€ircon in Cahoots with Porn Dialer companies ??

spongebob

sceptre

Copying (rather than moving) this to Nets/Comms

Frank Grimes

Maybe people actually make phone calls to these countries? Strange, I know.
Anyone thick enough to install one of those diallers deserves to be hit with a huge phonebill anyway.

the Guru

Ar'nt those diallers put on porn site sites by hackers (and if used the hackers make alot of money) and thanks to all the holes in Windows they download in active x and the user dosent know until the bill comes in Change your security setting and dont be looking at porn

Turner

I think its called modem hijacking and its perfectly legal. It wouldnt catch out most of us here but to your average n00b or male teen it just might.

spongebob

a bit of active x (the IE install on demand feature set in control panel) and a .ics file and you are paying €ircon €3 a minute to 'see that video' or 'download a sneak preview of a game' and thats apart from the pr0n by uninfromed consent or the casino muppets.

€ircon know that 99% of ALL cals from ireland to these countries is probab;yt fraud and they will put the price of it up in 3 weeks so they can make a bigger cut of the fraud.

It is disgusting business practice.

In the UK a BT customer has to ASK for and GET a PIN number B$ they can ring premium numbers while in Ireland it is possible for some dimbo teenager to break the family bank with calls to Tarot lines and all that sh1te.

€ircon should have an opt in mechanism for 15nn and pr0n dialler countries. I have no objections to those who explicitly opt in and get a pin number so they can ring thesew numbers.

M

jd

Originally posted by Muck
€ircon know that 99% of ALL cals from ireland to these countries is probab;yt fraud and they will put the price of it up in 3 weeks so they can make a bigger cut of the fraud.

It is disgusting business practice.

M

I dunno much about the manner in which telcos charge each other for international calls
but..

If eircom are getting charged back a lot of money for routing these calls, surely they have to make sure they are at least covering their costs.

as an aside..
If you are stupid enough to download a porn dialler on your computer, i have very little sympathy

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Muck
€3 seems a bit like profiteering

M

Not being smart, but this isn't the UK.
£2 works out at €3.19.
All the telcos base their charges on what it costs them to carry the call over international providers afaik. So on the less popular destinations, it's going to cost the telco more so they pass that onto the customer.

spongebob

Frank

€2 not £2

TYpical prices from many other carriers in the UK to those destinations is in the order of UK 0.60 or €1

So why do we pay €3 ?

Frank Grimes

The PIN number is a good idea I guess. You can get those sort of numbers blocked altogether anyway if you call Eircom.

spongebob

My understanding is that you can have
local call only
incoming calls only
or
all calls Frank.

Frank Grimes

As far as I'm aware, you can get all premium numbers barred and possibly international calls.
I'm not 100% sure, I've never had to do it.

DMC

Yep, Frank is right, you can block any group of numbers you like. In circumstances where calls are of a malicious nature, you can get them blocked, even down to the individual number.

spongebob

Firstly there should be an opt in to these numbers, they should not be on by default...like roaming is not active until you have had your mobile contract for 6 months and then AFTER you ask for it.

Secondly, the intent behind blocking is precautionary and not bacause of provable malicious activity.....or a police complaint.

Thirdly, there is nothing on the €ircon web site am I that surprised?

M

Frank Grimes

Why should they block these numbers by default though?
It's people's own responsiblity to make sure they're not dialling these mad numbers, they have the option to block them if they want to.

the Guru

Originally posted by Frank_Grimes
As far as I'm aware, you can get all premium numbers barred and possibly international calls.
I'm not 100% sure, I've never had to do it.

All numbers can be barred If you have normal land line it can be done in the exchange but if you have a PBX it has to be done on the system .

Also these numbers are set up for these purposes thats how the Porn companies / hackers / casino lines make money from the diallers so either step up your security or dont be looking at dodgy porn.............Boys

DMC

Originally posted by Muck
Firstly there should be an opt in to these numbers, they should not be on by default...like roaming is not active until you have had your mobile contract for 6 months and then AFTER you ask for it.

