Irish Broadcasters, Widescreen and Sky Digital

thrillseeker

Apologies if I'm covering old ground.

I e-mailed each of the three Irish Broadcasters on Sky Digital - RTE, TV3 and TG4 to ask if they had plans to broadcast 16:9 anamorphic format on Sky Digital.

RTE - No Response (Worth every cent of license fee increase!)
TV3 - Responded with a flat No
TG4 - Said that they didn't want to broadcast two different formats on analog and digital and would wait for digital terrestrial. BTW they are recording all programs in 16:9 format.
When pressed further, TG4 said that in their opinion the freeview model recently launched in UK would be used here and that all analog services would be turned off forcing people to go digital. They reckoned anamorphic format would be standard from then on.

Any reactions?

kamobe

I'm using the NTL digital service (rubbish), but BBC, UTV,Chanell 4, Sky Sports, and one of the Movie channels are the only stations to currently broadcast in widescreen, and it makes a huge difference. For instance, will I watch the footy on RTE, or widescreen on BBC? Toughie that...

I've intended to write a letter to RTE for quite some time, maybe tomorrow...

watty

BBC over use WS. They broadcast far too much 4:3 or 14:9 resampled to 16:9 and FAR FAR to much 4:3 "letterboxed" in 16:9.

I'd seriously worry about what Montrose might do if ever bitten by the WS bug.

Far too much WS o/p (even in cinema) is excessively cropped. I realy hate watching close ups of characters talking with top of head and bottom of chin chopped. It just looks like 4:3 / Acadamy format badly matted to WS instead of filmed with Anamorphic lens (i.e. Panavision/Panaflex or video camera equivalent).

Cinema WS is not hardly ever TV WS (TV - 1.77:1 = 16:9). Cinema can be anything from 1.85:1 WS to 2.5:1 WS.

It is done by three methods:
1) True "panavision" is a distorting lens that compresses width onto a regular shape film frame. The projector unsqueezes it, just like a WS TV does with DVD or Satellite Anamorhpic WS.

2) Letterboxing. Regular camera / film is used but the part of frame to be seen is selected with a WS shaped mask called Matte. Sometimes the matte is readjusted for TV / VHS version giving some picture at top and bottom not seen in cinema, then less is chopped off the sides than with "panavision" 4:3 "pan & scan" transfers. This is why a DVD WS version can seem a bit like the VHS with top & bottom chopped off.. sometimes it is.. sort of. The DVD WS (or Sky Digital WS), OUGHT to be the orignal cinema release

3) Super 35mm or other formats where the film is wider frame. It is usually still matted.

Even (1) may be matted to an extent. It is like a good photographer making sure plenty is in shot and then cropping the image to the final print. Compare negatives and prints of professional wedding photographs to see what I mean. If you frame too tightly during photography, you can never add in the detail you missed outside the frame!

"Open" matting of 4:3 TV / VHS versions of cinema films.
This is why a DVD WS version can seem a bit like the VHS with top & bottom chopped off.. sometimes it is.. sort of. The DVD WS (or Sky Digital WS), OUGHT to be the orignal cinema release framing, and if 2.35:1 it likely is. It will then have black bars (letterboxing) even on WS TV.

Because all TVs "overscan", inc. WS TV, a 1.85:1 will not appear to be letterboxed on WS (which at 16:9 is really 1.78:1), though it really is. Some cinema really is 1.85:1, other releases are re-matted or Pan& Scanned to 1:85 from orignal 2.35:1 as a compromise.

I prefer 1.85:1 for Cinema WS on TV. For wider WS I borrow a video projector for the DVD/Satellite as the height is starting to get small on TV.

