Part 2 on the ntl review isn't working

jimbob

Part 2 isn't working on my computer please check your links.
I have to say that part 1 was excellent though.

colinsky

try http://www.iolfree.ie/~icdg/ntl_dig_roi_review_2.htm for part two (extra underscore)

DMC

As stated in ICDG's Apologies announcment at the top of each board.

Brian OD

in the end, anyone choosing NTL Digital is likely to do so because of the multi-room viewing - as I did

From the ntl digital review. Can anybody explain this logic? You need your analogue connection for multiroonm viewing, the digital box has nothing to do with it.
Getting Sky does not stop your multiroom viewing. My basic cable connection exists happily alongside my Sky Digital box. Sky box or cable box...what's the difference? Apart from dozens of channels that is, including - as the reviewer lamented, the UKtv channels...

I always have to laugh at ntl's pathetic and desperate ad campaigns. The multiroom thing is one. Since when do Sky take away your cable connection?! Or like the tv one about so many channels with nothing on them...getting ntl digital will only fill up ONE of those channels, the rest will STILL have nothing on them!

icdg

The logic is as follows.

There is over a tenner a month difference in the cost of NTL analogue + NTL Digital, than the NTL analogue +Sky Digital Family Pack (Perhaps someone might like to put the exact prices here?)

The point is, this ads up to over a hundred euro a year, which many people would rather save.

Of course you can keep your cable connection when you take Sky Digital. But its' cheaper to take NTL digital, if you are set on keeping your analogue cable connection. (It is obligitary to keep analogue cable when taking digital cable with NTL).

Its a very significant difference, especially for people who do not have money to burn.


Now, back to the task at hand...the link should be fixed in approx 5 minutes time. Then I'm off to sleep...

Brian OD

So let me get this straight...when you stated that you chose ntl over Sky for the multi-room viewing, what you actually meant is that it was the cost difference that persuaded you? You seem just a little confused!!! You do need to go to bed.

You lamented not having one or more channels on ntl, at the price there are bound to be some losses. You get what you pay for...

Originally posted by Brian OD
So let me get this straight...when you stated that you chose ntl over Sky for the multi-room viewing, what you actually meant is that it was the cost difference that persuaded you? You seem just a little confused!!! You do need to go to bed.

You lamented not having one or more channels on ntl, at the price there are bound to be some losses. You get what you pay for...

Eh???

you cannot say that.
In order to get anything other than crappy fta channels with a second Sky box you need to pay a fortune in ROI, ie a whole second subscription

At least with NTL-you get All their 20 or so analog channels-all over the house along with the extra digital service with the most popular channels(Sci-fi ) in one place.For that I'll gladly give up Ben tv etc
Sky vs NTL - no Contest.
ICDG, you ain't that sleepy at all:)
mm

Brian OD

Eh????

You really need to read posts properly before you reply.

Firstly, where does a second Skybox come into anything? We are talking about distribution of ntl's analogue cable...you can no more choose extra digital channels without an extra ntl digital box than a Sky one.

ICDG, you ain't that sleepy at all

I beg to differ. While everybody should choose the package that suits them, I questioned ICDG's statement that he went with ntl digital on the basis of multi-room viewing - when choosing Sky Digital does not deprive you of this (a point you seem totally confused about too..is it any wonder that ntl's misleading advertisements work so well!).
His reply ignored my point and talked exclusively about financial differences between the two, a good enough reason to choose ntl over Sky in itself, but NOT the reason he had given and ignored offering a justification for.

Now this is his site and he's entitled to run it how he pleases, but being the owner of the site gives him a certain responsibility and making false, inaccurate, or at the very least misleading, statements could land him in a bit of hot water, that is if Sky deem the site important enough.

t least with NTL-you get All their 20 or so analog channels-all over the house along with the extra digital service with the most popular channels(Sci-fi ) in one place.For that I'll gladly give up Ben tv etc

As mentioned, I have all those '20 or so analog channels all over the house with an extra digital service, but mine is Sky. I keep all my favourite channels in one place by adding them to my favourites menu - simple really. Of course, my favourites might not be the same as yours, making your point that about ntl's grouping of channels a mute one.

