3rd Greatest Briton - Diana

comet

Well Diana is the 3rd greatest Briton ever according to the British public. What a mockery this makes of the achivements of the great thinkers, scientist, artists, politicians etc who have lived in Britain. What was her greatness? Will she be remembered in 100 years time, i don't think think so. She was a royal wife who took an interest in some charities to keep herself busy because she had nothing else to do. If she hadn't married into the royal family would we have ever known of her? I don't think so.

Pugsley

She was 'great' because she had a car crash and died, the public took sympathy and said she was great......
Why she was even there in the 1st place kinda puzzles me, she done nothing massively important except a few charities.

GiMiC

I'd have to agree with both of you, she didn't really deserve to be there. Hundreds of other people have devoted their lives to charities but you don't see their names on the list. Compared to the others in the top-ten she did very little. I'm not trying to belittle what she DID do, I just don't think it's fair to elevate her to the same level as Darwin, Newton, or Churchill.

Mountjoy Mugger

Well, at least she came ahead of Cromwell..

mike65

Di was there for the same reason as Lennon was, dead young and in a sudden fashion.

Mike.

Pigman

If Cromwell can be one of the 10 Greatest Britons then surely Hitler will be included in the 10 Greatest Germans when the time comes?

Personally you'd have to wonder at the significance of a poll of its nature that had Lennon and Diana in it's final 10. Watching Wog-man trying to defend the Scoucers case was an embarrasement in itself.

Dustaz

Originally posted by mike65
Di was there for the same reason as Lennon was, dead young and in a sudden fashion.

I think youll find that the hundreds of songs that touched millions of people around the world had something to do with Lennons inclusion mike (altho i take the point that McCartney was equally involved)

mike65

Sometimes I bet McCartney wishes he got shot!

Still, he'll proberly have the last laugh when he's seen as the grand old man of popular music without whom...etc.

Mike.

pickarooney

Originally posted by Pigman
If Cromwell can be one of the 10 Greatest Britons then surely Hitler will be included in the 10 Greatest Germans when the time comes?

Only if the Germans are as lax with their definitions as the British, and allow an Austrian on their list.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

comet

Well who knows considering Bono was one of the top 100 Britons!!

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

Originally posted by Pigman
If Cromwell can be one of the 10 Greatest Britons then surely Hitler will be included in the 10 Greatest Germans when the time comes?

Poppycock. Cromwell was a revolutionary thinker, leader, soldier and politician of his time. An indifferent farmer who shook the foundations of political thought til its teeth rattled. The fact that he's been perceived by certain areas of armchair history in a poor light AFTER his death is of no consequence to me. After his death the new king had him hung, drawn and quartered- unable to defeat him in life, they chose to humiliate him in death. Much of the unpleasantness was rumour, talk to any historian on the subject and they'll set you straight. No great patriotic figure in any era was without deep-seated flaws of some kind. Washington kept slaves and spoke of liberty, Michael Collins spoke of the right to self-government and brutally put down seperatist movements, Churchill spoke of tolerant liberty but was fiercely colonial and very much a racist at times. Despite these paradoxes, these men had moral and physical courage of the sternest sort, leading from the front in battle, and in peacetime.

Parliamentary democracy, and reflective bicameral systems of all natures owe their existence in large part to Cromwell's defeat of the royalists. To compare a campaigner for liberty, individual freedom and representation of the people in government to a Nazi dictator bent on world domination is as ludicrous an assertion as it is ignorant. At the end of his conquest he was offered the crown of England, the chance to establish a dynasty of his own, and he refused. That to me spells out how much his cause meant to him, and it was a just cause he fought for tooth and nail. Hitler's cause was purely self-motivated megalomania- Cromwell's was for a people's republic. As an American I admire his idea that revolution is a just route to freedom. Many of our freedom battlecries grew out of Cromwell's doctrine- "No taxation without representation", and "Give me liberty or give me death"- are lifted straight out of Cromwell's memoirs. This is no coincidence, such a route to fair government was charted and explored by him, and we all reap the benefits of such thinking today. If not for these ideals that he saw fit to fight for, we'd all likely be living in colonial settlements under absolute monarchs- a myriad of mini-Hitlers bent on dominating their own little patch. So Pigman, without Cromwell we'd be a hell of a lot closer to being ruled by Hitler than we'd care to even imagine :P

Personally you'd have to wonder at the significance of a poll of its nature that had Lennon and Diana in it's final 10. Watching Wog-man trying to defend the Scoucers case was an embarrasement in itself.

Diana I'd agree with you on, but Lennon? His creative work in the field of popular music is unmatched. And it's not only critics that concede this- industry peers, music executives and the general public all acknowledged his creative genius in his own lifetime....and they still do. LiveAid, BandAid, Ballads of Freedom and countless other musical charity projects would never have arisen if not for Lennon's inextricable relationship with peace campaigning. He took on a bullish US administration at a time where conscientious objectors were jailed, persecuted and tormented by a fiercely paranoid American media, quick to jump on "communist hippie" peace advocates.

This is where the difference between him and Diana is really felt- she was at no risk from the publicity she sought, the causes were largely popular, merely un-highlighted at the time she illuminated them. Lennon was very much in the minority, but fought on nonetheless against tremendous odds.


