PPS = Big brother

Nevyn

I got a letter today from Client Identity Services,
apparently they are a new section of the Dept of Socail and Family affairs.

The point of the letter was to inform me of my childrens PPS no. ( or rsi as it was known.

They are only 4 and 2 years of age.
But under the new guidelines the PPS will be used for the following:

The records of childrens Immunisations,

medical cards and perscription

the Drugs payment scheme ( for those with out a medical card)

Pupil ID ( schools will want it to claim funding , prove your child is enrolled)

Thier exam number for all state examinations .

The PPS will be on all of the new photo driving linces and appear on all fines.

As well as the usual tax and prsi uses of the PPS .
Many Banks now ask for it when you are appying ofr an account or a loan.

So all anyone will need it that lil number to get that much information on your life , or my childs .

I'm really not happy with this at all.

What happens when you apply for a job and you get asked for your PPS, some application forms have them .
an employer can then go and serach back your medical history and the rest from that number.

It seems that this is being quietly set up and no one has yet to complain.

Gordon

By the way this is what they do in Sweden. If you don't pay your landlord he can stick it on your card.

Victor

I think you are rightly, but overly concerned. What the PPS number will do, is track children from birth on through life to see in cold statistical numbers exactly how each turn in life affects them, e.g. lower class kids in the UK are 18 times more likely to die in a house fire than upper class kids, that is the kind of information that will become glaringly obvious and will need much less investigative work. If concerns arise over a specific batch of child immunisations, those children could be tracked right through their lives and found if necessary. It will show how well the students of a particular school do in later life - "did that school fail these students" - "or were they doomed anyway because of their social origin".

In any case, too much of the civil service is used up in trying to work out who you are (for legitimate reasons). Having a different number for each state agency only leads to mistakes, complications, loss of benefit and extra paperwork.

Originally posted by Thaed
The records of childrens Immunisations,
medical cards and perscription
the Drugs payment scheme ( for those with out a medical card)
Pupil ID ( schools will want it to claim funding , prove your child is enrolled)
Thier exam number for all state examinations .
The PPS will be on all of the new photo driving linces and appear on all fines.
As well as the usual tax and prsi uses of the PPS .

All are either related to you getting a service from the government or are medically related.

Originally posted by Thaed
Many Banks now ask for it when you are appying ofr an account or a loan.

I have never heard of this, other than for the SSIA-type accounts (where you get money from the goverment).

Originally posted by Thaed
So all anyone will need it that lil number to get that much information on your life , or my childs .

(a) It's not all that much information
(b) It is stored separately
(c) Only people with reason to access it, can access it.

Originally posted by Thaed
What happens when you apply for a job and you get asked for your PPS, some application forms have them . an employer can then go and serach back your medical history and the rest from that number.

Don't fill it in on the application form, give it to them when you get the job.

bonkey

Originally posted by Thaed
an employer can then go and serach back your medical history and the rest from that number.

Sure - if he had some way of obtaining classified information like that. Medical information is some of the most sensitively treated in the system - its not easy to get - you'd need an insider.

Of course, if you had an insider, with a name and address, you could probably get all that medical information today, because its all stored anyway. So nothing really changes here.

On the plus side, you shouldnt have to supply the same details time and time again to government services when you avail of them. You wont have to constantly dredge up those old documents to make yet another copy to supply to yet another agency, and so on.

It also, incidentally, allows for far more efficient use of information, and god knows that our state bodies could use some extra efficiency.

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
Of course, if you had an insider, with a name and address, you could probably get all that medical information today, because its all stored anyway.

Not really, to track all my medical records, you would need to confer with:

* 2 government departments
* 1 health insurance company
* 2 health boards
* 1 city council
* 5 hospitals (with one of those holding separated files, by department, all paper files)
* 4 GP practices (only one with partly computerised files, all the rest paper)
* 3 consultants
* at least a dozen pharmacies (fully computerised, but non sharing)
* 3 employers

And that would only give you part of the picture.

hallelujajordan

Not really, to track all my medical records, you would need to confer with:

* 2 government departments
* 1 health insurance company
* 2 health boards
* 1 city council
* 5 hospitals (with one of those holding separated files, by department, all paper files)
* 4 GP practices (only one with partly computerised files, all the rest paper)
* 3 consultants
* at least a dozen pharmacies (fully computerised, but non sharing)
* 3 employers

Q ? Think a little down the line . . . In 5/10 years time what will you need to get this information ? ? ?

