Motion of No Confidence - Mr McCreevy

PH01

Do you have confidence in Mr. McCreevy as Minister of Finance?

Xterminator

Leaving aside the whole agument of whether the government has been fiscally wise , up until now, and whether they were honest about the state of the economy in the runup to the election, then ...

I believe McCreevy is well qualified to be in the job as finance minister, given his accounting backround.

I think he has shown he can and will force other depts to regin in there spending when he has to. Thus I do believe he can 'administer the medicine' the irish economy needs.

I do think that we are very much affected by the global economy, and that the best we can do is to run a tight ship, and wait till the prevailing conditions improve.

X

damien_gill

I agree with Xterminator we have an excellent minister for finance.

In fact Mc Creevey is the only member of Fianna Fail that I'd ever vote for. He doesn't **** around which is the way a politician should be.

I also agree,McCreevy is well capable.
It's just the nature of politics that, incumbants squander a bit to get re-elected.
When the opposition give me proof positive that the same defecit wouldn't have happened if they were in power at the time then I'll say McCreevy was bad.
It might even have been worse under a different admin, who knows?
mm

PH01

A McCreevy Love-in - I wasn't expecting this

Though I do agree with what has been said so far...

Thomas

>I also agree,McCreevy is well capable.
>It's just the nature of politics that, >incumbants squander a bit to get >re-elected.
>When the opposition give me proof >positive that the same defecit wouldn't >have happened if they were in power at >the time then I'll say McCreevy was bad.
>It might even have been worse under a >different admin, who knows?
>mm

the fact that it is common for a minister to over spend for political reasons is hardly a defense of mcgreevy's accounting ability.

also, saying that it could have been worse is a mute point - ww2 could have been worse with someone other than hitler in control but that hardly means that hitler was a good leader does it?!

Thomas

please excuse the miss-spelling of McCreevy in my last post.....

Cork

I think that if you need an example of the brass neck of our opposition TDs - Look at the McCreevy motion.

What have FG to offer? Their manifesto was not great. Is this the best our opposition TDs can come up with.

I think Mr. McCreevy should have a no cofidence motion in the opposition.

aine

Their manifesto was not great.

fair enough the opposition's manifesto wasnt the best, but FF are slowly but surely starting to erode theirs...the lastest is that the 200,000 extra madical cards that had been promised for January will not become available due to "the worsening state of the public finances"

Keeping him in the job because you dont think there is anybody else to fill the role is hardly solid grounds to ahng onto the guy....he has grossly mismanaged the public finances and now when things are going pear shaped its the public that will suffer!!

If there is only one sloid reason to keep him as minister for finance its to force him to sort out the mess he has helped create or admit defeat and resign!

DiscoStu

just remember these are not "cutbacks" the're "adjustments"

lynch the fcuker. he squandered every penny that this country made in the last 5 years.

Originally posted by Thomas
[Bthe fact that it is common for a minister to over spend for political reasons is hardly a defense of mcgreevy's accounting ability.

also, saying that it could have been worse is a mute point - ww2 could have been worse with someone other than hitler in control but that hardly means that hitler was a good leader does it?! [/B]

*cough* what I'm really saying is he deserves to stay there for sucessfully pulling the wool over everybodys eyes last may.
Counting the PD's and Fianna Fáil independents , there was a majority ahern government re-elected on a par with Jack Lynch's 1977 result.
It was a master stroke , to have us all so happy, that we were so willing with our number one and two votes.
And what has changed in five short months??
But did he pull any wool at all?
What Mr McCreevy spent was there for all to see back in May, but we weren't interested, in short, we all felt too good.
The big difference now is of course that there has been a global economic slow down,choking last years budgets revenue expectations.
It's decimated the pension fund, McCreevy was investing in the markets for us-clearly he wasn't expecting that, but neither was I, and maybe I would have paid a little more tax myself and not done extra pension contributions,I'd have been better off.

For sure slag off the minister, but don't expect any magic from a replacement, they'll make mistakes too.
mm

DMC

I was wondering when we would get McCreevy and Hitler in the same post :rolleyes:

One only has to compare with Gordon Brown in the UK. He's just discovered he's in the same boat, tax revenues are way down, economy not peforming like he had estimated for. Germany is not keeping within Euro-zone spending limits.... it goes on.