Oh, and for every Ben tv you quote at me, I can quote you a UK Gold...or a UK Drama...or a UK Horizons...or a , well I'm sure you get the picture.

Originally posted by Brian OD
Eh????

You really need to read posts properly before you reply.

Firstly, where does a second Skybox come into anything? We are talking about distribution of ntl's analogue cable...you can no more choose extra digital channels without an extra ntl digital box than a Sky one.



I beg to differ. While everybody should choose the package that suits them, I questioned ICDG's statement that he went with ntl digital on the basis of multi-room viewing - when choosing Sky Digital does not deprive you of this (a point you seem totally confused about too..is it any wonder that ntl's misleading advertisements work so well!).
His reply ignored my point and talked exclusively about financial differences between the two, a good enough reason to choose ntl over Sky in itself, but NOT the reason he had given and ignored offering a justification for.

Now this is his site and he's entitled to run it how he pleases, but being the owner of the site gives him a certain responsibility and making false, inaccurate, or at the very least misleading, statements could land him in a bit of hot water, that is if Sky deem the site important enough.


As mentioned, I have all those '20 or so analog channels all over the house with an extra digital service, but mine is Sky. I keep all my favourite channels in one place by adding them to my favourites menu - simple really. Of course, my favourites might not be the same as yours, making your point that about ntl's grouping of channels a mute one.

Oh, and for every Ben tv you quote at me, I can quote you a UK Gold...or a UK Drama...or a UK Horizons...or a , well I'm sure you get the picture.

I did read all of your post, obviously you didn't read mine, so a little clarification...

If you are not connected to NTL, and only have Sky digital, the maximum you can have in terms of multi channel viewing without the Sky box is Nine,eight four or three channels, depending on where you live and what your aerial can get.
I think thats what ICDG meant and I think thats what NTL are referring to when they advertise their service as being the only one that allows multi room viewing .
You would want serious ironmongery to receive more than 4 channels in Waterford and would be stuck with the 4 altogether in Galway City without NTL.

NTL are certainly not being misleading when they advertise their service as a "multi room" one.
Afterall you can have it in any room with a socket, ie their 20 or so analog channels.
We are not refering to Terrestrial reception here, we are discussing delivery platforms bringing viewers several channels in either digital or analog form via a set top box, cable connection or both.

Firstly, where does a second Skybox come into anything? We are talking about distribution of ntl's analogue cable...you can no more choose extra digital channels without an extra ntl digital box than a Sky one.

I repeat what I said....At least with NTL Godigital you get to keep their Analog service in as many rooms as you want.
For to get the same thing from Sky, ie get their delivery platform with Family pack into another room with the ability to watch different channels in their package in different rooms,currently in ROI, that will cost you an extra sub!
Theres a big difference between the price of that and say having NTL analog and a sky sub.

I repeat again ICDG is not sleepy, if he's saying that NTL multiroom viewing with their go digital package won him over both on the Multi room bit and the price.
It's black and white.

As mentioned, I have all those '20 or so analog channels all over the house with an extra digital service, but mine is Sky. I keep all my favourite channels in one place by adding them to my favourites menu - simple really. Of course, my favourites might not be the same as yours, making your point that about ntl's grouping of channels a mute one.

Well, you are paying for All the channels on Sky regardless of what you have in your favourites(-except UTV and channel four of course:D which you won't be watching if murdock has his way, unless it's with a bbc card).Thats why you are charged more,but thats your choice and fair play to you for that.

NTL's channel line up, a mute point??? I don't think so.
When deciding between Sky digital and NTL go digital , you should factor in what you are paying for, and depending on circumstances affordability.The audience for channells like UK Gold would be tiny, but I agree with ICDG, they would be a welcome part of the go digital pack.
Part of the weighing up process involves deciding whether there is stuff on Sky digital thats not on NTL, that you would want.
If the person choosing thinks there is, they could go for the more expensive option that you have chosen and subscribe to both.


