Curious about religion

lbgilchrist

I'm new to this forum ... I'm an American. I'm a web editor and live in Minneapolis. And if it helps to pigeonhole me ... I'm a baby boomer. Pleased to meet you all.

My question is about religion in Ireland and throughout Europe ... or perhaps attitudes toward religion and church-going (which are really two different things, I know).

Pardon if I ramble, but here are few little random ideas and perceptions behind my curiosity ...

- I worked part time in the Netherlands a few years ago and it was my distinct impression that nobody goes to church in Europe and few bother to even have religious beliefs. I saw ancient churches surrounded by chain link fences because while nobody needed them for religious purposes, they still wanted to preserve them. I remember my boss, who was from England, being shocked that I still went to mass. Is it the same in Ireland?

- Now don't get me wrong, I only go to church because my wife wants to go, but I do maintain a sort of half-baked, modified catholic-sort-of beliefs. And most of my friends, whom I would also describe as liberal Democrats also regularly attend church ... I think a lot of that comes from wanting to put structure and some sort of moral absolutes into your and your children's lives

- From watching movies and television shows -- mostly made in the UK ... so I'm sure you see them too -- I've learned that any character who is identified as "religious" will soon be invariably revealed as at least unhinged and probably homicidal. (Of course many Hollywood movies contain the same message.)

- I've also developed the impression that most people "over there" arrived at their decision that church and religion were meaningless to them while they were still relatively young ... in other words basing their decisions on relatively "childish" views and understandings of the world and religion. No offense intended here, but I notice there's no board called "religion" ... just humanities.

- I really don't care what anyone believes, but it's occurred to me that Europe might bear some of t the brunt of any all-out Islamic-counterstrike, if it comes to that. It'd be kind of ironic (huge understatement there) if people in Europe don't feel particularly Christian.

- I know I'm making the classic American mistake of generalizing about vast groups of people ... but I really am curious about this and what you all have to say on this.

So what's up with religion in Ireland and Europe, anyway?

Mr E

The way the catholic church is going at the moment, it will be the equivalent of a cult in 100 years (with just a few obsessive followers).

I've definitely noticed a drop in church attendance over the last few years. I only go about once every 2 or 3 months myself.

To be honest, I think mass is a waste of time. I believe in God, I believe that there is something better when we die, but I don't believe in listening to dithering old priests recycle the same rubbish every week. As long as I have my faith, thats all that matters.

The extent of my beliefs is a different matter, though. I believe the bible to be a book of chinese whispers, where the actual stories and history of catholicism have been so distorted through mistranslation and embellishments that they are like tall tales now.

I'd be interested in hearing other people opinions....

- Dave.

azezil

I cannot speak for ‘all of Ireland’, and certainly not all of Europe cause not all European countries are alike, if any, I only speak of my local area.

Attendance at my local church has dropped off over the years, it hasn't yet reached a point where one'd consider closing the church however, it still plays an active roll in the local community.

Personally i don't attend church because I don't believe in God, i did in my youth but after many years of consideration I came to the conclusion it just wasn't for me. I do think the church has a role to play in society, I remember growing up and quiet literally getting 'the fear of god' put in me so that I’d behave. That’s all well and good if that's how you want to teach your children right from wrong but I’d prefer to use other methods on my own (if i ever have them).

I cannot explain why church attendance is dwindling, in my opinion some the factors may be:
- people are better educated science can provided answer which in times past may have been attributed to god and as such for example encouraged people to pray for change.
- the over all structure hasn't changed, society has changed dramatically, the church has not... the same stories are told and (in catholic churches) in the same boring manor.
- youthful rebellion (:)), apposing parents beliefs, going out to find one's own.
- the global village, people are exposed to new ideas and beliefs, greater variety, not all of it so dull!

zenith

My take on this is that many will profess to a belief in God, but that being a regularly-participating member of a Church is no longer seen as necessary to leading a full life.

This is not the same as the community turning away entirely from God, but in another generation or so it'll be impossible to tell the difference. Religion will be seen as an irrelevance, or an anachronism.

I'm writing this as an athiest, by the way, but I don't believe that this has clouded my opinion of the matter.

The Gopher

Until the late 1960s Ireland was in some ways like a christian version of Iran and taliban period Afghanistan,if not as extreme.In those days,particularly in the countryside,the preists told the people what to do and the people obeyed them.If the priest told the congregation not to shop in the cheapest shop in town because it was owned by protestants there wouldnt be a person using it.
Unmarried pregnant women had the choice of either runing away to England pennyless with their child or giving it to the church,to be brought up in orphanages where children were abused by priests.The church even influenced government and their influence partly was a reason why Ireland was one of the most backward countries in Europe(the church even used their clout to oppose free healthcare for children,undoubtely because the doctors were bribing them to do this.)
The main reasons that church attendance has dropped in this country are
There is now more to do on a Sunday
People work longer hours nowadays-Sunday is for lying in,not getting up for mass
Some find it hypocritical to follow an organisation which preaches against adultery and promiscuity and supports the upholding of traditional family values while at the same time being engaged in the hiding and covering up of pervert priests
People are too disgusted by the manic hold that the church has on some elderly people,who they use for money
The public resent the fact that despite the fact the church has god knows how many millions stored away for the bishops they are asked every year to pay this and that to the church
It isnt that I dont believe in god-it is that there is so much bullsh1t in the hierarchy of the organisation puroporting to represent him.

sunbeam

Just one small point: historically in my small impoverished corner of the west of Ireland giving a child born out of wedlock away was almost unheard of and considered a greater shame than actually having the child in the first place (although unmarried mothers were still denounced from the alter). Such children were typically brought up within their extended families-I have several neighbours who grew up in such circumstances. I never heard the term ‘Magdalen Laundry’ until I went to college in the early 90s. I’m not denying that Irishwomen were often forced to give away their kids-or that this may have been the norm in other areas in times past. I’m certainly not suggesting that life in my village was in anyway idyllic either-far from it!

Although I believe in some kind of higher power I haven’t gone to mass since I left school and don’t consider myself a Catholic. Amongst other things I just can’t handle their present day attitude towards women. I accept that their are many good, well-meaning people in the church-it is just not the right place for me.

lbgilchrist

I'm really impressed with the thoughtfulness of your responses ... keep 'em coming. I was concerned that people would just think my question totally irrelevant and ignore it.

