RTE Moving To UHF Band?

IrishBazza

Can anyone confirm that the RTE signal is moving to the UHF Band? I have heard a few humours any time scale or clarification would be welcome.

I have a BBC Card, and have put an aerial in my antic. RTE 2,
TV 3 & TG4 is perfect. Howevever I am getting lines through my RTE1. I don't want to go to the trouble of installing it outside.

Would a booster help, any suggestions welcome.

Cheers

DMC

Um, your location would be helpful. If a VHF tx is being phased out in your area, we'd be able to find out.

lawhec

Although you don't state your location, RTÉ have a policy of converting the majority of the low powered relay stations. AFAIK most of them have now been converted although I'm not sure which ones remain on VHF waiting to be converted, as my last information is three years out of date! The exception to this is the Monaghan Town relay which will remain on VHF for the forseeable future, possibly due to the lack of free UHF frequencies in the local area.

There have also been problems in some areas where the new UHF signal doesn't perform as well as the old VHF signal. In Cork City RTÉ intended to shut down their VHF relay at Spur Hill after a UHF service had been available there for some years, but some VHF TX aerials were left connected to serve some in the West of the city as UHF reception there is poor.

Along with Monaghan Town, The main tranmitter stations at Kippure, Mount Leinster, Maghera, Mullaghanish and Truskmore will remain broadcasting on VHF until analogue TV in the Republic closes down. This was according to a statement RTÉ released some months ago.

Mountjoy Mugger

Originally posted by DamoDMC
Um, your location would be helpful. If a VHF tx is being phased out in your area, we'd be able to find out.

His profile says he lives in Kilcullen, if that's any help.

DMC

Nice one 'mugger!

If thats the Kildare one, Kippure should be A1 on Band III, no problem.

As you have clear TG4 and TV3, my bet is that you may not have a correct VHF aerial, or you are getting your signal from Three Rock on UHF, and with RTÉ 1 on ch29, you are getting a bit of co-channel interferance from Divis and its kill all signal of BBC 2 on ch27 and BBC 1 on ch31. You may have a Group A aerial when you need a wideband one.

Loads of senarios, lets hope we can narrow them down.

and have put an aerial in my antic.

I'm so sorry to hear thats the case. Is it painful? And do people stop and notice?? (sorry, couldn't resist!)

lawhec

Originally posted by DamoDMC
Nice one 'mugger!

If thats the Kildare one, Kippure should be A1 on Band III, no problem.

As you have clear TG4 and TV3, my bet is that you may not have a correct VHF aerial, or you are getting your signal from Three Rock on UHF, and with RTÉ 1 on ch29, you are getting a bit of co-channel interferance from Divis and its kill all signal of BBC 2 on ch27 and BBC 1 on ch31. You may have a Group A aerial when you need a wideband one.

Loads of senarios, lets hope we can narrow them down.

There could be quite a few. Although he says that there are "lines" through RTE1, it could mean many things as different lines do different things.

If all four services are from three rock mountain I'd doubt Divis would be killing the signal off as the channels are spaced out well enough and anyway the type of weather we have in the moment doesn't encourage this! If he is getting the service from 3Rock, it might be that he is using a group B aerial. This group covers channels 35-53, TV3 fits into this OK and Network 2 (33) and TG4 (55) are just two channels to each side of it they may not be too bad, but with RTE1 (29) quite well away from the edge of the group it may cause the lines being mentioned.

Still a lot to suss out.

watty

In theory RTE1 and NET2 are in fact 100% "changed over" to UHF. RTE wanted to turn off the VHF this summer.

Often though you need a roof top external UHF aerial. RTE have not planned for high enough UHF signal for loft or especially set-top aerials to work.

If All 4 chanels are in the same group a 21 element Yagi is best, but often shops will sell you the wrong group (A, B, C or D).

If you get TV3 from a different group then you need a 4 element Array ( Flat mesh plate with 4 little aerials on it). These are wideband. Again some shops sell inferior copies that look like the aerials are made out of coat hangers. The aerial rods should be very stout aluminium, not skinny galvanised wire.

In event that best TV3 is from a different direction to RTE1 / NET2 (some areas), you need TWO yagi aerials and a Y-combiner.

A booster is only any use really if the amp part is just inside loft or about 4' away from aerial. Then enough signal is left after the long downlead. With ttime an exteral aeral cable deteroiates. Satellite grade foiled wrapped cable is best. Old Band III cable or Cable TV cable (about pencil thickness with solid core -- good cable is much fatter and has open passages -- air core-- in the internal insulation) is useless for UHF.