And then we'll be back to the dark days of A-B buttons and going through operators! Why would Eircom offer a restricted phone service? There would be compliants that this would be a nanny state, calls being monitored etc. It is up to the user to block if there are certain numbers they simply don't want to dial.

If they did block numbers from when you get the phone line in, I'd say you'd still be up there complaining to Eircom that you can't!

Damned if you do, damned if you dont. Sheesh!

spongebob

A single call to one of these numbers could cost €4300 A DAY for chrissakes.

I am talking about an opt-in arrangement for band 13 and premium numbers costing between 50c and €3 a minute.

You lot are obviously pleased that some adhoc opt out arrangement exists while I believe that no modern telecoms system with a smidge of antifraud software should allow anyone to clock up more than €100 a day to any number anywhere.

A Gold Creditcard wouldn't necessarily give you that much leeway to damage your finances.

M

DMC

Originally posted by Muck
You lot are obviously pleased that some adhoc opt out arrangement exists while I believe that no modern telecoms system with a smidge of antifraud software should allow anyone to clock up more than €100 a day to any number anywhere.

The point that I'm making is that Eircom or any phone provider for that matter will not differentiate a call between Maggie ringing Father Paddy on the missions in the South Pacific and a porn dialler. Nor should it want to. What you are trying to do is make Eircom into a soviet style phone company, listening in on calls and tapping.

Eircom and every landline Western European phone company give you universal access to world's phone numbers. You have the choice to block numbers, your choice.

The phone company will assume that its a normal call up until you get your phone bill. Then you can argue the toss with them, and then you probably find out that you will have to cough up, cos you downloaded that dialler and its your own silly fault.

End result: The fault lies between the monitor and the chair.

BuffyBot

Have to agree with DMC here. Why should Eircom differentiate between these calls? No reason at all. If you download a dialler, thats your tough.

spongebob

Diego Garcia is not a country, it is a virtual operator with a country code and an ingress tariff. The population were deported in toto by the Brits in the 1960s to make way for B52 bombers.

€ircon have it in band13

Tuvala sold their ISO code and their TLd (.tv ) to the highest bidders. .See

There are no Father Paddies at the end of these lines, merely scum capital. If you wanna ring it you can opt in at €3 or get swiftcall for half that or so. Nobody in Ireland has any legitimate business calling Tuvalu and paying €3 a minute for the dubious priviledge. If they were Tory Island I could see their point.

It is a sleazy and underhand way of making money from the gullible..

M

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Muck
A single call to one of these numbers could cost €4300 A DAY for chrissakes.

Don't spend all day listening to a talking clock then.

You lot are obviously pleased that some adhoc opt out arrangement exists while I believe that no modern telecoms system with a smidge of antifraud software should allow anyone to clock up more than €100 a day to any number anywhere

In fairness, you're the only one who seems to have a problem with it.
Simply, the telcos offer a service to people. It is the persons responsibility that they do not dial crazy €3/min porn numbers or whatever.
We're all living in the big bad world, people should look out for themselves and not rely on someone else to do it for them.

DMC

Firstly, Tuvalu leased the .tv TLD so they could build hospitals and shore up their little islands from global warming and suchlike. Who is to say in 10 years, that they get more money from it!

Yep, there are no Father Paddy's at the end of those lines, but you are inconveniencing those who want to make a legitimate call to these places, just because some fool clicked yes to "do you want to connect to hot and sexy chicks???" denies the right for folk to ring those numbers? Hmmmm, not a chance! Swiftcall and companies like that are cheaper, but its an open market. The choice is there.

And how do you know no one has a legitimate reason to ring Tuvalu? That sweeping generalisation kills your argument stone dead. You don't know when you might have to, and its nice to think that you can pick up the phone and ring that place straight away, without having to get through to customer services and enabling the function, could take 24 hours etc etc. Bollocks to that, I wanna ring Father Paddy now!!!

It is a sleazy and underhand way of making money from the gullible..

Remember, Eircom is not your mammy. And if mammy found out you got a porn dialler....

spongebob

There is yet another argument for the opt-in mechanism....that is the credit argument.

A person is granted credit based primarily on their Proven ability to pay, that is why teenagers are not given Gold Visa cards.....too much potential grief.