To Dave: Wouldn't it be interesting if we had the straight stuff in the Bible, without all those versions of what happened, why and what it means for everyone to misinterpret. I know bible scholars refer to certain parts of the new testament as coming from Q (or something like that) meaning they believe them to be taken from an original source (now mostly lost) they sometimes call the sayings of Jesus. Think how much of the crap that's been done in the name of Christianity could have been avoided if it was all laid out clear and simple. But then again, maybe it's that very tendency to be all things to all people that made it the perfect new religion to glom onto the Roman Empire and spread everywhere the legions went. Except the legions never made it to Ireland ... hmmm.

To azezil: I agree the church has done much to damage itself ... especially lately. They just don't seem to get how angry people are ... I see Cardinal Law is resigning today, he'll hide out in the Vatican for the rest of his life, I suppose. While I was growing up, I faced a series of sadistic nuns, lay teachers and priests up through ninth grade. Only by transferring to the public high school was I able to discover the world (not to mention girls, beer, and the occasional joint) in all it's glory. It was only years later when I took another look at it as an adult that I began to see value in religion. But mass ... well even though I still go, I find it deadly dull. One thing I'll say for protestants is that some of their preachers really know how put together a sermon.

To zenith: Who knows what the future will bring? No one really seems to be looking ahead (at least over here) at what kind of world we should be working toward. George Bush the elder used to mock that kind of thinking by calling it the "vision thing". His son offers us tax cuts (despite record deficits) and war instead. Of course the multinationals all have big plans for us and our money.

To gopher: I think, for lots of folks, church attendance used to be only social event of the weekend. When I was a kid, I my grandparents (good tea-totaling Methodists) only went to town to buy seed corn, sell milk or go to church. (Of course, I've heard that my German/American Catholic in-laws made much better use of the local bar in the old days.) But practically everything we do now has a social aspect so I suppose you could now see going to church as some sort of refuge from too much society. I don't know ... I'm not sure what role it would play in my life if left to my own devices.

To sunbeam: Good to hear that despite the denouncements from the alter, women stayed in your community with their children. We hear so many horrible things about those laundries. I've learned to rarely share my horror stories of my catholic education with protestants because they just take such delight in having all their prejudices reinforced. A little story ... I only heard about this years later, but apparently one of my classmate's father actually went into the see our grade school principle and warned her to NEVER lay another hand on his children again or he'd be back! Man I wish my Dad had done that! Of course so you have all the facts, I saw this particular father beat one of his sons (not my friend, however) with a belt for not doing his chores and it seemed to be routine matter in this family (9 kids and the father wasn't even catholic)... so things are never cut and dried.

Added soon afterwards: Yikes! I just reread the above and I talked way too much about my school days ... sorry. Must look like I still have issues ... and I really dont!

Mr E

I went to see The Magdalene Sisters a couple of weeks ago in the cinema. I didn't know much about the laundries, and I was shocked at what I saw. The laundries were like concentration camps (for want of a better comparison). What shocked me even more than the laundries was the attitude of the adults, before the girls were sent to the laundry. Having kids out of wedlock, being raped by your cousin, or even flirting with boys was enough to get you sent here. And the parents didn't give a shit. People forced to go through that are going to lose their faith, without a doubt. And loss of faith is contageous. You don't have faith, then you aren't going to pass that on to your kids.

Azezil - another reason attendance is dwindling is down to less respect for priests. Only a tiny handful molested boys, but they are the ones we hear about. And the evil ones tarnish the reputation of ALL priests. Priests were revered and respected, but alot of that respect has gone out the window. Its sad really, because 99.9999% of priests are ordinary, decent human beings.

- Dave.

DeVore

I've been a snowboarder for over a dozen years now. I'll explain why thats relevant in a minute.

I'm agnostic which basically translates as "I dont know". More accturately I would say "we arent equiped to know what 'God' is. Our brains just arent wired in a way that can understand it".

I havent been inside what you term a "church" since I was 18. I was educated by the Jesuits who gave me a great education... sufficient that I questioned the man-made construct that is the Catholic Church. Kinda ironic, neh?

I believe in something though, I cant explain it to you but I honestly feel it. You say you dont think people go to Church any more... well in a way I do.
You should try sitting on the very top of a snow covered mountain, 5000 feet up looking down on creation and hearing nothing. Theres something very powerful about that, its very still, its very quiet and its very humbling. And I'm not a very humble person
The view is breathtaking and places you in perspective. Not as you might think I mean... as an insignificant speck on the side of a vast mountain... but as part of a bigger entity. A much more profound and older system then anything man has concocted...

That is my church.

Thats where I can commune directly with my "God".
And you know what... I dont need no feckin' switchboard-operator.

DeV.

lbgilchrist

Dev

I agree ... there's a certain divinity to nature. I had my breath taken away just by the swirl of autumn leaves across my path.

But ... and I don't mean this condescendingly... all two or three whatever billion of us can't have that same experience whenever we need it.

If people everywhere still lead lives of quiet desperation, does/should organized religion play a part in building a sense of community and structure? Muslims (at least Muslim men) seem to derive comfort from their extremely structured belief. In our culture where the wealthy, the famous (no matter what their intrinsic value), Hollywood, advertising tend to lead public perceptions and who can afford frequent trips to beautiful vistas, do a disservice to the mass of humanity by trashing organized religion in the name of "hipness"? Long question ... sorry!

I'm going to sound like a real snob here. but I think the mass of people want to live quiet, orderly lives ... but that natural state is constantly under attack by the restless few who have to have more ... more power, more excitement, more money, more stuff. There are rare beautiful places in the world that used to be almost inaccessible ... just getting to them might be the accomplishment of a lifetime. Now everyone feels like they have the right and perhaps obligation to climb say ... El Capitan in Yosemite ... what does that experience mean after a while?

Wouldn't it be simpler if people believed that just living a good life represented a great accomplishment? And if they had a system (religion???) that assured them that they were.

Just some thoughts.

- Lee

(Let's face it ... the fact that we can all sit quietly in our cars, as we fling two tons of steel towards one another. at 75 miles an hour, passing within inches of each other, and not run screaming into the forest ... means we're all quite insane.)

gandalf

Hmmmm if by religious do I go to Church and hold dear to the ideals etc that they teach then the answer is no. Like Dev I haven't gone to a church (unless its a Funeral or Wedding) since I was around 18. The reason I felt that the majority that went were hypocrites, they talked about Christianity and sharing with others for a hour a week and spent the rest of the time trying to screw each other over outside the church.

I consider myself religious from the point of view that there is a higher entity or being behind everything and I believe that there is some form of afterlife, what it is I don't know.

