, as in the U.S we have the right to object to whatever we like,but to my mind, I'd rather be , handing out soup and blankets to the homeless in this country, than camping out in Shannon, it would be a better use of my spare time.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind going out foreign, maybe even to Iraq and helping out the homeless there or the sick in their badly starved hospitals.

I sometimes wonder at the marvels/complexities of the human race...
There we have a country with a huge oil reserve capable of giving it's people, a fair lifestyle, if only they got rid of Sadam, became a democracy, without comprimising their Islamic beliefs( Turkey style, imperfect but improving as that country is...) and sold their oil on the open market.
Instead it is ruled by a despot, who thinks we are all infidels, because we don't agree with his approach to Ruling, and whose idea of democracy involves doing away with the opposition, even if it's a blood relative:eek:
This mad despot, probably would support anyone who is an enemy of the great infidel, ie Al Q'ueda if left unchecked.

mm

DiscoStu

who thinks we are all infidels

i think youve been listening to the propaganda that says iraq was responsible for 9/11. before 1991 iraq was a close ally of the US and still is a very non-secular islamic country. the idea that it is iraq preaching the west are the infedels is about as absurd as the notion that the coming war against iraq is for the good of the oppressed iraqi people and not the benefit of US oil companies.

Andor

Why would the Irish want to give dfacto support to Saddam by not allowing US military personnel to land at Shannon?

It has nothing at all to do with Saddam, it has everything to do with OUR constitution on such matters.

Shannon is under utilised anyway. Look at how few planes use this airport.

Jesus, yea...What a waste of an Airport, why dont we give it to those guys over there who could possibly be ignoring our democratic rights.

I think Irish opposition to the use of Shannon by the US is pretty sad.

your saying its pretty sad for us to defend our constitution? Its quite possible that these people are smuggling weapons through our supposedly neutral Country.

I think that the people of Iraq are living in fear. Are they surposed to wait until Saddam passes away?

You apparently think alot, but the results of your ponderings never seems to churn any valid material to back it up? No offense.

Saddam used chemical weapons on his own people.

I agree that Saddam is a nutcase, but i dont see how the fight against him - or any of the other nutcases out there for that matter - should be brought upon us, a neutral country.

The whole Shannon saga has turned into a bandwagon.


A band wagon made up from people with genuine concerns, those who are Anti American & those who are pinko liberals.

Well 'git on board, yeehaw, etc.

I've seen the term Pinko Liberal' used before, i think it was on some episode of the simpsons where the stereotyped american army-nutcase used it as a derogatory remark? ooh, i bet theres irony in there somewhere!:).

The government have made the decision to use Shannon. I think all the people who are opposed to this decision can jump up & down as much as they like but the decision has been made.

The decision has been made? Emm, the Government represent the People (thats us) if we have a problem with this then if we complain and bitch enough it must be investigated.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
dfacto

The Cork (city, not the boards.ie member) speeling of "de facto"

Originally posted by Cork
The government have made the decision to use Shannon.

Well actually a ministerial decision needs to be made for each and every transit. By law, no blanket permission can be given (which really annoyed the Canadians).

Originally posted by DiscoStu
i think youve been listening to the propaganda that says iraq was responsible for 9/11. before 1991 iraq was a close ally of the US and still is a very non-secular islamic country. the idea that it is iraq preaching the west are the infedels is about as absurd as the notion that the coming war against iraq is for the good of the oppressed iraqi people and not the benefit of US oil companies.

My thoughts on this are expressed in the other thread on the subject.
But in summary, he does think the U.S is the great infidel now, and indeed his speech last night, to his loyal people on Iraqi TV gave that view of America, several times.
Yes for a long time after the Iranian revolution, the U.S supported Iraq, but this was in response to a perceived threat from Iran who after the overthrow of the Shah were very anti U.S and propegated fundamentalism throughtout the region.
It was understandable in my view that they would support, a country that was at war with Iran, but rather ironic , that the consequences of this have to be dealt with now.
The leader, they were supporting became a bigger threat than the evil, they thought this support was going to help defeat.
mm

Originally posted by Victor
Well actually a ministerial decision needs to be made for each and every transit. By law, no blanket permission can be given (which really annoyed the Canadians).

Wow!
Bet the paper work on that must be piling up!
I wonder would it be available under an FOI request, or would be governed, by a 30 year rule or summat?
You come with me Victor and we'll ask for it, I'll supply the wheelbarrow:D
mm

Victor

Originally posted by Man
I wonder would it be available under an FOI request, or would be governed, by a 30 year rule or summat?

