Turkey and the EU

mike65

Turkey after many years of asking, have finally been given a broad
date, subject to certain criteria being met, for the start of negotiations to join the EU. Ten years ago I would have been dead set against the EU allowing them in but now I think it can hardly come soon enough, provided they pass muster on the basic tentents of free-market democracy they should be made full members.

Many will proberly not fancy the idea of a major Islamic country (though a secular state) being part of the club but given its stratigic postition and the dismal geo-political view beyond its borders I'd say its important for all of us that the region has at one major nation that can act as a becon for stable democracy.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/enlargement/turkey/

Mike.

aine

personally I cannot see how Turkey's inclusion in the EU could or ever would work! While we might try and convince ourselves that the EU is about cultural diversity etc, a country so fundamentally different to the other member states will never fully integrate! Its human rights issues are enough to set it apart in the first place!

Plus did I miss something in Geography? since when is Turkey in Europe?

hallelujajordan

Turkey's human rights record alone should be enought to keep it out of the EU . . . . . and how can you reconcile the strict equal opportunities legislation which has become a cornerstone of EU policy, AND the very obvious inequalities existant in an Islamic state ? ? ?

Meh

Originally posted by hallelujajordan
Turkey's human rights record alone should be enought to keep it out of the EU

Precisely. That's why the Turks are being asked to improve their human rights situation before they can join. Remember Spain and Greece had fairly miserable human rights records as well before they joined the EU...

. . . . . and how can you reconcile the strict equal opportunities legislation which has become a cornerstone of EU policy, AND the very obvious inequalities existant in an Islamic state ? ? ?

Turkey isn't an Islamic state. It has a secular constitution, legal system and government.

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by Meh
Turkey isn't an Islamic state. It has a secular constitution, legal system and government.

This may be true, but of the 62Million population, more than 60Million are muslim, and islamic doctrine does not sit well with equal opportunities legislation !!

Turkey is a secular state albeit with the vast majority of the population being muslim.
And , up untill recently they had a woman primeminister? That could only happen in a secular society.

Mind you, I was in Gumbet about 6 years ago , and on one of the days, drove a hire car up to Marmaris, and what did we see, in the boiling heat??:D
Hundreds of women in full shoe lenght heavy looking dresses and shawls out in the fields picking cotton!
Not a man in sight...! and in fact on the way back the only men we saw were driving the tractors with trailer loads of the women bringing them home probably to cook the supper:D

From what I could see the men were, all down at the resorts for the day, proposing to the western women:eek:

I don't see that sort of mindset gelling very well into, equal opportunity laws E.U style.
Perhaps,if Some north African Countries were to join the E.U( not beyond the bounds of possibility in the future,considering Turkey is the gateway to Aisa) and maybe Iran, their elected representatives would number enough to eventually bring in some E.U wide conservative legislation.
Mary Harney would have to cover up:p
mm

Meh

Originally posted by hallelujajordan
This may be true, but of the 62Million population, more than 60Million are muslim, and islamic doctrine does not sit well with equal opportunities legislation !!

Neither does Catholic doctrine. And Turkey is a much more secular state than Ireland was at the time we joined the EU.

Jimi-Spandex

islamic doctrine does not sit well with equal opportunities legislation !!

True, but I think you'll find neither does traditional Catholic doctrine, but we seem to have modernised.

Once again on the point of the extreme secular nature of the State itself, It is designed so that it is pretty much impossible to become a theocracy.

treatment of prisoners and minorities is improving in Turkey and they will(assuming they want to join the EU) bring their record in this area up to scratch.

People seem to be ignoring the VAST benefits to the current members of having turkey in the EU. Look at the massive market your opening up to our companies, the trade links to asia, the power of the turkish army even.

I can see no reason, assuming they improve their HR and treament of minorities record, why they shouldn't be allowed to join the EU

halkar

I think Turkey's human rights problems are as much of EU fault as Turkey's , they have been trying to join to EU for decades, far longer than those ex-comunist countries. If EU was easy on them few decades ago , they would have improved a lot by now. But I think for them being a Muslim nation was the biggest reason why they have not had any luck for many years , EU just doesn't admitted ? do they? Of course EU has human rights and they beleive equality with religion :rolleyes:

Also the big members like Germany and France wouldn't really want another big voice in EU as Turkey probably has more population then all other 10 or so countries joining now . I don't know but they will join eventually maybe after the next German elections when 4 million or so Turks voting for the party in favour of Turkey in union