Church attendences are dimishing for a variety of reasons I suspect. Similar weirdos to me with their own ideas of God, people disallusioned by the abuse scandals coming out all the time, people who don't seem to need religion in their lives and many many other reasons. Also in Ireland whereas the church in past was the focal point of the community with the urbanisation of the country this is no longer the case.

Also bear in mind here that I am single and have no children of my own. I will probably change when I realise that my children (if I ever have any!) need to have a start that I did and then let them as I did come to their own position. I have to acknowledge that my religious education has helped me develop my own moral values and as I am happy with the way I've turned out so far I have to credit them for that

OK I'll stop rambling now

Gandalf.

DeVore

lbgilchrist, I dont require middle men to talk to my "God". I Certainly dont need pocket-lining hypocrites who are working a "brand".


Morals =!= religion. You can be a moral person and be an athesist. Do we need a sense of community in this world? Absolutely.
Is that missing today? Yes. Is the catholic church the answer? No.

I've been searching for something like that for a number of years, Boards is a good example of part of that but it has no moral aspect to it, which is fine... It fulfils a part of me that enjoys communities greatly, but its not here as a moral guardian or some form of instruction in how to live your life!
I'm certainly uninterested in telling others how they should behave but I'm very interested in developing that in myself.

My personal view is that everyone already knows whats right and wrong, we just choose not to listen to it sometimes because its easier then facing the hard decisions.

In the end of the day I believe that if nothing you do matters, the only thing that matters is what you do.

You might like to read this post too, because you are touching on a topic that I'm finding is becoming more and more important in my life.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=678587#post678587

We do need people with backbone, we do need moral communities, what we DONT need are communities set on dictating those morals to everyone around them and enforcing them on others who may find their own paths...


DeV.

Stephen

I was raised as a Catholic by my parents, but I decided for myself that it wasn't for me when I was about 16. Until that point i was pretty much forced to attend mass every Sunday by my mother - who is a committed catholic. I still have blazing arguments about my rejection of religion with her from time to time - especially around Christmas.I don't believe in any supreme being/god/whatever you like to call it. I think you're born, you live and you die. That's it, no afterlife.

I'm 20 years of age now, if that makes any difference to you.

You spoke of cardinal law resigning because of the abuse scandals in the US - its a pity cardinal connell over here isn't that smart.

One final thing that really vexes me about catholicism is some of its followers - like the ignorant filth that threatened Colm O' Gorman when he went public with his allegations of sexual abuse by fr Sean Fortune in the Wexford area. - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73006

DeVore

I guess I have a similar history to you Stephen... though I'm 32 and time changes some things. The effort needed to reject the structure of the church is so great that sometimes absolutism comes into play (ie: you start to think there is *nothing* spiritual in the world).
Now, I havent found Jesus or anything and I'm not at all sure theres an afterlife (at least not in the sense we understand it) but I *have* noticed that as a young fella I was absolutely closed to the notion of spirituality because, well.... that way lay catholicism.
I started reading the other great religions and found things that resonanted with me but I still dislike and distrust "middle men" however there are two very distinct things mixed up in one in religions:

The religion itself and the morality of the people who follow it.
I'm gonna start another thread on that though as I dont want to hijack this one.

lbgilchrist, whats your view on all this?

DeV.

Mr E

To paraphrase my favourite comedian Bill Hicks .... Who cares what your beliefs are as long as you never ever harm another human being?

(OK, he was talking about alcohol and drugs, but the sentiment still applies)

- Dave.

lbgilchrist

Hi Dev,

Hey call me Lee.

When I first saw you're post, I'd just come back from mass and as usual I was totally pissed off by it (mass that is). So I decided to wait a while before responding.

Anyway ... I've had a similar experience. When I was younger, I really hated priests and nuns and all those sheep who marched off to church every Sunday. I wasn't even interested in debating or discussing it, it was just irrelevant. Eastern religions also seemed to offer a totally "other" view of eternity or whatever you want to call it.

I've always had this need for fairness. You look at things that are linked (although not necessarily in the doctrine) to a religion that you decide are ridiculous ... the cult of Mary, mythical or nationalistic saints (Joanne of Arc???), the pope as emperor, blatant hypocrisy, rosaries, image of god as loving but stern white haired white male, doctor murdering anti-abortionist. Yet why should I be so willing to gloss over some of the more problematic elements that are linked at least by population to eastern religions ... Hindus murdering Moslems and vice-versa, Japanese militarism and barbarism during WWII, the caste system. So I decided at one point that to understand the true value of a religion, you have to look beyond the doctrines and understand how it affected the people who practiced it. Certainly on a theoretical level, all religions have something that resonates within us. But what affect does it have on the actual practitioners. I used to work with an American (non-Asian) Buddhist who told me that when all the refuges arrived after the end of the Viet Nam war, his branch (or whatever their called) made an effort to contact them and provide a continuation of their nominal religion. but he told me they just weren't interested. In fact a lot of them became Baptists!

Then, I happened to work with the great guy, a graphic designer, who also happened to a born again Christian. He was the opposite of the stereotype, he didn't push anything, but he didn't deny anything either. He was a great guy and happy guy and being the spiritual pilgrim I am, I envied him his contentment. I had no interest in that born-again crap, but I looked at various protestant denomination and was ultimately appalled by the whole accepting Jesus as my personal savior/but it doesn't matter if I do good works concept... (I know I know really nothing of real Protestantism, but life is too short to worry about that.) But it did kind of reopen the whole idea of Christianity to me and once again I made a shift away from focusing on how it was practiced and rituals to what to the basis of the beliefs and stripped of priestly corruption and pomposity, Vatican bureaucracy, and sheep-like devotion and tribal superstition, it seemed to fit my needs.

Maybe it worked out that way because it certainly makes life easier for me ... since my wife has never needed to question her own commitment to Catholicism. And arriving at an accommodation lessens one more source of stress between us. However, she has to pay the price of me often returning from mass with a load resentment based on past experience, boredom and dissatisfaction

So I am at the point, where I think it would be great to have a priestless, popeless Catholicism. I still think we'd need a resident expert to help explain the Bible (which is pretty complicated and opaque at times) when we were growing up, but if done correctly each person who then have the ability to make his or her own way spiritually. Maybe what's left isn't even Christianity anymore ... I don't know.

Oh and I'd trash the old testament and the abomination called the Book of Revelations (what a load hallucinogenic crap!)

