Uk Abduction girls finally concluded ??

Kim Tae-Woo

SOHAM (Reuters) - Police have arrested a man and a woman on suspicion of murdering two missing schoolgirls, after one of the biggest manhunts in the country.
Two bodies were later found by a member of the public in a village five miles away on Saturday, although police did not immediately confirm their identities.


"In the last few hours a 28-year-old man and a 25-year-old woman have been arrested," Detective Chief Inspector Andy Hebb said in a statement.
The case of missing 10-year-old best friends Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman has gripped a nation that hoped against hope they would be found alive and drawn more than 400 police into the investigation.
Candlelit vigils have been held in the girls' small town in eastern England and detectives have received some 14,000 pieces of information from the public.


The girls' idol, soccer ace David Beckham, whose Number 7 Manchester United shirt they were both wearing when they disappeared, appealed for their safe return.
"The 28-year-old man has been arrested for the murder and abduction of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman," Hebb said. "The 25-year-old woman has been arrested for the murder of both girls."
A police statement later said two bodies had been found in the neighbouring village of Mildenhall. Police had gone to the site to try to identify the bodies and determine how they died.


Because of the tight rules on what information can be revealed about suspects, the two people arrested were not named or described.
A 28-year-old caretaker and a 25-year-old female teaching assistant at the girls' school had been questioned as witnesses on Friday.


FORENSIC EXAMINATION


The last sighting of the two friends was on security camera footage as they walked through the town together shortly after leaving their homes.
Hebb said items of "major importance" had been recovered during a search of Soham Village College, which includes St Andrew's primary school where the girls were pupils, and where the caretaker and teaching assistant worked.
The items recovered from the college will now be subject to forensic examinations.



I'm just wondering what people think.


1Wouldn't it be better to give the POlice more power or Use Scotland Yard more often?

2Should the Uk have an alert system sililar to the Ones used in the United States?

3Why don't schools have security or better systems to protect young children?

BJJ

I think Scotland Yard should have taken the Case or been called in sooner .

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Shinji

Wouldn't it be better to give the POlice more power or Use Scotland Yard more often?

Scotland Yard actually isn't up to much. There are calls at the moment for the creation of an FBI style centralised force for dealing with serious crime. That makes sense to me - right now, murders like this are being investigated by people who spend their days giving speeding tickets and tracking down people who steal garden furniture. It's not in the same league.

Of course, this won't happen. Instead we'll just get some more draconian laws about who's allowed to look sideways at kids, who's allowed to read your email without you knowing about it, and when the police, social welfare officers and milkmen are allowed to enter your house without a warrant.

Why don't schools have security or better systems to protect young children?

Er, like what? The girls weren't at school when this happened. It would appear that the people who have been arrested (not found guilty yet, we do have these innocent until proven guilty ideas sometimes) worked at the school, one as a caretaker and one as a supply teacher - but what can you do in this instance? You can do basic screening of people, but that's about the height of it.

As it stands already there are sod all people prepared to do extracirricular work with kids like youth clubs and stuff simply because the way narrow minded idiots these days think makes anyone who works with kids into an instant suspect for paedophila. Adding more and more background checks and so on to anyone who wants to work with children is just going to increase that suspicion, and eventually there'll be no facilities at all for kids because nobody wants to put themselves through that.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Clintons Cat

to be fair the cambrideshire and norfolk police (two seperate divisions) have a pretty good detection record when it comes to these kinds off cases,the tomas marshall case springs to mind from a couple of summers ago,and also the apparently motiveless murder of a couple of old ladies two summers ago in upwell but they are pretty damn hopeless when it comes to burgalaries.

Whether a dedicated FBI style team to deal with child abductions would be a sensible use of police resources is a matter of debate,
As matters stand now officers are seconded from other forces many of whom have experience in such cases as the sarah payne investigation To help deal with a forces inquirys.
Would it be sensible to remove them from day to day policing just to staff a department whose expertise is thankfully rarely required?
probally not in my opinion.

who's allowed to read your email without you knowing about it,

been keeping up with your sun reading then shinji?
the sun have issued a new fatwa against the internet,which is apparently some kind of hive of ponographic scum and villany.(funnily enough this editorial rant is ommited from their online version,but there is an intresting feature on "Two Sexy Sisters Topless Together For The First Time")

phobos

I've been keeping an eye on this one for the past 2 weeks, and do you know, I honestly didn't think it would come to this. I had visions of those two girls being found alive, and well. Up until the other night where they gave the "abductees" until midnight to give themselves up, I tried to remain positive. But of course in this sick world which we must live, the outcome has been tragic again (remembering Sarah Payne).

