the best european league

lili

i don't know if this question has already been asked, but what league in europe is the best?
and do you think that the champions league is really representative of the reality?

lili

i mean there is a swiss team in cl and no one french team, it's simply crazy!
i think lyon should be in.

Xterminator

The question is a bit simplicstic.

The best for what?

You see greater skills in the Spanish or Italian leagues, but for tackles flying in, and generally faster tempo games, you cant beat the Premiership.

As for CL .. I'd say it is pretty representitive.
The top 3 or 4 spanish teams the top 2 english teams and a couple of German and Itailian teams always seem to be there or thereabouts.
Theres always a suprise team too .. like Newcastle this year who over achieve, but thats good for TV ratings too.

I would prefer it was truly only a 'Champions' leagure, played on a knock out basis, but the ManU's 'n the Real's need to make there few bucks to pay the top players .. etc.

X

lili

i meant the level of each league.
of course there are different styles of play and i'm glad that italian teams play more offensive.

xlex

If by the champions league you mean runners-up league then fine but the reality of the situation is that the Co-efficients table post a fair reflection on the state of play...

2003/04 UEFA Club Competitions
Associations' Coefficient Ranking
1ESP 68.467
2ITA 58.668
3ENG 55.459
4GER 52.990
5FRA 42.352
6GRE 36.116
7HOL 34.165
8TUR 28.725
9POR 28.249
10RUS 27.291
11CZE 26.625
12SCO 26.125
13UKR 25.958
14BEL 25.525
15AUT 23.250

lili

so france is 5, why the hell there is no french team in cl?!
personaly i found lyon much better then inter milan!

Dustaz

Originally posted by lili
so france is 5, why the hell there is no french team in cl?!

Because they didnt win enough games? . Theyre not barred you know, just not very good.

lili

dooohhh!
have seen the match inter v lyon?!
they were far far better!
i'm disgusted!

Sposs

The English League would be Higher up if the other teams in England would help Man Utd and actually win a few games

lili

in fact, spanish teams are really class.
and english league enjoyable to watch.

xlex

Originally posted by lili
dooohhh!
have seen the match inter v lyon?!
they were far far better!
i'm disgusted!

Tough... and cheap posting...:D

yop

personaly i found lyon much better then inter milan!

At what - cookin the dinner

Explain how you found Lyon to be better team than Lyon and why they deserved to be in the next round, if you base it on watchin one match then if you watched the Manc derby then you probably reckon that the massives deserve to be ahead of United in the league I suppose !

BTW what is this thread about exactly,

johnnynolegs

something to do with cabbage i think yop

lili

Originally posted by yop
At what - cookin the dinner

Explain how you found Lyon to be better team than Lyon and why they deserved to be in the next round, if you base it on watchin one match then if you watched the Manc derby then you probably reckon that the massives deserve to be ahead of United in the league I suppose !

BTW what is this thread about exactly,

at what?
ask to the interists they will answer to you:D

and this thread is about the level of europeans championnats, how do you want i tell it? in chinese?!
10 years ago italians teams dominated the european football, now it's different, seems the defensive play is nomore enough to be at the top.

Sposs

how do you want i tell it? in chinese?!

Try in English With Proper Grammer :rolleyes:

yop

ask to the interists they will answer to you

What!!

how do you want i tell it? in chinese

English would be handy, as would a spell checker

seems the defensive play is nomore enough to be at the top.

MAybe I am wrong but Ac Milan were the furthiest thing from defensive you could find. With the like of Van Bastan, Riikard, Guillt, Albertini, Simone, Lentini they had a fantastic attacking team, they did not win the CL by soaking pressure and attacking, they went for the win by attacking, so on this front, IMO, I do not agree with this statement

lili

well, we can do it in french if you are so smart:D

yop

something to do with cabbage i think yop

And an auld feed of pigs arse and spuds jock, making me hungry here now.....:D

lili

and anyway i will not excuse myself for my grammar, it's already good i try to speak in you language!

yop

That explains your loyalty to Lyon then

Sposs

Originally posted by lili
well, we can do it in french if you are so smart:D

Work away .

