Nice from another angle

swiss

Right.

This is a product of my twisted psyche, a little experiment I always wanted to try. Whenever I've engaged in a serious political or moral debate, I've usually tried to stand back and view it from an opposing perspective. Sometimes it changes my mind, sometimes it makes me even more entrenched in my original view.

So, in that spirit (and also to provide a little levity to a sombre and protracted debate) I think it would be a good idea to start a thread where people debate the treaty from a different position.

Here I go:

The Nice treaty is a step backwards for Ireland and Europe as a whole. Europes contempt for our soverign right to national self determination has already been made abundantly apparant, when we were pressurised into abrogating the democratic result of the first referendum on the issue, and forced to rerun under the farcical assumption that we didn't "understand the issues". This is both an insult to our intelligence and to our soverign right to determine the fate of our country.

Given Europe's desire for closer integration, despite the reservations made clear by our refusal of the last treaty, it is wholly unsurprising that this treaty places less and less power in the hands of smaller states, instead collating it into the hands of large, economically powerful member states such as Germany and France. This pan-European federal axis' stated goal is to establish a federal Europe.

The Irish people, having been ruled by hundreds of years by a Colonial power, have no desire to be 'ruled' over again, no matter how well meaning the EU espouse themselves to be. Make no mistake about it, this treaty cedes power from Ireland and smaller states, bringing us ever closer to a federal europe. Our loss of a veto in several key areas, including common commercial policy, will mean that policies that favour large countries will be forced upon countries like Ireland. This is compounded by our loss to an automatic right to appoint a commissioner, ceding even more power to unaccountable European institutions.

Next Saturday, I ask you not just to vote against the Nice treaty. I ask you to vote to reaffirm our soverign voice, to send a message to Europe that we do not wish to see an ever increasing shift in power to the larger states, and that we do not want to be party to a European Army that has leeway to take part in any 'Crisis management' organisations that it sees fit.

YES to Democracy. NO to Nice.

*ahem*

Typedef

Clearly in the history of the human species there has always been a drive toward war and derision. With the European Union there comes a chance for humankind to transcend the borders placed by millenia of simian grouping that has given rise to the nation state.

Only by accepting that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one will Europe be able to bring itself out of the hundreds of years of long and protracted war that has engulfed the continent.

Thus Ireland should recognise that in the interests of Europe and ultimately in the interests of the Irish nation, that is in fact only logical to conglomerate with the other nations in Europe, because such a bold step, the act of doing so, itself negates the supposed national derision that would placate such a move.

The role of the Irish government is to make hard choices for the sake of the country and if those choices entail the greater good of Europe, then logically as Ireland is a full and respected member of this inner scantum of Europe, what is in the European greater good is in the Irish greater good. That is why in the national interest (derived from the greater European interest) it is only logical for Ireland to give up some of it's influence in Europe to facilitate the efficient running of the same, perhaps this is not fair to a nation, but Europe is about making all the citizens equal, not protecting the antiquated vestibules of the nation state. That is why, as we are all just people, it is only right to move towards a one man one vote Europe, that is why the Nice Treaty must be re-run and why the right answer must be extracted from Ireland, for the good of Ireland and ultimately for the good of Europe and Ireland in Europe.

Yes to Europe, Yes to Peace, Yes to Nice.

[Please note I ordinarily don't say mad things like the above, but I'll play along]

The East coast has been suffering heavy rain, thunder and hail for the last couple of days clearly this is a sign from God that we should vote no.
Global warming and rising sea levels are further examples of the folly of capitalism and increasing industrialisation.
Indeed my mother was told by the local priest here that the ECB is the pawn of the devil encouraging unmarried people to move in together by lowering interest rates so they can buy houses so she is voting no.
vote no to Nice*cough*
mm

Our man in Havana

LOL!

bonkey

Ireland as a nation cannot survive profitably on its own. It requires membership of some form of community of union whereby it can join its voice (economic and political) with others in a balanced manner, so that all can prosper together.

This logic was the basis of our entry into the EEC, and our continued membership as it evolved into the EC and then the EU.

To date, this has worked to a reasonable extent. Ireland, despite having the 2nd (or maybe 3rd) worst GDP/Capita in the EU considers itself to have a reasonably healthy economy. It is unquestionable that we owe this at least partly to our membership of the EEC/EC/EU, and the structures these organisations have operated under.

However, the Nice treaty will change this. Despite the world being in the throes of a recession, the EU wishes to expand - to add further pressure to its currently shaky economy and include a new 10 nations - effectively adding and additional 33% of its current size. Not one of these nations is economically comparable to the poorest member nation at present.

Furthermore, this shift in demographics will result in Ireland and other nations who are relatively less well off at present being considered amongst the richer nations after the expansion, resulting in these struggling economies being hit by a double-whammy of loss-of-subsidies combined with a requirement to subsidise others.

Similarly, whilst we are losing our veto, we are also losing much of our voice. Whilst both are requirements of expansion, they effectively mean that Ireland's voice will become marginal - hardly an ideal situation when our economy is far more fragile than most of our current co-members, and is about to get crucified by the post-Nice expansions.

The EU should progress. It needs to consolidate. However, it also needs to do this carefully and slowly. There is no benefit in sinking ourselves in our rush to save the Eastern European nations.

And even if we do wish to save them, what would wrong with a temporary two-tier EU? The second-tier nations (the applicant members) would still be better off than they are today, and once they had reached a certain level, they could be brought up to "full member status". I'm not suggesting that we try and exploit them - I'm suggesting that we make sure that helping them is viable in the long term. It benefits no-one for us to try and fail, which is what I feel we are in grave danger of doing at present.

Nice is too ambitious to be incorporated at once. There are too many nations being admitted simultaneously. The EU is aiming to give them too much all at once. The timing of this aid couldnt be worse - it comes at a time when every developed economy in the world is suffering one setback after another.

It is too much, at the wrong time. On these grounds, it needs to be rejected, so that a more secure future can be negotiated for all of us.

jc - see, you can even be pro Europe, pro expansion, pro Federalism, and still be anti Nice

p.s. Great idea Swiss.....