Originally posted by Brian OD:

Now this is his site and he's entitled to run it how he pleases, but being the owner of the site gives him a certain responsibility and making false, inaccurate, or at the very least misleading, statements could land him in a bit of hot water, that is if Sky deem the site important enough.

where exactly is ICDG making false/misleading/inacurate statements???
Here is a quote from his review on his site:

anyone choosing NTL Digital is likely to do so because of the multi-room viewing - as I did - or the cheaper price (if you're keeping analogue cable, that is).

Note the "or " in that statement;)
What ICDG posted in this thread addressed only the financial point.But then both are intertwined as surely if you want multiroom viewing you will go through the kind decision process I've outlined above before deciding what gives you the best value.
That decision will be different for everyone and we are all enitled to our opinions.
If I was Murdocks lawyer, I wouldn't be advising him to Sue ICDG based on whats in his site or posted here:mad:
To suggest that is Ridiculous.
mm

Brian OD

You've done it again. You really should read posts before you go off on a rant about them. Your own posts as well as mine btw...

Quoting you, quoting ICDG

anyone choosing NTL Digital is likely to do so because of the multi-room viewing - as I did - or the cheaper price (if you're keeping analogue cable, that is).

You went on to say

Note the "or " in that statement

Of course I note the "or" (I won't bother making it bold), but you need to notice the position of the word "or". It comes after "as I did", meaning his reason for choosing ntl is BEFORE the word "or". Elementary grammar

It was this reasoning that I asked him about but he ignored. He's quite entitled to do that, but you've made it so much bigger!



When I replied to your statement that ntl group all the popular channels together on their digital platform, it was to state that not only can you do that manually on Sky, but my 'popular' choice may not be the same as yours, or the rest of the people sharing my box for that matter. That does indeed make

NTL's channel line up, a mute point???

Why you went off about pricing etc I have no idea, it has nothing to do with your original point, or my follow-up.

BTW, look at ICDG's point that you quoted and this time continue on after the "or" (bold text), it says, in plain black & white, (if you're keeping analogue cable, that is).

There you go, the one sentence which started this whole debate negates your whole "different platforms" argument that you spent god knows how long typing - it has nothing to do with the discussion as it stood.

The discussion is a simple one - you've made it very complicated.

It is: if you're keeping analogue cable, should you choose Sky or ntl. As analogue cable is what gives you the multi-room viewing (irrespective of which digital package), my question still is, why would somebody choose ntl on that basis.

Care to reply without ranting at me?

DMC

Oh Christ, if we are going to be pedantic over the placing of words and grammer stop, please My brain hurts already (if anything in the last post made sense anyway...)

I will say one thing. The favourites option on Sky is not really a useful function for me, as I would have far more than 20 channels that I frequent regularly. The benefit of the NTL EPG is that the channels are weighed and is not fragmented as the Sky one is. It's hopeless, and if it was a PC, I'd run disk defrag.... Good one NTL.

You do not have the freedom to organise the EPG on the Sky system to your desires. No organising of "Favourites" can rectify that. You are limited to 20.

I'm not bad at the old typing actually:D

Will we have to get a team of Barristers out to decide who has read whose post or what??:D

From my last post:

When deciding between Sky digital and NTL go digital , you should factor in what you are paying for, and depending on circumstances affordability.The audience for channells like UK Gold would be tiny, but I agree with ICDG, they would be a welcome part of the go digital pack

Part of the weighing up process involves deciding whether there is stuff on Sky digital thats not on NTL, that you would want.

That answers your last question above.
My point regarding "or" refers toyour suggestion that Sky might sue ICDG for what he puts on his site.
He has stated that basically, choosing either Sky or godigital is down to either the multi-room thing or the cost.

