Who won the great debate?

mike65

Its just finished, I saw most of it and I reckon that Michael Noonan won it on points.

Mike.

gandalf

Without a doubt Micheal Noonan won it quite clearly. He was calm, collected and impressed me greatly.

Before this Election I would have never said that as I considered him a boffoon, but after actually listening to him over the last few days I think I have been extremely hasty and unfair in that opinion.

Ahern well at best was flustered at worst was on the verge of losing his temper.

I think Fine Gael will do better than the polls are predicting after that performance by Mr. Noonan.

Gandalf

(btw for clarity I am a Labour supporter)

sceptre

Agreed. On points. I suppose there was never going to be a knockout from either side.

Interesting to see FG change its tack on these occasions. I can remember the Charlie/Garrett TV debate in the late 80s where Fitzgerald went on about economic policy and GDP growth, while Haughey grinned, knowing that most people wouldn't have had a notion what he was saying.

Few observations though. When Bertie mentioned those letters (G D and P) in the same sentance, Noonan told him not to be too technical, saying that most people wouldn't understand it. This is true (well, it is). Perhaps a mistake for Noonan to say it though - people don't necessarily like this to be pointed out to them (wouldn't bother me, I have to say, but then I still consider my basic economic ideas to be superior to the current government's)

And I'd consider it a mistake for Bertie to say "silly point, I'm not going to address it" at one point (when talking about public spending). If it's a silly point, address it. Highlight it. Put it in the papers the next day. If you ignore it, people listening closely may think it's not a silly point (it wasn't btw)

Interesting on the whole. Won't influence all that many people but on the whole, entertaining if nothing else.

May post again on this, depending on what people have to say.

mike65

Yeah, I should have made it clear I meant many points!

Bertie Ahern is like his beloved Man Utd, fine when everythings going well, but awful at the back when put under pressure. His voice takes on a funny "snappy" tone when pressed.

Noonan was all calm and plainly on top of the technical stuff.

Sadly I don't think it'll make a blind bit of difference to FGs vote count though.

Mike.

anakin

I think Noonan won it easily.

I found it absolutely sickening when Bertie Ahern tried to claim that under his government the streets are safe.

Lemming

I must say, Bertie looked VERRRRY uneasy in there.

Noonan landed some good points on him. Particularly about the difference between the crime figures and the A&E figures and the lack of reports for the last two years.

Also got some good digs in about the mismanagement of the economy's finances

PhilipMarlowe

A dreadful embarrassment they way the thing was carried on/chaired.
Watching the two of them speaking over each other and at times all three together was too much for me...

meglome

I've never voted for FG and wasn't going to but Noonan really gave Bertie a right seeing to. Bertie was very uncomfortable and was most definitely on the back foot. Noonan has certainly done himself some serious good.

potlatch

Bertie came off better. Noonan simply interrupted too much and presented himself as an ignorant child. I think that they were both agreeing on the same points and on the direction of the country's economy. They were arguing over micro-points.

By interrupting Ahern so much, Noonan made himself look bad; by talking over Ahern, he made anything sensible he had to say indecipherable. This was a huge mistake as he was the one trying to convince us of the government's shortcomings. We know what Ahern did, we want to know what he didn't do, but it's no use if we can't hear him.

To be honest, I got extremely irritated by what was being said tonight. About two thirds of the debate was dominated by funding, money, investment etc. in relation to public services, and later, taxes. Of course, this is what politics inevitably involves. But it was the manner by which it was treated that got my goat. If politics is about using resources and legislation to make people's quality of life better, then the focus on money is obscuring this. The reason throwing tonnes of money at the health service etc. doesn't produce great results is because there's not enough examination put into the structures necessary to implement the changes but above all, there's not enough examination put into what the hell it's supposed to achieve. Noonan and Ahern weren't genuinely asking: what's our attitudes to our quality of life, what we want to see done to the health service, the environment, the economy, social welfare etc. What is our relation to politics? Until those questions are answered, simply throwing in money and pushing through slapdash legislation to generate numbers isn't going to do it. They just must think numbers are sexy.

I felt the real questions were overlooked, or even deliberately avoided, by both - they seemed to assume that numbers impress us. Wrong. Quality of life impresses us.