Its not just us folks.... have a look at the wider picture...

dahamsta

also, saying that it could have been worse is a mute point



It's 'moot'. MOOT! Christ!

I'm with DisgoStu, nail up the arrogant little prick. He's taken a tiger, turned it into a pussy and pushed it firmly towards becoming the smelly, scrawny, moth-eaten bag of piss that Fianna Fáil created the last time they were allowed play with the country. There mightn't be much better in opposition out there, but that's no excuse for having a tosser like McCreevy in charge of the purse. It's like giving your credit card to a degenerate gambler.

I have a hammer and nails, call me when you need me. I have other, more interesting implements ready for his friend.

adam

Cork

I think that if the Irish people were so outraged aganist the government - they would have shoot the Nice Treaty down.

Cutbacks will happen this year - We are into year 1 of a 5 year government.

This government has time enough to be generous. Winning a third term is very much on the cards.

It is one thing Bertie and Tony Blair have in Common.

Ian Duncan and our Enda have more in common than you would expect.

seamus

The news this morning said it all perfectly in one line.......

"This is the first time in years that Mr. McCreevy has had to take back more than he's given away."

He's been screwing us. I saw it the last 2 years, that he was squandering our money like some knacker who's just won the lotto. Last year, he took money from public funds, i.e. money that wasn't income last year, to fuel his pre-election budget and make himself come out smelling of roses. And the electorate were happy to let him, because they didn't have to pay any more tax and could continue wasting their own money on 3L Pajeros and frivilous luxury items.

Bertie claims in the Dáil yesterday;

"Mr. McCreevy is responsible for the immense growth we have experienced over the last few years".

****ing arse! Our economy had been on the brink of booming since 1991. Yet Bertie and Charlie step in when everything's going fine and come out looking like the golden boy saviours of Ireland. No, it's time for them all to go down.....

Chaos-Engine

Why is the opposition so critical of Charlie?? He is a great man. And in my opinion one of the best politicians in Irish politics since Charlie Hahey and DeV...

Those that proposed no-confidence in Charlie are traitors to Ireland and should be treated as such.
Can you call yourself Irish and say no to Charlie.

You owe him. He deserves the right to reduce the gambling tax in return for a half million euro tap at Paddy Powers and his debt cleared....

Charlie for FF Leader

Chaos-Engine

I'm very thankful that he is maintaining the status quo and keeping us higher more important classes up.

"The gap between rish and poor is widening" is the best news I heard all year....

Cork

****ing arse! Our economy had been on the brink of booming since 1991. Yet Bertie and Charlie step in when everything's going fine and come out looking like the golden boy saviours of Ireland. No, it's time for them all to go down.....

Eaten bread is soon forgotten.

Of course - we need efficency is our Health & Education services - too much money is being squandered.

Look at all those Health Boards, Look at the short school year, all those needless county, city & Town Councils.


It is about time that - the state became efficent.

Why can't you get your Driving licence at the post office? Why can't you pay parking fines there? Why can't you buy parking discs there?

Something had to give.

I think - Hiouse prices are the biggest bubble in our economy - the last Green bottle left on the wall. Who will people blame when they drop? Charlie McCreevy of course.

Anybody but themselves

daveirl

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seamus

Originally posted by Cork
Who will people blame when they drop? Charlie McCreevy of course.

Anybody but themselves

Well, as Pat Rabbitte said, Charlie McCreevy got us into this mess, and now he's blaming us and hurting us, getting us out of this mess. I do totally blame the people. They were far too wrapped up in their own happy happy land, and went and voted McCreevy back in.

McCreevy ethos is "when I have money I spend it, when I don't have it, I don't". As I said, akin to a traveller winning the lotto. And this man is supposed to be an accountant?! What kind of messed ethos is that? When you have money, you spend a little more and save a little more. When you don't have money, you spend the same amount, and use what you've saved.

But of course, McCreevy has ****ed all that up with his insistance on blowing our cash over the last few years. Now he's cutting us drastically back, despite the fact that we can easily absorb minor loans and higher taxes. And cutting the first time buyers grant? WTF? This guy hasn't a clue what's best for this country.

dahamsta

Well since our economic troubles are part of a global downturn I don't think it was his fault.

