Free weights vs Weight machines

Runfree

Which one do you think is better???

Personally I would go for free weights. I prefer this because you got to control weight when you are lifting the weights which therefore can make it harder to do the excersice right where with machines you only have restricted movement which makes it easier and give you the idea that you can lift much more which you think because the restricted movement allows you to lift more. The only machine I do like in addition to free weight would be the smith rack as you can do some great excersises with this once again you do have restricted movement but still it is a great machine for multiple excersises.

logic1

Both have their merits. I believe you can only truly grow when you use free weights. Every exercise will use primary and secondary muscles, primary for the main empahsis of the lift and secondary for stability throughout the lift. This gives improved all overall muscle growth and improved strength of connectivity tissue.

Most machine do work on restrictive axis and can tend to pull the muscle in incorrect directions sometimes even providing painful reps.

Machines I would use regularly would be stuff like the cable rower, smith, leg press, leg extension, leg curl, calf raise, lat pull down, seated row, cable fly. (All leg machines are the olympic bar plate loaded type not pins.)

Machines I avoid like the plague would include all arm curl machines, bench press, chest press, shoulder press. All of these things can be done alot more effectively and correctly with free weights.

.logic.

Runfree

That looks quite good logic. Can agree very much on the type of machines your using. Free weights aren't the best for ure legs but then again you can't do everything with them. I mainly use it for the upperbody

• Chest
• shoulders
• arms(upper and forearm)
• back

Well there ya go thats what i mainly use it for.

Jak

Machine weights can compliment training at a higher level, but at a serious level that is all - free weights allow for far more development in my experience.

As for free weights not being the best for your legs ... you are very much mistaken. There is no better exercise than Free Squatting .. in fact it is possibly the best all round strength and growth exercise there is.*

JAK.

*Given proper technique - which again, not many people use, most folk jack up the weight and just bend their knees a tiny bit, which is an utter waste of time.

Runfree

With free squatting I take it you mean squats with free weights.
I usually use the smith rack for this as we haven't got a proper weight bar for this so I picked the next best thing.

Anyway free weights give you a good balance too.

The'real'Guvnor

IMO the smith machine is a bad idea where legs are concerned. The path of movement is not natural for ,ost people and will invariably end up smoking your knees. If you cannot do regular squats go for dumbbell squats and lunges instead.

HTH

Runfree

Hey Guv,

How do you find it that you are smoking up your knees. I have no problems squatting using the Smith Machine.

logic1

Originally posted by Runfree
Hey Guv,
I have no problems squatting using the Smith Machine.

Not right now maybe but how long have u been using it for and with what kind of weight?

.logic.

Runfree

Well Ive been doing it now for about 6 months and I easily squat my own bodyweight(10 stone). But if I want I can do much more. When I first started I checked how much I could do and I squatted 15 stone.

Ah well I still stick with my squats

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

The'real'Guvnor

Runfree - It depends on what you call a squat. When you are down as far as you go are your hamstrings touching your calves? If not then you are doing partials.

If you squat your torso 'must' do it's natural lean forward and this is removed on the SM therefore forcing you into an unnatural position and anything unnatural in relation to free weights is bad news.


SM is widely regarded as a knee killer.

How much should you squat?
First you must squat deep - as in close to leaving a brown stain on the floor. 2 x bw is the minimum and any decent squatter would do 3 x bw.

Benching 1 x BW is easy for a man. Make it 1.5 and it is a reasonable target but some of us are close to 2 x bw.

Runfree

when I squat I make sure my knees are bent 90 degrees.

And I think i should take it easy with squatting to heavy though cause I have had back problems in the past(before I started going to the gym). Well I squat about 1.25 x BW and do the same for benching.

Well Im still working on my gym plan. Well wont start that until xmas is over

Benbaz

Originally posted by The'real'Guvnor
Runfree - It depends on what you call a squat. When you are down as far as you can go are your hamstrings touching your calves? If not then you are doing partials.

.