Waylander

I do not think there is any question that the Spanish league is currently the best in Europe. They have after all dominated the CL finals and semi finals of the last three years. After that I would have the English league. I do not understand how the italians are rated ahead of them. if you compare results between teams from the two leagues the English teams definitely have the upper hand over the last four or five years. I would rate the Italian league as third.

xlex

When you take the points for win and draws and the result against the quality of the opposition from the UEFA and CL games you find the Italians are the better... English sides have had very poor reps in Europe and we are pointing to the european reps for an indication of quality...

Waylander

Xlex I suggest you check back over the last number of years and you will see English teams have progressed further then Italian teams, and have a better record against Italian teams. At least since United beat both Juve and Inter on the way to winning the CL in 99, but I think for the season before that also. When was the last time the Italians had a team in the semi finals of the champions league ? To my mind AC milan are the only ones who look anyway scary this season, despite Inter vicory against Newcastle.

Makaveli

Last time an Italian team was in the semi-finals was when Juve won the CL? I dunno. Recently they have performed badly in the CL.
English teams have the better record against Italian teams over the past few years.
Utd against Inter and Juve.
Liverpool against Roma.

Spanish teams seem to do better against English teams, English teams better against Italian teams and Italian teams better against Spanish.

Juve are looking strong. 4-0 against Basle is not a bad result. Milan won again tonight.
Barcelona 3-1 Newcastle, Barcelona still with 100% record.

As you can see from the groups if there are no upsets the quarter finals will be made up basically of Spanish, English and Italian teams.

La liga is the best in Europe, then the Premiership and then Serie A.

As for French teams, well they have never really posed a real threat in European football since Marseilles good days. If you notice the majority of top french players play abroad. This fact was clear during the WC when only two of their starting players played in France (Lebouf and Dugarry, I think it was Dugarry).

lili

well, for the french selection in national, the things are changing with the new coach, cause we have talented players in france.

xlex

Originally posted by Waylander
Xlex I suggest you check back over the last number of years and you will see English teams have progressed further then Italian teams,

Waylander can you look past United and Arsenel for a change... I suggest you explain why Italy are above Engerland in the coefficent table... I don't need to explain it, but often Englands fourth, fifth and sixth european tean is **** poor... Anyone who proclaimes the best league in the world is the one whose top two do the business is an idiot...... I'll reserch this for you Waylander because you my friend are pushing it...

xlex

2003/04 UEFA Club Competitions
Associations' Coefficient Ranking
Ass. +/- 96/97 97/98 98/99 99/00 00/01 01/02 Total
1ESP - 11.600 8.428 10.000 18.571 16.611 14.857 68.467
2ITA - 10.142 12.285 12.000 12.000 9.812 12.571 58.668
3ENG - 7.400 7.785 7.437 14.500 14.166 11.571 55.459
4GER - 9.142 11.000 6.357 11.071 11.062 13.500 52.990


As every one can now see England have only out preformed Italy in two seasons since 96/97. This takes into account UEFA cup, the CL and the old Cup Winners Cup... proof that Italy is still stronger than England... Can I have an explaination....

If over the past three years then England is stronger but Italy is getting back to where's it deserves to be...

Any other notions of grandeur expressed towards the Premiership is mearly being sought by Manure fans...

smackbunnybaby

Originally posted by lili
so france is 5, why the hell there is no french team in cl?!
personaly i found lyon much better then inter milan!

damn right lili , i think we should do away with matches and just
let the teams we want to qualify go through to the next round .