My heart goes out to the families of both kids, because there is nothing any of us could say.

I feel very angry :mad:, and really that anger is just how I and I'm sure many others reflect a sense of helplessness in this world. The parents of these children couldn't have done anything, to prevent this from happening. People can say, Oh well kids of such a young age shouldn't be roaming the streets by themselves. But the fact of the matter is that it was in broad daylight in their own locale, and was nothing out of the ordinary. Makes you think about the fine line that exists between normality and chrisis, and soon things start to fall in to perspective.

;-phobos-)

Shinji

Whether a dedicated FBI style team to deal with child abductions would be a sensible use of police resources is a matter of debate

Not child abductions specifically - serious crime in general. Very similar setup to the way the feds work in the USA. Right now there are special task forces to deal with terrorism, drugs etc - but no general purpose serious crime tackling force. It'd be a useful addition, I think.

the sun have issued a new fatwa against the internet

Bleh - I didn't know they'd decided to sound off about it again, sigh. I knew that several news agencies pounced on the fact that one of the lasses in this case used the internet (chatrooms/forums etc I think) and of course this meant that her abductor would be some internet paedophile type. The fact that the guy who's been arrested had probably never used the net in his life is unlikely to stop them from using this to back up their usual "ban this filth" arguments about the net... Which, sadly, the government then uses as ammunition when proposing its latest and greatest set of anti-privacy laws.

I think the most sickening thing about this case is that it'll now be torn apart and twisted to fit the agendas of politicians and newspapers. A lot of people I've spoken to today have had their sadness over what happened to those girls tempered by their anger over the fact that their deaths will undoubtedly be manipulated in this way - just like the "Sarah's Law" rubbish and the vigilanteism which followed the Payne case.

mayhem#

You know these kind of events made me believe more and more that hanging child-molesters from the neck is a very good idea.
These kind of people have repeatedly proven that there is no such thing as rehabilitation. And even if there was, I do not believe that child-molesters should be allowed back into society, ever.

Shinji

These kind of people have repeatedly proven that there is no such thing as rehabilitation.

Got some facts to back that up? Or is this just you frothing at the mouth?

And even if there was, I do not believe that child-molesters should be allowed back into society, ever.

Oh yeah, the principles of justice and forgiveness are alive and well here alright! Muppet.

DiscoStu

I think the most sickening thing about this case is that it'll now be torn apart and twisted to fit the agendas of politicians and newspapers. A lot of people I've spoken to today have had their sadness over what happened to those girls tempered by their anger over the fact that their deaths will undoubtedly be manipulated in this way - just like the "Sarah's Law" rubbish and the vigilanteism which followed the Payne case.

it already has. since the girls went missing has there been a day where the tabloids or sky news hasn't run some kind of sensationalist trash story? at the begining we had skys daily poll on should the internet be banned? and the sun, express etc. offering one million reward for information. no doubt over the coming days it will escalate with more sickening self serving people and organisations jumping on the bandwagon to push their ratings and agendas on the back of a terrible crime.

mayhem#

Who are you calling a muppet, Gonzo?

I had an unknown car drive into my yard this week (and I live in a quite remote spot), he driver atempted to talk to my five year old daughter who was playing outside. When he spotted my wife getting up from the kitchen table to go outside he did a fast u-turn and sped off.
Make of that what you want.....

I do not take chances with the lives and security of my children, period.
You on the other hand seem to be more concerned about the rights of some stranger....

BuffyBot

Originally posted by Shinji
Bleh - I didn't know they'd decided to sound off about it again, sigh. I knew that several news agencies pounced on the fact that one of the lasses in this case used the internet (chatrooms/forums etc I think) and of course this meant that her abductor would be some internet paedophile type. The fact that the guy who's been arrested had probably never used the net in his life is unlikely to stop them from using this to back up their usual "ban this filth" arguments about the net... Which, sadly, the government then uses as ammunition when proposing its latest and greatest set of anti-privacy laws.

I think the most sickening thing about this case is that it'll now be torn apart and twisted to fit the agendas of politicians and newspapers. A lot of people I've spoken to today have had their sadness over what happened to those girls tempered by their anger over the fact that their deaths will undoubtedly be manipulated in this way - just like the "Sarah's Law" rubbish and the vigilanteism which followed the Payne case.