In my own opinion,why would someone want to put up an ugly dish if a simple set top box is all thats needed.the only reason would be if one judged that one wanted channels not available on godigital.
That decision would be by far the more expensive option obviously.
Anyhow it's much easier to wire NTL godigital for all rooms than Sky digital, but like with all stb based things you run into more rental.

Why you went off about pricing etc I have no idea, it has nothing to do with your original point, or my follow-up.

Well it was actually you who said you get what you pay for so doesn't that make the above a mute point:D
In other words I am getting back to the theme of what I am saying here( and remember I am expressing my own opinions as well as addressing some of your issues with ICDG)

Now when this started poor old ICDG was tired and wanted to go to bed...it was late.
I'm off to do some work now.
mm

ozpass

Tee hee! I don't notice anyone here getting all evangelical about Chorus' digital offering!

Wonder why?

ShaneOC

Originally posted by ozpass
Tee hee! I don't notice anyone here getting all evangelical about Chorus' digital offering!

Wonder why?

Maybe because no-one has seen it working properly...

ozpass

Chorus are renaming the 'Discovery Channel' the 'Abstract Art Channel'!

Brian OD

madman,

You really don't have to be so abrasive with your replies. It is the opinion of a few that there is a clique in operation on this site where if anybody comes in and attempts debate with any of the members (or shock horror, the webmaster) yours is the kind of reply they can expect, or they can expect to be asked why they haven't read through the thousands of posts already made. You lot don't like newcomers here, do you?.

I made the point, very clearly, what the original debate was all about and how far you'd strayed off the mark, and how you keep shifting the goal posts in your replies, and most importantly, how you still rant and rave.

The piece you wrote about pricing was a direct reply to my point about Sky's channel arrangement, which was in response to your point about ntl's channel arrangement. Shifting the goalposts in your final post shows how pointless it is attempting to debate the issues with you, because you'll just shift the goalposts again.

You're shifting of the goalposts in relation to what you meant when you highlighted the word 'or' is also annoying, and makes debate with you very difficult.

DamoDMC gave a logical response to that point and it is one i accept. Sky's EPG is very fragmented and could do with a serious rethink.

ShaneOC

Put the handbags down

I have just read through the thread and my head hurts too. The strange thing is that to me you are both trying to make the same point.

This forum is usually quite a civil place with loads of useful information and from time to time a bit of humour too. People will always agree to disagree. I would not like to think that people do not feel welcome.

ozpass

This forum is usually quite a civil place with loads of useful information and from time to time a bit of humour too. People will always agree to disagree. I would not like to think that people do not feel welcome.

I can't help but agree with this statement. Everyone has been friendly and helpful to me, anyway- and I haven't always agreed with them.

Maybe I'm just a member of the 'clique' cos I hate Chorus as much as everyone else now;)

spongebob

this forum has no charter or stickies or rules.

thats coz everybody is normally nice to each other and nasty to the operators who obfuscate and lie and provide shoddy service, as it should.

DMC

Originally posted by Brian OD
You really don't have to be so abrasive with your replies. It is the opinion of a few that there is a clique in operation on this site where if anybody comes in and attempts debate with any of the members (or shock horror, the webmaster) yours is the kind of reply they can expect, or they can expect to be asked why they haven't read through the thousands of posts already made. You lot don't like newcomers here, do you?.

There is no clique here, most definitely not. Just a lot of people who have been here quite a while now, who are brilliant in solving cases for newbies, and whose technical knowledge about TV is amongst the best anyone can ask for. If we didn't make newbies welcome, this list would become quite stale and no longer useful. May I again take this opportunity to thank them once more for their continued contributions. They don't have to. "Other forums are available." Its voluntary and they do it in their own times at their own cost. Thank you again.

As I said in another thread....

....no need to go around slapping newbies with a wet fish about this, all newbies are welcome and don't have the time to go through the threads, but us established forum members can show them old thread and put them in the right direction.

In that case I went and told a long standing member of this board to ease off on the newbies. We love 'em If something has been discussed before, we show them the link of where it was discussed before, the most popular one being how to obtain a BBC card. This is done so for the newbies can catch up, while the boards remain fresh themsleves.