DMC

The current satellite licence that covers RTÉ, TG4 and TV3 on Sky Digital says "The programmes broadcast on all services will exactly mirror those broadcast terrestrially"

So, no widescreen.

dmeehan

is there any sign of this changing?
ie when does the current licence expire, and can/will new terms be re-negotiated? I'd love to see digital aertel text or whatever

watty

Originally posted by dmeehan
<snip> I'd love to see digital aertel text or whatever

Being pedantic:
Teletext:
:: Fast Text and Cached Text are instant
:: Random access to page you want e.g. 530 or 160
:: Lots of content
:: Doesn't mess up viewer in a different room or recording.
:: Its totally digital. On Satellite it gets its own stream (even works on my FTA PC Satellite receiver which can store / print / copy/paste /save any page, as can my Terrestrail PC receiver.
:: Overlay / tranparent modes
:: No stupid dogs on screen
:: one button to press

So called "Digital text"
:: Soooo Sloow to load
:: Sky has page numbers, BBC has not. Slow menus
:: Less content on BBC than used to be
:: Only on the Digibox, messes up recordings or other viewers
:: No method to capture text into Word, Excel etc as is with Teletext.
:: Only sensible if everything has its own "digibox" built in.
:: Takes just as much satellite bandwidth as Teletext. If you add still pictures or choice of 1/4 screen picture it is more bandwidth than teletext
:: Encourages broadcasters to put stupid red dots on screen (How much difference is there between red button and text button on BBC? None)
:: loads of button presses to read first item on BBC version

watty

Originally posted by thrillseeker
<snip>
TG4 - Said that they didn't want to broadcast two different formats on analog and digital and would wait for digital terrestrial. BTW they are recording all programs in 16:9 format.
When pressed further, TG4 said that in their opinion the freeview model recently launched in UK would be used here and that all analog services would be turned off forcing people to go digital. They reckoned anamorphic format would be standard from then on.

Optimists!

Irish DTT ha ha ha ha ha ......

We need to really promote Irish so our Great Grand Children will be able to watch Anamorphic TG4.

I'd love Freeview model DTT here. But I'm not (and havn't been) holding my breath.

Unless the TG4 respondant is a personal Buddy of Bertie and they both just got 46" 16:9 TVs.

I actually think that for output versus money in TG4 is the best Channel in Ireland. But the reply is heroically optimictiaclly hillarious!!!!

byte

Well at least, whoever made the reply at TG4 made a bit of an effort. RTE and TV3 take note! I'd have to wonder how well Irish DTT would do. If analog was turned off, then people would be forced with DTT whether they liked it or not. But if it will be a "freeview" model, then what can we expect on it? I can't imagine the 4 main UK terrestrials being freeview (which is what lot of people want)! Though it may open the doors for other channels. TMF and such like may be carried on an Irish Freeview. Sky News could easily be carried as it has Irish adverts. Plus there are radio channels. I for one would like to be able to receive the likes of Phantom FM up here in Donegal!

watty

Certinally the original DTT proposal, now very dead was:
Free:
Existing 4 Chs
New Dial (like BBC parliament)
New RTE News 24
New Education Ch
one New each for TV3 and TG4
Maybe another RTE

Pay 1:
UK TV

Pay 2:
Whatever the DTT operator likes


Not at all as exciting as UK freeview.

Originally..... (very originally) RTE was to manage it. It was to start when Sky was still analog and no UK Sky (other than the C5).
If that had happened Chorus & NTL MMDS would be dead and Sky not having it so easy. It didn't due to usual foot dragging.

Now with Sky heading to 400,000 and Chorus having a significant amount of Digital MMDS (which has FIVE times the channel capacity of UHF DTT ultimately) and some areas now on Digital Cable it is hard to see how Irish DTT can ever start now.

1) Digital Cable has higher capacity and better quality than DTT in Cities.
2) Digital MMDS or Digital Satellite are well established in Rural areas with Five or TWENTY times UHF DTT capacity.

It would cost less to operate a Free to View Encrypted Irish Satellite Service bypassing Sky renting direct from Eutelsat/Astra than install and operate a same capacity DTT ( 10 free Channels).

Richard

I could have sworn I saw an aspect ratio switch on RTE1 analogue yesterday. It looked like they were playing out a programme through an ARC and when it was over they switched back to 4:3 a bit too late. This is often seen on Paramount Comedy before and after ad breaks.