I think you summed it up nicely there. Nuff said.

The Gopher

I hope you reported that Mayhem-theres been several attempts in recent weeks in Louth and Belfast.Thought id tell you that one of the would be abductors has red hair and a goatee i think it said-ring a bell?If it does id seriously consider calling,though even if it dont id call anyway.
Shinji-Get to the real world.Getting a paedophile to give up his attraction to kids is like getting your average man on the street to never be attracted to beautiful women-its near impossible,and i believe they should never be allowed out.Some of these ****s get sentenced to spend a few years on the register if its a first offence.Is that fair?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

kamobe

What really gets me with this case, is that there was two of em involved. The girl could have been their teacher, and the guy is the flockin' caretaker ffs. Was it planned? Hardly a paedophile type case, although, we dont know anything at this stage. But my point; two people in this together. Both of em consenting, and giving "heart felt" interviews with the press. The lady even had a card, given to her by one of the kids, with her ffs.

Terribly upsetting

BJJ

It's still unknown if the couple killed the girls, and the trial and case may take a long time.


Couples Murdering people or commiting such horrid acts is not a very uncommon event.

There have been a few such incidents before. and not just Bonnie & Clyde.


The West Family in England. the Moors murderers a couple that kidnapped and tortured victims, and taped/recorded their suffering.

Also a sick Couple may be a lot more trusting and respectable than a lonely sick man.

mayhem#

Originally posted by daveirl

The death penalty never works

It takes the offender of the streets, permanently...

Shinji

Ahhh, you're a parent. That kinda explains your attitude - natural instinct for protection of your kids at all costs tends to make parents massively unreasonable when it comes to talking about issues like this, which is half the problem.

Remember one thing: these people are human beings too. For the most part, they are suffering from a mental illness through no particular fault of their own - they didn't "choose" to be attracted to children any more than a gay person "chooses" to be attracted to people of the same gender. In many cases - the vast majority - rehabilitation is possible; you can't necessarily prevent them from being attracted to children (some tests have shown this to be possible, but it's early days yet on that kind of treatment) but you can certainly adjust their behaviour to be acceptable to society.

Now, this isn't to say that there aren't some fúcking evil bástards out there - one that always chills my blood is Ian Brady, the guy responsible for the moors murders - who can never be rehabilitated. But screaming blue murder about the death penalty for all paedophiles smacks of nothing but ignorance. Yes, it's your role as a parent to protect your children as best you can, but it's society's role to decide what's best for everyone, not just for you...

mayhem#

So I am a parent, so I want to protect my children at all costs and that makes me un-reasonable?!
Get a ****in' grip man, the only thing that is un-reasonable is yor limp wristed attitude to issues that you obviously have not got the slightest understanding of.
The fact that these offenders are human beings does not excempt them from receiving the death penalty, people have been killed for less. I don't give a flying **** wether it is their fault that they suffer from this mental illness, they are a threat to society and children in particular and should be taken off the streets permanently.

Do you really want to risk the life of any child just so you can be PC and understanding?!

Shinji

yor limp wristed attitude to issues that you obviously have not got the slightest understanding of.

You're the one who barged in shouting about hanging people and the impossibility of rehabilitation - you clearly know fúck all about the issues other than what you've read in the tabloids, so don't give me shít about not having the "slightest understanding" of what I'm talking about. It's NOT a simple issue and you've blatantly not taken the time to educate yourself about anything to do with it.

Your lynch mob mentality doesn't solve anything, and never will.

The fact that these offenders are human beings does not excempt them from receiving the death penalty, people have been killed for less.

We don't use the death penalty any more, and with good reason. Our legal system continually manages to find innocent people guilty - which is bad enough when you're putting them in prison, but once you've put someone to death, saying "oops sorry we were wrong" afterwards is a bit bloody pointless. Society has out-grown the death penalty. That said, since you're apparently applying caveman "fire burns, fire bad!" logic to this issue anyway, I doubt that bothers you much.

I don't give a flying **** wether it is their fault that they suffer from this mental illness

Nice, real nice.

Here's a question for you - would you feel the same if one of your kids, a couple of decades down the line, is arrested for posession of child pornography, or for attempting to pick up kids? And don't give me the "it wouldn't happen" outraged response, because these people don't come from broken homes or abusive parents or whatever, lots of them come from perfectly good families.

Do you really want to risk the life of any child just so you can be PC and understanding?!