This may not all add up, but it's all I have time for now ... got to go to my son's piano recital.

- Lee

DeVore

Hi Lee.

Call me DeV (actually I'm Tom... but people often call me DeV anyway, so I respond to both ).


Well Lee, I have to say "wow". We're half a planet away from each other and we're thinking the same things...

Wouldnt it be nice to have a community where moral (ie: decent not fvcking others over, helping the less fortunate) living was supported and where you could be free to define your OWN interaction with God, but with the human added bollox elements removed.

I dont think you should go to mass to placate your wife. Actually I dont think your wife should want you to go to church just to placate her but then I neither know you nor am a marraige counselor and I s'pose if it works for you then *shrug*.

Whenever I've been in church I just cruise it and dont think too much about it.

I'm looking though I may be looking for a while though.

DeV.

clipper

hey there,
I am in complete agreement with DeVore; you'll find my church in my sig.
it is truly an incredible thing to be part of this universe. while i can't begin to comprehend what it all means, it is certainly both humbling and amazing all at once. i think everyone should be free to choose for themselves what god is, and indeed if he exists at all. for me, organised religion is one of the most awful, insulting ideas i can think of. i believe most of us are compassionate and intelligent enough to be good people, to live good lives and to be fulfilled without having to be scared/herded into it.
that said, if you're someone who needs a structure to your beliefs, that is a comfort you are entitled to, and i don't wish to belittle or insult anyone. as i said already, it should be everyone's right to choose their beliefs, as long as no one else gets hurt.
i think the reasons for the decline in committment to catholicism in this country are pretty obvious and have been dealt with already.
that's my meagre 2c

DeVore

Clipper, its nice to know I'm not alone

You might find this discussion (which has oddly come to run parallel with this one) interesting:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=680185#post680185

DeV.

comet

Church attendances are down big time on say the 1950s level where everyone and their dog went to mass but the truth is today in most towns in Ireland churches will be full certainly for 12:00 mass and more especially in rural areas. A cult in 100 years time, absolute rubbish. Its withstood much harder times than this over 2000 years. So yeah the church has done a lot to piss people off but people are still attending mass. Every church will be full Christmas day with families and their kids. Whatever mass is to people maybe its just getting in out of the rain and daydreaming but at least Its a point of contact, even if it makes you think about your life or God for a minute once a week

neuro-praxis

The Catholic Churches are dwindling but there's a revival elsewhere.

The independent churches in Ireland are beginning to burst at the seams. My own church in Lucan is so full on Sundays that we're branching out and planting a daughter church in Maynooth to deal with the traffic.

63,000 people convert to Christianity every day.

The Christian community is huge and people don't know about it - there are Christian rock music festivals held all over the country in the summer where approximately 2-3000 people aged between 16 and 25 go, there are university Christian Union conferences held three times a year...the numbers in the Christian Union in Maynooth have quadrupled this year, the Queen's University in Belfast have over 400 born again Christians.

Four of my friends have converted to Christianity in the last 6 months.

Club Viva in Dublin holds dance music nights run by Christian DJs, the Trinity Christian Union are out every week in Temnple Bar talking to people about faith and offering free coffee.

At least 6 of my friends were on missions trips combatting poverty in Eastern Europe, Africa and South-East Asia this summer with their various churches.

People are mistaken if they think faith is dead.

The Catholic Church is gonna have to change real quick if it wants to survive, but there are more people devoting their lives to God at this point in history than ever before.

DeVore

Neuro I dont mean to start a row (I *really* dont) but I need to ask this:

At least 6 of my friends were on missions trips combatting poverty in Eastern Europe, Africa and South-East Asia this summer with their various churches.

Do they prosletyse while they are on charity trips? Are the needy preached to while they are fed?


Dont get me wrong, I admire anyone who takes time out of their life to help others, but its tainted if theres some hidden reason for doing it imho.

I donate to Concern because I'm not the kind of person who can just up an go help people, but I was quite concerned that they were using the money to preach at the same time. I've been convinced enough that they arent but it still concerns me (no pun!)

DeV.

popinfresh

The Catholic church is just evil. Althogh it was supposedly started by the original christians around Jesus time, they inprovised their beleifs to attract more people to join. Don't quote me on this now but you know the way there is a sun behind crosses, it is said that this was added in round the 4th century to suit the Celtic pagins who worshiped the sun. Plus, if there is a god, do you honestly think he would back an organisation that caused all the Crusades, and who tried to cover up paedophilia?? If people want to beleive in god all they need is a bible. The church was through history just like an evil empire. The sooner they go bankrupt and have to close down the better. And cmon, wtf is up with the pope, he looks stoned all the time.

DeVore

If people want to beleive in god all they need is a bible.

Um... my "God" doesnt have a publisher...

DeV.

lbgilchrist

The independent churches in Ireland are beginning to burst at the seams. My own church in Lucan is so full on Sundays that we're branching out and planting a daughter church in Maynooth to deal with the traffic.

Everyone should be free to worship or not as they please, but this description reminds me of some of the mega churches we've seen going up over here .... especially in the suburbs. They're usually called "Grace" church or some such thing, and are "non-denominational" but are most close to Baptist. They are usually based around a charismatic preacher and put on quite a show with professional level choirs, high production values, huge budgets, and a feel good message. All very popular with CEOs and Republicans, which in turn attracts the networking yuppies. In all fairness they usually devote a fair amount of time to community programs and they do seem to meet some need in lots of people that the traditional churches can't.

But they keep getting bigger and bigger to the point where some people end up having to watch the service on monitors. And the congregations usually refuse to be split up into reasonably-sized daughter churches ... they are so committed to the personality of the main preacher -- so they raise millions to build a new, bigger church. Are these to the glory of god or to man's ego?

Four of my friends have converted to Christianity in the last 6 months.

Converted from what? Certain groups have nonchalantly appropriated the word "Christian" for their exclusive and carefully proscribed use. Christian is a term that provides some sense of unity and common ground for otherwise fractured communities and alienated individuals and should remain available to all.

Lee

DeVore

Damnit Lee, stop it you're scaring me now...!

That sounds too much like Max Headroom or Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep with the monitors.

The "Attracting yuppies to network" bit is too freaky...


"Hold you're hand up to the Television!"


DeV.

lbgilchrist

networking yuppies

Yes it does conjure up disturbing but strangely compelling images.

Lee

Shinji

Quick bit of background to my own beliefs.