We live just across the Shannon esturay from Woodcock hill relay. It is quite low power so we need a roof aerial. Due to trees we have a bit of ghosting on RTE1 so I may mounting the aerial only 6ft off ground at side of house to "see" the transmitter "under" the boughs of the big trees.

If you ring RTE techinical dept they will tell you what group and direction you need. Beats me why this is not on Teletext or Website.

What ever you do NEVER complain to technical dept about signal..

IrishBazza

Lads,

Thanks for the input. I would like to clarify the following points:

1. Correct I do live in the Kilcullen area in Co. Kildare

2. My TV Aerial is a digital element 18 (the big momma aerial) purchased from B&Q in Dublin. I believe covers both UHF/VHF.

I spent an hour in the antic yesterday moving the area in different directions. I even put the aerial on a higher pole, which is at maximum height in the antic. TV 3 & TG4 is now even crystal clear, but I am still having the same reception with waving lines in RTE1?

DamoDMC, you might be able to clarify whether my aerial type is suitable, and when the VHF signal is being replaced by UHF in Kilcullen and will I be able to receive RTE on my current aerial as part of the changeover?

watty

The RTE technical line is in RTE guide.
Ring and finds out what UHF channel, group and direction RTE1 is on. You may be still tuned into VHF on your TV, but there are UHF now for everywhere except for some areas which do have RTE on UHF but no TV3 at all.

Any aerial that does UHF and VHF is fairly poor for UHF.

You lose up to 3/4 of signal due to roof tiles or endwalls or close objects detuning the aerial in an attic. I Have seen an aerial sitting on a hedge work better than in an Attic.

Your VCR or other box with a video out may output near same channel as RTE. That puts lines on Picture.

Digibox you press Services | 4 0 1 Select to get into RF out tuning. Consult your manual for other equipment such as VCR, Analog Sat, PhotoCD player, DVD, Playstation modulator etc.

Cork

When you can get RTE1, Network 2 & Tg4 & you cannot even get a bad Tv3 - what is causing this.

I know people in Fermoy that this has happened to

Originally posted by IrishBazza
Lads,

Thanks for the input. I would like to clarify the following points:

1. Correct I do live in the Kilcullen area in Co. Kildare

2. My TV Aerial is a digital element 18 (the big momma aerial) purchased from B&Q in Dublin. I believe covers both UHF/VHF.

I spent an hour in the antic yesterday moving the area in different directions. I even put the aerial on a higher pole, which is at maximum height in the antic. TV 3 & TG4 is now even crystal clear, but I am still having the same reception with waving lines in RTE1?

DamoDMC, you might be able to clarify whether my aerial type is suitable, and when the VHF signal is being replaced by UHF in Kilcullen and will I be able to receive RTE on my current aerial as part of the changeover?:D

A vhf aerial is going to cost you at most €50 for something with 6 elements, including a lenght of co-ax.
Down here, with the whole of the wicklow mountains between us and Kippure,we get decent RTÉ one and N2 from Kippure on VHF with just the telescopic aerial on a portable.
No matter what anyone tells you and regardless of what it says on the box, no one aerial is going to do a satisfactory job forboth Uhf and Vhf,you will need the VHF aerial and it's not going to break the bank.

Second obvious thing to point out, is polarity.
Kippure is horizontal
mm

bkehoe

RTE1 and NET2 are only available in VHF from Mt Leinster still. No UHF.

Originally posted by watty
In theory RTE1 and NET2 are in fact 100% "changed over" to UHF. RTE wanted to turn off the VHF this summer.

Often though you need a roof top external UHF aerial. RTE have not planned for high enough UHF signal for loft or especially set-top aerials to work.

If All 4 chanels are in the same group a 21 element Yagi is best, but often shops will sell you the wrong group (A, B, C or D).

If you get TV3 from a different group then you need a 4 element Array ( Flat mesh plate with 4 little aerials on it). These are wideband. Again some shops sell inferior copies that look like the aerials are made out of coat hangers. The aerial rods should be very stout aluminium, not skinny galvanised wire.

In event that best TV3 is from a different direction to RTE1 / NET2 (some areas), you need TWO yagi aerials and a Y-combiner.

A booster is only any use really if the amp part is just inside loft or about 4' away from aerial. Then enough signal is left after the long downlead. With ttime an exteral aeral cable deteroiates. Satellite grade foiled wrapped cable is best. Old Band III cable or Cable TV cable (about pencil thickness with solid core -- good cable is much fatter and has open passages -- air core-- in the internal insulation) is useless for UHF.