You risk the life of your child every time you drive them somewhere in a car. You risk the life of your child every time you let them play outside. You risk the life of your child every time you give them food to eat. The world is full of risks, and while we try to reduce them as much as possible for children - because children are the most precious thing our society has - you can't make them just go away with the kind of crap you're advocating.

A fifteen year old boy was arrested last week in England for posessing child pornography. That boy is someone's child too.

Gordon

/me steps over the licks of flames.

I just don't understand how the bodies are not yet identified, this must suggest a bloody murder, hacked limbs? They couldn't even tell the sex of the children last I saw. That's some mutilation in my books.

mayhem#

Originally posted by Shinji


You're the one who barged in shouting about hanging people and the impossibility of rehabilitation - you clearly know fúck all about the issues other than what you've read in the tabloids, so don't give me shít about not having the "slightest understanding" of what I'm talking about. It's NOT a simple issue and you've blatantly not taken the time to educate yourself about anything to do with it.

Your lynch mob mentality doesn't solve anything, and never will.



We don't use the death penalty any more, and with good reason. Our legal system continually manages to find innocent people guilty - which is bad enough when you're putting them in prison, but once you've put someone to death, saying "oops sorry we were wrong" afterwards is a bit bloody pointless. Society has out-grown the death penalty. That said, since you're apparently applying caveman "fire burns, fire bad!" logic to this issue anyway, I doubt that bothers you much.



Nice, real nice.

Here's a question for you - would you feel the same if one of your kids, a couple of decades down the line, is arrested for posession of child pornography, or for attempting to pick up kids? And don't give me the "it wouldn't happen" outraged response, because these people don't come from broken homes or abusive parents or whatever, lots of them come from perfectly good families.



You risk the life of your child every time you drive them somewhere in a car. You risk the life of your child every time you let them play outside. You risk the life of your child every time you give them food to eat. The world is full of risks, and while we try to reduce them as much as possible for children - because children are the most precious thing our society has - you can't make them just go away with the kind of crap you're advocating.

A fifteen year old boy was arrested last week in England for posessing child pornography. That boy is someone's child too.

Shinji,

Seeing from the fact that you start dragging up non-sensical arguments such as "you clearly know fúck all about the issues other than what you've read in the tabloids", "You risk the life of your child every time you drive them somewhere in a car." and most of all "A fifteen year old boy was arrested last week in England for posessing child pornography. That boy is someone's child too" it is clearly a waste of time arguing with you....

Lemming

Originally posted by mayhem#

The fact that these offenders are human beings does not excempt them from receiving the death penalty, people have been killed for less. I don't give a flying **** wether it is their fault that they suffer from this mental illness, they are a threat to society and children in particular and should be taken off the streets permanently.

Do you really want to risk the life of any child just so you can be PC and understanding?!

I've not read the rest of this thread yet, so apologies if anyone has mentioned this already, but .....

what if the wrong person is convicted and then executed? Do YOU get executed for the murder of another innocent mayhem?

mayhem#

Originally posted by Lemming


I've not read the rest of this thread yet, so apologies if anyone has mentioned this already, but .....

what if the wrong person is convicted and then executed? Do YOU get executed for the murder of another innocent mayhem?

That my friend, is a complately different issue alltogether......

Lemming

Originally posted by mayhem#


That my friend, is a complately different issue alltogether......

No it isn't. You've called for a mandatory death-sentence for crime 'X' (in this case for crimes against children). Sooner or later an innocent person is going to end up on the gallows/firing line/gas chamber/injection-chair.

What happens then? Since you've called for THAT mandatory (and rather "FINAL") sentence. Not only have you just had another life taken to sate your bloodlust, but you've given the real criminal a new start, since nobody is looking for him/her anymore.

mayhem#

So what do you suggest?
Not having capital punishment because of the possibilty of convicting the wrong person?!

Shinji

Not having capital punishment because of the possibilty of convicting the wrong person?!

Oddly enough I think that's exactly what he's suggesting. I know it's a difficult concept to get your mind around, but give it a shot eh?

(I like the way you've dismissed every point I raised as "non-sensical" - nice tactic there! Really makes you look intelligent and knowledgable too you know, and not at all like a neanderthal!)

Lemming

Originally posted by mayhem#
So what do you suggest?
Not having capital punishment because of the possibilty of convicting the wrong person?!

Well .. actually, yeah.