As sceptre said, McCreevy's spending was totally over the top. Not only that, it was money /badly/ spent, as our ongoing comms crisis demonstrates (although Korea knocks the "global" argument on the head just a tad). Seriously, I accept that the current problems aren't completely McCreevy's fault, but he has a lot to answer for. But he won't, because, as I mentioned, he's an arrogant little prick. Some Irish people admire that, I think it's reprehensible for a public representative not to answer for his actions. The man is a liar. There's nothing admirable about that.

[ Christ, I'm starting to sound like that other wanker. I'll shut up now. ]

adam

sceptre

Originally posted by dahamsta
As sceptre said

Ah, credit where credit is due - the "real" seamus (as opposed to the one who decided that the name his mother gave him wasn't good enough online:)) said that. Couldn't have said it better myself though so I've nothing much to add. I'll just read what seamus said and pretend that Seamus (me) said it:D (it's what I would have said anyway)

It's as simple as this: McCreevy has been saying for the last five years that the credit for the new Irish economy should go to him. Now he's saying that the downturn was caused by other things. In other words, when things go well it's down to him and his buddies but when the public finances to wallop it's someone else's responsibility (or worse: we should /all/ have known he was just buying the election and it's really our fault).

Personally I've thought the economy was running McCreevy around for the past five years and that he's never had any control over it (I've backed it up with economic theory in other threads so I won't do it again). He's put himself in this position by seeking the glory and praise. Tough, Charlie. The only downside is that his arrogance will affect us all. Responsible people know that you don't spend all the money you have (and some you don't) - there just might be a rainy day tomorrow. Tomorrow is here - anything in the piggy bank? Thought not.

bonkey

Originally posted by dahamsta
The man is a liar. There's nothing admirable about that.

What has he lied about? Note - for him to be a liar, he must be aware that what he is saying is not true. I'm not trying to deride the man, but I've already taken a stance about posters calling people liars. Back it up, or rescind the comment please.

Much and all as people might dislike the man, precious few complaints were heard when he was throwing money about left right and centre, except perhaps that he might have spent less on X and more on Y. No-one really took a strong stance that he actually spend less. I definitely cant remember hearing anyone complain that the tax cut they received was too big.

jc

Meh

Originally posted by bonkey
What has he lied about?

Wasn't there a government memo sent round just after the election, telling ministers cuts would have to be made? After the government had said repeatedly during the campaign that there were "no plans for any cuts"? Maybe not an outright lie, but certainly misleading...

dahamsta

The Fianna Fail General Election campaign was one huge lie, and the Finance Minister had a huge part to play in it. The entire campaign was built around assertions about Finance and the economy, 95% of which have been reneged upon. McCreevy is responsible for the mis- and disinformation.

It could be argued that Bertie told him what to do, or even that McCreevy's handlers are responsible, but the buck stops with McCreevy, and he appears to delight in that, so let him take the criticism too. I view his behaviour as deceptive, and although you mightn't want to use the L word, I find it appropriate.

To me, it's crystal clear.

adam

daveirl

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daveirl

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aine

Well since our economic troubles are part of a global downturn I don't think it was his fault.

that may be true but still and all its a government's job to try and stabilise a country's economic cycle not agitate it! if the global turn down hadnt induced our current state of public finances the FF/PD coalition would have done it soon enough anyway! they are trying to establish a system here that were are just not yet economically ready for!

Cork

Originally posted by dahamsta
The Fianna Fail General Election campaign was one huge lie, and the Finance Minister had a huge part to play in it. The entire campaign was built around assertions about Finance and the economy, 95% of which have been reneged upon. McCreevy is responsible for the mis- and disinformation.

It could be argued that Bertie told him what to do, or even that McCreevy's handlers are responsible, but the buck stops with McCreevy, and he appears to delight in that, so let him take the criticism too. I view his behaviour as deceptive, and although you mightn't want to use the L word, I find it appropriate.

To me, it's crystal clear.

adam

Nonsence - All political partys has access to data from the Department Of Finance. Matt Coopper & David McWilliams highlighted that the economy was in for a nose dive.

Yet - Fg and Labour out did themselves with their lavish manifestos.

Originally posted by Cork
Nonsence - All political partys has access to data from the Department Of Finance. Matt Coopper & David McWilliams highlighted that the economy was in for a nose dive.