It's understandable that Irish politics until 1922 was focused on freedom. After 1922, it was preoccupied with money - this is totally understandable. Now, politics has to shift to a healthy integration between political economy and honest-to-goodness quality of life.

Edit: And can I just add that it's my clear opinion that the Green Party is the only party genuinely trying to address this problem of theory and practise.

kamobe

Noonan was very smug, irritated me a little. Was funny to see em bickering like kids....

FF and labour will get my votes (local candidates are Lenihan and Burton).

DMC

Noonan I feel edged it, but neither was able to lay the killer punch. I was expecting more from Noonan actually, because in these situations, well, they are not Bertie's best place to be. One on ones, Noonan was really expected to win. Brian Cowan would be a good contest against Noonan, I feel.

Noonan didnt finish Ahern with the corruption issue, which I feel was the biggest point, and Noonan's biggest mistake of the night. Also, Noonan on health, when Ahern was quoting figures left right and centre defending the government's last 5 years on spending... Noonan came out saying you've all the figures.... which was interesting, because of the way FG in the early days of the campaign couldn't adequately defend their spending figures and where they got them from.

mike65

Without wanting to divert this thread too far off-topic, I think if
one is blame anyone for issues not being addressed it should actually be RTE for caving in to FF and only allowing one debate, as you said yourself, Potlatch, it all came back to a narrow few points on the ecomomy and finances but that what happens with such little time, no real debate is possible. On the matter about throwing money at the problem does necessarily fix it Noonan
made that very point more than once.

Mike.

Lemming

Originally posted by potlatch
The reason throwing tonnes of money at the health service etc. doesn't produce great results is because there's not enough examination put into the structures necessary to implement the changes but above all, there's not enough examination put into what the hell it's supposed to achieve.[/b]

Noonan actually put that point to Bertie on several occasions, and Bertie kept responding with the same statistics over and over every time.

I felt the real questions were overlooked, or even deliberately avoided, by both - they seemed to assume that numbers impress us. Wrong. Quality of life impresses us.

Whilst you have a point there, again I recall Noonan asking Bertie to stop spouting statistics at one point, no?

I am not a FG supporter traditionally, but I must say that Noonan really did come off the better out of that.

mike65

Beat you!

Mike.

potlatch

Originally posted by Lemming


Noonan actually put that point to Bertie on several occasions, and Bertie kept responding with the same statistics over and over every time.

Whilst you have a point there, again I recall Noonan asking Bertie to stop spouting statistics at one point, no?

I am not a FG supporter traditionally, but I must say that Noonan really did come off the better out of that.

Sorry, Lemming, I was referring to both of them, really. I meant it as a general point . I should have clarified. I was more going on about my impressions of the debate, rather than who won.

mike65: sure, I was just giving my impressions of what I kind of saw as the debate within the debate. I totally agree, the debate was badly chaired and unprofessionally edited, giving FF the upper hand all the way. Had it been better conducted, had Miriam kept the two in tow, there might have been some concrete points made.

I still think Ahern came out on top. He was defending a strong position while Noonan was trying to chip away at what many people see as FF's significant achievements. From the beginning, Noonan was on the losing side.

While certainly winning the point on the issue of waiting lists, Noonan hammed it up by using personalised cases which came across as empty rhetoric. I saw this as Noonan's only major coup. The underlying truth about the health system is that it's already being looked into by the civil-service; all the parties may disagree on are minor, very minor issues on funding when the report is presented to whatever government is in power.

Clearly Ahern made ground on the transport issue (though Noonan recited the FG proposals when required - nothing special there) - no one could say Noonan made any sabotage on Bertie there. In response to the corruption question, Ahern appeared more than willing to talk about it and his soiled colleagues while Noonan visibly dodged acknowledging any questions regarding corrupt officials in his party.

As for debt, budget surplus and Northern Ireland: no great shakes there.

At the very least, Ahern lost no percentage points, at best he's gained some - unfortunately.

Lemming

Originally posted by mike65
Beat you!