How would you like it if a child/blood-relative of yours is sentenced to death for a crime that you /KNOW/ they didn't commit, yet can't prove it at this moment in time.

Why do you think the criminal justice sytem has an appeals court. Sometimes they DO get things wrong.

Venom

Not having capital punishment because of the possibilty of convicting the wrong person?!

Damm straight.

Considering how crap the English legal system is,there is no way any civilised person could think that a move towards the death penalty is a smart move.

The Birmingham 6 case springs to mind.

And in reguards to the two people arrested,arnt you guys forgetting the old innocent until proven guilty part of the law!

swiss

I must say that beyond a superficial look at the tabloid news, I haven't really been keeping up to date on this particular case. I assume that since people have been arrested and held for questioning, they have material evidence to hold them.

I know this sound naive, but I still can't imagine why anyone would want to commit such a despicable acts to children. If it's to satisfy a sexual perversion of theirs, then clearly their mental stability is called into question. In this case I would be hesitant to advocate the death penalty (I am against the death penalty anyway).

mayhem#, I understand your position. As a parent you feel compelled to protect your children as best you can. A friend of mine told me that it is well and good to espouse understanding of child abusers/murderers but should anyone touch one of your loved ones, the natural reaction would be to kill the bastard responsible.

Perhaps people have been killed for less, but I like to think that there are alternatives to killing to minimise the problem. Notice I said the word mimimise. Even if we were to take the COA that you propose, it would be impossible to successfully identify and neutralise all known or suspected child abusers. As for taking them off the street for good, we could place them either in a prison or a mental institution - perhaps for the rest of their natural lives.

I think the answer to this lies in the motivations behind these despicable acts. Is it like a mental illness, a perversion that the perpetrator feels needs to be satiated - or is it a more planned, colder approach - the hallmark of more rational thinking. If the latter is the case, how does one describe it other than pure evil. When it comes to dealing with evil, I am always reminded of a quote by Friedrich Neitzchse

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

In other words, a consuming desire for revenge can erode qualities of compassion, understanding and tolerance.

Any person that commits such horrendous acts to another human being is still just that - a human being. We cannot, as a society drag ourselves down to that level to satiate our own desire for revenge.

Clintons Cat

<edit>good post swiss</edit>
its really torn the guts out of the local community,at this time of year the local kids are usually tearing up and down being a general nuisence like kids generally do,but since the abductions they dont dare/are not allowed out of their gardens.I will be working fordham market on BH monday which is only a couple of miles down the road from soham,Usually it is one of the most laid back and relaxed family market days of the year,somehow i dont think its going to be the same this year.
Its a terrible atmosphere of suspicion and fear,around the fens though not as bad as when Tony Martin shot those teenage burgalars,then there was a tangible external scapegoat on which to channel those irrational fears of rural crime,on to travellers in general.
In this instance (if it is proven the case)in many ways it will be harder for people to come to terms with the fact that the murderers and abducters came from within the community,not some bogey man in a white van like in the sarah payne case,people that they knew and were in a position of trust ,people with whom they might have spoken to or even formed a liking/friendship for.
I just wish the tabloids would let the matter rest and not mawkishly pin some badly thought out and totally impractical internet campaign on to the memories of two little girls.
The community deserves better.

Quigs Snr

I couldn't care less about the morality of it. If someone did this to my daughter and I knew beyond doubt that it was them, I would kill them will my bare hands and sleep easy that night. Thats not being emotive, thats what I feel I'd do.

Off the moral high horses for a second lads. Mayhem is basically saying that he would not forgive someone who killed/abused a child, and would rather see them dead. I think, turbo PC mode switched off and applying that to your own family, very few of us would see things any differently. Personally, I don't believe in rehabilitation either, I don't give second chances, I don't expect to get them either. If someone crosses me, I don't give them an opportunity to do it again. There can be no forgiveness in this case, if those 2 people are proven guilty, do you think the families will forgive them ? If you were them could you ?

Look on the bright side, if someone does get convicted for this, then they can look forward to a whole lot of pain when they get to the slammer. The inmates hate anyone who has harmed a child.

I have seen what a case like this does to the community, people don't forget, people, don't forgive, people get angry. Anyone here from Waterford may cast their minds back to 1987 and the abuse and Violent (filleted like a fish) murder of 7yr old Kyle Curran.
When you have experienced that, it tends to taint your view of ...and justice for all.

There is the possibility of people being convicted wrongly, but thats another debate.

