Tits and Footie.

DeVore

Lately I've been talking to loads of my mates about the sort of stuff I've been posting here.
Morality, religion, politics etc etc.

I'm very lucky in that a good number of my mates hold and can express well-thought-out views on say, Turkey joining the EU or Cloning etc...

However it seems to me that the number of people who *want* to (or can!) talk about anything other then "Tits and Footie" are dwindling.

Now dont get me wrong, T&F are not bad subjects and not EVERYTHING has to be a searching conversation for the Truth but it seems that the general interest in world affairs, or in any philosophical topics is dying...

This could just be me but wandering through town last night was a pretty eye-opening experience...

Are we thinking less and drinking more?

DeV.

Beruthiel

Are we thinking less and drinking more?

yes, I think we are drinking more
but, thinking less? nope, I don't think so, how can you not think? are there not little voices in your head all the time giving you advice and asking you questions?
I never stop thinking, in fact, on occasion I have been accused of thinking too much!
but though I post on the boards a lot, they are short comments, I am at work and don't have the time to sit back and think out fully all the angles to some philosophical debate.... I'll leave that to you lazy individuals who have nothing to do!

hedgetrimmer

What'r ya on about? Shurrup ya git...ah sure you're me best mate n' I love you.

My perosnal opinion is that teh major shift has been from an essentailly Victorian model where time was available to think, gratned mostly to the well off, but as all those roles were shattered, and are still being shattered, the world has accelerated to such a frenetic pace that very few people actually take the time to think, substituting thought for quick-fillers like movies, the new mass of the naughties, or nights out.

Thought requires time. This world breaking-down into psychosis does not aloow us time to think.

We need to make the effort to set aside such time. People don't like effort

DeVore

in fact, on occasion I have been accused of thinking too much!

Yeah, but thats partly my point! Is there a reaction against thinking too much? Like in England, its not cool to be a student anymore and anyone who thinks too much is a "ponce" ...

Just after writing that piece, I walked from my apt to work. On the way I passed the iron-wrought statue of Patrick Kavanagh, sitting with arms and legs crossed looking out over the Grand Canal. Beside him is a space for people to sit and look out over the canal but this morning there was just a big pile of vomit on the ground where someone had obviously sat down last night and barfed.

Maybe its just me but I think our race is going to hell in a handbasket...

DeV.

Clintons Cat

I dont think the culture of soundbite politics that has arisen over the last few decades has been conducive to political debate in general.

To take to examples from the War on Terrorism,(itself a semantic shortcut)

Example 1
"your either with us or against us"

Now at first it seems a fairly crude demonstration of an attempt to stiffle not only opposition but also debate in general,the media certainly in the early days of the war in afganistan were happy to toe the political line and not raise awkward questions at politically inconvienient moments.

Example 2
"Weapons Of Mass Destruction".

How many of us have privately wondered what EXACTLY constitutes a weapon of mass destruction?
We all have our own private checklist of items we ASSUME are on the list And yet Politicians and the Media simply assume we all know which weapons they are talking about .
There seems to be a huge grey area especially in the weapons delivery system area with missiles that can be fitted with conventional as well as non conventional warheads.And also an even more awkward area of Dual purpose machinery for drugs/bio tech manufacture.
There was some confusion over wether or not the shipload of missiles intercepted on its way from north korea to yemen constituted a Weapon of Mass Destruction.I think in the end since the destination was a "friendly" country the shipment was considered ok and allowed to proceed.
Given that Britain and the USA are on the Brink of war based on the determination of wether or not Sadamn possesses weapons of mass destruction,dont you think we really all should have a clear idea of what they are,rather than what we assume they are.


..........

Originally Posted by DeVore
Now dont get me wrong, T&F are not bad subjects and not EVERYTHING has to be a searching conversation for the Truth but it seems that the general interest in world affairs, or in any philosophical topics is dying...

This could just be me but wandering through town last night was a pretty eye-opening experience...

probally more to do with the time of year,it has a tendency to bring out the worst in people,more people out and about=lowest common denominator ect.
Tits and Arse,footie and lager are fairly safe areas of conversation for male bonding sessions.By sticking to the hymm sheet of socially acceptable topics,one is not going to ostracise ones self from the group and risk social exclusion.
What constitutes a socially acceptable topic of course varies from social group to social group,as so beautifully illustrated in the "Telling The Camillas Breadbin Joke" scene in "The Office".

.......



........

my head hurts

DeVore

Hedgetrimmer, I agree and hadnt thought of it quite like that before.

CC, I agree but I wish you would attribute your quotes as you put one of mine after two from George W
I'd rather distance myself from him, thanks all the same.