Waylander

I was also talking about Liverpool and Leeds getting the better of Roma in Uefa cup, and last seasons Champions league Xlex. I did not say the premiership was the best league I said the Spanish one was so please do not put words into my mouth. As regards my explanation of why Italy have the better coeffiecent, you may recall that it was me saying I do not understand that that started this part of the thread, so obviously I cannot explain it. So now we have United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Leeds beating Italian competition. But Listen do not worry you can alwas point out that Inter beat Ipswich in the Uefa cup last season. Maybe it is a s Makeveli said, the Italians have abetter record against the Spanish. But as I pointed out, and you have not answered, the last time an Italian team even made the semi finals of the CL was the Year Juve won it, 1996\97 I think. Now if you are trying to tell me that this is an admirable record for the Italian league in recent years I would not like to see your idea of a poor streak. May be the coeffiecent is better because, when all the Italian teams have been going out of the CL to the UEFA cup, where the standard is much lower, they started winning matches and getting to semi finals and finals, whereas Arsenal and Liverpool have been going out at the second group stage where they do not get into the Uefa cup. Again I suggest you research actual match results in matches between these two leagues and stop looking at coefficients. These are after all about as meaningful as the Fifa ranking system that had France and Argentina in the top 5 in the world before the world cup.

lili

Originally posted by smackbunnybaby
damn right lili , i think we should do away with matches and just
let the teams we want to qualify go through to the next round .

haha, isn't the selection already done with the error of referees?:D

smackbunnybaby

stats lie *sometimes*

peeve

Originally posted by smackbunnybaby
damn right lili , i think we should do away with matches and just
let the teams we want to qualify go through to the next round .

Sheff Wed for Europe, smack?

stats lie *sometimes*

Well, in your case, i dont think so, rock bottom of D1 says it all


Sorry, back to the topic....

smackbunnybaby

errors......biasism(???)......it all makes for great viewing if your team is never involved!!

sheffield wednesday champions league 2010

lili

waylander,
the wc 2002 was a big joke for me!
only some squads like turkey and senegal deserved to go far. brazil wasn't the best, sorry.

smackbunnybaby

south korea....do do do do.....bias.....do do do do.....im not saying anything.....do do do do

lili

no biasism, i saw the last years how auxerre was stolen in european competitions!
and in my opinion lyon deserved much better to go through than inter milan or the swiss team!

xlex

But as I pointed out, and you have not answered, the last time an Italian team even made the semi finals of the CL was the Year Juve won it, 1996\97 I think

Fair enough and the recent record of the English versus Italian sides favours them... I think it's correct to say that each league has the better of another but hey on the balance the Italians are the better of the English... I'm only stating this on the back of the coefficents...

Now the original question was of the best league in Europe? What Lili was talking about I don't know, but if you take all the European qualifiers into account from champions to inter-toto qualifiers, the italians have done better most seasons... exceptions: Manure's win in 99/00 and the additional place the following year...

Now if its the English V's Italians ties your looking at to determine the better league then you win...

I win, if I look at it the same way UEFA do...

On my last point I think it's stupid to compare UEFA's method for club football to FIFA's method of ranking in International football...
apples with pears, and all that...

lili

oops! and i forgot to say about the wc 2002 that ireland was great;) big heart! i was with you guys:)

lili

dooooohh, is my english that bad that you didn't get the subject of my topic?:(

i meant, if you make the average of each league in europe (from the top team to the bottom team) which league has the most high level.

in my opinion it's the spanish league.
voilà, hope you understood now:)

Waylander

Fair enough Xlex. But I do not see the comparison as apples and pears I see it as two similar ranking systems. Can you tell me the basis and the weighting Uefa use for each of the competitons, and how they award the points because I still do not understand the italian league over the English, regardless of what way you look at it. In the last few years English teams have won all three European cups, Arsenal were beaten finalists in the Uefa cup, Leeds were beaten Semi Finalists in both the CL and the Uefa cup and United were beaten in the Semi final of the CL twice. Fair enough Chelsea have underperformed each year, and Newcastle have never done much before this year but to me the Italian representative have not achieved anywhere near the same in the same period. Up to 1996 I would say the Italians had the best league but I think it has gone downhill since then. The only Italians I would regard as true contenders in the CL this season are AC Milan.

pickarooney

Originally posted by Waylander
But as I pointed out, and you have not answered, the last time an Italian team even made the semi finals of the CL was the Year Juve won it, 1996\97 I think.

Juventus were in the final in 1998 and the semis again in 1999.
You could have at least looked it up before posting.

Waylander

You are right but that info was supplied by someone else earlier in the thread when I asked the question when the last Italian team played in a semi. When noone disputed it I assumed it was right. You could at least have read the whole thread before you waded in.

