Reclaim the Streets

DadaKopf

There's another one organised for this coming September 22nd.

Considering the whole idea of Reclaim the Streets, and Critical Mass, is better known now than it was before the last one, I'm curious about people's opinions on it now.

How many Boards.ie readers support the idea and how many don't. How many Boards.ie readers will be taking part, how many won't, and why?

Personally, I'm of the opinion that it's now a very important event in Dublin culture but should spread to other cities in Ireland.

Sand

How many Boards.ie readers support the idea and how many don't. How many Boards.ie readers will be taking part, how many won't, and why?

I dont support blocking up streets and generally being a pest.

I wont be taking part.

Ive got a job.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that it's now a very important event in Dublin culture but should spread to other cities in Ireland.

Personally Im off the opinion that its now a very important part of the dublin student culture - and also a real irritant for people trying to get around town - otherwise its very unimportant.

The Gopher

To find an intorduction to my opinion please read Sands signature directly above this post.
Reclaim The Streets?Reclaim your ****ing sanity you filthy gay hashheads.Ooooohh,lets do our bit for the environment by smashing up McDonalds and planting cannabis in Stephens Green.Then we can all go for our trendy mocha coffees,despite the fact that coffee is unfairly distributed by wealthy western wholesalers deprriving native gowers of profits they deserve.Sure **** that its trendy for us to drink that stuff.After were finished we better get back out to Mater and Paters mansion in Dalkey where we can play croquet and have Jeeves bring us our drinks to the tennis court.God I love standing up for the underclass"
Id do a ****ing Tianamen Square on you rehabs if I ruled this country.:mad: :mad: Why dont you **** off to the rainforest or whatever your twisted nonsensical ideology is trying to save today?You people are such hypocrites.

shotamoose

Well I can see why Sand takes after you. :rolleyes:

Really, though, I can't see what you're so afraid of. Just some people playing about. So what?

pro_gnostic_8

Not me. I don't fully understand what they're protesting against, or who they are trying to reclaim the streets from.

BKtje

i dont see how we have lost the streets exactly.
C
ars? without cars there wouldnt be much of a city.
Maybe a few more pedestrianised areas would be nice, but its not vital.

mayhem#

I could post what I really think of the whole "reclaim the streets" thing but then I would probably be banned for life.......

colinsky

I'd be fine with the "reclaim the streets" thing if they'd just make sure to stay out of the bus lanes... since those of us supporting public transport are doing our part too.

fair deal?

Hairy Homer

Need a carrot and stick approach here. Starting with the carrot.

Two of the biggest environmental successes over the past few years have been, in the international arena, the banning of CFCs and locally, the levy on plastic bags.

CFCs are now completely phased out, I believe, from Western economies at the very least and there are something like a billion fewer plastic bags in circulation in Ireland. How come?

Because there were readily available alternatives and people were encouraged to adopt them. In industrial cleaning for example, where CFCs were widely used, alternative methods were promoted and industries moved over fairly quickly. As regards plastic bags, it's amazing how a mere 15c levy caused many people to get over the lack of street cred caused by carrying a shopping bag around.

Now, the streets. How do we get people out of their cars?

With a decent public transport system for a start. And there is plenty we could do right away to make the current system work better without waiting for the Nirvana that will be the LUAS or the Metro or whatever other pie in the sky is promised 'Real Soon Now'.

First, we could introduce through ticketing on Dublin Bus ie you buy a ticket; it gets you from A to B not from A to wherever that bus is going, whence you have to buy another ticket to get to B.

Every other country in Europe that I have visited over the past 20 years has a similar system. And you can get saver tickets that allow you to jump off one means (eg a bus) on to another (eg a tram or underground train).

Here, you have to buy a ticket for each bus journey whether that is the full journey or a leg of a journey; you have to have the exact fare, you have to know in advance exactly what that fare will be (ideal if it's your daily commute to work, but what if you're taking the bus to visit Aunt Sally whom you haven't seen for years?) and if you don't have the exact fare, they overcharge you and make it almost impossible to reclaim it. Only one outlet in Dublin where you can get your dosh back, what the hell is that?