Probably 30 year rule. Definitely not covered by FOIA.

Aww shucks...will we still be alive?
I'll hold onto the wheelbarrow, keep it from rusting and all that:p

Actually it would be interesting to be around in 30 years to see what communication is to-ing and fro-ing between Washington and dublin at the moment, regarding shannon and I suppose in relation to our position on the security council etc.
mm

Cork

I agree that Saddam is a nutcase, but i dont see how the fight against him - or any of the other nutcases out there for that matter - should be brought upon us, a neutral country.

Should we bury our hand in the sand with regard to the plight of the Iraqis?

Devalera ferryied airmen across the boarder when we were neytral during WW2.

While Swiss bank took German deposits.


I think we have international obligations. We should never turn our back on those living in fear.

gandalf

Cork you never answered this in another thread so I'll ask you here again.

Are you a law abiding person, do you respect the laws of other countries ?

Well the US authorities are ignoring Irish laws and basically wiping their feet in our sovereignty by transporting weapons without clearance required by our Constitution in Commercial Airplanes (and yes that even include personal arms!).

Even your old mate "Biffo" Cowen has admitted that they are carrying personal weapons !!! and yet he does nothing about this clear violation of our sovereignty (well that doesn't surprise me this is the party that has signed our sovereignty down the swannie with Nice last year!).

So do you think its right that the US authorities ignore Irish law. How many other countries laws and how many other resolutions do they ignore when it doesn't match up to their goals and ambitions. Well we already know all about Isreal.

Gandalf.

gandalf

Originally posted by Cork
Should we bury our hand in the sand with regard to the plight of the Iraqis?

No but we shouldn't send more of them to their graves because a American President & Administration with Revenge and Avarice in their hearts has decided to attack them.

Devalera ferryied airmen across the boarder when we were neytral during WW2.

While Swiss bank took German deposits.

A different time and a different conflict. But I do love the way all the conservative Drum Beaters always try and pair up the latest little enemy with Hitler.

I think we have international obligations. We should never turn our back on those living in fear.

We do its called being a active member of the United Nations and supporting all their resolutions and not just the ones that meet your foreign policy ambitions !!!

Gandalf.

Cork

Are you a law abiding person, do you respect the laws of other countries ?

Yes, I do - If the country is democratic.
I don't have much time for either royal families or dictators.

Well the US authorities are ignoring Irish laws and basically wiping their feet in our sovereignty by transporting weapons without clearance required by our Constitution in Commercial Airplanes

If this is the case - why cannot both members of the Green or Labour party challange the government in the Dail or take legal action?

There is no war declared on Iraq. Yet are we as a nation to not allow our airports to be used by military personnel?

Would this not be a poke in the eye for Irish americans and giving defacto support to a dictator who uses chemical weapons on his own people.

the party that has signed our sovereignty down the swannie with Nice last year!).

I was aganist the NICE treaty.

daveirl

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Cork

What I want to ask and this is a general question not just specific to this thread if so many people hate America so much why don't they just boycott it. Don't buy anything american. Watch any american TV shows etc.

We are not Anti American as a country. But when you turn on the radio you often hear anti american sentiment.

If you do you are indirectly funding the war on terror and since you have such a problem with it you should take this action.

No, These anti Americans have the privilidge of living in Ireland and not under a dictator like Saddam.

It is so easy for them to get media coverage for their rantings - a freedom that they would not get in Iraq.

Vuk

Originally posted by Cork
There is no war declared on Iraq.

Shannon has already been used to support previous wars and their current movement is a strategic placement in preparation of another.
If you'd really like to nit-pick the details of neutrality, lets remember that these landings at Shannon are already part of a war, namely Bush's "War on Terrorism", whose details are not for this thread.

Originally posted by Cork
These anti Americans have the privilidge of living in Ireland

I was at the anti-war rally in Shannon today and I did not see any anti-American sentiment, in fact there were many Americans present to support our campaign.
Our issue is not with American people but with their President and his war machine. Our argument and this thread is also about the use of Shannon Airport being part of any war effort

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

imp

Actually if we didn't let them use Shannon they'd simply use in-flight refuelling from a supply plane that would be based in Britain. Its just more convenient and a little safer to use a real airport.

}:>

daveirl

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sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
No, These anti Americans have the privilidge of living in Ireland and not under a dictator like Saddam.

If these anti-Americans as you insist on calling them (despite people telling you that you haven't a clue) are Irish citizens (and pretty much all of them are)they have the right to live in Ireland. You may say they're lucky people compared to other people in (pick a country) but it's not a privilege - it's a right.

