Eircom turning off CLID for their own uses??

DeVore

UTV have had terrible trouble with CLID being set on and having to ask people to turn it off and now Eircom pull *this* little stunt...

I bet you they dont offer this as a service to OLO's... so isnt that a misuse of their position as incumbents?

Basically they are ignoring their CLID setting and reading your number (x-directory or NOT!) for the duration of that one call. So you get to keep CLID secret for other calls...

DeV.
--

2.3 To ensure that eircom net provides a top quality service to our customers, it is essential to protect against potential abuse by anonymous users, such as those sending unsolicited spam email, or other unacceptable behaviour. Customers wishing to enjoy the service automatically make their Caller Line Identification available when connecting to eircom net. Regardless of whether your telephone number is ex-directory or not this unblocking of Caller Line Identification is automatic and is essential for accessing the eircom net internet service. This number will not be identified to any other services. In other words, removing the CLID block only releases the phone number for the duration of the call to eircom net and not for any other call .

De Rebel

Wow - there must be a privacy issue here. I wonder what the legal basis for CLIB blocking/ Ex Directory is. Is it just an Eir(****ing)con feature that they can bypass at will or is it grounded in legislation? Or would they rely on the anti-child porn legislation to justify this?

sceptre

Of course despite the supposed reason supplied by Eircom for the T&C posted by deV, it's no method for blocking someone sending "bulk unsolicited mail". Any idiot anywhere on the planet can set up an @eircom.net mail address and use Eircom's (open) mailservers to send as much spam as they want.

I come down firmly on the side of the "conspiracy by Eircom" argument. They're doing this for some unlisted reason that they're not telling people about.

jd

its actually not a big conspiracy, the issue started about 4 /5 years ago when isps started offering registration on line without credit card details.


"I remember I did some stuff for the indigo autoreg, and the ins file (configuration file) sent included the 142 prefix to enable caller line id. Shortly afterward, eircom sent a letter to all the isps stating the switches weren't designed to process so many clid enablements on a call by call basis, and that alternative arrangements could be made if clid was a condition of service for an isp service. I had to remove the 142 bit from the script generating the ins file.."

I think what happened after that, was that isps could request clid is presented to the numbers of their access servers..(as per their t&c's)

If eircom refused, then isps would probably put the 142 prefix in their connection software, and eircom would be back to the switch prblem..
This actually did happen...

jd

Originally posted by sceptre
Any idiot anywhere on the planet can set up an @eircom.net mail address and use Eircom's (open) mailservers to send as much spam as they want.

I come down firmly on the side of the "conspiracy by Eircom" argument. They're doing this for some unlisted reason that they're not telling people about.

no conspiracy, sorry
I had a look at the open mailing list and
1) the eircomnet mail servers are not open
2) there was/is a problem with customers on eircomnet networks running mail servers and leving their mail servers open (problems smart host bla bla)
3) eircomnet are looking at blocking access to reg severs from abroad..

wolf359

Two questions...

1 Is Eircom.net a separate independent company to Eircom?
2 If so, how are they allowed to get CLID enabled on an ex-directory number?

Surely if this is the case, then anybody who makes their number ex-directory like myself has a reason to complain I do NOT want my number being sent with every call made.

jd

Originally posted by wolf359
Two questions...

1 Is Eircom.net a separate independent company to Eircom?
2 If so, how are they allowed to get CLID enabled on an ex-directory number?

Surely if this is the case, then anybody who makes their number ex-directory like myself has a reason to complain I do NOT want my number being sent with every call made.

it's wholly owned by Eircom..(I think there is a separate company (wholly owned subsidiary) called Indigo Service LTD which is most of the isp business)

The clid is only being sent to eircomnet,indigo, medianet or any isp which has made it part of their t&C's , and only for the duration of the call to that isp. In other words , if you don't want the clid to be presented, find another isp..

spongebob

a carrier to carrier relationship means that for billing purposes CLI is sent on. It is sent with an explicit instruction to present or not present to to the end customer.

Nevada should get it but not UTV per se.

De Rebel

I have searched the Eircom Website to find out the basis of and conditions attached to CLID blocking. Can't find anything.

It would be very interesting to know the legal status of this feature.

I do not believe that a court would uphold Eircom's overriding of an explicit instruction by the customer (withhold my identification) simply because it buries something in the t&c. Ordinarily an explicit instruction such as this could only be waived by an equally explicit declaration by the customer.

I would support DeVore’s contention that there is an abuse here. Depending on Eircom.net’s legal standing and its relationship with Eircom, there is either a failure to create a Chinese wall or an unauthorised disclosure to a third party.

jd

Usage policy-(also agreed by customer when he signs up on autoreg)

2.3 To ensure that eircom net provides a top quality service to our customers, it is essential to protect against potential abuse by anonymous users, such as those sending unsolicited spam email, or other unacceptable behaviour. Customers wishing to enjoy the service automatically make their Caller Line Identification available when connecting to eircom net. Regardless of whether your telephone number is ex-directory or not this unblocking of Caller Line Identification is automatic and is essential for accessing the eircom net internet service. This number will not be identified to any other services. In other words, removing the CLID block only releases the phone number for the duration of the call to eircom net and not for any other call .