We live just across the Shannon esturay from Woodcock hill relay. It is quite low power so we need a roof aerial. Due to trees we have a bit of ghosting on RTE1 so I may mounting the aerial only 6ft off ground at side of house to "see" the transmitter "under" the boughs of the big trees.

If you ring RTE techinical dept they will tell you what group and direction you need. Beats me why this is not on Teletext or Website.

What ever you do NEVER complain to technical dept about signal..

DMC

Welcome back IrishBazza,

Yeah, as watty and madman were saying, I think its a poor aerial. Combos dont work, IMHO. This could be a factor in where you bought it, B&Q, which could be just UK equipment brought over from their warehouses, and resold here. (Like what Curry and Argos do, like sell phones with UK to IRL adapters )

2 aerials, mate. Weapon of choice.

Also, good idea to ask a local TV dealer, who could understand the local geography a little bit better than we do.

lawhec

In theory RTE1 and NET2 are in fact 100% "changed over" to UHF. RTE wanted to turn off the VHF this summer.

Not that I know of. Truskmore is still running RTE1 and Network 2 on VHF only and AFAIK is still the case on Kippure, Mt.Leinster, Mullaghanish, Maghera & Monaghan. They also made an announcement on Aertel Net2 P530 that these transmissions would continue "for the forseeable future" and allocations for DTT could be affected by needlessly shifting to UHF. In most cases there was no need to convert relays to UHF (Letterkenny & Moville being exceptions)

If All 4 chanels are in the same group a 21 element Yagi is best, but often shops will sell you the wrong group (A, B, C or D).
If you get TV3 from a different group then you need a 4 element Array ( Flat mesh plate with 4 little aerials on it). These are wideband.

Yagi aerials can be got in groups A, B, C/D, E, K or wideband - this depends on the transmitter in question. They are grouped as follows...

A - 21 - 37
B - 35 - 53
C/D - 48 - 68
E - 35 - 68 (B & C/D combined)
K - 21 - 48
Wideband - 21 - 68

The four element array mention is often referred as a "fireguard" or "grid" aerial, which is actually four "dickeybow" diploes connected to each other. These aerials are often used in areas where ghosting occours where the offending object comes from behind the wanted signal.

In event that best TV3 is from a different direction to RTE1 / NET2 (some areas), you need TWO yagi aerials and a Y-combiner.

This quite often happens where the local relay is transmitting RTE1, Network 2 and TG4 only. Only Collins Barracks in Cork and Woodcock Hill in Limerick are the only relay stations which currently carry TV3. It may be possible that the direction of the best TV3 signal may also carry the three other channels on UHF also, in which case either realigning the aerial or buying a new one should be OK. Otherwise two aerials would be needed, one for RTE1/Net2, the other for TV3/TG4 (TG4 is UHF only), fed into a special grouped combiner so that the signals from both aerials are isolated from each other.

2. My TV Aerial is a digital element 18 (the big momma aerial) purchased from B&Q in Dublin. I believe covers both UHF/VHF.

This is unlikely as I know of no aerial that covers both VHF and UHF for domestic TV reception, particulary as it was bought in B&Q. UHF/VHF aerials are available but these are generally for serious DX'ers and for ham radio users. Most of these aerials are log periodic which can be tuned to work over a given frequency range. Yagi attempts at this usually end up in tears as they work best over a close group of frequencies.

TV 3 & TG4 is now even crystal clear, but I am still having the same reception with waving lines in RTE1?

These "waving lines" usually indicate either the incorrect aerial being used (UHF instead of VHF), co-channel interference or standing waves patterns. Are the lines fairly thick , either slow moving or stationary on the screen either vertically or horizontally) or are they very small and run diagonally across the screen?

You lose up to 3/4 of signal due to roof tiles or endwalls or close objects detuning the aerial in an attic

This can be quite true, depending if the tiles on the roof have metal in them and also any metal in the attic (plumbing etc.)

When you can get RTE1, Network 2 & Tg4 & you cannot even get a bad Tv3 - what is causing this.

As already mentioned the vast majority of relay don't carry TV3 so this is VERY possible. Even then some channels from the same transmitters don't always act the same. Up here Channel 4 on Brougher Mountain doesn't be as good as the other three channels, though this is only usually a problem in fringe signal areas.

Combos dont work, IMHO. This could be a factor in where you bought it, B&Q, which could be just UK equipment brought over from their warehouses, and resold here. (Like what Curry and Argos do, like sell phones with UK to IRL adapters)

If it is just a standard UHF aerial it should be fine for UHF channels in Ireland.