Of course Irish people are not great complainers. They just say 'Feck it. I'll drive'. And you can't really blame them.

So if you want to 'reclaim the streets' I say, you've got a point. But direct your protests at those who are best placed to do something about it—
namely CIE.

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by mayhem#
I could post what I really think of the whole "reclaim the streets" thing but then I would probably be banned for life.......

What's it to you? Didn't think there were too many streets in your (red) neck of the woods. :-)

photty

Originally posted by Sand

I dont support blocking up streets and generally being a pest.

you mean in the same way people in their cars do every day?

photty

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
First, we could introduce through ticketing on Dublin Bus ie you buy a ticket; it gets you from A to B not from A to wherever that bus is going, whence you have to buy another ticket to get to B.

Every other country in Europe that I have visited over the past 20 years has a similar system. And you can get saver tickets that allow you to jump off one means (eg a bus) on to another (eg a tram or underground train).
[/B]

good point. A zone system should be put in place. In denmark the city of copenhagen and its burbs are split into a number of zones. You simply buy a ticket for how many zones you wish to cross, i.e. 2,3,4 or All for longer trips. This ticket is then valid for transport on the excellent train AND bus networks. Note that it is also time based. A 4 zone ticket lets you travel for 2 hours across the whole network as much as you wish. You can also take a bike onto the train for a small charge. They provide storage space for bikes in every carriage. I usually get around by a bike/train combination. It's a long way from the sardine like experience of the dublin bus commuter on a hot summers day...

On the bike point not only does cph have these great public transport links but it also provides thousands of miles of cycle lanes. I'm almost certain than pretty much every street in the city has seperate cycle lanes.

This is something which has plenty of room for improvement back in Dublin. With the ban on cross town traffic now I hope they begin to mark off lanes for cyclists to encourage people to get out of the car.

Chaos-Engine

Yes I totally agree.
I was at the last one when all hell broke loss and the Critical Mass last September when all the pensioners were pulled off their bikes in O'Connell street on EU CAR FREE DAY???

Now with Dublin City Council organising the traffic system so as to divert almost all commuter traffic from the City Centre then surely it is a true statement that the City is for people and not cars.

I resent any statement such as
" NO I got a job "...

At the last Reclaim the streets I walked next to a successful merchant and Entreprenur and on my otherside a Lawyer...

Perhaps you can't make it in the afternoon due to after hours(9 to 5) commitments. Well lend a hand and make some banners or lend your camera/bongo to a friend that can make it....

It is a Fun carnival atmosphere if it is aloud to prevale. I for one will be there on my Bike.

Chaos-Engine

Take a leaf from the Earth Summit


Surely if you can block the streets of cars for a day it is worth it.
Any reduction in traffic is a good thing. People might have sense and keep their car at home in future....

Perhaps Reclaim the Streets can become a weekly event like in Paris... Then it could rely make a statement...

dahamsta

I don't particularly support RTS, but I do find the kind of responses exemplified in this thread (and in another thread on a forum I mod) kneejerk and quite often ignorant. Everyone has a right to protest about stuff they believe in, and I find it rather sad and ironic that the people who come out with bigoted commentary on protests like RTS are invariably the types that never actually go out and do something about their own complaints. More importantly, it's just one day of culture jamming -- if it's affecting people's lives that badly, they really must have quite sad lives. An RTS once or twice a year isn't going to kill anyone. Well, unless the dodgy Garda minority get their way...

adam

Gerry

I think the gopher is way out of line here. Yes, there are a fair few people there just because its trendy, and they act hypocritically or whatever, but there are plenty of genuine people at these things also. I personally would like to see cars eliminated from the city centre, and far more public space. Do you not want to see the same gopher? If I can, I will go to it.

gandalf

Well personally I have no problem with people demostrating when they have a definable goal.

The problem I have with RTS is that their is no real definate goal or solution that they are putting forward. If they threw all their weight behind sorting out public transport then yeah that would be great but they strike me as a load of wannaby student socialist types who are creating problems for ordinary people trying to do their business in a already difficult city to get around.

Therefore I have voted no.