Mike.

grrrrrr ... git!!!

m1ke

looked to me like noonan just about won it but i was pretty disappointed by it overall. It seemed to me that ahern did a fairly good job at highlighting his points in broad terms - but as soon as he was pressed on any issue or anything went a little deeper noonan would beat him or he'd just kick for touch. It was a pity because that sort of weakness should have been exploited.

hurler-on-ditch

First thing to say is 'you see what you expect to see' . Most posters will have seen the debate through prejudiced eyes - frankly don't believe the 'spin' from some posters that this has swayed them to Noonan. Did feel on points Noonan will be perceived as winner.

The vast majority of people in advance of tonight would have expected Noonan to win anyway - but are we electing a champion debater or a Taoiseach?? Bertie will be happy if even 20% of people thought he won.

Listened to Vincent Brown radio show - remembering that communication is 90% non-verbal, I was struck how many callers thought Noonan was abrasive/agressive in style - good tactics in a debate, but perhaps might not sit well with the compassionate persepctive he says he has and Bertie dosen't.

DMC

Good point hurler, opposition parties generally do better in election debates, as they can attack the record of the government, rather than having to defend it.

How many times did Michael Noonan say "in this debate 5 years ago, taoiseach...." Nobody would remember what Johnny Bruton said in the similar debate then!

You only remember what the ultimate winner at the ballot box has promised, if they have not delivered.

Aspro

Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee.

"Why is the health/housing/transport/quality of life situation as bad as ever?"
"Because you messed it up when you were in power"
"Yeah but you were in power before that"

It was a choreographed NewLabour/Tory non-event. How can you have a real debate on the core issues between two parties that are ideologically identical?

There has been a real Americanisation of this general election with personality taking precedence over substance sprinkled withe the usual empty slogans.

I'm backing Bertie/ Bertie's team/ A caring government/ Vision with purpose etc etc. spin spin spin

I'm also disgusted with the national broadcaster RTE giving precedence to two party leaders to debate - it should have been ALL party leaders - so much for our "democracy".

gandalf

Yep agree with you there Aspro it should have been a properly managed debate between all the party leaders where no one can talk down the other leader.

Also I believe that the issues are so serious that a Debate should have been allocated to each major topic for each week of the election. ie Week1 Health, Week 2 Corruption & Week 3 Crime. RTE copped out with last nights effort.

Gandalf.

Occidental

Personal Opinion

Ahern came across as evasive and embarrassed at some of the questions.
Noonan came across as an arrogant bully.

Fine Gael would have been much better served by someone who can ask an awkward question and then wait for an answer, rather than talking over the answer, as Noonan did. RTE need to find someone who can manage a debate.


Winners: Parties who weren’t part of this farce
Losers: Us, the great unwashed public, as usual.

koneko

I didn't watch too much of it, but from what I saw... did anyone else get the impression Bertie felt uncomfortable looking directly at Noonan? He kept looking at the host/presenter, who isn't meant to be involved too much.

lphchild

To be fair I thought Bertie did OK, Noonan was in a very easy position, taking pot shots at the government's track record yet not actually putting forward his alternative policies.I don't think he said anything actually substantially concrete on practical solutions to the issues raised.

He came across to me as a complete whinger, constantly talking over Bertie and when Bertie gave up trying to talk while Noonan was still waffling, Noonan looked like a smug git, as if the point of debate is to see who can talk the most over the other without making any salient points.

To be fair Bertie could do with going on the course that Sinn Fein and others have invested in, teaching PR/debating skills.

2p(and no allegiance)

lph

DMC

Originally posted by gandalf
Yep agree with you there Aspro it should have been a properly managed debate between all the party leaders where no one can talk down the other leader.

Also I believe that the issues are so serious that a Debate should have been allocated to each major topic for each week of the election. ie Week1 Health, Week 2 Corruption & Week 3 Crime. RTE copped out with last nights effort.

Gandalf.

I disagree. The debate was the two people who can become Taoiseach. For all the work Ruairi Quinn has been doing, he's not going to overtake Fine Gael (this time around anyway)

Ahern and Noonan are the only two people who can be Taoiseach at this moment in time. If the gap narrows sufficiently in this general election that, say there is 10-15 seats between Labour and Fine Gael, then fine, the Labour leader should be quite rightly in the debate next time, because there is a chance he can be Taoiseach.