I was brought up in a fairly religious family; mass every Sunday, father sang in the church choir (as did I when I was young; I was also an altar boy for a while), parish priest was a friend of the family (and remains in my opinion one of the most pleasant and kindly gentlemen I've ever had the pleasure to meet). I was educated in a secondary school which had been run by the Patrician brothers, but was now entirely made up of lay teachers (I think my father was the second lay principal of the school), while maintaining a strong religious link.

I didn't have any negative experiences of religion; all the priests I ever met were good men, and I still have great affection for the elderly nun who ran the pre-school I went to as a very small child, and continued to take great interest in the progress of all her students as they went through later education and into their working lives. My decisions concerning religion had nothing to do with the deeply unpleasant revelations which have since been forthcoming about the Church in Ireland.

I simply accepted religion and churchgoing as something that happened, until I was old enough to actually understand what it was about - belief in God, in Jesus, and in all the baggage that comes with it; and at that point I said "but that's silly!" and just as simply as I'd accepted it previously as a part of life, I realised that these concepts seemed ridiculous to me and that I didn't believe in them. I didn't lose my faith; I didn't rebel; I didn't have an inverse Road to Damascus moment; I didn't drift away. I just reached the point where I was able to comprehend what I was being asked to accept by being a Christian, and discovered that I couldn't.

Of course, the next question for me was, why DO so many people accept religion then? Why doesn't everyone look at it, cock an eyebrow and go "you're kidding, right" when asked to believe in these concepts? Why do people who couldn't even watch the X-Files on TV because it was "too silly" sit and listen with serious expressions to readings from the Old Testament every Sunday morning?

So I read. I read the Bible; I read discussions on religion and histories of religion; I read about the occult, about other religions of the world (and found some which appealed to me far more than Christianity, but which I still couldn't believe in on a fundamental level) and I read about the roles of religion in the history of the world at large. Three things happened;

Firstly, I discovered nothing to change my mind. I found superstitions, I found myths, I found wonderful stories and some excellent humanitarian concepts; I found fascinating histories and I found some ideas and belief systems which disgusted me. But I didn't find faith in a single one of the books I read or the people I spoke to.

Secondly, I became an educated non-believer. My father was a well-educated man, as was his father before him, and both of them were religious; so if I was to reject their belief system, I had better be able to beat them in any argument about it by knowing more about it than they did.

Finally, I became an athiest rather than an agnostic. I don't claim not to be sure about he existence of God; I don't hedge my bets like Pascal; I genuinely, truly believe ("know" is too contentious a word, but that's closer to what I'd like to say) that there is no God, certainly not in the sense that any religion on this planet preaches.



I know I'm not alone in these beliefs, as I have met a great many like-minded people. I remain fascinated by religion; I love its symbolism, its history, and its power over the minds of men and women, even well-educated people. I am deeply, deeply saddened by some of the things it has done to the people of this planet, and by some of the things it is used to justify; and I am horribly frightened by the rising strength of quite fundamentalist religion - in the middle east, but even more so in America, where Christian fundamentalism is in many ways no less extreme and certainly no less frightening than Islamic fundamentalism is in the east.

Do I believe in anything beyond humanity? Nothing conscious; nothing quantifiable. We're born, we live as well as we can, and we die and are snuffed out; I believe that, but it's not depressing because I believe that this life can be a wonderful, amazing experience. I know exactly what Dev means about standing on a mountain top (and it doesn't need to be a mountain peak; it can be a beach on a stormy day, a forest in a shower of rain, a vista of hills and fields in bright sunshine...), and I feel the same awe... But I'm in awe of the complexity and grandeur of it all, the startling realisation of the insignificance of any human life in the grand scale of this planet (never mind this universe) and the sheer amount of knowledge I have yet to learn - and the even greater amount I will never know.

To me, this amazing garden is beautiful enough without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it, or pixies living in the toadstools.

(Er, that was all a bit longwinded. Coffee will do that to a man at 3am )

lbgilchrist

That was a really nice description of your journey. Sounds like you've found peace.

Lee

Mr E

Jeez, don't you people sleep?

Great read, Shinji. I enjoyed that.

- Dave.

davej

Religion was so important because it played many functional roles in society. However many other things have replaced the traditional role religion played and many of the functions it performed have become irrelevant.

For example, Sunday Mass was (amongst other things) a chance for people to catch up with each other about their weeks business and discuss topical issues etc. Nowadays with dormitory towns, telecommunications and disposable income Mass just doesn't seem so necessary.

Why do you think all of this stuff about abuse and corruption in the church is coming out now? Because it can come out.
It is not a coincidence that the socio-economic landscape of Ireland has been utterly changed in the last 10 years (the same 10 years that all of the scandals have arisen). Previously society needed the church much more than it does now; it was inconcievable that the scandals we hear about today could have come out even 15 years ago.

davej

Talliesin

you know the way there is a sun behind crosses, it is said that this was added in round the 4th century to suit the Celtic pagins who worshiped the sun

Yep, but we copied things from the Christians too, so it's not fair to accuse them of copying.

Xterminator

Hi,

Just wanted to add my thoughts.

Ive grown up in a family that was Catholic, but converted to the LDS (commly known as Mormons) when i was primary school age.

1 positive thing that came out of this was that I was sent to Protestant schools, from then on, where i found there was a great mix of religions. (As opposed to the mainline Catholic system). Growing up with friends who were Jews, Catholic, Protestant, and Mormons among others meant that i grasped their basic beliefs, but more importantly i was comfortabe with the concept that we could be friends, and be different.

Now I have lapsed from actively attending any organised church, but i do belive we have a benovelant creator, who allows us frre will, with all its consequences.

I experienced alienation in the area where i lived, where i was slagged for being different. (Nothing too extreme) This has meant that i understand what it is like to be alienated, and it is part of my personality thatr I will always sympathise with anyone being singled out or bullied, for any reason.
I think that experinces of religion will shape a lot of what we as poeple believe, or think. Different people will react differently, but I believe it is these experiences which cause us to form our own opinions.

This is probably whwere the catholic church fecked up.
Forcing people to go to church, insteed encouraging it. Emphasing negatives instead of positives. (Thou Shall nots always seemed to be emphasied , Not the THou Shall )
Forcing there docterine in every orifice available it seems (soory about the pun!).
Also the institution of the church seems to have become corrupt to the very top.

The great pity is that the message Christianity should have been giving out has been soured by association.
(For me that is love. Love is tolerant, patient, kindly etc.)

X

Talliesin

it was inconcievable that the scandals we hear about today could have come out even 15 years ago.