Please feel free to educate me if I have picked up their message incorrectly.

Gandalf.

photty

I really hope I can make the next one. I've been abroad for a while but boards is a great way to keep in touch with home. I'll be bringing me bike too. Only problem is do I ride the road bike or the MTB

Aspro

I've got a job.
I've got a car.
With a properly invested public transport system I wouldn't need one.
I'm not a student.
I'm not from Dalkey.
I don't drink mochas.
I fully support any democratic protest that's trying to improve our cities and our environment for people.

I'll be there.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Not me. I don't fully understand what they're protesting against, or who they are trying to reclaim the streets from.

I don't think the RTS people are fully sure either.

ReefBreak

I voted Don't Know. I most definitely support the idea of less cars and more pedestrianised areas in the city centre. It's a great asset to any city.

However, I don't like the RTS people. There's a real "look-how-they-protest-in-Genoa-and-Europe-Lets-do-the-same-over-here" vibe about them. Also, I think Gandalf put it correctly when he said that there's no real solution or proposals being offered (unless you count blocking the streets and shouting abuse at the cops). Until they lose the posh, crusty trouble-making student image, I can't really see them having much success.

potlatch

Originally posted by ReefBreak
However, I don't like the RTS people. There's a real "look-how-they-protest-in-Genoa-and-Europe-Lets-do-the-same-over-here" vibe about them.

RTS originated in London. Since RTS is part of a global 'movement' it's not surprising that it has a global flavour.

Also, I think Gandalf put it correctly when he said that there's no real solution or proposals being offered

Everyone is offering solutions. From NGO's to academics to Dublin City Council. Of the protesters involved in RTS, many are offering solutions to the problems it highlights, many of which have been outlined in this thread.

RTS is exactly about offering solutions by creating the 'space' to imagine solutions by temporarily readjusting society's relationship with the urban environment. By experiencing this change, the solutions emerge naturally as do the benefits.

RTS compliments the efforts being made by the National Development Plan and Dublin City Council's Strategy 2012 by harnessing the power of popular protest and quantative institutional strategies. Strategy 2012 has recognised the need for a programme educating the public about the need for sustainable communities and sustainable development, which it's recognised will require all citizens to alter their living habits. RTS is a grassroots extension of this realisation.

Sand

you mean in the same way people in their cars do every day?

And you make it better by adding to the blockages?- ah right its really just an incredibly smart way to make a point about congestion- increase it!!!

Now why didnt someone else think of that?

I resent any statement such as
" NO I got a job "...

Tough, tbh.

Perhaps you can't make it in the afternoon due to after hours(9 to 5) commitments. Well lend a hand and make some banners or lend your camera/bongo to a friend that can make it....

Ive got , say 2-3 hours of leisure time on a typical weekday - why would I want to spend it doing something as unproductive and unfun as that?

Surely if you can block the streets of cars for a day it is worth it. Any reduction in traffic is a good thing. People might have sense and keep their car at home in future....

Its exactly this sort of attitude which will ensure RTS remains exactly what it is- an exscuse for students and gob****es in general to act like gob****es and try and goad the Gardai into giving them what theyre looking for. Youre not magically clearing the street of cars - youre just forcing them to go elsewhere- increasing congestion to psychotic frenzy levels. Theres no alternative to cars for most people because CIE is A) Always late - and unlike RTSers, working ppl cant just "skip a lecture" Full of Knackers C) Uncomftable and usually more packed than a Nazi death train D) Wildly overpriced for what it offers E) Usually drops you a long way from where youre going F) Does its best to avoid all logic in its scheduling.

People are thus incredibly unsympathetic to the RTS as its just more congestion and trouble - hence the rather noticeable lack of real interest in the Gardai and supposed brutality- fact is most ppl would have done a lot worse than the Guards are alleged to have done.

Until there *is* an alternative that is useful, all youre doing is annoying the hell out of an already stressed population. In that spirit I hope the Gardai beat the everloving snot out of the RTS.