A ?
* 1 Username
* 1 Password !

There is a very serious civil liberties issue here ! Did anyone see Questions and Answers a couple of weeks ago where Seamus Brennan hinted (very openly) that the government would be willing to provide insurance companies with all the penalty points info if they promised to lower insurance costs ......

Paranoid ? ? Probably, but there's so much big business involved here that I really do think we need to be careful !!

amen

the government should be allowed to provide Penalty Point information to insurance companies and all details of driving convictions etc.

After all why should I pay for a driver with 4 Penality Points if I have none ?

ykt0di9url7bc3

re: Amen

yeah i got lost in all that too...



Selective Databasing Thead? where youyr PPs is the key to the information wanted...as in handing over your pps number to a Pharmisct will only let the "strange guy behind the counter" access what you have been perscribed and how you are going to pay for it!

but for banks it may be another form of ID thats secure???!?
if the new system is set up properly then ok but i agree i dont want to the "stange man from behind the counter" to know anything more than he needs to know to fulfil his job!

bonkey

Originally posted by Victor
Not really, to track all my medical records, you would need to confer with:

* 2 government departments
* 1 health insurance company
* 2 health boards
* 1 city council
* 5 hospitals (with one of those holding separated files, by department, all paper files)
* 4 GP practices (only one with partly computerised files, all the rest paper)
* 3 consultants
* at least a dozen pharmacies (fully computerised, but non sharing)
* 3 employers

And that would only give you part of the picture.

And where does it say that all information which uses this PPS ID will be centrally stored? You think all your GPs will be forced to email their findings on your chest cough into the government for adding to your bg seekrit file? I somehow doubt it.

jc

JustHalf

The PPS number assigns each person a unique identification number, that can be used to associate them with data.

Instead of having to combine several different fields to create a key for a database, only this number will be needed, which will be GUARANTEED to be unique. So the bank, post office, whatever just need this number to identify you in their database.

So it solves a lot of headaches.

My only concern with this is that it aids seperate databases were to be combined into one big government-run database monitoring our every move, but this is would still be a massive pain in the ass to do (and quite frankly, we'll know about it a long time before it happens).

Victor

Oh, I forgot, only the following have my PPS

* 2 government departments [yes, health & social welfare]
* 1 health insurance company [yes, tax relief]
* 2 health boards [1 yes, 1 no]
* 1 city council [no]
* 5 hospitals (with one of those holding separated files, by department, all paper files) [no]
* [edit]5 GP practices (only one with partly computerised files, all the rest paper) [1 yes, 3 no]
* 3 consultants [1 yes, 2 no]
* at least a dozen pharmacies (fully computerised, but non sharing) [no]
* 3 employers [yes, tax]

Nevyn

WEll our gp and the local health boards are computerised.
So now there is not a huge chance of getting all this info by merely inputting a PPS no but what of the future ?

I am worried about how it will be used in the future and the effect it will have not only on my self but that of my kids for they will be arround in 70 years or so ( hopefully )

I know the gps will not be emailing about your chest infection but as more companies are pushing employees to fill out sick benifit froms and get them stamped by thier doctors these will have your PPS and the time you spent off work and your diagnoises .
They are sent to the dept of socail well fare and the revenue .

The county council will have your PPS as they are going to use it for cross referncing voter registaion , so your pps will be on your
voting slip and you will have to present id with that number on it .

If the current governmet keeps winning elections What is to stop them contraction out all thier IT or databases to be set up in the future by one company ?

In the Uk they have alrady started link up hospitals to track patients .


I know that it may speed along the dealing with that seems to idiot on the other end of the phone but that is preferible to a system that can be open to a lot of abuse.

If you werent paraniod about what info can be obtained you should be, and that is with out the crossrefencing of a PPS.

Victor

Originally posted by Thaed
WEll our gp and the local health boards are computerised.
So now there is not a huge chance of getting all this info by merely inputting a PPS no but what of the future ?

How much of your GPs office is computerised, billing and medical reports / letters? I imagine your 'chart' is still all paper.

Originally posted by Thaed
I am worried about how it will be used in the future

I think there is need to be cautious, but not 'worried'.