It's worse than that. They did come out 15 years ago; Paddy Doyle's The God Squad came out 13 years ago, which is close enough.

The scary thing is that these scandals did "come out" in the past, but were quickly forgotten again.

Consider the following written in 1947:

...where little children become a great army of child slavery in workshops, making money for the institutions that give them a little food, a little clothing, very little recreation and a doubtful education...We have punished the Nazis for their sins against society... I wonder what God's judgment will be with reference to those who hold the deposit of faith and who fail in their Godgiven stewardship of little children?

It's worth noting though that not only was this a case of horrific treatment of children by the Irish Roman Catholic Church, but also a case of an Irish Catholic Priest defending children. The author was Father Flanagan, famous as the founder of Boys Town (now Boys and Girls Town)

Beruthiel

I shall add my little bit..
brought up much the same as everyone here, strongly catholic parents, church every Sunday, they made us say the rosary every night. Both primary and secondary schools run by nuns who use their metre long wooden rulers on me regularly. All I felt by the time they had finished with me was fear and guilt.
By the time I was 16 I hated anything to do with the catholic church.
Not quite sure what I am now, as Dev said, we are mere specks who will be here for a miniscule amount of time compared to the rest of the universe.
I have decided my own morals.
Someone mentioned already the fact that having a child might make a difference. In fact when I had mine, I tried to find a school close by who did not teach any religion, they are almost impossible to find unless you are prepared to travel and they will always favour people in their own district.
So she went to a catholic school but things are different with teaching religion in school now and the fact I didn't push her into going to mass has helped her to grow without a huge religious pressure and she has a good set of morals for her age, I'm well pleased with her progress, I believe if you are brought up with discussion and imput from your parent, religion does not need to be used in your teachings.

Typedef

I'm an athiest.

Simply neither of my parents pay any real pretence to believing in god, yet to placate various factions within my family I went through the ritual of Communion and Confirmation (please don't tell me I'm a Catholic thanks), but in reality once I discovered logic and the burdon of proof, I realised that there was no conclusive, logical evaluable evidence to prove the existance of god.

I don't subscribe to the leap of faith ethos and up until I became involved in computers I would have been a sceptic agnostic in that I didn't believe in god, but didn't preclude the existance of such an entity.

Since then I have revised my view of the universe. Now I only believe what can be verified. Simply being told, something is so, is for me as a logical being, insufficient, I need evidence and I don't subscribe to the notion that begins with "But where did it all come from". Sorry bub, the burdon of evidence lies with you to prove God's existence, not mine to disprove it.

Morality, for me is subjective, as I tend to look at these things clinically in terms of the environment I was brought up in. In the Middle East my morality would be totally different from what it is in Ireland. Therefore morality is not something I define in terms of Religion nor religious pretext. All 'morality' for me is open to revision and the only real morality I feel I 'have' to subscribe to is that which is imposed by the State under threat of extraneous enforcement.

That said I subscribe to the notion that each and everything is a product of it's own envrionment, such that I try to 'remake the matrix as I see fit', or to put it another way, I try to shape the kind of world I would 'wish' to live in.

Nominally that means. "Be excellent to each other"

Typedef.

neuro-praxis

Yikes! I'll reply to all that in detail when I don't have a 2500 word essay due Friday.

[Edited for typos]

lbgilchrist

Beruthiel: Like you I grew up with an intense hatred for priests and nuns and parochial schools in general

So, when it came to pick out a school for my son we only looked at the public schools. We know they have their problems with drugs and violence, but there was one designated as the fine art/international school with things like Spanish immersion and plenty of extras for both advanced and remedial. Sounded great, and it was the closest one to our house (although still a few miles away). We applied, but were told at an open house that due to racial quotas there would be openings for only two white boys (with no already attending siblings) in his class ... so we should probably have a backup plan.

We put his name in at a couple of other school, and then out of desperation, we checked out the parochial school three blocks from our house. The principle wasn't even Catholic and of course, there were no nuns. We'd been attending the church that ran the school occasionally anyway. They didn't have any advanced or remedial programs, but they offered a relatively safe environment with a lot of parental involvement and good committed teachers. So we began to think quite favorably of it and eventually decided to send him there regardless.

Low and behold, we got the mailing with his public school assignment and it was the fine art/international school ... but the ship had sailed and we stuck with the parochial school. Since the parish pays half of the tuition for parishioners, we also got more involved in the church (well that's not the only reason ... but that's a different story.)

He's ready to start high school next year and he's gotten a good education at the parochial school, although due to budge restrictions not a great one. Another side affect is because the school was somewhat insulated from the realities of public education; we don't feel he'd be prepared to switch over to a public high school. So, he's going to continue onto a private Catholic high school. ($7,000/year ... geeech!)

If you've stuck with me this far in this long post, you probably have more patience than I do.

I guess my point is ... things change. What used to be black and white gets a gray (no hair pun intended) as you get older ... probably as much out of necessity as anything else. I don't mean this to sound all superior, but once you take responsibility for preparing someone for their life (i.e. children) a lot of your self-evolved philosophy gets replaced via a whole new set of concerns and realities. Let's face it ,all our principles are just theoretical until their tested.

Am I happy with the education he got? Not completely ... his class will never make it through algebra this year and that will put him a bit behind next year. Would I recommend it to anyone else? Only with reservations and a thorough explanation of the limitations. All of my friends have sent their kids through the public school and seem reasonable happy with the experience ... although a suburban friend tells me her son's 7th grade class (just his class mind you) has 800 kids in it! My son's has 30.

Bit of ramble ... sorry. I know you're "public" state? schools tend to be associated with a parish over there. What's that like? It's a difficult concept for me to understand ... is every school basically a catholic school?

- Lee

lbgilchrist

Morality, for me is subjective, as I tend to look at these things clinically in terms of the environment I was brought up in. In the Middle East my morality would be totally different from what it is in Ireland. Therefore morality is not something I define in terms of Religion nor religious pretext. All 'morality' for me is open to revision and the only real morality I feel I 'have' to subscribe to is that which is imposed by the State under threat of extraneous enforcement.

Typedef: Ahh...situational ethics ... we had that in the sixties. Ironically one thing I don't like about modern religion is its very lack of clarity. Sure you've got "thou shalt not kill" but you've also got the "Just war" concept ("just" as it justice). I much prefer a set of moral absolutes prescribed by society ... No killing ever. Every child should be fed, taught and loved. Nobody goes hungry. The dignity of labor. No television until your homework is done. Hmmm ... I guess some of those are more concepts than rules.