Shinji

Quigs - this is why our society has evolved to the point where we do NOT allow victims to decide the punishment of the criminals. Justice needs to be objective and impartial, otherwise it isn't justice... The victims want their pound of flesh (literally, quite often) and they always feel aggrieved when the justice system fails to hang, draw and quarter the offender.

The system isn't meant to be a lynch mob; it was meant to elevate our justice BEYOND the levels of the lynch mob, which is what both you and Mayhem are talking about.

mayhem#

Shinji,

You're talking about the law, me and Quigs are talking about justice.
Big difference....

Shinji

No, I'm talking about justice, and you're talking about revenge. The difference is that the victims always think revenge IS justice....

swiss

Originally posted by mayhem#:

You're talking about the law, me and Quigs are talking about justice.
Big difference...

You are right. There is a big difference between a lynch mob attitude and a just trial where both sides present their arguments and a final verdict is reached by a (relatively) disinterested jury.

Lets say we take the COA (course of action) you suggest. Someone is arrested for murdering/molesting a child. The person is summarily executed by whatever means is determined the most painful/expedient. On the surface, justice appears to have been served - the child has been avenged and there is no chance of a repeat offence by this perpetrator.

Now a precedent is set. If we were to assume that the perpetrators are rational and are afraid of the potential consequences of the actions then this should be a strong enough deterrent to stop most reoccurrances. However, if this is not the case then another case will crop up. The perp may or may not be found, and if he is he is executed.

Say these 'justice' killings then be extended to include other murders. After all if they murder they abrogate their own right to life, right? Who cares about 'mitigating circumstances'? Pretty soon we would revert to a society where the efficacity of the law and police forces are seriously compromised.

Leaving the above point alone for a moment there is a school of thought that teaches us that it is not wise to take serious decisions when our emotions are running high. Our anger clouds our reason and judgement, and the consequences can lead to terrible mistakes being made.

In short, the justice to which you and Quigs Snr refer will assuage the desire for vengence on the part of society - but ultimately would undermine the rule of law to such an extent by flagrantly taking punishment out of the courts that one could envisage a return to a lawless society, where justice is dispensed by the 'mob'.

The Gopher

Anybody who makes the point of saying that more kids are killed by their parents and so hysteria is unjustified has been smoking too much crack.While the law cannot protect a violent person becoming a parent and killing their child it can prevent a pervert being released from jail to attack more kids.In most cases where a child is murdered by a stranger it will emerge the killer had previous sex offense convictions.This isnt allowed to be heard before or during the trial as it could prejeduice the jury.What i hate is the PC **** surrounding it all.

m1ke

Sounds to me like you're talking about revenge and advocating state sponsored murder. Murdering the offenders isn't the solution to the problem of children being harmed and abducted. It's much more important that this **** never happens again.

Treating the people who would potentially do these things - before they get the chance to do them is the way forward. A lot of people would say how the hell can this be done ? I don't know but i'm sure it's possible if government/society dedicates itself to tackling the root of our problems and not just providing services to clean up the mess and dish out the consequences.

Clintons Cat

There is the possibility of people being convicted wrongly, but thats another debate.

no that is at the heart of the argument.Any one who has followed the series of Rough Justice Campaigns Screened on the BBC throughout the eighties and nineties will be aware of how slow the British judicial system is to acnowledge a mistake has been made and that an innocent person has been put in prison.
In many cases the cases where there has been the greatest media pressure to get a conviction have been the ones where there have been the greatest risk of miscarridges of justice.The carl bridgewater murder springs most readilly to mind,it took over twenty years for the courts to acknowledge there had been a miscarraige of justice,what would have happened if they had been hung,how would that have served the notions of justice?

Jak

Revenge and justice are not necessarily mutually exclusive concepts Shinji.

In any case obviously we all find the crime abhorrent and a little difficult to accept. In an ideal world the best solution would be to anticipate the danger and treat these people prior to their acts. Clearly they suffer from some condition which makes them unsafe and unacceptable to keep in day to day society.

But the issue lies in the fact that we cannot reliably anticipate such actions and in my opinion the efforts at treatment would appear to be hit and miss at best (based on re-offence stats and literature) and that is without accounting for offences that go unreported after treatment.

So as usual we are left in the unpleasant situation of how to deal with the problem in the aftermath. In the case of these crimes, I do not think the punishment for the crime works well as a deterrent – but I see no harm in extreme penalties on the off chance such a deterrent might have even the slightest positive effect.