The output stays 4:3 throughout, even on Digital, but having ARCs might be the first step to true anamorphic w/s.

SRB

The current satellite licence that covers RTÉ, TG4 and TV3 on Sky Digital says "The programmes broadcast on all services will exactly mirror those broadcast terrestrially"

So, no widescreen.

==============================================

The BBC and ITV playout their services in WS from the one area and simply arc as required for analogue. This could be done at RTE and TV3 and before anyone says "Oh but that wouldn't be an exact mirror of what is being broadcast terrestrially" I think it's safe to assume the license refers to content, rather than format.

DaveH

The Dsat license is for everything, content and service. If RTE go interactive on SKY, NTL and Chorus would be murdered. What is the story with the RTE news channel. I heard that SKY, NTL and Chrous would carry it, NTL and chorus on the analouge system(to maxismise the viewership.) Or will we have to wait for DTT to See this one?

Mossy Monk

Originally posted by DaveH
The Dsat license is for everything, content and service

what genius wrote that into the license :mad:

Winters

I hope that more tv is broadcast in 16:9. Its annoying having it all mixed between channels. though whats really annoying is when films are shown on like superletterbox when you get about 1inch top and bottom of the screen covered with black lines, though my tv does just resize the image ... arnt smart tv's great

Charles Slane

Am I the only person who doesn't think that widescreen is the best thing since sliced bread ???

Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what size wide-screen it would take to replace a regular 32" regular screen with the same size viewing area, and what the difference would be in price.

As far as I can see so far, the whole "widescreen"thing has been an outrageous rip-off of the more technologically adventurous among us (which I would normally count myself among).

There aren't enough programmes to watch in the proper aspect, so you spend most of your time watching channels like sky news without the the clock, or regular programmes distorted bizarrely.

It seems to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong, which I may well be) that there isn't really enough widescreen programming (whatever happened to those fake promises of widescreen Sky One and Sky News ??) to justify spending the inflated prices that the manufacturers and shops are offering to us.

I reckon that most people buying widescreen TVs at the moment are taken for a very costly ride and the rest of us will gradually be forced into replacing our old TVs with systems that are not supported by anyone in Ireland other than Sky Premier widescreen.

The hardware companies seem to be really taking the viewing public for mugs and unfortunately a lot of people are falling for it.

Widescreen ??? There's nothing to see here folks, move along !!

SteM

Originally posted by Charles Slane

Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what size wide-screen it would take to replace a regular 32" regular screen with the same size viewing area, and what the difference would be in price.

It's not really a valid comparison. For me it's being able to be able to watch a footy match on BBC, Sky Sports or ITV in widescreen, being able to view more of the pitch than you can on a 'normal' TV. Likewise with DVDs. Put a w/s movie versus a P&S copy and I'll always watch the widescreen version.

Originally posted by Charles Slane

There aren't enough programmes to watch in the proper aspect, so you spend most of your time watching channels like sky news without the the clock, or regular programmes distorted bizarrely.

It seems to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong, which I may well be) that there isn't really enough widescreen programming (whatever happened to those fake promises of widescreen Sky One and Sky News ??) to justify spending the inflated prices that the manufacturers and shops are offering to us.

There's plenty if you watch BBC, ITV, Channel 4 or Sky Sports. I'm not a Sky Digital subscriber, I subscribe to NTL Digital but practically everything broadcast over Christmas on BBC, ITV & Channel 4 was broadcast in w/s and it's the same most days. If something's not broadcast in w/s then the TV will just readjust itself so the picture looks like a normal 4:3 telly. Why would you want to look at distorted pictures? Just because that's the way Dixons/Currys demo them doesn't mean they have to be viewed like that.

Originally posted by Charles Slane

I reckon that most people buying widescreen TVs at the moment are taken for a very costly ride and the rest of us will gradually be forced into replacing our old TVs with systems that are not supported by anyone in Ireland other than Sky Premier widescreen.

The hardware companies seem to be really taking the viewing public for mugs and unfortunately a lot of people are falling for it.