You've got self-described Catholics screaming for a return to the death penalty and pro-lifers physically attacking innocent people and even murdering doctors. If it fits in with their "environment" (a world of fanaticism and self-righteousness) does that make it okay?

As you say, we all try to shape the kind of world [we] would 'wish' to live in. But you have to be careful what you wish for.

- Lee

DeVore

Fundamentalists of any kinda scare me.... I mean *really* scare me. Be they religious, dogmatic, political... theres no reasoning with them and its like putting your hand near a threshing machine, its totally up to you to manage the situation cos they have no way to be reasoned with, no pity, no logic and as a result I think they are missing a large part of what I consider humanity: the struggle with the grey areas...

DeV.

lbgilchrist

Typedef: Ahh...situational ethics ... we had that in the sixties. Ironically one thing I don't like about modern religion is its very lack of clarity. Sure you've got "thou shalt not kill" but you've also got the "Just war" concept ("just" as it justice). I much prefer a set of moral absolutes prescribed by society

Have you ever had something to say, and you really believed it strongly, and you finally said (wrote it in this case). And you look at it say, there, that'll fix the bastards!

Then it begins to nag at you and you go back and re-read it (plus I just happened to read the post about Kant in the Religion vs Morality thread) and think hmmm, do I really feel that way? Or is that some dormant abstraction I came up with long ago and haven't bothered to re-examine in a long time.

There are important things which each one of will not and should not compromise on, but for many things in our lives, especially when we interact with each other, we operate in shades of gray (or grey). Sure, thou shalt not steal, sure ... unless your family is starving.

Folks you've just witnessed a minor epiphany.

- Lee

DeVore

Well that killed *that* thread! LOL

DeV.

The Corinthian

When asked about religion and religious attendance, most Italians will politely respond “Pasqua e Natale” (“Easter and Christmas”). Religion there, and in much of the rest of Europe, is more a question of tradition than belief.

For example, early every Christmas morning the Pope gives a private mass to all the old nobility in Rome. None of them are in the slightest bit religious. However, it is a tradition that has gone on for literally millennia.

Ireland is generally more religious than the rest of Western Europe, but even so it’s going down the same route - Observing those traditions that in part define us, but not actually believing any of it.

Why the US appears to be more religious is difficult to say. A larger number of smaller, and hence more fervent, religious communities may be a reason. Narrower political and ideological debate, in comparison to Europe, may have also contributed to this (American politics appear to have been far less ideologically diverse as they have been in Europe). Poorer education and standard of living for a substantial proportion of the population may also have been a factor.

There may be other reasons for this difference, I’m just speculating. However, this may give the debate a new viewpoint.

DeVore

I've been to and lived in the states a fair bit and I'd make this BROAD generalisation:

Americans live quite a hedonistic lifestyle when compared to us. Everything can be had NOW. 24/7. Quik-e-everything.
Just about any wild desire can be fulfilled if you have the cash, and not only that but the society fairly revels in that fact.

In some senses the states has veered quite closely to an anarchic society, just one based on money rather then physical strength or armament as most anarchy-films would portray.
"Cash rule everything around me, dollah dollah bill y'all" as the rapper says.

So, there is a section of society that is unable to handle that (and in some ways I can understand them, its a fairly scary society to live in in some ways). The reaction is to become more and more right wing. To control not only your own actions but the surrounding environment. (Witness the creation of self contained communities with private police...).

Now, boil all that up with the baby boomers who are facing a crisis of identity as to what their real purpose is on Earth, cos the yuppie thing is getting old...
Season with some charismatic leaders telling you all you have to do is follow them and live a certain (usually reasonably strict and dogmatic) life style and everything will be good.

In some ways we are all children and children seek the boundaries by doing more and more unacceptible things. Kids can often feel reassured if rules are enforced and boundaries set.

Its my belief that this is what is happening on a country wide scale with US religions...

(Dont get me wrong here btw, I believe that living your life by some form of honour code is a good thing, I'm just not convinced that Catholicism or any of the new breed charismatic religions are the right way).

DeV.

lbgilchrist

I know this board is based in Ireland ... and I'm not so Americo-centric (to coin a phrase) to assume that all things American are naturally of vital importance to everyone else in the world.

That said ... on one level I'd have to agree with the above post. Right now, we're in the midst of the annual Christmas buy-a-thon. I worry more about the religion of consumption than Christian fundamentalism. (It seems like they should be natural enemies ... but religions have gotten around that by turning religion into a consumer product, neatly packaged, conveniently located with ample parking. Now the trend is toward designing churches that look more like fitness centers, so no one is scared away by anything too churchy.) I have been out of work several times in my life and even I who knows better am half convinced that losing my "discretionary" income would be much harder now a days. With your more generous unemployment programs, I know it's not the same over there ... but here many people feel they are only a few paychecks away from living in thier car. And that'll certainly put the fear of money into you!

And you can go the large malls (we have the vast MALL OF AMERICA ... one of the biggest tourist destination in the Midwest) and despair at any notions that consumerism could ever be brought to bay.

BUT ... the reality is far more complex and few people (with the exception of teenagers) will just do as their told by advertising. You shouldn't mistake what you see on television with the reality. Sure, advertising belittles its target audience by showing them as stupid or childlike (don't understand how that works ... but there's a lot of it) or with the old standby of "you're not cool without this", or "if you love them, you'll buy them this."
What's probably true here, is not that people are really convinced to buy this specific car, or that diamond necklace or this brand of computer, but that it becomes okay to spend large amounts of money on something. ... and that may include a portion of their income going to build some new mega-church. ... without really facing more fundamental questions about life and living. There must be some link between the act of buying and a certain freedom from disruptive thinking. I buy therefore I am.

- Lee

Xterminator

I have been out of work several times in my life and even I who knows better am half convinced that losing my "discretionary" income would be much harder now a days. With your more generous unemployment programs, I know it's not the same over there ... but here many people feel they are only a few paychecks away from living in thier car. And that'll certainly put the fear of money into you!
- Lee [/B]

Over here the parents on the dole (welfare for our american friends), are subjected to such pressure at times like christmas, and communions etc. that many end up borrowing money the cant afford, to pay for such speacial events.

So yes it is ironic that these are religious festivals.

It would be far easier if children made their communion and confirmation in their school uniforms, (to avoid the rat race) and christmas was more about celebrating the event with your family, (and if you choose remembering the religious reasons too!) than the no. of presents, or whether you got the latest nike trainers etc.