I feel there should be a punishment for the crime, and more importantly I wish to be assured that the said individual will never offend again. The death penalty achieves both. However, I believe that unless guilt can be 100% assured – the risk is too great for error. If the justice system could operate flawlessly however, I have no issue with the death penalty as punishment for certain crimes – certain actions waive certain human rights in my book. As callous as it may sound, people die frequently in accidents, natural disasters, personal attacks and wars who do not ‘deserve’ to die – if you can show me a man guilty of killing those two girls, then to be blunt, I would lose no sleep if he was killed for it.

However we do not have a flawless system and as such cannot safely bring in a death penalty across the board for such crimes, which leaves life in prison – and life should mean LIFE. This again will achieve punishment and ensure they do not offend again, but more importantly, it will leave the door open should a mistake have been made.

JAK.

mike65

Trying to work out the motivations of child killers seems pretty
much impossible, they're working on a completely different
wavelength to well-balanced folk. Killing them will make not a whit
of difference either, it would'nt be any sort of deterent as such people are driven by desires that are stronger than the fear of punishment. The best that can be done in a civilised society
is to throw the key away a-la Ian Brady.

As regards childrens safety, abduction by strangers (ie outside the family) is actually very rare in the UK, only a handful of cases a year, unlike the USA where nu nmbers reach the tens of thousands. Most of course do not end in murder. However such is the media blitz most parents will think thier children are in greater danger now than two weeks ago. Which is nonsence.

The Brass-Eye "paedophile special" spoof was a brilliant satire on how the public has been manipulated by mass-media since the Sarah Payne abduction. Those who lust for quick "justice" should consider whether they wish to do the bidding of a trashy paper
and then become the subject of that same cynical media. You'll sell lots of copies for them.

Mike.

Quigs Snr

Well said Jak. They say, when you chose revenge, dig two graves (one for yourself obviously). It is a destructive emotion.

However, we are animals and are programmed in a certain way. I am not pro death penalty, as mentioned already, the possibility of being wrong, makes this too much of a risk.

The trouble with being given life is that there are too many bleeding hearts in this world. People are campaigning for Myra Hindley to be let out for gods sake, on compasionate terms, what compassion did she show ? No these people should be locked up and the key thrown away, with no possibility of release ever, regardless of legislation change wether they are a risk or not.

It still doesn't change the fact that if I were those girls father, and knew who did it, I would be digging a shallow grave for them.
Just like the distraught woman outside the courthouse with a knife who tried to kill the bastard who killed Kyle Curran in 1987.
It's a primal instinct. It's VERY easy to pontificate from afar, but when it's you or someone close to you, rational thinking, Political Correctness and justice don't come into it. I have followed this thing closely and feel sickened by it, I can only imagine what the parents feel.

And why the hell is it taking so long to identify the bodies ? I shudder to think.

mayhem#

Originally posted by Shinji
No, I'm talking about justice, and you're talking about revenge. The difference is that the victims always think revenge IS justice....

No, I think that if someone mollests or murders a child that they should receive suitable punishment. (However I do agree that it has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt that they are guilty.)
The only punishment fitting for an act like that is death....

Shinji

People are campaigning for Myra Hindley to be let out for gods sake, on compasionate terms, what compassion did she show ?

To be fair, most of the campaigners for her release tend to point out that in a lot of ways she was a victim as well - she was utterly terrified of Ian Brady and would never have even contemplated doing the things she did were it not for his insistence. She's not in prison for the things she did any more - she's in prison because at the time, she was utterly demonised by the media, and they still haven't forgotten her. Don't you find it a little odd that when they write about her now, they still use the peroxide blond "evil stare" photograph that we all know and despise (and which was recently shown to have been airbrushed to give darker shadows under the eyes etc and make her look more evil), despite the availability of many more recent photographs? I guess it's harder to justify calling someone the daughter of satan when she's in inoffensive 70-something who looks like someone's granny...

It still doesn't change the fact that if I were those girls father, and knew who did it, I would be digging a shallow grave for them.

I know - I hear you on this, and I understand what you mean. I'd be the same, I'd want to see the bástard suffer if it was someone close to me that had been the victim of something like this. But... that doesn't mean I'd be right. Impartial decisions are the basis of true justice.

Turnip

Originally posted by Quigs Snr
I couldn't care less about the morality of it. If someone did this to my daughter and I knew beyond doubt that it was them, I would kill them will my bare hands and sleep easy that night. Thats not being emotive, thats what I feel I'd do.