Turkey is secular and will stay like this forever. It is protected by army and no government can change that, they tried but failed. And the question of Turkey geographicaly being in Europe is rubbish as EU probably will expand to north of Africa eventually if Turkey joins and other Muslim states can improve their secularity. Maybe it is a long shot but possible :rolleyes:

They have a good economy after the damages of Gulf war with millions of refugees and few hundred thousand more from Bulgaria after comunism collapse and eartquakes and other economic disasters they are still up there and there are a lot of investments in Turkey from Asia and Europe (most car makers have their factories there and export from ther) and a big market which is gateway to both Asia and Middle East.
I think they have a potential of being a major player in EU if they do join and that is probably something big players in EU wants!!:D

What is EU anyway?

Victor

Originally posted by aine
a country so fundamentally different to the other member states will never fully integrate!

The EU is primarily an economic and political union - and Turkey is quite capable of taking part in these respects. And of course it will be integrated (but not assimilated) - look at the diversity of all the other countries.

Originally posted by aine
Its human rights issues are enough to set it apart in the first place!

Are being addressed. Look at France's record in 1968 (hundreds murdered by the police) - when it was in the EEC. Or the British in NI. Or Italy. Or the Portugese, Spanish, oor Greeks immediatly before they joined.

Originally posted by aine
Plus did I miss something in Geography? since when is Turkey in Europe?

Obviously you did. The section of Turkey west of the Dardanelles is in Europe - it has borders with Bulgaria and Greece. And some overseas (South America & Pacific) French départements are in the EU - look at your €20 note. As are the Canaries (part of Africa) and the Spanish North Afican enclaves. Morrocco had previously applied to join the EU / EEC. How about that for diversity.

Typedef

The entire fact the Turkey invaded and militarily occupies parts of Cyprus is in my mind sufficient remit to deny entry, nor substantive engagement with Turkey.

Turkey has a history of supressing Kurds in Eastern Turkey and for these two reasons I must say that I think the idea of allowing Turkey to join the EU is largely a spurious idea, until Turkey starts behaving a little less like Israel and a little more like a modern State.

Typedef.

halkar

Originally posted by Typedef
The entire fact the Turkey invaded and militarily occupies parts of Cyprus is in my mind sufficient remit to deny entry, nor substantive engagement with Turkey.

Turkey has a history of supressing Kurds in Eastern Turkey and for these two reasons I must say that I think the idea of allowing Turkey to join the EU is largely a spurious idea, until Turkey starts behaving a little less like Israel and a little more like a modern State.

Typedef.

Turkish invasion (as you call it) of Cyprus was to protect Turkish population there as rest of the world didn't care about it when Greek parties tried to take over the all island, Greeks killing of Turks went on for years , it was like ethnic cleansing just like what happened in Balkans recently. Island was suppose to be free from guns and weapons and whatever but how did the Europe allow the greeks to get armed there for years and if it was an invasion why didn't Europe stopped them? Don't forget there are just as many Turks there as there are Greeks and no one cared about what was happening to Turks there while you were sitting and reading one sided news in the papers and watching the news on the telly which they are of course always defend the Greeks at the time while ignoring Turks. Start reading and watching with two eyes instead of one and don't forget there are two sides in every coin and you only get to see one side here :rolleyes: Since when was the last time you heard good things about Turkey in the media? Same with the Kurdish issue, this is a very big and complex problem but it is all being addressed by them after the collapsed of their terrorist group PKK !! Europe backed up those people for many years by housing them and only recently since the terorist attacks to two towers they have been recodnized as terrorist organization. It is a funny world after all isn't it? After all it is not easy to divide a country just because some group wants so. I don't see England letting North to join South so why should Turkey divide their lands all because some Kurdish groups wants them so. It is not only Turkey but their proposed borders goes to Iraq and Iran but they don't have much activity in those country purely because those countries wouldn't care what EU or world thing , they just punish them, imagine they demand northern Iraq from Saddam:D
And don't forget who it was to open their borders when Saddam was killing the Kurdish people in Northern Iraq after the Gulf War!! There were millions of refugees and Turkey had to close their borders after so many and there wasn't any help from Europe and European countries didn't take refugees from Iraq like they did when the problems was in Bosnia.
We only see what they want us to see on the news and we only read what they want us to read!! If Turkey didn't want the Kurdish, why did they let thousands of them in?
One more thing and we all watched Midnight Express where the victim himself admitted that the film was far more then realistic, he himself is a fan of the big city himself and can't go to Turkey any more over the film Then again this was happened in early 70s and I don't think there were many countries even in Europe with good prison systems not like now anyway :rolleyes:
Personally I would like to see Turkey joining as it would benefit Europe in many ways like it has said above.
And they become 3rd in World Cup woooow !! That is the country team that many used to laugh at :rolleyes: Even though they have one of the worst supporters maybe.