It's a right we gave ourselves in the Constitution we enacted - a constitution that contains a list of rules constraining the State and conferring rights that can't be taken away from people. The two are inseparable.

Vuk

Originally posted by daveirl
And his issue is not with the Iraqi people but with their evil, cruel, dictator

While I will agree with your description of Saddam Hussein,as I'm sure Bush would also, but his campain is not about Husseins domestic policies but about the oil under his control.
Also our issues will not result with the loss and displacement of millions of lives, as with current sanctions and Bush's planned war.

Originally posted by sceptre
It's a right we gave ourselves in the Constitution we enacted - a constitution that contains a list of rules constraining the State and conferring rights that can't be taken away from people. The two are inseparable.

Yeah, I agree Sceptre, it's a right, but it's one thats been indirectly consistently defended by larger countries, either having weapons, or going to war to defend it.

Imagine for instance, if the U.S,was mexico, with little world influence, comparatively, and the Eastern Block had defeated Hitler, where would we be now?

Or if , U.S influence world wide waned after WW2 and , Ireland succumbed to communism.

There wouldn't be any U.S planes landing at Shannon, but one things for sure, the Gardastazi would be out , rounding up any protesters and shipping them off to camp.

Thats , what I wonder, about, I mean, we are not just lucky to be living here, we are lucky to be in a society that, allows the kind of protest at Shannon.
By and large the U.S supports the survival of those types of societies, something people who call it evil, should ponder.
mm

Cork

It's a right we gave ourselves in the Constitution we enacted - a constitution that contains a list of rules constraining the State and conferring rights that can't be taken away from people. The two are inseparable.

I agree but they don't have these rights in Iraq.

They are in fact living in fear.

What is the solution to rid themselves of Saddam?

Gavin

Originally posted by daveirl
We've gone a little off topic. Basically the only answer I've gotten is that we should stop them landing here regardless of the consequences. That we should let hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs.

What I want to ask and this is a general question not just specific to this thread if so many people hate America so much why don't they just boycott it. Don't buy anything american. Watch any american TV shows etc.

If you do you are indirectly funding the war on terror and since you have such a problem with it you should take this action.

As others have stated, it is not a matter of anti americanism, it is a matter of our government not adhering to the constitution of our country and our people.

And off the topic, to comment upon your american statements.

You say that the americans will withdraw their companies/investment etc. The fact that this threat is even used shows to what extent that america is leaning towards facism itself. The international outcry would be quite substantial should america follow through with such action.

To claim that America is invading iraq to save the people is laughable and remarkably naive. They are in it for the oil & money.

Irrespective to all of that, there are strong signs that the government has lied to us ( blatantly ) and broken the constitution ( again, blatantly ).

Gav

*cough*
Even, I have no doubts that the U.S and western Governments in general , would prefer that , Iraq's oil was being sold by a friendly government.

I think that , my approach to the U.S companies issue, anyhow, is that we should be mind full of the fact that they chose to set up here and the contribution they make to our economy.
It would be very easy, to *insult* them with protests that could be seen as anti american.
I do not have a problem with U.S troops filing through Shannon, while their planes are re-fueling, once they are not at war.

Their presence in the Gulf, shows at least one large State means business, when it comes to enforcing Un resolutions on wmd's.
mm

Wook

well after reading several newspapers i can say that people in Belgium have invaded a American Military base because they did theyre own inspection to know how many nukes we got in our little country..they all got arrested (off course).. How many weapons of mass destruction does Usa have ? to kill the planet a dozen times ? Would you trust a Bush if he was dark coloured and living in Iraq ?

Furthermore , the Usa is willing to leave Sadam by himself if he goes into Exile...They even said there would be no war tribunal...
Now tell me again ..what is this war for ? So the Usa can place a puppet as head of the country ? What about all the 'crimes' against humanity , Sadam did ? Usa says 'Tabula rasa ?'
Once again ..a nice little pointer that the people of Iraq and their policies is of no concern, the American president is there for different reasons. If it was for Justice and to trial the 'savage' they would not let him go.

Shannon airport is just a little fish...as i said before , if they don't land in Ireland , they probably will with their good friend 'Blair'

Wook

Originally posted by Man
*cough*
Their presence in the Gulf, shows at least one large State means business, when it comes to enforcing Un resolutions on wmd's.
mm

even when they plan to ignore the UN ?

they're not ignoring the UN. They just have very selective hearing...