Speaking as one who has helped a cleanup after a teenager managed to clock up a €400 bill to tarot lines ...in a week (got the phone changed to local calls only) I am probably more aware than the rest of you of the damage that unsolicited and unwanted credit can do to a family, especially a family on a tight budget as was the case there.

Can anybody here point me to a single piece of Eircom literature that informs people of how to control costs on their own phone line? It ain't on the web site thats for sure. It ain't in the marketing guff in the standard phone book. It MAY be in the customer charter but thats not on their website.

I am a firm believer in the opt in mechanism and of enabling the consumer to control their own phone line. Turning on Tuvalu and it ilk by DEFAULT is contrary to that. DamoDMC ....you are no doubt sufficiently aware of what you are doing to respond to voice prompt on the lines of:

'This number is not accessible at present from your line, please contact Eircom customer services to enable it'

If its your line by all means ring them and turn it on....if its your mammys line DO ask her first because its the polite thing to do even if you are a teenager.

I also think that one shouldnt inject heroin because it makes your face spotty and pale. I never heard of a €4000 euro a day smack habit either but would equally be opposed to anybody being put in that situation on credit!

M

Frank Grimes

Muck, this is starting to go around in circles. I'm not going to think any different no matter how many sob stories you come up with.
I'm sure that €400 bill your friend got hit with wasn't pleasant. But the bottom line is the teenager should have had more cop on. It's them to blame, not Eircom.

Can anybody here point me to a single piece of Eircom literature that informs people of how to control costs on their own phone line? It ain't on the web site thats for sure. It ain't in the marketing guff in the standard phone book. It MAY be in the customer charter but thats not on their website.

I'm on Esat, I don't remember being forced fed this information from them either. It's in the public domain. Go look for yourself.

I also think that one shouldnt inject heroin because it makes your face spotty and pale. I never heard of a €4000 euro a day smack habit either but would equally be opposed to anybody being put in that situation on credit!

That's a ridiculous analogy.

spongebob

inter alia

That's a ridiculous analogy.

Find me an appropiate analogy so.

M

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Muck
Find me an appropiate analogy so.

I think I've made my points on this subject.
People have various options to prevent this sort of stuff happening, it's up to them to find out. It's not up to the companies to mammy people.
To be honest, this is the wrong board for anti/pro telco rants.

spongebob

It has turned into a discussion on Libertarian principles with regard to the individual.

I am less laissez faire libertarian than many in here and do not like those who prey on the ignorant and gullible....

Nobody in here is ignorant and gullible, what we discussed was how you protect those who are from the consequences thereof. If society exists at all it is there to help care for the weaker members...I see some of €ircons activities as analagous to loan sharking sanctioned by a pissweak regulator.

Nothing posted here has proven otherwise in a cogent manner.

I never posted this message in here anyway, Sceptre copied it in from the IoffL forum.....should make him read it now

M

Frank Grimes

It has turned into a discussion on Libertarian principles with regard to the individual.

I don't think it has, it looks more like an anti Eircom rant.

I am less laissez faire libertarian than many in here and do not like those who prey on the ignorant and gullible....

As has been posted, if people download these diallers or ring a speaking clock for 24 hours straight, they deserve a huge bill. At least they might learn to take some resposibility for their actions.

Nothing posted here has proven otherwise in a cogent manner.

A few of us have posted valid arguments, you don't seem to accept that there's another point of view.

I see some of €ircons activities as analagous to loan sharking sanctioned by a pissweak regulator.

There are other telcos, as I have said, I'm a customer of one of those and they don't stand over my shoulder each time I make a phonecall.

spongebob

As you said

There are other telcos, as I have said, I'm a customer of one of those and they don't stand over my shoulder each time I make a phonecall.

Would this be one of those informed choice things.

What would you advise somebody who was not the sharpest on the 'informed' bit or the 'choice' bit, never mind the 2 of them together. Not having a phone at all would be a trite answer!

As a matter of interest.

M

jd

Originally posted by Muck
It has turned into a discussion on Libertarian principles with regard to the individual.