bonkey

Originally posted by Victor
Obviously you did. The section of Turkey west of the Dardanelles is in Europe - it has borders with Bulgaria and Greece. And some overseas (South America & Pacific) French départements are in the EU - look at your €20 note. As are the Canaries (part of Africa) and the Spanish North Afican enclaves. Morrocco had previously applied to join the EU / EEC. How about that for diversity.

Besides...Turkey has participated in the Eurovision Song Contest for years! If that doesnt qualify you, what does

Originally posted by Typedef
I must say that I think the idea of allowing Turkey to join the EU is largely a spurious idea, until Turkey starts behaving a little less like Israel and a little more like a modern State.

I agree fully....but I do not agree with any of this ranting about "they're bad and should never be let in" or even worse the "they're Muslim and that just wont work" line.

Turkey are tryng to make reforms. If they succeed to a reasaonble level, they should be considered for membership. If they continue to succeed they should be given membership. If they fall by the wayside, they should be kicked out.

Religious intolerance....lets not go there.

I mean - I havent heard a single person telling us Germany should not be in the EU because of those horrific things they did a handful of decades ago, or that all Catholic nations should be kicked out cause of what the Inquisition did to the Cathars.

jc

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

halkar

Originally posted by daveirl
Turkey are not even willing to admit their previous human rights violations so what makes people think they are willing to change.

http://kurdistan.org/Current-Updates/arm.holocaust.html
http://groong.usc.edu/fisk.html

Also one of the main reasons they are even getting the date for talks is because the Americans are pressuring the EU to allow Turkey join because Turkey are a strategic ally of the US

Those were the things that might :rolleyes: happened in 1915 and earlier maybe but I don't see why that should be used as a reason for human rights violations. Turkey was formed in 1923, previous to that it was Ottoman Empire which was completely different case and those years the World was pretty f@cked up.

That was WW1 and many people died and many countries broke human rights as if there was anything called human rights then.
If they were to dig the past and make an excuse for anything about the future then why did they allow many European countries that colonised America, Africa and Asia and beyond and used, abused, killed many of the natives in those continents?

Wasn't that against human rights? Did they admit all they have done in those continents ? And remember most of the Africa is being eaten by European countries for their gold, diamond and petrol and yet they are starving. What about their human rights? Do you think they are being treated rightfully while they are digging those mines?

You can't just keep dig the past and live with it. You have to move on. As Bonkey you have Germany there with more horrific and proven recent history. Where is 1915 and 1930s-40s?:rolleyes: How do can you be sure of Germany changed or France or others? Remember all it takes is a one mad man to change the course of history.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

halkar

Originally posted by daveirl
There is no might about the Armenian Holocaust. It happened and denying it is akin to denying the Jewish Holocaust and yet it is acceptable to do so? Can you imagine what would happen here if you had just said that the Jewish Holocaust had not happened. You'd be ripped to pieces.

You logic in comparing the Armenian Holocaust to other atrocoties is seriously flawed. You say that the Ottoman Empire committed the events not present day Turkey. Well The German Empire commited the Jewish Holocaust and the present day borders weren't drawn until after the war. Does this mean the germans are exonerated and should be allowed to deny that it happened - NO!!!

The fact is that the Germans don't deny that it happened and are infact embarrased and appaulled about what happpened. The Turks in fact take part in attempt to write 1.5 million Armenians out of history and make no apologies for it.

I wonder how many people only heard of the Armenian Holocaust here now, because I brought it up. Indeed Mr Hitler "Who now remembers the Armenians"

There is no denying here, the reason I have said might is I am sure both Armenians and Turks have their own stories about this and your links doesn't really tell anything about what happened to Armenians in and around WW1.
And what is Armenians got to do with EU, Turkey and this thread? Until it is proven which party is right or until Turkey admits of your claims it will stay as a might for me unlike the Jewish Holocaust.

bonkey

Originally posted by halkar
I am sure both Armenians and Turks have their own stories about this

I'm pretty sure the Nazis and Jews had their own (differing) stories about the Jewish Holocaust as well. As far as I am aware, the Turkish nation are about the only significant group on the face of the planet who deny that this atrocity happened. If this is enough for you to use the word "might", then I assume that you also believe that anyone found guilty in court who protested their innocence is only possibly guilty.