Everyone has a right to protest about stuff they believe in,

And Ill defend their right to do that no problem- arts students though they may be- But theyve no right to mess up everyones elses day with their protest. If they want to actually get a real change going why dont they lobby the government for it - actively campaign rather than this once a year Gob****e festival which is a real pain in the ass for ppl going through Dublin whilst being forgotten by the politicians by the weekend. If they want to protest go and chain themselves to the gates of the Dail or something - Itll give me a laugh to see them and theyll be making some great satirical point to the ministers about transport etc etc.

More importantly, it's just one day of culture jamming -- if it's affecting people's lives that badly, they really must have quite sad lives.

Say that when youre coming back from a bad day at work, where nothings going right, you just want to go home and chill out and now youre being held up by these arseholes - I guarantee youll be jumping out of your car/bus ready to give the Gardai a helping hand to restore some order. And yes, working isnt an exercise in comedy but someones got to pay for the students free college education dont they?

I'll be there.

And if the Gardai beat him down. And if the Gardai lock him up in their neo fascist jails - WHOLL TAKE HIS PLACE? Anybody at all?:)

RTS is exactly about offering solutions by creating the 'space' to imagine solutions by temporarily readjusting society's relationship with the urban environment. By experiencing this change, the solutions emerge naturally as do the benefits.

When you put it like that...







Nah, youre still blocking up streets, causing congestion and the naturally emerging solution is for the Gardai to beat you off the streets.

DadaKopf

Wow, Sand, do you think about anything other than yourself?

Sand

Wow, Sand, do you think about anything other than yourself?

I havent started blocking off streets for my own "carnival" at the exspense of others ppl stress - Im selfish like that.

DadaKopf

And you don't, for a second, consider RTS has anything to do with the greater good? While the RTS protester's point is sustainable and community-based. Yours is selfish and self-defeating.

Sand

And you don't, for a second, consider RTS has anything to do with the greater good?

I think theyve taken a decent idea with an admirable end goal ( Who exactly doesnt support less congestion and a decent transport system- especially ppl like me travelling through dublin every day?) and gone down the same tired, ineffective, stress inducing " Lets have a protest - Its monday ffs" route so beloved of students and wasters - to protest congestion cause more of it, increase everyone elses stress levels and probably know themselves it has absolutely zero effect on the governments policies - and then have the sheer cheek to pretend theyre doing everyone else a favour and we should be grateful?!?!?!

Thank you - Thank you for helping to make sure i get home late. Thank you for increasing my stress. Thanks on behalf of all the other tens of thousands youll be hindering as well. Bravo. Not many ppl could get me to disagree with ppl wanting less congestion but the RTS have managed it with their inept, clueless and downright moronic plans. Whats step two? Fecking up all the traffic lights inside the city center?

The only possible good thing to come out of the RTS was the guards giving them something to cry about and everyone else a good chuckle. Heres to part two.

Turnip

Originally posted by Sand
Ive got a job.

September 22nd is a Sunday. Do you work on Sunday?

I might go along if I've got nothing better to do. But if any SWP twit tries to sell me their crappy newspaper he's going to get a punch in the face.

gandalf

Originally posted by DadaKopf
And you don't, for a second, consider RTS has anything to do with the greater good? While the RTS protester's point is sustainable and community-based. Yours is selfish and self-defeating.

While I don't normally agree with Sand I think he has a point. Its all very well saying that RTS are finding solutions etc but in reality by demostrating in this fashion they are turning people who would probably agree with their aims against them.

The company I work for relies on Engineers going out to customer sites to sort out problems. All of these have Service Level agreements which means the pressure is on to get there within a certain time period. Those guys have to drive a car or van. On certain accounts if they miss the SLA then it could be very serious for us it could cost us a contract and then even jobs.

I think time would be better spent by RTS by lobbying politicians directly about sorting out the public transport system in Dublin and the country. If we had a reliable and efficient service available you would see the number of cars on Dublins Streets drop dramatically.

All these demostrations achieve is bad feeling from the general public towards RTS and ultimately their goals.

Gandalf.

Biffa Bacon

Personally, I'm of the opinion that it's now a very important event in Dublin culture but should spread to other cities in Ireland.