Yet - Fg and Labour out did themselves with their lavish manifestos.

Thats a fair point actually, either somebody was asleep or we were all drunk on the Tiger punch, not to be bothered with forensically examining what we were voting for.

(Indeed, even for a month or two afterwards, many were debating whether we should be spending all the money we were supposed to have at our disposal on the Bertie Bowl or do the moral thing and reform the health service, build more school extensions etc...)

Independent newspapers , with their huge circulation weren't exactly running thinly veiled articles urging us to Vote for John Bruton et al.

We were all fairly happy and returned the same old bunch, for lack of a decent alternative or want of one.
Cork is right if he is saying that if a rainbow coalition was returned last may , they would by now be dropping most of the promises in their election manifesto like hot cakes.

Even if there was a Rainbow there from '97 to 02 and they had diverted most of the monies gone to the state pension fund,SSIA's etc to the health service, political croneyism would have continued , meaning only probably a slightly better health today due to bureocracy.
We would still be facing serious cutbacks at the hands of falling exchequer revenue due to the current world slump.
mm

Cork

David McWillians this evening on the Last word said that we were like a West African coutry - getting back capital expenditure while maintaining big armies.

I think that the bench marking needs to be scrapped in the National interest. All health boards need to be scrapped & health & education need complete re-organisation.

Resources need to be spent efficently. But at the same time - Services need to be improved for the monies that are spent on them.

Will Bertie take on the Unions? Hardly.

Everything looks pretty bleak.

Spending will go up through the roof - if bench marking is paid & services will suffer.

Originally posted by Cork

Everything looks pretty bleak.

Ah don't say that Cork.
It actually says a lot for what it is possible to achieve in this country that, despite a major global slowdown we're still at the top of the Euro growth ladder
Your chances of getting some kind of a decent paying job here are much better than in many other western countries.
Peoples expectations have risen over the last decade as the country kept on pumping at the pace it was.
These cutbacks though they are not nice, aren't a sign that our Economy is in freefall and heading for the abyss that was the 1980's, with high unemployment,high taxes, high inflation, high emmigration etc.

You should put the thing in perspective, what we are seeing in my view is a minister governing.
Far better that these things are done now than later.
mm

daveirl

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Cork

I think that there is so much waste in the system - What are all those health boards doing? Teachers getting away with short school years? Needless Roads being built etc. Funds are being squandered. The Government has to take on the unions or else our economy will be in freefall.

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
Funds are being squandered.

Well, that's certainly true. To be fair (and before I get accused of going on an anti-FF rant) it could be true of any government in the past 20 years but it's certainly true over the past five years.

McCreevy has little or no direct control over how, say, the Minister for Health spends the money he gives him. Ministers/chief civil servants prepare their estimates for the year, get told to bugger off, make new estimates, get money, spend it any way they wish. It's a bit simplistic but broadly speaking it's true.

So discussing the general wastage in this (or any other government) - the money wasted on unlit fibre corridors, the unnecessary localised structure of some of our health boards (agree with you there), particular road expenditure, underground car parks for TDs - all these are discussions for another thread. Mc Creevy doesn't approve or deny expenditure for these particular things. Building Ceaucescu stadiums in west Dublin is another thing strictly speaking not controlled by McCreevy but it's a single project with such a potential large entry on the books that effectively he just had to deny funding to the particular department to block it.

The one "wastage" issue people might have over which McCreeevy wields some control is the benchmarking one. If people want to discuss that one here it's at least relevant (personally I think it's been necessary, it will happen and the most McCreevy can do is delay it)

This has been a fairly good discussion so far - wouldn't want to see it dragged off topic this early.

daveirl

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Cork

The one "wastage" issue people might have over which McCreeevy wields some control is the benchmarking one. If people want to discuss that one here it's at least relevant (personally I think it's been necessary, it will happen and the most McCreevy can do is delay it)

I agree and it will cause government spending to go though the roof.

I think the Government will not take on the Unions. And Unions will not quash the benchmaking report for the national interest.

If this report is implemented - Public service unions will be out on strike looking for relativity.

I think the Government has to take on the unions, They will not & we will be back to High spending, high taxes and an economy taking a nose dive.

daveirl

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dahamsta

Ah, credit where credit is due - the "real" seamus ... said that.