But at present, rightly or wrongly, only the Fianna Fail or Fine Gael leader can contest the leadership of this country. And that's how I'd like to see the debate, amongst those who would be crowned king at the end of the day. Labour are not at that stage (yet.)

Also can you imagine the THREE of them talking over each other and cutting across? No-one in this nation could handle that!

koneko, he was only talking to the chair. Also, I felt Miriam could've done better with the topics she raised. No agriculture or farming issues, for instance.

spanner_head

Originally posted by koneko
I didn't watch too much of it, but from what I saw... did anyone else get the impression Bertie felt uncomfortable looking directly at Noonan? He kept looking at the host/presenter, who isn't meant to be involved too much.

Maybe bertie was trying to catch your womans attention so he could ask her out for dinner thats why he kept looking at her!!!

I watched a good bit of the debate but it could have been more organised.

Noonan gave it a good shot but never really put his partys policies accross which he should have done. I thought Noonan would have done crap in the debate but came out better than bertie.

bro1

Hi guys,

I've been living in Ireland for 3 years now and finaly I got interested in local politics. Just few notes:

1. Both Fianna Fail and Fine Gael propose the same policies.
2. Noonan main argument to Ahern was - you promised 100% percent you didn't achieve it and we are going to achieve what we promise.
3. As far as I can see, Ahern achieved more than 50% of what was promised 5 years ago, which is really very very good rate. (Who is fullish enough to trust promisses made by politicians anyway?)
4. I just did not like Noonan's acusitions... Stupid tactics... If you study marketing for just 1 day you should already know, that you should not criticize competitor, but you should present the best properties of your own product.

And as final note - I do not care who wins the debate or election as long as they are right wing parties and not the socialists(labor, worker, sin fein, green, etc.)

Though I wish Fianna Fail and Fine Gael were more liberal areas not concerning economy (abortion, pubs, etc.)

Cloud

spectre wrote:

Few observations though. When Bertie mentioned those letters (G D and P) in the same sentance, Noonan told him not to be too technical, saying that most people wouldn't understand it. This is true (well, it is). Perhaps a mistake for Noonan to say it though - people don't necessarily like this to be pointed out to them (wouldn't bother me, I have to say, but then I still consider my basic economic ideas to be superior to the current government's)

Very condescending I thought. Noonan definitely won the session in terms of debating skills, but I don't think that makes him the right person for the job. He just came across as a sneaky bully, interrupting with a new question anytime Bertie tried to answer his last question.

sceptre

Dammit cloud, it's sceptre - you're not doing a Boston on me are you:D Just kidding Cloud

I watched Questions and Answers last night (repeat)and Brendan Howlin was pushing the case that Labour should have been let in on the debate. Fair point (I thought) - though I would insist on still having a Noonan/Ahern only debate as well. Then as the discussion went on, the FF representative (can't remember the name) was prodding Howlin on the refusal to have a debate with Mary Harney. Howlin's response was that Harney only had five seats and thus it would be a waste of Labour's time (21 seats) to have a Quinn/Harney debate

Now, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If the debate was between the two possibilities for Taoiseach (and it was) that's one thing. Ruari Quinn will not be Taoiseach in the next government. Neither will Mary Harney. One of the two parties will, at best, be the junior partners in a coalition. So should Quinn be invited without Harney? Don't think so.

Victor

Originally posted by spectre
Then as the discussion went on, the FF representative (can't remember the name) was prodding Howlin on the refusal to have a debate with Mary Harney. Howlin's response was that Harney only had five seats and thus it would be a waste of Labour's time (21 seats) to have a Quinn/Harney debate

I think there is another Prime Time debate with Quinn & Harney tonight.

The various leaders of the smaller partys did have a number of debates with senior members of FF & FG.

GreenHell

Worst debate I watched in ages, dissappointed rte didn't huss nonaan while bertie was making a point, dissappointed bertie didn't simple ask nonaan do be quiet.

Didn't really consider it a debate, FG critised FF record, no real promises to the future, bicker bicker blah blah, change channel.