DeV.

hedgetrimmer

I dunno, Dev, add a few years, a different hair style and put a "W." in the middle of your name.

:-P

TwoShedsJackson

Modern drinking emporiums seem to be designed to destroy the art of conversation from what I can see.

Saturday night I went to place of a friend of my girlfriend's, had a very pleasant dinner and were having a great chat etc. all of a sudden one person there gets the urge to go to Toast (in Rathmines) - and we go from having a great conversation about loads of different stuff to having to yell over music that must have been around the 120 decibel mark.

I realised then that it's pointless and even painful trying to shout over that racket (and they were playing music I like!) so I shut up and started pouring pints down me. Crap end to what had been shaping up as a great night.

shotamoose

I've asked myself and others the same question as Dev has, and there's no single answer to it. IMO, it has a lot to do with consumerism, which may be why we find ourselves asking it more at Christmas time. Ireland has become a lot more consumerist in the last twenty years, and consumerism depends on people NOT taking time out to contemplate world affairs or philosophical matters. The ideal consumer does not deliberate over the consequences of the choices they make. They put their short-term consumption before everything else. They're less considerate, more short-sighted, and more narrow-minded, basically.

These are just tendencies, mind. Consumerism hasn't taken over the world and we haven't been brain-washed into becoming unfeeling Scrooges. But there wouldn't be so much spend on advertising and marketing if they weren't even partly effective, and I think the consumerist ideology has now got an unduly large influence over how we live our lives. It's perhaps most notable in the booze industry because of the side effects from drinking.

[edited to change a 'not' to a 'now', rather important that :rolleyes: ]

Nevyn

it also may have to do with people of a generation that are not intrested in the news or current afairs. For watching the news or reading a reall paper is what thier parents did or other grown ups and they just do not see themselves in that grouping.

Conversation and debate just isnt " in " any more. Most of the pubs are far too loud for converstion of any sort.
There are a lot of people out there who would never consider going out to a restraunt for a meal and spend time talking.

DeVore

Twosheds, I couldnt agree more.

Out with friends at Xmas and we're all looking at each other smiling wanly over our pints because the music is so ****in loud any normal conversation was impossible.
I've had better conversations on IRC (though the beer isnt as good )

Maybe we all need to watch more American Gladiators.
I dunno...

DeV.

mike65

Cant disagree with anything shootamoose says, the youth of today are pished and dopped up. Their seniors are lazy and corrupt.
Everyones spending money they dont have on stuff they don't need (or want) and its Christmas again,
sigh
I really hate this time of year....

Mike.

Shinji

Perfect example of what Conor said - the Gingerman last night for the Boards beer! When I arrived at around nine, the music was fairly low and people could talk easily enough, by the time we left, it was so loud that you had to put your mouth beside someones ear and shout to be heard.

Sorry, but if I'm in a pub it's because I'm with people whose company I enjoy and I want to hear what they have to say, not stand around shovelling drink into me and staring morosely at them across a pint. But yet I've come across so many people who actually don't like pubs with quieter music!

It really is a bit sad that so many people feel almost embarrassed to have a serious or in any way meaningful conversation. I have friends who I /know/ are really intelligent, thoughtful people but who won't discuss anything in a serious way until they have a few pints in them to loosen up their inhibitions... What does it say about our society, that talking intelligently has become an inhibited thing, particularly among young people?



(On a contrary note, Dev, much as I enjoy and respect Kavanagh as a poet (and I genuinely do - what he wrote resonated a lot with me a few years back), I think the pile of puke might be a bit more appropriate to the man than the thoughtful statue. He was quite fond of the bottle )

The Gopher

Yes alot of people attempt to talk about a serious topic without having half a clue of what theyre talking about.If you mention Iraq and Bush they are likely to say something like"That Bush is mad for war.Hes itching for one"
Now,he may be intending on waging war but it is for a reason he believes is legitimate,not some sort of Who Has the Best Army pissing contest between the US and Iraq like much of thepublic seems to believe.People seem to read the headline and skip over most of the article,particularly the bits explaining the reason for a particular situation.

Shinji

Let's not turn this into a thread about Iraq, or about whether "winning an election" is a legitimate reason for waging a war

I guess even if people are discussing serious matters ignorantly, there's hope that they'll pick up knowledge from it and some day discuss them intelligently...

DapperGent

I'd agree with most of whats been said here.

Our current drinking establishments especially in Dublin almost all seem to deliberately stop people having conversations so they have nothing else to do except drink. In fact the only pub in Dublin I know that doesn't play music at all is the stags head.