It sounds like a UHF aerial is being used for VHF reception. In a few cases you can get away with this but more often that not a seperate VHF Band III aerial will be required. A booster will not help as it will only help a weak signal, not a poor but reasonably strong signal - it will only make the problem even worse.

byte

I pick up my signals from Truskmore and RTE1 and N2 are Band III and will remain so. It would not be possible to convert to UHF at present due to the subtransmitters it's feeding off air. VHF signals travel better than UHF over long distances.

DMC

Just to clarify one more thing, IrishBazza... if you can..

Which senario on this page BBC Reception Advice best describes what is occuring on the RTÉ 1 picture?

IrishBazza

DamoDMC,

Just got down from the antic!

Cheers for the BBC link on TV Reception Advice. The RTE 1 interference are fast moving side vertical lines, not illustrated in your link. It maybe output problem with my VCR.

However today I have notice flashing spark dots on all four channels. Its like watching RTE and TV3 programmes under a 80s disco ball.

I will check with RTE technical department on UHF switch on in the Kilcullen area. Do I assume, when the UHF signal for RTE is available in my area, that the reception will improve. As previously stated my TV3 and TG4 is crystal clear on UHF. RTE 1 and 2 are being received on VHF only. I have tried UHF for RTE, but no joy.

Hi Irishbazza,
The eighties disco ball interference, you describe usually indicates moisture getting into your cables somewhere.
It is not a good sign:( as it usually can only be fixed by replacement depending on how bad and where it got in.

When you say the RTÉ one interference may be due to your vcr-just disconnect and hook direct so we will know for definite
mm

lawhec

Although it sounds like you're using the wrong aerial, standing waves seem to be the problem. This is a type of multipath reception where signals that are reflected from objects next to the aerial (and being in a loft could be the culprit) or where the signal is scattered and has to take a number of paths e.g. a forest, which is out of phase with the direct signal. In extreme cases this can cancel out a signal altogether, less extreme will make the signal look weak but in most cases will just cause patterning on the screen. In case you're wondering why this happens on RTE1 and not Network 2, standing waves does not tend to every channel from the same transmitter.

Also as mentioned try plugging the aerial direct into the TV and turn the VCR off. If the patterning goes away then it's likely with a problem with the video. I don't know of any European VCRs with a VHF modulator but it could be possible that circuitry in the VCR is causing dirty leakage or that the modulator is not a great one and is by putting out a VHF signal, with a UHF signal in the 3rd harmonic. Should the VCR be the cause see if you can change the modulator's frequency - it's usually default set at CH36 and at the very least can be changed a few channels either way and many good ones can tune over the whole UHF band.

If you are receiving a VHF signal from Kippure this is not going to be changing over to UHF only in the short term future. Excuse my ignorance but I'm not sure in what part of Kildare Kilcullen is and it may be possible that you could be receiving the Mt.Leinster transmitter. If this is the case then the VHF transmissions are vertically polarised - try rotating the aerial on it's axis by 90 degrees and see what happens. If there is an improvement then it will be Mt.Leinster which is your service area but that may well hammer your UHF reception. Two aerials (VHF & UHF) will be your only option and before you ask - the chances on Mt.Leinster simulcasting RTE1&2 on UHF are slim as it's "allocations" have been taken by Three Rock mountain!

IrishBazza

Madman and Northern Correspondent,

Just by chance I have inserted the Aerial directly through the Sky Digibox, and have relinked the VCR to the TV. Bingo, the lines have disappeared from RTE 1. As you mention, the interference must have been caused by the VCR on RTE 1.

I have also the added bonus of the SKY back-feed to my bedroom having clear RTE 1 & 2 and TV3.

Thanks for all for the help.

DMC

Take a bow madman, it certainly foxed me!

lawhec

Glad to see the problem sorted out. It's difficult to guess without being there and having some previous knowledge of the same problems.

For some odd reasons certain types of VCR's, DVD Players, Satellite receivers etc. are known to doing things like this. An early Pace Sky Dodgybox was nortirious for corrupting UHF TV even when the Aerial cable wasn't looped through the Sky Digibox.

sergeant121

Just about all possibilities - bar one - have been well covered in this thread.

I found out about this some years ago when I had the classic herring bone interference problem on my VCR's output. I moaned to a friend in the trade and he asked what channel my VCR was tuned to. I said, "36" and he replied, "That's your problem. BBC1 one around here is on 41 so it's 5 channels away and that's very close to the IF frequency used in VCRs. Change it to 37 and you'll cure the herring bone problem." He was right.

It may not be the problem IrishBazza has but it's certainly worth remembering when setting up VCR or Digibox RF output channels.

Rule of thumb - check all local UHF channels (even if you are not using them to receive yourself) and avoid using a channel 5 away from any other.