Members here are rational. If your argument is strong it will stand up and you may get other people agreeing with you. Frankly, in this case, you are turning your argument, how rational it may have been at the beginning, into a sissy fit, twisting the words of mods and members will not make you any friends, clique or not.

Cheers,

Damien.

ozpass

Once again, I couldn't agree more. I'm a newbie (a 'fast newbie', no less; see left) and I've found everyone here friendly and helpful. The worst I've received is a little playful digging about my cruddy choice of TV provider.

This is a smashing forum, in my humble opinion.

Originally posted by Brian OD
madman,

You really don't have to be so abrasive with your replies. It is the opinion of a few that there is a clique in operation on this site where if anybody comes in and attempts debate with any of the members (or shock horror, the webmaster) yours is the kind of reply they can expect, or they can expect to be asked why they haven't read through the thousands of posts already made. You lot don't like newcomers here, do you?.

I made the point, very clearly, what the original debate was all about and how far you'd strayed off the mark, and how you keep shifting the goal posts in your replies, and most importantly, how you still rant and rave.

The piece you wrote about pricing was a direct reply to my point about Sky's channel arrangement, which was in response to your point about ntl's channel arrangement. Shifting the goalposts in your final post shows how pointless it is attempting to debate the issues with you, because you'll just shift the goalposts again.

You're shifting of the goalposts in relation to what you meant when you highlighted the word 'or' is also annoying, and makes debate with you very difficult.

DamoDMC gave a logical response to that point and it is one i accept. Sky's EPG is very fragmented and could do with a serious rethink.

Heavens to Betsy-where exactly did I rant and rave???
I'm debating with you and you throw accusations about the place, like shifting goalposts,being abrasive and worse being in a clique here:eek: I've done none of that.

The only thing that , I think you could remotely regard as personal, might be when I said your statement regarding Sky having a law suit against ICDG was ridiculous.
That wasn't personal at all.I merely questioned rightly in my view what you said there...you never answered that as theres no evidence.
ICDG's review of go digital was pretty darn good, imho.

My case rested in my first two posts, this is turning out like a Stormont debate:D

mm

John R

I think that Brian OD's original point was a valid one, multi-room viewing is not a function of ntl digital, as their ad alludes to.
As the target customers for ntl digital are already ntl analogue customers (yes, there are people in ntl areas without either but few without cable so far are likely to be swayed by digital imo) they already have multi-room viewing, the addition of ntl digital does not have any effect on that. The difference between ntl and sky digital offerings is then down to price, channels, quality and one's opinion of satellite dishes.

In my case ntl digital is less suited to multi room viewing than SKY as the ntl box has no analogue pass through requiring a messy split and combine of the cable which reduces analogue signal quality, meaning that although I can watch sky digital in every room, the ntl digital is confined to the main room via scart.

As far as the regulars go I have not seen any bad attitudes towards newbies, or anyone else for that matter, in comparison to many forums I frequent ICDG is very polite and friendly, even to those that turn up and ask stupid questions that have been answered regularly before.

icdg

I have to here and now reject any charge that I have knowingly made any false or inacurate statements regarding either NTL Digital or SkyDigital in the review or here. But if there are any inaccurate statements you can point out, ICDG has an open door policy regarding corrections.

I pay attention to the laws regarding libel and slander and I would urge all members of the forum to do so. As I have said before, if there were the slightest hints of legal action, no matter how slight, the site would be immediately shut down and I would ask the Boards.ie administrators to close this forum and inform them of my resignation in any case as a moderator.

Thankfully I can inform the readers that this is not currently the case.

Now back to the thread topic.

To be fair, I didn't shirk from criticising NTL Digital - the platform's channel line up is poor compared to SkyDigital (though it is improving, the EMAP channels are meant to arrive this week, though UKTV would be nice!). And there is no interactive or text either.

Like I said, if you're keeping analogue cable, there is a significant enough price difference between NTL Digital and SkyDigital to make the former rather attractive.