I am always suspicious of people like this, who say they would enjoy killing or torturing a criminal. In many cases, murderers, rapists and child abusers commit terrible crimes because they lack self esteem and enjoy the feeling of power they get. Death penalty supporters seem to have similar underlying motives and have the same primitive urge to inflict pain or humiliation on other human beings using whatever justification they can come up with.

I would hope that if I found myself in a situation where a family member was murdered or abducted I would be able to display the same dignity and humanity that Gordon Wilson did when his daughter was blown up by the IRA in the Enniskillen bomb. He said "I have lost my daughter and we shall miss her, but I bear no ill will. I bear no grudge. Dirty sort of talk is not going to bring her back to life. She was a great wee lassie."

mayhem#

Originally posted by swiss

Lets say we take the COA (course of action) you suggest. Someone is arrested for murdering/molesting a child. The person is summarily executed by whatever means is determined the most painful/expedient.

Did I ever mention summary excecution? I don't think so!
The criminal will still have to stand trail and all measures possible will have to be taken so that onky guilty persons are convicted.

Now a precedent is set. If we were to assume that the perpetrators are rational and are afraid of the potential consequences of the actions then this should be a strong enough deterrent to stop most reoccurrances. However, if this is not the case then another case will crop up. The perp may or may not be found, and if he is he is executed.

Say these 'justice' killings then be extended to include other murders. After all if they murder they abrogate their own right to life, right? Who cares about 'mitigating circumstances'? Pretty soon we would revert to a society where the efficacity of the law and police forces are seriously compromised.

Leaving the above point alone for a moment there is a school of thought that teaches us that it is not wise to take serious decisions when our emotions are running high. Our anger clouds our reason and judgement, and the consequences can lead to terrible mistakes being made.

In short, the justice to which you and Quigs Snr refer will assuage the desire for vengence on the part of society - but ultimately would undermine the rule of law to such an extent by flagrantly taking punishment out of the courts that one could envisage a return to a lawless society, where justice is dispensed by the 'mob'.

I also did not say that capital punishment should only serve as a deterent. It should also serve as punishment (hence the name), you do something wrong, you receive fitting punishment, period.

mayhem#

Originally posted by m1ke
Sounds to me like you're talking about revenge and advocating state sponsored murder. Murdering the offenders isn't the solution to the problem of children being harmed and abducted. It's much more important that this **** never happens again.

Treating the people who would potentially do these things - before they get the chance to do them is the way forward. A lot of people would say how the hell can this be done ? I don't know but i'm sure it's possible if government/society dedicates itself to tackling the root of our problems and not just providing services to clean up the mess and dish out the consequences.

Take them out of society for good and they won't re-offend....

mayhem#

Originally posted by Clintons Cat


no that is at the heart of the argument.Any one who has followed the series of Rough Justice Campaigns Screened on the BBC throughout the eighties and nineties will be aware of how slow the British judicial system is to acnowledge a mistake has been made and that an innocent person has been put in prison.
In many cases the cases where there has been the greatest media pressure to get a conviction have been the ones where there have been the greatest risk of miscarridges of justice.The carl bridgewater murder springs most readilly to mind,it took over twenty years for the courts to acknowledge there had been a miscarraige of justice,what would have happened if they had been hung,how would that have served the notions of justice?

No, there are two issues being discussed here;
1) fitting punishment for child molesters.
2) Faults and in-efficiencies in the judicial system.

mayhem#

Originally posted by Turnip

I am always suspicious of people like this, who say they would enjoy killing or torturing a criminal. In many cases, murderers, rapists and child abusers commit terrible crimes because they lack self esteem and enjoy the feeling of power they get. Death penalty supporters seem to have similar underlying motives and have the same primitive urge to inflict pain or humiliation on other human beings using whatever justification they can come up with.

I would hope that if I found myself in a situation where a family member was murdered or abducted I would be able to display the same dignity and humanity that Gordon Wilson did when his daughter was blown up by the IRA in the Enniskillen bomb. He said "I have lost my daughter and we shall miss her, but I bear no ill will. I bear no grudge. Dirty sort of talk is not going to bring her back to life. She was a great wee lassie."

Did Quigs say anywhere that he would enjoy it?
**** off stupid Troll...

Turnip

Does anyone else think the media coverage of the abductions has been horribly exploitive and cynical?