No doubt, the vote was largely based on popularity rather than true merit. Hence the appearance of *cringe* David Beckham over Constable or Witherington. Because of my chosen field of work/study I would have liked to see Charles Darwin win it, but given that one needs a fairly detailed knowledge of evolutionary theory to understand the paramount significance of his work, it's not suprising the public went for a more recognizable and recent figure. Brunel made practical the concept of industrialized economy, pioneered structural, construction, mechanical and especially civil engineering. These are things people relate to a lot easier than Shakespeare's plays or the Principia Mathematica, arguably the greatest scientific paper ever published, and the most important.

One doesn't expect the pop charts to consistently deliver quality artists and provoking music- nor should we expect high-minded intellectual choice in a poll open to the general public.

Occy

Waylander

I cannot believe that some of you people have put Lennon into the same club as Diana. If you were going to categorize him with anyone else from the top ten it should have been Shakespeare as they were both the fathers of their respective arts. John Lennon has been an influence on just about every form of music since the 1960's and was one half of the greatest song writing duo of all time.

Also Lennon was a legend while he was still alive, it is not something that has suddenly happened since 1980. No man or woman has done more to promote world peace then Lennon. To my mind he had as much right to figure in that top 10 as any of the others had. It should also be borne in mind that Lennon only came to prominince in 1963, so he achieved everything in a seventeen year period, unlike almost all of the others in the list who devoted entire lifetimes to their areas of greatness.

mike65

Originally posted by Waylander


Lennon was a legend while he was still alive, it is not something that has suddenly happened since 1980. No man or woman has done more to promote world peace then Lennon.

Er I'll ignore that last bit except to say :rolleyes: but what interested me about the Lennon vote was that the overwhelming number of votes came from the under-25s and almost none from those over 55 - his own contempories. Dunno what that says beyond the obvious, ie students fall for that sort of figure like they once did for Che Guevara.

Mike.

Waylander

I do not really know what youre trying to say there Mike. Is it that students should not be considered a worthy part of the adult population, you don't seem to value their opinions anyway. Also I never said he was the greatest Britain and even though I am a huge fan of his I would not have voted for him, but I do think he had as much right as any of the others to be included in the top ten with what he has achieved and what he has tried to stand for.

The_Bullman

Bob the unlucky octopus,

nice reply there, the only issue it didn't mention was the reason(imo) that Pigman made that post.

I would say the "to hell or to Connaught" statement would stand against him.

Pugsley

I didnt actually watch the show - but who got top spot btw?

Waylander

1st Churchill
2nd Brunell
3rd Diana

poobags

Dead right Bob!

FInally Cromwell can be istiguinished as a demon.

As a native of Drogheda I can relate very much to this.
A local historian tried to bring Cromwell's sword over on a exhibition and the man got death threats.

The mayor even went on record saying the historian was promoting evil and challenge him to a duel!
( the same man coined the phrase DOn't feed the GOndolas-asked whether he things we should create a Venice like attraction in IReland he said,sure how would ya feed the gondolas.He also broke Padre Pio's bed and stole MOther theresas dinner. Oh and he wanted to erect a plaque to comemerate Bill Clinton driving through the town on his way up to Dundalk! And they say no one respects Droghedeans!!!)

Poor guy just wanted to set the record straight that Crowell didn't slaughter Drogheda people. Put the ignorant mayor came to the rescue of the people and defended us and at the same time made us all look like fools.

I say yey Cromwell. I also say yey Lennon.

Whats wrong with being a dreamer, being naive.
"Nothings goin to change my world"---Across the Universe

In my opinion he was the only perosn on the list that actually represented the working class of Britian. who appealled to both the intellectual and the ordinary people.
He truly was a genius.

comet

interesting post Bob


I wouldn't vote Lennon top 10 for peace work, I'd vote him there for musical genius. I'd be all for peace too if I smoked that much dope!! ( BTW wasn't he supposed to have support to the IRA?)


It seems any of these polls will give very different results depending on the era in which they are taken. The top 3 were people who lived in the 20th century, obviously having the advantage of impacting peoples lives more directly than those who now only live in history books.
Newton and Darwin will never be forgotten, Lennons music(+ the rest of the Beatles) will surely live on in the centuries to come, that sort of genius never goes out of fashion.

Dustaz

Originally posted by comet
( BTW wasn't he supposed to have support to the IRA?)

That was McCartney. He recorded a song called Give Ireland back to the Irish with Wings. Not sure of the background to it.

Mad_Patrick

John Lennon was an IRA sympathyser and gave them money. However the whole Diana thing, she should be on the list of worst people, not just brittons. She had 2 kids and tried to top herself 6 times. Thats SIX times she tried to kill herself. How hard can life be when you live in a castle?? I would reckopn that most mothers would go through hell rather than leave her kids wondering if it was their fault that their mom killed herself, but not this "princess". Well I rambled enough I reckon

Waylander

Where did you get your info on Lennon donating money to the IRA Mad Patrick, I am not saying you are wrong as I know he always leant towards the Irish in a favourable way, but it is something I never heard before.

Mad_Patrick

There was a big thing about it a few years ago, they were on about it on Jerry Ryan the day it came to light. Ity was on the news and all, on the radio anyway, I don't know if it was important enough to get on the TV news