To me this seems to confirm what many people suspect about RTS – that it’s not really a political event aimed at effecting real change in how our cities are run, but is instead a cultural event intended solely to help lefty-types feel good about themselves.

Everyone is offering solutions. From NGO's to academics to Dublin City Council. Of the protesters involved in RTS, many are offering solutions to the problems it highlights, many of which have been outlined in this thread.

So why not make it clear exactly what solutions you are endorsing and which ones you aren’t? There would be a lot more goodwill towards the event if you did, as people would believe you were serious about effecting change and not just using it as an excuse to ponce about. Because that’s pretty much the reason why there is so much hostility on this thread and in society in general towards RTS. I think most people would like to see fewer cars on the road, but RTS is just such a half-assed way to achieve it, almost as if the participants don’t really care if anything is achieved as long as they have their day out.

RTS is exactly about offering solutions by creating the 'space' to imagine solutions by temporarily readjusting society's relationship with the urban environment.

Let’s face it, anyone who needs RTS to create “the 'space' to imagine solutions by temporarily readjusting society's relationship with the urban environment” is bound to come up with some pretty lame transport policies. What RTS should be about is drawing attention to and creating goodwill towards proposals aimed at reducing the level of traffic in cities. At the moment it is failing to do this, which is a shame, given that we can hardly expect our elected representatives to come up with intelligent transport policies.

By experiencing this change, the solutions emerge naturally as do the benefits.

I’m sure the benefits are readily apparent for those participating, but do you not see that for everyone else it’s just a pain in the hole?

Strategy 2012 has recognised the need for a programme educating the public about the need for sustainable communities and sustainable development, which it's recognised will require all citizens to alter their living habits. RTS is a grassroots extension of this realisation.

But the problem is not that people aren’t willing to change their living habits; I think most people are. The problem is that there is no debate about specific policies that might be implemented to reduce our reliance on the car and thus no incentive for the government to get up off their asses and do so.
The fact remains that RTS is completely ineffectual in achieving real change. Does this not bother anyone participating in it?

mike65

Reclaim The Streets - Another good reason not to live in Dublin.

The ideal is good but RTS is just another beano for students and layabouts with hippy/crustie tendencies.

I imagine the make-up of those in attendance on the day will be roughly 20% true belivers (they'd be there in the worst weather),
10% political agiatators from SWP etc, and the rest who fancy a day out, some of whom will enjoy the chance to annoy the cops.

Mike.

JustHalf

The last RTS (when the Gardai decided "I'll assault who I like!") was a joke. No formal protest. No real sense of organisation. A couple of people throwing back cans.

It was very difficult to take seriously.

Of course the Gardai going mental was completely unacceptable (predictably tagged "state repression" by the SWP, as opposed to "police brutality"). But I don't see how exactly it's a protest, when most (if not all) of the advertising invited people along to a party?

The next one will have more people going along "for the laugh" than the last one, because of what happened. It will be harder to take seriously.

It seems to be a bit of a joke, to be honest.

And Gerry, I'd just like to tag you with the nickname "CommiePhil"

androphobic

Sorry for going off topic for a minute but would you mind not referring to the protestors as "students and wasters" or "students and layabouts", etc, etc?

Sand: I also take exception to your remark about free college education. Some of us work damn hard to pass our college exams and support ourselves - 30 hours of lectures plus 20 hours working plus study etc isn't exactly an easy ride you know.

It seems that whenever the topic of protests comes up some people are too quick to point the finger. Sure there are students involved but for god's sake, there are tens of thousands of students in Dublin alone.. talk about a huge generalisation.

What are you so bitter about?

[Rant over, sorry]

Lawnkiller

each protest0r should be given a brief questionaire to fill out to see if they understand the purpose of the protest...or sumfin

it seems that most ppl either support the ideaology or don't give a damn.

i haven't vote on this...yet.

Gerry

Originally posted by JustHalf
blah blah blah

And Gerry, I'd just like to tag you with the nickname "CommiePhil"

I'm not a communist, just not as jaded and high and mighty as Sand or yourself.

photty

Originally posted by Sand
And you make it better by adding to the blockages?- ah right its really just an incredibly smart way to make a point about congestion- increase it!!!
...
Until there *is* an alternative that is useful, all youre doing is annoying the hell out of an already stressed population. In that spirit I hope the Gardai beat the everloving snot out of the RTS.