As I've said in previous threads, I'm not doing weight training for that long so my next question is open to criticism.......I've come to understand that doing what Guv suggested when doing Squats, i.e. "When you are down as far as you can go, are your hamstrings touching your calves"
is VERY bad news for your knees???

From looking at various sites on the net and from what my instructor has told me, if when squatting you go down too far it puts too much strain on your Quads as they strecth over your knees therefore in time, resulting in damage to the knees???
As I've said, I 'm no expert myself but I'd be interested in what anybody else has to say on the matter.

B.

Runfree

Well I was talking to a gym instructor in my gym and asked about the squats.

He told me if you go all the way down is bad for you. he said what i was doing is right. bend your knees 90degrees and make sure the bottom of ure leg(foot to knee) is perpendicular to the ground. and when you do your squat the upper leg(knee to hip is horizontal with the floor.

That is the proper way.

Thank you.

The'real'Guvnor

Originally posted by Runfree
Well I was talking to a gym instructor in my gym and asked about the squats.

He told me if you go all the way down is bad for you. he said what i was doing is right. bend your knees 90degrees and make sure the bottom of ure leg(foot to knee) is perpendicular to the ground. and when you do your squat the upper leg(knee to hip is horizontal with the floor.

That is the proper way.

Thank you.

You and you're instructor are incorrect. The shearing force on your knee at parallel is immense and this is precisely the point where you do not want to stop. The number of informed and intelligent gym instructors in Ireland is very small and if you add into the equation instructors who actually train it is even less. It is not good to pass of his piece meal information as verbatim as you only serve to propagate the myth.

Let's look at this from a real life perspective - if going below parallel is bad for you does this only hold true if you are in a vertical plane? What about all the rowers who go well below what is parallel 20-30 times a minute for upto 180 minutes a day. The force exerted every time is 300+ lbs. What about cyclists? What about skiers? The list goes on and on.

You say you go to parallel? Are you certain? I can hazard a guess you are about 6-10 inches above parallel.

For the record parallel is when your hip joint is level with your knee.

Have a read of this: http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=23

This is a proper squat: http://www.drsquat.com/images/fred-tom.jpg

http://www.nflcflfutures.com/NFLCFLFuturesImages02/fitness1105_2.jpg

http://www.deepsquatter.com/images/01natsopener.jpg

I can keep these coming. You either squat proper or you might as well not bother and going to what some poorly qualified, inexperienced gym instructor says is 'parallel' is pretty much a waste of time and leads to more injuries as people load more weight onto the bar.

I have seen rugby players squatting with 450lbs for their partials and when they tried to take a weight all the way down into the hole they could just about manage 250-275.

Runfree

Originally posted by The'real'Guvnor

You say you go to parallel? Are you certain? I can hazard a guess you are about 6-10 inches above parallel.

For the record parallel is when your hip joint is level with your knee.

Yes, I do go parallel. Like I said from foot to knee is perpendicular to the ground(at a right angle(90 Degrees)) and from the knee to the hip is horizontal(parallel to the ground(therefore bending your knees at 90 degrees)), did you want my draw a diagram????

Have a read of this: http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=23

This is a proper squat: http://www.drsquat.com/images/fred-tom.jpg

http://www.nflcflfutures.com/NFLCFLFuturesImages02/fitness1105_2.jpg

http://www.deepsquatter.com/images/01natsopener.jpg

Looked at the first webpage and the second(with the picture).
I dont see any type of squat in the SQUATTING VARIATIONS box that you are reffering to. Would you mind explaining this?? Not being smart but if you are right then I want to make sure why I cant see any articles on it.
All I am aware of is that im doing teh Olympic Squat from what I can see. The explenation is at follows:
also called "High Bar Squats" or "Bodybuilding Squats" – hip angle near 90 degrees and knee angle acute place stress on quads

logic1

Originally posted by Runfree
did you want my draw a diagram????

Snide and abusive comments towards someone who is obviously more knowledgeable on a subject that you are is neither clever nor appreciated here. We're all here to learn and in the world of weight training there are too many myths and half truths been floated by would be "personal trainers" already without more cropping up here. There's a few good people now using this board with the welcome addition of The Guv'Nor. Maybe if you listen real well to these people you just might learn something.