There's no doubt that if you just have an analogue cable setup or an aerial then there's no point in getting a W/S TV. My folks will need a new TV in a few months for instance and I wouldn't dream of pointing them in the direction of widescreen, it's just not for them. No one's being pushed into buying a widescreen TV, however it's increased my enjoyment of TV football and movies by mixing it with a DVD player so I wouldn't hesitate in picking another one up.

Originally posted by Charles Slane

Widescreen ??? There's nothing to see here folks, move along !!

Strangly, that's not what my mates that I've demoed it to have been saying!

S.

watty

Screens are measured diagonally and optimistically...
i.e. A 28" widescreen may have 27 to 27.5" of picture diagonally.
a so called 29" 4:3 TV may be 27" to 28" diagonally.

A 21" 4:3 TV needs a 32" or 36" WS TV to show 4:3 pictures at same size.

A 28" WS TV is TINY for regular pictures. (Like a 12" or 14" portable).

A big Sony, Philips or "Black Diamond" 4:3 TV (bigger than 27") may have a WS mode. This collapses the height and shows an anamorphic WS picture the same lines & quality as a WS TV (It "pretends" it has a WS tube). Turns out a that a 28" 4:3 model which can show DVD or Satellite set to 16:9 is only slightly smaller WS picture and quality as a twice as expencive 28" WS TV and about sames size 4:3 picture as 36" / 38" WS costing nearly ten times more.

If you are used to 21" 4:3 you need 36" WS TV

Even on a WS TV you will STILL get black bars on WS cinema on Sky or DVD as WS TV is 1.78:1 ratio and WS Cinema is anything from 1.85:1 to 2.6:1

I bought my "Black Diamond" 28"/29" 4:3TV for 350Euro. It does true WS (Digibox and DVD set to 16:9). Same quality 32" WS is about 1400 Euro. Same quality 28" WS is about 700 Euro, but is almost same size WS pic and MUCH smaller 4:3 picture.

If you are buying a 4:3 TV look for a menu that does Auto/4:3/16:9. If you are buying WS, have lots on money and get a Sony or Philips 100Hz 36" WS or else just get a big 4:3 delux model with automatic WS support.

Avoid Plasma as they wear out in 5000 hours. For really big a Projector (LCD or DLP) is 1/2 the price and only the bulb wears out. The Projectors do 4:3 and 16:9 and of course you can have a pull down screen from cieling

SRB

The Dsat license is for everything, content and service.
==============================================
Doesn't that mean the Digi Pictures should therefore mirror the rather dodgy quality pictures that a number of the RTE TX's output in analogue ????

Charles Slane

Originally posted by Charles Slane
Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what size wide-screen it would take to replace a regular 32" regular screen with the same size viewing area, and what the difference would be in price.

As far as I can see so far, the whole "widescreen"thing has been an outrageous rip-off of the more technologically adventurous among us (which I would normally count myself among).

Widescreen ??? There's nothing to see here folks, move along !!

Watty's well-researched and informative reply to my question has reinforced my belief that widescreen is (at the moment anyway) an expensive rip-off perpetrated by the electrical manufacture and retail industries who use the promise of new and better technology to drive their sales.

In this case I think that widescreen TVs are not worth the extra money they cost and I agree with Watty's conclusion that a large 4:3 TV is currently a much wiser investment.

Mossy Monk

up until about a month or 2 ago i used the letterbox mode and then one day a w/s telly was brought into the house. seeing as i mostly watch BBC and Sky Sports i wouldn't go back to a 4:3 unless the w/s broke down. more w/s content now would be brilliant. some hope of all film channels and Sky 1 changing but i can live in hope

byte

Originally posted by watty

If you are used to 21" 4:3 you need 36" WS TV

Are you kidding? :rolleyes:

hudson806

Originally posted by watty

A 21" 4:3 TV needs a 32" or 36" WS TV to show 4:3 pictures at same size.[/i]/B]

Well, that's just a load of rubbish. A 28" widescreen will show a larger 4:3 image than a 21" 4:3 set. Look here if you don't believe me.