There already is an alternative. You know how to ride a bike right? You also seem unhappy about the public transport system in Dublin so why not cycle to this high pressure job of yours or even participate in a Critical Mass event instead of sitting back and waiting for it to happen. For me CM have much clearer goals than RTS but the underlying discontent with public transport puts them on the same team. Critical Mass organise bike rides through Dublin the last friday of every month. Meet at Garden of Rememberence on Parnell Sq. 6-ish I think.

By the way Sand this wasn't you was it??
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/wsm/news/2002/critmassAPR.html

DadaKopf

CM is more defined because it makes one simple, resounding point: "Cyclists aren't blocking traffic, they are the traffic".

RTS's goals are so much more widespread. It has much more to do with the reclamation of public space from commercial control and state control than just traffic congestion and pollution.

CM makes a point about the lack of cyclable streets; RTS uses the car as a symbol of the loss of communal space that seems to have risen with the rise of free market capitalism. RTS is therefore part radical ecological-protest, part critique of free market capitalism, part street-party but always an act of civil disobedience.

The rise of late-capitalism is directly correlated with the rise of the car and the increasing control of public life by business and government. RTS emerged, partly, as a reaction to the Criminal Justice Act in Britain that outlawed spontaneous gatherings; shopowners on O'Connell St. tried to bring in a similar bye-law last year and now we have the Public Order Act that many assert is a threat to civil liberties. The difference between the Criminal Justice Act and the Dublin bye-law and Public Order Act is that the latter two are economically motivated - people cannot spontaneously gather because it's a threat to profit-making. So legislation in this country, and others, is being geared more toward economic interests rather than human ones.

By addressing pragmatic, economic issues, successive governments in Ireland have increased overall prosperity but have created totally unsustainable ways of living. This has to be changed and protest is a legitimate means to a desirable end.

I'm not a bitter socialist, I'm just someone who thinks that laws/government action that threaten civil liberties and social and ecological health in the interest of money and not people is fundamentally wrong. Beneath this pattern of laws lies a particular political-economic ideology which many believe to be fundamentally flawed and which should be resisted.

RTS operates by symbolically, but literally, reclaiming these spaces, turning this contradiction on its head. It makes public urban space social, not economic. It (and CM) makes the streets spaces for everyone except cars, which are understood as a symbol of the contradictions of our economic system. RTS is an act of civil disobedience but one which I think is justified. Considering that the Republic of Ireland was attained through acts of civil disobedience, simply commenting that it's wrong because it's against the law misses the point entirely.

If I was to make any criticism of RTS, it would have to be that more of an effort has to be made this time to get the ideas across to people more.

pencil

DadaKopf

Well said, that gets my vote for post of the week.

Biffa Bacon

RTS's goals are so much more widespread. It has much more to do with the reclamation of public space from commercial control and state control than just traffic congestion and pollution.

That’s all well and good, but I still don’t understand the goals of RTS in practical terms. Is it arguing for the right to close off streets and hold carnivals there whenever they want? Or do they just want more pedestrianised streets? Why not be clear about this? Because when you aren’t clear about your goals, as the organizers of RTS aren’t, the event just comes across as being entirely self-serving.

RTS is an act of civil disobedience but one which I think is justified.

Again, this is the problem with the movement. There’s absolutely no point in civil disobedience if no-one knows why you’re doing it. Are you protesting against laws prohibiting people from impeding traffic at will, or are you protesting the right of cars to travel down these streets? Is it just the streets the protest takes place on that you want closed to cars, or are there others as well? Do you want them closed off all year round, or just on certain days? Has anyone even thought these things through?

Considering that the Republic of Ireland was attained through acts of civil disobedience, simply commenting that it's wrong because it's against the law misses the point entirely.

This is something of a side-issue, but I think it’s an absolute disgrace that every single person taking place in these events isn’t arrested. Either it should be against the law, in which case those breaking it should be punished, or else it shouldn’t, in which case the laws prohibiting it should be repealed. But this business of just getting the participants to disperse is me eye.