Oops-a-daisy, sorry about that seamus. And seamus.

adam

Cork

the motion should have been after the book of estimates or even after the Budget. QUOTE]

Thats the opposition for you. I'd have no Confidence in them before the Government.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Thats the opposition for you. I'd have no Confidence in them before the Government.

Yeah, but you constantly seem to complain that you have no faith in the government either, so I fail to see your point.

And yes, I've heard your "best of a bad lot" platitude before. It still doesnt cut water. You have no faith in teh opposition, and no faith in the government. Proclaiming one as better then the other is nonsensical.

jc

I've just been listening to Joe Duffy.*warning- man's blood is boiling-end warning*

Basically on that show, an opposition TD said they had a letter from Mr McCreevy at the last election saying the economy was fine.

Was that the extent of their investigations?? or did they secretly know how little was left in the Kitty? and didn't want to mention it as the voters drunk on the tiger punch would firmly bash any party talking of cutbacks?
If they did know then theres no sense in them moaning about it as they are sharing some guilt for not telling the public and presenting the facts and figures last may.

If they did not even do the research, imagine how bad a government they would be.

There are a lot of people upset about the first time buyers grant, but don't builders add that onto the price of these houses anyway? Therefore it was a grant to line the builders pockets not the house buyers, an obvious target for a cutback.
mm

Paulg

The government should get rid of the interest tax relief for investers AGAIN. God knows why they brought it back last year.

Cork

Originally posted by bonkey
Yeah, but you constantly seem to complain that you have no faith in the government either, so I fail to see your point.

And yes, I've heard your "best of a bad lot" platitude before. It still doesnt cut water. You have no faith in teh opposition, and no faith in the government. Proclaiming one as better then the other is nonsensical.

jc

I think the government deserved to get re- elected. I like FF. I voted "NO" to Nice. I disagree with FF on many things but they are many things I like about them.

Nobody is perfect & within a organisation like FF - they are many openions.

We all don't follow the party line on everything.

But - truthfully - I am not a FF member but I vote for them more often than not.

Originally posted by Cork
But - truthfully - I am not a FF member but I vote for them more often than not.

*cough* and slightly off topic, you mean you voted for some one other than the party at some time:eek:
To be honest in my opinion theres beggar all difference between FG and FF, even on NI policy.
The only perceived difference is their stand on the civil war nearly a hundred years ago.
mm

Cork

There are big differences bewteen all partys. I think FF are better on both Northern Ireland and the Social patnership.

In my openion, FG are a party made up in my area by big farmers and business men.

Where as working people vote FF.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
In my openion, FG are a party made up in my area by big farmers and business men.

Where as working people vote FF.

Your opinion is not only continuing to go off-topic, but its a load of toss.

Look at the percentage that FG have in government - you're telling me that they get this from the votes of what can only be described as a group which makes up less than 1% of the voting population?

And no, I'm not interested in hearing a qualified "well, I actually meant...." explanation of that previous remark.

It is impossible from a logistics point of view, it is wrong, and it is offtopic. Drop it please.

jc

Cork

I agree that we are going off the topic - You should read John Waters views of the differences bewteen FF & FG.

Getting back to the topic. All political partys had access to the books before the election. They all produced giveaway manifestos.

Matt Cooper, Shane Ross, David McWilliams etc all pointed out the economy did not look too rosey.

The dogs in the street knew of the problem with government revenue.

seamus

Originally posted by Cork
The dogs in the street knew of the problem with government revenue.

But the dogs in the street weren't appearing on TV and going around to people's houses, lying through their teeth. To say that the electorate should have known is no justification of the lies. When a politician comes around to your house telling you stuff, you take it all with a pinch of salt. But you simply expect him to be colourful with his truths, not out-and-out lying.

I agree that all parties were equally to blame in pushing the 'economy is great' line, but after 5 years of unparalled income and growth, we had feck all to show for it, thanks to Charlie, and no-one in his party saw fit to point that out.

Cork

But the dogs in the street weren't appearing on TV

Matt Cooper and others all analysed the manifestos. I think the information was there. Maybe - these articles were confined to the Business Sections of newspapers.

But - The information was out there.