A 28" WS TV is TINY for regular pictures. (Like a 12" or 14" portable).

Err, well, like a 22'" 4:3. They're not very portable though. I agree that a 28" is a bit on the small side though if you want to watch 4:3 material though.

Turns out a that a 28" 4:3 model which can show DVD or Satellite set to 16:9 is only slightly smaller WS picture and quality as a twice as expencive 28" WS TV and about sames size 4:3 picture as 36" / 38" WS costing nearly ten times more.

A 28" 4:3 will do 4:3 at about 2" greater in size than a 32" ws (assuming you don't use any of the funny 'smart' modes on the ws set.) . A 36" ws has a slightly larger viewable area than a 28" 4:3.

Even on a WS TV you will STILL get black bars on WS cinema on Sky or DVD as WS TV is 1.78:1 ratio and WS Cinema is anything from 1.85:1 to 2.6:1

Wow. original aspect ratio doesn't always perfectly fit a ws television. Who cares? I bought a ws set so I could watch original aspect ratio - not so it would fill my screen.

I bought my "Black Diamond" 28"/29" 4:3TV for 350Euro. It does true WS (Digibox and DVD set to 16:9). Same quality 32" WS is about 1400 Euro.

Or you could buy a Black Diamond 32" Widescreen from Power City for €650. Still almost twice the price for basically the same crap that their 28" no doubt is, I'll give you that. Its not €1400 though.

If you are buying a 4:3 TV look for a menu that does Auto/4:3/16:9. If you are buying WS, have lots on money and get a Sony or Philips 100Hz 36" WS or else just get a big 4:3 delux model with automatic WS support.

Nah. I'd say, if you have analogue cable or terrestial, don't watch many DVDs, and don't intend to upgrade, get a 4:3. If you have access to digital TV or watch a lot of DVDs get widescreen. You certainly won't regret it - properly set up, Widescreen with digital TV and DVD is stunning.

And to get this back on track briefly, I think its really encouraging that TG4 are recording everything in 16:9, and have considered a model for transmitting in widescreen in the future. Very progressive, and to be congratulated, expecially considering the shoestring budget the channel operates on.

byte

Originally posted by hudson806
And to get this back on track briefly, I think its really encouraging that TG4 are recording everything in 16:9, and have considered a model for transmitting in widescreen in the future. Very progressive, and to be congratulated, expecially considering the shoestring budget the channel operates on.

Yes would have to agree and would go so far as to say it's the best of the four Irish channels atm. Even has some brilliant films on it.

lawhec

We got a widescreen telly for Xmas, a 28 inch model (the living room isn't big so a huge telly wasn't really needed). When the material being broadcast on Sky Digital is actual widescreen along with an RGB output the quality is brilliant. However, only the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5, E4, Sky Premier Widescreen, Sky Sports and attheraces really make use of it. The best use I see for it is sports events, but just about every program benefits being in widescreen.

Just working out there that if you have a 28 inch widescreen TV, view a 4:3 program in it will give a rough equivalent of a 23 inch 4:3 telly using pythagrous (Sp?) therom.

Widescreen tellys are really of any use if you can control the aspect ratio of your source, and having something that is digitally sourced like Sky or a DVD does the trick. Once you've seen a PROPER widescreen transmission you'll prefer it over it's 4:3 equivalent every time. However for analogue transmission only it really isn't worth the bother unless you fancy seeing bloated people all the time. Funnily enough I point this out to some people about the aspect ratio being wrong (watching 4:3 material in 16:9 streched mode) and they often reply back "well, I got a widescreen TV so I'll watch the program in widescreen!"

It's a pity that RTE, TV3 and TG4 can't transmit in widescreen on Sky - it would be a huge bonus to many people who have invested in the technology.

Finally, did you know that the only ITV region that transmits it's local news programs in widescreen is UTV?:eek:

rlogue

It's a pity that RTE, TV3 and TG4 can't transmit in widescreen on Sky - it would be a huge bonus to many people who have invested in the technology.

I would think we'll see breakfast TV on RTÉ before they attempt widescreen switching on Sky!