DadaKopf

This link might help to explain things a little better: http://www.crimethinc.com/library/situa.html. It doesn't refer to Reclaim the Streets at such but explains much of the ideas behind it.

There's also good info on http://reclaimthestreets.org/links.html

Turnip

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
This is something of a side-issue, but I think it’s an absolute disgrace that every single person taking place in these events isn’t arrested. Either it should be against the law, in which case those breaking it should be punished, or else it shouldn’t, in which case the laws prohibiting it should be repealed. But this business of just getting the participants to disperse is me eye.

Does anyone know how the Public Order Act will affect this thing? Shall we see a few arrests or what?

Unlike the violent protests like we saw at Genoa and elsewhere this is an event I vaguely support because it has less anarchist/socialist purely political motivations. I would hope the organisers are using the legal means available to advance their aims as well.

Biffa Bacon

I understand why people want to reclaim the streets from cars, but I don’t understand how they plan on doing it. The links you gave shed no light on this at all. I can only assume that the answer to the question I put earlier, “Has anyone even thought these things through?” is a resounding “No”, and my suspicion that “…the participants don’t really care if anything is achieved as long as they have their day out”, is correct.

Interestingly, I did find the following quote here:

Won't the streets be better without cars? Not if all that replaces them are aisles of pedestrianised consumption or shopping "villages" safely protected from the elements. To be against the car for its own sake is inane; claiming one piece as the whole jigsaw. The struggle for car-free space must not be separated from the struggle against global capitalism for in truth the former is encapsulated in the latter. The streets are as full of capitalism as of cars and the pollution of capitalism is much more insidious.

Maybe this opinion doesn’t reflect the views of all RTS participants, but shouldn’t those who agree with it own up to their real agenda?

ReefBreak

Not if all that replaces them are aisles of pedestrianised consumption or shopping "villages" safely protected from the elements

LOL, ROTFL, etc, etc.

"So what we're saying here, roight, is that we want Dame Street replaced with a loike, you know, a big field."

Can I change my "Don't Know" to "No"?

DadaKopf

There's no 'real agenda' beyond popular consent in RTS - everyone is welcome to exchange and discuss ideas from many points of view. Nothing in RTS is dictatorial. Like I already said, it is connected with a critique of capitalism.

One other comment: think about Temple Bar. It's car free but it isn't public space - it's run by Temple Bar properties, a semi-state economic venture, run by Temple Bar proprietors in their interests. RTS may as well reclaim Temple Bar from commercial control as other parts of Dublin from the car. Remember, the car is a tangible symbol but RTS's critique extends far beyond just traffic problems.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by DadaKopf
And you don't, for a second, consider RTS has anything to do with the greater good? While the RTS protester's point is sustainable and community-based.

No. Just another excuse for an almost exclusively middle class group of twits and SWP bandwagoners to fight de powah. These fads come and go.

Yours is selfish and self-defeating.

Selfish - absolutely, but there lies that old argument about human nature (which is OT here). That it is self-defeating is simple conjecture upon your part. Certainly any evidence would presently point to it being more practical than any idealistic fist waving.

I might turn up though to watch the fun from a distance though.

Release the hounds.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by DadaKopf
There's no 'real agenda' beyond popular consent in RTS - everyone is welcome to exchange and discuss ideas from many points of view.

If there is no "real agenda" then what do you expect it to achieve? Surely you must concede that it's an entirely self-serving exercise?

It wasn't me!

Hell, I think it's a great idea and I will be there if I possibly can. It would be wonderful if we could clear out the city centre of cars. Wonder if this new sign-system is going to help that at all.

Crash

I'm gonna be at this one, not to protest, but more to get information on what they're protesting about specifically. Personally i support a more pedestrianised city, cus i'm sick of ****e public transport and getting nearly run over.

Sand

Sand: I also take exception to your remark about free college education. Some of us work damn hard to pass our college exams and support ourselves - 30 hours of lectures plus 20 hours working plus study etc isn't exactly an easy ride you know.