I would agree with you, however, in stating that the question of the Armenian genocide is secondary to the question at hand. What is not secondary is Turkey's current track record, and I've already stated my position on that.

jc

halkar

Originally posted by bonkey
..... As far as I am aware, the Turkish nation are about the only significant group on the face of the planet who deny that this atrocity happened. ....
jc

Turkey is not denying the atrocity, they are denying the fact that Armenian says it was 1.5 million where as Turkey says it is far less than this. It is not being accepted openly by any other nation and both sides stories still there to be proven. Take a look at the treaty of Sevres http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/versa/sevres1.html and take a look at the map of Turkey that was decided by other nations and ill empire of Ottomans http://raven.cc.ukans.edu/~kansite/ww_one/gifs/armenia.gif which was not accepted by Ataturk and other leaders they were fighting around that time for their independence. All the lands that was given to Armenia are in Turkish borders. This treaty was made in 1920 and incidents were arond 1915-16, nothing about it in this treaty. Also in Treaty of Lausanne http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/lausanne.html where Turkish independence and bounderies accepted, there isn't a single word Armenia in it. So the question of what happened then is still there and unclear. There said to be around 2 million Armenians in Ottoman borders those years and with the state of the unorginised Turkish Army fighting every corner of the country it wouldn't have been that difficult for the Armenians to fight for those lands where they were getting heavy backing from British, Russian and other nations. History is full of misteries, Turkey lost millions of people while fighting for their independence those years and there were many Turkish children and women died to in these wars and maybe they were slaughtered by those nations who knows :rolleyes: There is something happened but it is open for a debate. And both sides are fighting for their own cause for this matter. Consequences of any war is terrible and many innocents dies directly or indirectly so keep digging the past is not really relevant to this tread and if Turkey be accepted to EU or not.

I agree on the Turkey's current track record on human rights and we can see and read that they have been working on them, otherwise they wouldn't be looked at by EU in last summit. But as I said earlier I do think that this was as much EU's fault as it is Turkey's since Turkey as been ignored by EU for decades and things have been much different if they were looked at maybe 20 years ago. After all all those ex-communist countries didn't have good human right records either when they applied for EU and yet they have improved quickly with the help of EU as the light was given them many years ago unlike Turkey where they have been ignored and kept at last in the queue for many years.

Well maybe it would be good for Turkey joining EU in the future but there is still a chance that this probably will never happen :rolleyes:

halkar

[Edit]
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/versa/sevres1.html

[/Edit]

daveirl

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gurramok

I agree with what daveirl states. Turkey has to own up to what it has done in the past and what it is doing in the present. Their human rights record is atrocious.
The Armenian holocaust, i had seen a documentary about it on tv a few years ago.
There was an investigation by the a US committee in the late 80s into the atrocity which was hindered by the US gov as turkey was seen as vital to NATO.

And don't forget who it was to open their borders when Saddam was killing the Kurdish people in Northern Iraq after the Gulf War!!

I remember tv pictures back then, it was the turkish border guards that were beating the kurds with batons and rifle butts,
they only let in a small number of refugees then !
The treatment of the kurdish minority(about 12m of them) until this year would have put Saddam himself to shame !

Only a small part of turkey in is europe geographically, its ludricous to let them in on this basis. I guess the EU will have to be renamed with an Asian dimension if turkey were to be let in !

Typedef

Turkish invasion (as you call it)

Well what else does one call it when an army occupies another State by force? Incursion is the popular Sharonism for this sort of 'non-invasion', so perhaps, "thirty year incursion" is an acceptable soundbite euphamism if 'invasion' is unpalletable for you.

Cyprus was to protect Turkish population there as rest of the world didn't care about it when Greek parties tried to take over the all island

Interesting logic you have there. Perhaps you think there is sufficeint remit for Egypt for example to invade Israel (assuming it could), given the fact the rest of the world simply doesn't care about Palestine?

Greeks killing of Turks went on for years , it was like ethnic cleansing just like what happened in Balkans recently. Island was suppose to be free from guns and weapons and whatever but how did the Europe allow the greeks to get armed there for years and if it was an invasion why didn't Europe stopped them?