Just one pub. Every other place has music so loud you have to shout at someone by 10-11 pm. I'm thinking about places like Doyles on college green which was basically my local all through college. During that time it's expanded and expanded (new basement bar opened a couple of weeks ago) and stopped being a place for a pint and a chat and become a nightclub with no dancefloor.

Contrasting this with my favourite pub in my hometown (Navan) which is titchy and a great place for a chat with a few lads in a corner playing music every other night of the week or with Berlin (which I visited last month) where even the biggest pub I was in would fit in Doyles four or five times over. Basically anyone can open a pub and theres loads of them pop in for a pint a chat, one of the nicest nights I had there I was drinking Erdinger in a tiny bar and playing scrabble til 3 in the morning. Fantastic stuff. Theres not one place in the whole city I could do that and thats a terrible shame.

The real trouble is that we have no choice, come 6 O'Clock in Dublin if you want to meet up with friends it's a big drinking barn or no where else. No cafes open, literally no where else to go except the cinema. The greatest shame I can see is that good conversation and social interaction is dieing simply for the want of an appropriate venue.

Borzoi

Originally posted by DapperGent
I'd agree with most of whats been said here.

Contrasting this with my favourite pub in my hometown (Navan) which is titchy and a great place for a chat with a few lads in a corner playing music every other night of the week or with Berlin (which I visited last month) where even the biggest pub I was in would fit in Doyles four or five times over. Basically anyone can open a pub and theres loads of them pop in for a pint a chat, one of the nicest nights I had there I was drinking Erdinger in a tiny bar and playing scrabble til 3 in the morning. Fantastic stuff. Theres not one place in the whole city I could do that and thats a terrible shame.

Again. general agreeent from myself.

One of the reasons for the incessant noise is that taht's what the avg 18-22 yr old wants, and they're the ones who start ordering redbulls and vodkas at midnight so they can keep heavuy drinking for another 3 hours before going out to start fights at taxi ranks. These are the customers who generate the most money for the bars, and with bar licenses being restricted and costing so much these are the people that the publican needs to keep his business running.

As D'gent says untill you can open a pub like a cafe, we are cursed to this situation.

But as to the original point there is currently nothing in our society that encourages:
- rational thought
- intelligent debate
- independance of mind

Not schools. nor university, not the media (esp visual media), nor clubs, nor drinking houses.

We have a facade of civilisation, nothing more, we are nothing but a declining Roman Empire, getting fat, stupid and lazy, untiull the empire crumbles.

Clintons Cat

We have a facade of civilisation, nothing more, we are nothing but a declining Roman Empire, getting fat, stupid and lazy, untiull the empire crumbles

I disagree,the scientific and technological advances of the last decade have totally outstripped any scientific age that has proceeded it.
The average educated citizen thanks to the miracle of the interweb and the cult of Google has instant access to quite liderallly millions of facts/useful information and idle musings than any citizen of the roman empire could ever dream of.We might amuse ourselves with the Bread and Circuses of cheap porn and quake but that should not be taken as empirical evidence that our civillization is in decline.

.............
Press Release
One of the fastest growing chains of pubs in a rapidly declining sector in the united kingdom is JD Wetherspoon.
Combining modern asthetic taste with competetive prices and a suprising No Music or Fruit Machines policy.JD wetherspoons have
found a marketing niche that none of the major brewers had previously exploited.
A quick google shows that they are expanding into Derry,followed by belfast and colraine so it follows that planned expansion into dublin will follow sometime in the next couple of years or so

They have promised to offer locals something new in the pub culture. The pubs will focus on creating a relaxing atmosphere. No music of any description will be played in the bar and non-smokers will be catered for. It is thought that up-to one quarter of the premises could be set aside as a no-smoking area. Food will be served throughout the afternoon and evening. Mr Gershon added: “JD Wetherspoons have been wanting to expand into Ireland for some time and we are happy that planning permission has been granted for the Derry site.”

[/Commercial Advertisment Ends]

Victor

Yeah, I concur with most of what has been said here.

Originally posted by DeVore
However it seems to me that the number of people who *want* to (or can!) talk about anything other then "Tits and Footie" are dwindling.

So, just what part of this topic do you discuss with your female friends?

DeVore

Feee...males ?



DeV.

Victor

Originally posted by DeVore
Feee...males ?

No, not amp. Females - the ones with real boobies.

amp

Ok, make with the big thinky paragraphs or face the big hurtful fistage.

(besides, my boobies are real... unfortunately)

Talliesin

There's never anything good on.

Actually the worse is the dreaded combination of television with the decline in public houses. Nothing worse than people who don't objecting to other people conversing in pubs because then they can't hear Coronation Street.