M

No it hasn't. I'd be a long way from being a libertarian a la Ms Rynd[1] etc, but I still think people should be to some extent responsible for their actions..
jd
[1] i'd nearly go so far as to say you are insulting people who disagree wth you..

spongebob

It is a matter of pride to civilised countries that usury has been controlled and largely eliminated and that the 'consumer' has 'rights'

Not creating opt-in arrangements for ferociously expensive telephonenumber ranges drives a coach and four thru the progress against usury and predatory practises that took centuries to implement.

Please tell me, WHY are €ircon RIGHT to in doing this....?????????

I say they are WRONG. I have only asked for consensual opt-in and not universal blocking ..... try to remember that!


M

BuffyBot

So, what your are basically saying is because someone has made a gob****e out of themselves and ran up a €400 bill ringing Psychic Peg's hotline, Eircom should now pick and choose who the general public are allowed to ring, and who they can't. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

People are responsible for their own bills. Why should eircom, as a service provider, care where anyone rings - it's their role as a service provider to connect the calls, not to judge to whom and where it's going, just in case Mr X from Ballygobackwards has downloaded a dialler from the interweb.

For once, if Eircom insisted Mr X pay, I'd actually agree.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Muck
What would you advise somebody who was not the sharpest on the 'informed' bit or the 'choice' bit, never mind the 2 of them together. Not having a phone at all would be a trite answer!

The only thing relevant to this board I would advise is not to download porn diallers.

It is a matter of pride to civilised countries that usury has been controlled and largely eliminated and that the 'consumer' has 'rights'

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but the consumer does have rights. They can block the numbers if they wish.

Please tell me, WHY are €ircon RIGHT to in doing this....?????????

Because, for the 100th time, people are responsible for their own actions.

spongebob

In Law

Because, for the 100th time, people are responsible for their own actions.

Teenagers !!!!!!!!!!!

Gwan Frank

M

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Muck
Teenagers !!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, their parents or whoever the billpayer is.

spongebob

Eircoms policy...after some teeth pulling...amounts to this.

Other than a barring request to all 15nn numbers (which is free) it costs

€29 PER REQUEST including VAT

and

€3.70 PER Bill extra rental if any barring request other than a 15nn request is in place....not €3.70 per request but all requests.

So if I only bar Diego Garcia it will cost me €51 in the first year alone.....good business for €ircon if you ask me.

M

Frank Grimes

So if I only bar Diego Garcia it will cost me €51 in the first year alone.....good business for €ircon if you ask me

Don't bar Diego Garcia then.
You should really post this stuff in IrelandOffline, this has nothing to do with Net/Comms at this stage.

spongebob

You've been a great help.

I reconfigured the LCR menu uin the Meridian yesterday....couldn't be bothered changing it.

M

sceptre

Originally posted by Frank_Grimes
You should really post this stuff in IrelandOffline, this has nothing to do with Net/Comms at this stage.

(he did - I copied it over)

If Verb feels like moving it back I'll welcome it with open arms.

With that in mind...

I'm pretty disappointed with Eircom charging for number blocking like this. I'm not going to go on an anti-Eirocm rant on this one, I suppose it's their choice but it's pretty poor service.

It's fine and dandy to say "if you download a dialler you deserve (or at least are asking for ) it" but TBH not everyone using the Net is someone who even knows what a dialler program is. It's a pretty poor anti-libertarian argument I'll admit but it is something that could affect people who don't know any better. It's not in the same category as parents monitoring their children's Net access to make sure they're not browsing porn late at night - I've bseen some of these dialler downloads on music sites.

It's not the same thing as someone dialing a 00-592 number, for example (Guyana isn't in the new band in any case) - that's a wilful decision someone makes. A dialler can install itself on your system almost without the user noticing (people click "yes" by acident on CometCursor - there's no reason they wouldn't do the same here).

I wouldn't necessarily promote the idea that Eircom should block this new band by default - I would say that they should (a)let people know about it (perhaps they have/will through the usual adverts) and charge a small one-time fee for doing so.

I agree with Frank - it's become more of an IrelandOffline issue (if it's an issue at all) rather than a Nets/Comms one.

(my fault for moving it)

Carnate

"Its the keyboard and the chair"


goshdarnitgetitrightplease!