2.4 eircom net reserves the right to deny access to all or any part of eircom net or the Services if the telephone calling line identification is blocked from the telephone line with which you use to access eircom net.

dahamsta

It all comes down to access to equipment and services to my mind. It looks like Eircom Net has access to equipment and services other ISP's wouldn't, which is abuse of position. As someone has rightly pointed out, the T's and C's have very little to do with this. It's a competition matter.

adam

jd

Originally posted by dahamsta
It all comes down to access to equipment and services to my mind. It looks like Eircom Net has access to equipment and services other ISP's wouldn't, which is abuse of position. As someone has rightly pointed out, the T's and C's have very little to do with this. It's a competition matter.

adam

The point is they don't, other isps can access for the same service..(as long as clid is part of their t&cs)

De Rebel

Originally posted by jd
Usage policy-(also agreed by customer when he signs up on autoreg)

2.3 To ensure that eircom net provides a top quality service to our customers, it is essential to protect against potential abuse by anonymous users, such as those sending unsolicited spam email, or other unacceptable behaviour. Customers wishing to enjoy the service automatically make their Caller Line Identification available when connecting to eircom net. Regardless of whether your telephone number is ex-directory or not this unblocking of Caller Line Identification is automatic and is essential for accessing the eircom net internet service. This number will not be identified to any other services. In other words, removing the CLID block only releases the phone number for the duration of the call to eircom net and not for any other call .

2.4 eircom net reserves the right to deny access to all or any part of eircom net or the Services if the telephone calling line identification is blocked from the telephone line with which you use to access eircom net.

If you posted that as a response to my question, then you obviously didn't read the question. Its the basis of CLID blocking that I am interested in, and whether or not there is a contractual agreement between the customer who requests CLID blocking and Eircom. If that’s the case, then it would appear to me that the Ericom.net (whatever its legal status) wouldn't have the right to override that contractual agreement by burying something in its T&Cs

spongebob

Yo!

This stuff is over 4 and a half years old now.

See This Link to the document which sets down the geeral principles of CLI availibility.

M

De Rebel

Originally posted by Muck
Yo!

This stuff is over 4 and a half years old now.

See This Link to the document which sets down the geeral principles of CLI availibility.

M

Hi M

Interesting. This appears to be geared at "telecommunications providers" rather than ISPs. It would be interesting to see what was actually put in place in the end.

Definitely looks like DeVore's initial assertion that there is a misuse/abuse going on holds true.

spongebob

Nevada is the Telco. The rules apply to the Eircom - Nevada relationship.

In the case of Eircom-Eircom.Net the regulator requires clarity of accounts and therefoee Eircom.Net has to show a clear demarcation between itself and eircom retail. It has incoming logs to show such if necessary.

M

jd

Originally posted by De Rebel


Hi M

Interesting. This appears to be geared at "telecommunications providers" rather than ISPs. It would be interesting to see what was actually put in place in the end.

Definitely looks like DeVore's initial assertion that there is a misuse/abuse going on holds true.

ISp's can apply for a telecomunications license.
afair, Indigo Services ltd has a basic telecomunications license, and Eircomnet is part of this entity.

spongebob

If you are a carrier (licenced and accept ISUPP ( SS7 ) signalling) you will get the CLI from the originating caller anyway.

You will also be told whether this may or may not be passed on and to whom.

Another carrier may get it but the final customer will not....unless they are a carrier.

M

De Rebel

M

Are you saying that the eircom.net entity (however it is constituted) is thefore entitled to receive CLID or not?

spongebob

If it has a licence it is probably entitled to receive CLI across ISUPP

Eircom.Net has to publish separate accounts to Eircom Retail within group accounts and as most of its income is across that interconnect it has to be able to check where (which carrier) the call comes from and bill them back for terminating it or for carying it if it originated further back than Eircom...say abroad.

M

jd

Originally posted by Muck
If it has a licence it is probably entitled to receive CLI across ISUPP
and as most of its income is across that interconnect it has to be able to check where (which carrier)

At the mement it doesn't get any such income (recognised in the regulatory accounts).

De Rebel

Originally posted by Muck
Yo!

This stuff is over 4 and a half years old now.

See This Link to the document which sets down the geeral principles of CLI availibility.

M

Just read that document again. The spirit of the Data Protection Commissioner's stance in Article 4 would leave Eircom.net looking like a called party rather than a Telecommunications Provider. Therefore it should not get clid, without the explicit agreement of the customer.

jd

Originally posted by De Rebel


Just read that document again. The spirit of the Data Protection Commissioner's stance in Article 4 would leave Eircom.net looking like a called party rather than a Telecommunications Provider. Therefore it should not get clid, without the explicit agreement of the customer.

I don't know-I'm not a lawyer.
However I doubt that Eircomnet etc draw up T+C's without them being scrutinised by lawyers.
I guess in the event of no clid, eircomnet could just disallow access to their network (ie deny authentication at login)

spongebob

As you correctly noted DR

called party rather than a Telecommunications Provider

A licence is the only difference between a called party and a telecomms provider (who is also the called party coz Eircom.Net sure dont ring my modem)

M