Looked at the first webpage and the second(with the picture).
I dont see any type of squat in the SQUATTING VARIATIONS box that you are reffering to. Would you mind explaining this??

The picture provided: http://www.drsquat.com/images/fred-tom.jpg clearly shows the correct form for a squat as The Guv'Nor has pointed out.

Not being smart but if you are right then I want to make sure why I cant see any articles on it.

Actually you are trying to be smart and it just doesn't suit you.

All I am aware of is that im doing teh Olympic Squat from what I can see. The explenation is at follows:
also called "High Bar Squats" or "Bodybuilding Squats" – hip angle near 90 degrees and knee angle acute place stress on quads

Did you convenientally leave out the rest of the explanation:

ONLY for bodybuilding training (too stressful on the knees for other uses)

In essence go big and go deep cause in the hole nobody can hear you scream.

.logic.

Runfree

making a point there. His advise is welcome as a matter of fact all advise is welcome but like you said there is so many myths going about i don't know which ones to believe

logic1

Originally posted by Runfree
making a point there. His advise is welcome as a matter of fact all advise is welcome but like you said there is so many myths going about i don't know which ones to believe

Sorry if my post was a bit strongly worded but there's two people on boards I'd have total confidence in and look to for advice. Jayk and The Guvnor.

Anything these two guys say you can trust to be fact.

Some people pay good money for the advice they give here for free

.logic.

Runfree

Thanx logic

Well Thats all I need to know. It was strong worded but sometimes it has to be when you try and get a point across because I know i done that it my my post where i ask guv if i needed to draw him a diagram.

Well Ive just checked out another site(the pumping station it is in the links thread i just posted it up there) and it showed how to the squat anyway. click the link. please tell me thats right.

Well my apologies for doubting u Guvnor

logic1

Here's a good guide:

http://www.theministryoffitness.com/mof/library/anims/squat.htm

.logic.

Runfree

ok im requesting a barbell.

I can only use smith machine cause that is the best thing to do squats with. got a squat machine but it is useless.

The'real'Guvnor

Originally posted by Runfree
Thanx logic

Well Thats all I need to know. It was strong worded but sometimes it has to be when you try and get a point across because I know i done that it my my post where i ask guv if i needed to draw him a diagram.

Well Ive just checked out another site(the pumping station it is in the links thread i just posted it up there) and it showed how to the squat anyway. click the link. please tell me thats right.

Well my apologies for doubting u Guvnor

No need to apologise. The picture is not correct. The gentleman is about 6-8inches above what would be classed a real squat. The picture with Tom Platz and Fred Hatfield shows proper depth.

Parallel is when hip socket is in line with knee this means your hamstrings and butt are well below the level of your knee and even at this go 2-3 inches lower and you are there.

Runfree

Thanks Guv,

Well finished work in 10 minutes and then get some food and off to the gym.

Well porbably try my new squats today.

Hope you know im not trying to be a "know it all" cause i know i dont know it all.

The'real'Guvnor

Originally posted by Runfree
Thanks Guv,

Well finished work in 10 minutes and then get some food and off to the gym.

Well porbably try my new squats today.

Hope you know im not trying to be a "know it all" cause i know i dont know it all.

I'm very easy going, virtually nothing that happens or is said online will get by blood pressure moving north. Debate is useful. Never be afraid to question advice given to you. I do and it pays off.

Runfree

Originally posted by The'real'Guvnor
I'm very easy going, virtually nothing that happens or is said online will get by blood pressure moving north. Debate is useful. Never be afraid to question advice given to you. I do and it pays off.

ok will do.

sound_wave

hey all..just reading the post and very interested in the debate on squats..so i mwent and tried the gov's method..simply unbelieveable never had i felt that burn before doing squats:eek: !! the sites were a v.interesting read too..thanks lads..think ill become a regular here!!

Runfree

Good to here that sound_wave

I welcome you