Still ... fat feckin chance eh?

X

Shinji

Hmm.... While I agree with your generalisation (in, er, general) Dev, I don't think that quite explains the immensely strong upswelling of fundamentalist Christianity in the USA. In fact, I'd equate it more closely to the American gun culture than to its consumer culture.

American gun culture, it's often argued, exists because of the basic culture of fear which permeates much of America. People are constantly afraid; they are fed a vision of the world they live in as unsafe, criminal, dark and unpleasant, and they feel that they need guns to protect them. Of course this just causes a stupid escalation of violence and is in itself the cause of much of this fear, not the cure; but while it's easy for those of us outside this vicious circle to see that truth, for many Americans it's impossible to comprehend that, because they're so indoctrinated with fear.

Fundamentalist religion is a similar thing. It gives an outlet to fear; not only does it provide strict rules and structure (both of which are always welcomed by those masses who live in fear of some undefined, anarchist kind of threat) but it also allows them to "legitimately" vent their anger and fear on various groups who go against the "will of God" in some way or another - be they homosexuals, Muslims, non-believers, social libertarians, abortion clinic workers or research scientists.

It's a convincing way to win hearts and minds - would the Nazi party have risen to power so quickly had they not provided a convenient scapegoat for Germany's problems in the already distrusted Jews? - but also a hugely dangerous and very, very scary one...

lbgilchrist

First off, I find fundamentalism repulsive and destructive.

And you're right about the fear part Shinji. But equating it to "gun culture"? No. That’s too simplistic. You're believing the Hollywood mythology. Yes their is a core nut group of gun lovers over here who command great fear among politicians because of their ability to muster votes and money to defend their "never give an inch" position on any gun legislation. They don't even want AK-47s banned! But among most Americans there is no gun culture. Yes. Some people do go hunting (most don't) over here and no doubt more than over there, but that's a more wholesome "hunting/dogs/sitting around the campfire/being with friends" kind of culture. Did you know that most cowboys didn't carry pistols ... it's something the movies made up in the early days of Hollywood.

Other than that point, yes the fundamentalist do offer a reprise from a world that often doesn't seem to have any other rules. Death can be very random and senseless. But I don't think they do or need to teach hate to attract and hold people, I think the doomsday message and the special status they award themselves (true Christians) seems to be strong enough foundation (In fact many of them are huge supporters of Israel because of the role they think it will play in coming apocalypse.) But beyond that, it's sense of community that probably attracts people as much as anything. This demonstrates the failure of mainstream religions and even humanist organizations from offering a compelling alternative.

One of the things that may be affecting your analysis is that fact that the sleazy televangelists are able to make racists and hate-filled statements, apologize for them and then be so easily forgiven for what they said (with a nod and a wink). This easy forgiveness however is built into fundamentalism, since it doesn’t hinge on doing good, but on acceptance that you are a sinner and that one can only gain salvation through the mercy of god. Which is a great loophole for anyone who goes off and over indulges or even does wrong ... all they have to do is come back to the alter and all is forgiven.

-Lee

JustHalf

Originally posted by lbgilchrist
Everyone should be free to worship or not as they please, but this description reminds me of some of the mega churches we've seen going up over here .... especially in the suburbs. They're usually called "Grace" church or some such thing, and are "non-denominational" but are most close to Baptist. They are usually based around a charismatic preacher and put on quite a show with professional level choirs, high production values, huge budgets, and a feel good message. All very popular with CEOs and Republicans, which in turn attracts the networking yuppies. In all fairness they usually devote a fair amount of time to community programs and they do seem to meet some need in lots of people that the traditional churches can't.

Neuro's talking about a Presbyterian church, which isn't charismatic (though Trevor Morrow and Keith McCrory are pretty sound guys).

The church I go to is far closer to what you described . We are expanding, and that's great, but only because the expansion is an obvious side-effect of what we should be aiming for, which is to help people in their walk with God.

Originally posted by lbgilchrist
Converted from what? Certain groups have nonchalantly appropriated the word "Christian" for their exclusive and carefully proscribed use. Christian is a term that provides some sense of unity and common ground for otherwise fractured communities and alienated individuals and should remain available to all.

I think it's fair to say that Christian means a person who has faith in Jesus Christ. This is opposed to the more generic form of "Christian", which seems to include a lot of ex-Catholics who don't actually believe in God. I wish I was making this up. This is all due to the fudging of the English language, unfortunately.

Don't get me started on the phrase "Fascist".

McGinty

Whilst I haven't read every thread here, I am enjoying what I am reading.

Like DeVore and others, I haven't been to Mass since I was 15. However I would class myself as profoundly religious, in that I have found my own path and come to my own conclusions. It is my belief, that God has different paths for everyone. Like DeVore and others, just because someone doens't believe in God, it doesn't mean that the person is immoral. I have known christians who have acted immorally. I have known atheist's with much higher moral fibre than myself.

There's another aspect in particular to the Catholic religion, even if I wanted to go to mass, I wouldn't be able to, as a divorced woman, who is not sorry she is divorced, I would need to go to confession to ask for absolution, I do not consider my divorce a sin. I cannot recieve communion because I am divorced. So if I was a regular church attender, the catholic faith would be rejecting me due to my status, however I guess I would be expected to stay in an abusive marriage.

It is my belief that religion/faith is going through a transition stage, I think it is great that people are finding their own paths and questioning the priests, vicars, etc. It means we are taking it more seriously and religion/faith will take on a deeper meaning.

DeVore

McGinty, good for you...

I'm giving this all a welly load of thought at the moment because I've realised (finally) that I'm not a Christian. I take JustHalfs definition as being the proper definition (a person who believes that Jesus Christ walked this earth as the Son of God). I dont believe that and I've been happy to kinda wander along in a "I'm not hurting anyone" kinda way without actually facing the question: Well, what DO you believe in then...

Recent discussions with people here, there and everywhere have given me a huge amount to think about and clarified my thinking on a lot more.
(For example I've managed to straighten out in my head where Science and Genetics sits in all of this... I'm now quite happy with my spirituality and my belief in science/genetics).

DeV.

PS:
As for fascism, JH... it comes from the Italian for a bundle (usually of twigs afaik...fascio). Each twig could be broken individually but when bound together they couldnt...
However it had more sinister symbolism of authority and power in Roman times and many speculate that it takes more from that then from some idea of "united we stand"...