Originally posted by Thaed
more companies are pushing employees to fill out sick benifit froms and get them stamped by thier doctors these will have your PPS

(a) your employer already has your PPS and is entitled to know why you didn't show show up last week.
(b) The doctor needs the number so he can claim his fee from social welfare for the cert.

Originally posted by Thaed
They are sent to the dept of socail well fare and the revenue

Social welfare obviously need them to pay you sickness benefit or whatever. teh Revenue Commissioners do not get them.

Originally posted by Thaed
The county council will have your PPS as they are going to use it for cross referncing voter registaion , so your pps will be on your voting slip and you will have to present id with that number on it .

I'm sorry I think you will need to back this up, seeing as the putting of any identifying number on a ballot paper is illegal and unconstitutional.

Originally posted by Thaed
What is to stop them contraction out all thier IT or databases to be set up in the future by one company ?

The risk that is there is only one database, held externally that that company goes bust or has a fire or ....

Originally posted by Thaed
In the Uk they have alrady started link up hospitals to track patients .

Is this a bad thing?

Shinji

The fundamental problem with the privacy lobby is that it always seems to jump on the wrong bandwagons

The PPS system, when fully implemented, will speed up and greatly simplify things like medical treatment, the social welfare system and so on. All it's doing is taking information which is ALREADY in databases out there and combining them together using this unique number as a key rather than your name and address, which is the current system. Say, like Our Glorious Leader, your name is Tom Murphy; have you any idea how many other Tom Murphys there are in Ireland, and as a result how difficult it could be for a hospital to locate the correct medical history for you in the event of an emergency, for example?

Worry about governmental spying. Worry about threats to freedom of speech and expression. Worry about corporate influences on government. Worry about police powers that are open to abuse. Worry about internment, worry about dodgy dealings in foreign affairs, worry about manipulation of the media.

The addition of a primary key to databases of medical and employment information to make searching them easier is the least of your worries.

hallelujajordan

Worry about governmental spying. Worry about threats to freedom of speech and expression. Worry about corporate influences on government. Worry about police powers that are open to abuse. Worry about internment, worry about dodgy dealings in foreign affairs, worry about manipulation of the media.

And you don't think that a national central database holing all records pertaining to an individual can facilitate any of these . . .??

I'm not saying this is a really bad idea, but think about the potential for wrongdoing if such a system were in place . . . . then think about how much you trust our current batch of politicians not to do wrong !

Shinji

I'm not saying this is a really bad idea, but think about the potential for wrongdoing if such a system were in place

I'm actually having a tough time thinking of ANY potential for wrongdoing that can't be plugged with very simple security measures. Most of the ones mentioned on this thread so far seem to be people worried that they won't be able to lie to their employers or insurance companies any more.

Be still my beating heart.

adnans

Originally posted by Victor
Not really, to track all my medical records, you would need to confer with:

* 2 government departments
* 1 health insurance company
* 2 health boards
* 1 city council
* 5 hospitals (with one of those holding separated files, by department, all paper files)
* 4 GP practices (only one with partly computerised files, all the rest paper)
* 3 consultants
* at least a dozen pharmacies (fully computerised, but non sharing)
* 3 employers

And that would only give you part of the picture.

i finally figured out Victor's real identity. are you a rhesus monkey?

i found the old RSI number (PPS) very handy when i had to take my uncle to the hospital when he damaged his leg. all i had to do is give the receptionist the medical card where she had all the details on the screen instantly. saved me the hassle of spelling the name and going through the history with her.

and why do people call it Big Brother? isnt he the sort of person to help you beat off bullies and get you booze when you arent old enough to buy it yourself?

adnans

Victor

What specific scenario do the objectors present as being a problem?

Nevyn

Originally posted by Victor
How much of your GPs office is computerised, billing and medical reports / letters? I imagine your 'chart' is still all paper.

My GPs system is a data base there is no paper all thier records are accesed via the terminal in any one of the offices that way they try to gett a better picture of a patients overall health.
MAkes it easier to spot trends.

Originally posted by Victor
I'm sorry I think you will need to back this up, seeing as the putting of any identifying number on a ballot paper is illegal and unconstitutional.

I didnt say ballot paper but voting slip this is the lil piece pf paper that gets set out to your address which you must present at the polling station.