I know - Ive done it myself. However Arts students seem to have the time to pursue their worthless ( toliet paper has more practical use than an arts degree- what would you rather have? ) degrees whilst at the same time polluting public space with their whinging, illogical and plain annoying rants, protests and posters.

I'm not a communist, just not as jaded and high and mighty as Sand or yourself.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

There already is an alternative. You know how to ride a bike right?

This really makes me want to slap you around a bit but Im a nice guy so ill just ask you to give me an estimate of how long itll take me to travel ooooh 15-20 miles ( conservtive estimate- suffice to say im not even in county dublin) in rain and hail to my place of work right in the city centre - you might as well tell me that the simpsons is an alternative to studying for passing exams.

By the way Sand this wasn't you was it??

Nah but Ive got to say I laughed when I heard what happened - a blow struck for the common people against the student brigade imho.

"Every time we heard a number of the cars and trucks toot their horns we cheered and punched the air with our fists."

i.e we really did our best to rub it in their faces that we were slowing them up - did our best to provoke them. Then shock horror we found out that very stressed ppl *can* be pushed too far and he wasnt taking our ****. Personally Id give the guy a medal. Sure, what he did was technically wrong but the greater good was served. If some guy was to kill Hitler, youd have to congradulate him even if murder is wrong.

That said I can see how acting like gob****es on bikes and pissing off drivers trying to get home - seemingly you pick Fridays cos its more fun to piss off ppl trying to get home so they can head out- can be seen to be a lot of fun to gob****es aka students. Just why they pretend theyre making a political point is beyond me though.

This has to be changed and protest is a legitimate means to a desirable end.

No its just an exscuse for arseholes to act like arseholes- nothings accomplished whatsoever except their need to justify their persecution complex. Theyd rather not act a lobby group because thats hard, it requires effort, planning and an actual concise vision of what youre trying to achieve. All RTS have, as you so clearly presented, is a rambling, confused, unfocused exscuse for a pissup which is far more fun than lobbying anyway. Just be honest - with yourself at the very least- and stop pretending youre doing ppl a favour here.

gandalf

Well I've been thinking about this RTS stuff a little more. And the more I think about the more angry I get that people who in the main have not contributed to society are threatening to grind the city to a halt over wishy washy aims. I want a decent public transportation system, the very lack of one is the reason I bought a car in the first place.

I am paying thru the nose in Tax, Tax on Fuel, NCT & then Insurance to actually use my car. I would warrent that most of the RTS brigade are hardly paying any income tax and they are telling me that I cannot drive my car in the city. I repeat if there was a efficient viable alternative I would sell the car and pocket all that money it would save me from not using it.

I'm reading here about Global Resistance etc and how this is about fighting corporate entities and the system, what pathetic claptrap. If you have a problem with Government demostrate outside the Dail, if you have a problem with a Corporate entity, demostrate outside their headquarters but to effect the ordinary citizen from going about their own business is selfish, stupid and counter productive.

Gandalf.

Turnip

Originally posted by The Corinthian

No. Just another excuse for an almost exclusively middle class group of twits and SWP bandwagoners to fight de powah. These fads come and go.

Hey. I'm middle class. I studied at Trinity. My dad owns a successful business. I make good money in my chosen career. What's wrong with any of that? Got a chip on your shoulder about your lack of social status or success? Too bad buddy. Work harder. Don't come whining at people like me just because you're bitter and jealous.

If this thing was to be co-opted by a beer company and made a regular event would your attitude change? As for it being a "fad". What does that mean? Give us an example of another "fad". I'll bet some of the same people involved in this are involved in the music, arts and cultural scene. I might disagree with their politics but I don't see anything wrong with that. If I refused on principle to go see any group or artist whose personal politics I disagreed with I'd probably never leave the house.

As long as the focus is on offering the public free outdoor music, art and entertainment (it's got to turn out to be better than those bloody clowns in meeting house square) rather than boring us with pathetic SWP anti-american garda baiting then I don't object. Sure it might inconvenience a few people. But purely commercial events like concerts at Slane and matches at Croke Park are far more inconvenient for locals. Anybody object to them?