See, the flaw in your logic is that Turkey acted unilaterally and without the consent of the international community. Therefore once you validate such actions by 'rationalisation' as you have just attempted to do, you infact validate all unilateralist actions taken by a State anywhere, be that State Israel, Iraq, Indonesia or Ireland. Once you start to disjunct between unilateralist decisions (particularly in the military sense), you loose the moral highground as it were.
If one takes your propisition through to it's logical conclusion, you would support the full scale invasion of Iraq, without UN consent by the USA, because of Iraq's alleged and I stress alleged so-called weapons of mass destruction.
Funnily enough such unilateralist, big monkey with a stick foriegn policy is in fact the antithesis of any pretence to a functional modern and quasi-evolved society, humans might make pretence to.

After all it is not easy to divide a country just because some group wants so.

Unless of course one has the military muscle to do so hmm?
Might is right? Perhaps you think it 'fair' that Cyprus is divided in two where only 18% give or take of Cyprus is in fact Turkish? That seems like a lot of land for such a persecuted and downtrodden people doesn't it?

I don't see England letting North to join South so why should Turkey divide their lands all because some Kurdish groups wants them so.

Clearly, by your logic, the wishes of Turkish people come before the wishes of others, be those others Greek Cypriots or Kurds.
You are entitled to that opinion and I as an EU citizen am entitled to mine. Why should I as an Irish person and EU citizen acquiece to allowing a country with such a righteously indignant foriegn policy paradigm join the EU? The topic of the thread after all is just that. Ireland came very close to filibustering East European countries entry into the EU, ostensibly for reasons to do with Ireland, but in the case of Turkey, I as an Irish person would have to demand that my government put extraneous pressure onto the machisma of the Union's entry process, such that Turkey was barred from entry, until such time as it came to a 'humane' and equality based settlement with the Kurds in Turkey, as opposed to an oppressive and selfish "Why should Turkey relent, when Turkey has more guns" attitude.

Quid Pro Quo, Turkey is capable (though not entitled) to exponenciate such an insular and selfish foriegn policy, but until such time as it wises up and realises that many countries in the EU, don't agree with Turkey on that front, it is unlikely, I or many European citizens like me will support Turkish entry into the Union.

So fine, let Turkey be selfish and ignorant, the EU has something Turkey wants, ie, membership and for me as a citizen of the EU, I will not countenance Turkish entry to the EU, unless it plays nice.
Of course the large countries in the Union, might disagree, but, by and large, I'm quite sure it is not only Irish people who are enraged by Turkish 'might is right' foriegn policy ignorance.

Regards
Typedef.

ps.
I don't to smilies.

halkar

Cyprus is a complex issue and recently they have improved their relations and also the Greeks and Turks. If it was an invasion then why didn't UN stop them or EU or British or Greeks? Turkey didn't have the power to stand the world after all. It is obvious that you know nothing about the all Cyprus issue so I let you do some reading http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909067.html It was clear what was going in Cyprus was ethnic cleansing which even put Greeks to shame and it was Makarios supporters in the island that broke the treaty between Turkey, Greek and Britain http://www.trncinfo.com/TANITMADAIRESI/2002/ENGLISH/DOCUMENTS/1.htm
I am backing up neither Turkey nor Greek on this one as both sides committed some inhumanly crimes in this case but if they are willing to move on so why shouldn't we as Europeans. Personally I don't think Turkey will join the union and even if it will come close to it I am sure there will be some kind of voting and you can vote as you wish. I believe there are two sides to every story and as I said earlier when was the last time you heard good things about turkey from the media?

...Turkey is capable (though not entitled) to exponenciate such an insular and selfish foriegn policy, but until such time as it wises up and realises that many countries in the EU, don't agree with Turkey on that front, it is unlikely, I or many European citizens like me will support Turkish entry into the Union....

I agree every single letter in this and it is possible that EU can control their capabilities and also this might help the Kurdish, Armenian and Cypriots causes eventually.
Somehow it is keep coming to my mind that Turkey will never be allowed in EU and I don't believe it will be anything to do with their human right records or anything else and even if they were angel of the world taking a such a large Muslim country to EU is very remote and if you had all that about the human rights and other issues it really looks like impossible.
I voted Yes for the Nice treaty as I believed others should be given a chance too and I will vote Yes if they ask for Turkey too for the same reason. If it will be good or bad thing , that is something time will show.

Gurramok,

Do a google on the web for over 1.5 million Kurdish crossed the borders of Turkey and Iran when Saddam was using chemical weapons. It was asked both Iran and Turkey for an UN borders to be established in the region and it was rejected both Europe and US at the time. And both countries closed their borders. Neither Iran nor Turkey was in a situation of accepting so many refugees. And I don't think any country in the world could.