Makaveli

Originally posted by lili
i meant, if you make the average of each league in europe (from the top team to the bottom team) which league has the most high level.

How can you take an average of each league? That doesnt make any sense.

Stats for CL for the last 7 years:

2002
Final: Leverkusen vs Real Madrid winners Madrid
Semi Finals: Barcelona Madrid Man. United Leverkusen

2001
Final: Bayern vs Valencia winners Munich
Semi Finals: Madrid Bayern Leeds Valencia

2000
Final: Madrid vs Valencia winners Madrid
Semi Finals: Madrid Bayern Barcelona Valencia

1999
Final: Man Utd vs Bayern winners Man Utd
Semi Finals: Man. United Juventus Dynamo Bayern

1998
Final: Juve vs Madrid winners Madrid
Semi Finals: Juventus Monaco Madrid Dortmund

1997
Final: Juve vs Dortmund winners Dortmund
Semi Finals: Ajax Juventus Dortmund Man. United

1996
Final: Ajax vs Juve winners Juve
Semi Finals: Ajax Panathinaikos Juventus Nantes

xlex

How competition places are allocated UEFA
Tuesday 15 October 2002
The allocation of places per association - known as the access list - for both the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Cup is made in accordance with a table of performances covering five UEFA club competition seasons.

Three competitions
Thus, performances by clubs in the Champions League, UEFA Cup and UEFA Cup Winners' Cup - results obtained in the UEFA Intertoto Cup do not count - conspire to form the annual UEFA Association Coefficient Rankings table, with the 'oldest' season dropped each time for the purpose of the calculation.

Coefficient value
The points obtained each season by the clubs representing a national association are first added together, then divided by the combined number of clubs from the said association having taken part in the three UEFA club competitions in question to produce the coefficient value of the national association concerned.

Calculation system
The table of coefficients, which are calculated to the thousandth and not rounded up, is compiled as follows:

a win is worth 2 points (1 point for qualifying-round matches)
a draw is worth 1 point (1/2 point for qualifying-round matches)
a defeat is worth 0 points

Extra points
Clubs which reach the quarter-finals, semi-finals or final of the Champions League or UEFA Cup - or reached in the case of the now defunct Cup Winners' Cup - are awarded an extra point for each such round. In addition, one point is awarded for participation in the Champions League.

Final decision
In the case of equal coefficients, the UEFA Administration will take a final decision, taking into consideration the individual coefficient of the most recent season. Games or competitions decided by penalty kicks do not affect the results of a match and points are only awarded for games which have been played in accordance with the results ratified by UEFA.

xlex

Above the calculation of co-efficients... I posted the FIFA way of doing things on a new thread....

Apples and Pears to me...

It's a fair system of calculating the best of... IMO

pickarooney

Originally posted by Waylander
You are right but that info was supplied by someone else earlier in the thread when I asked the question when the last Italian team played in a semi. When noone disputed it I assumed it was right. You could at least have read the whole thread before you waded in.

I did, including that bit where you said

But as I pointed out, and you have not answered, the last time an Italian team even made the semi finals of the CL was the Year Juve won it, 1996\97 I think.

So I answered.

Waylander

Can't really argue witht eh formula as described there, but I am very surprised that the Italians fared so well out of it. To my mind I still think the Premiership is a more quality league at the moment but maybe that is down to a lack of exposure to the Italian league, as since Channel 4 stopped doing the Serie A round up I have not seen much Italian football. But I still think that inter league results will back up my point here.

The best thing is proably to agree to disagree, as we can bioth back up our view points with fairly sound reasoning.

lili

i think i gonna scream!
makaveli,
i gonna ask to a irish friend to help me to make me understood cause that makes me crazy.
i'm talking about the level of a championnat, i don't know how to make me understood better.
for instance the level of the championnat of canada might be less good than the spanish one, do you see my point?
so, i'm asking in europe, which country has the higher level of football.

xlex

Sound... I could debate the English being a better league stuff to but hey... I'm a Longford Town fan and I don't care...

Did you have a look at the FIFA thread??