Electronic Voting

Ruu_Old

Interesting point raised on Pat Kenny...the anarchist fella in the studio audience..what bout those who go out and deliberately spoil their votes..

DapperGent

Yeah it's a bit difficult to scrawl "f*ck yis all" on a computer screen. Seriously though I think there should always be a option to say none of the above or something (I remember there was "re-open nominations" in college) it might even encourage the more apathetic if they could come and say I don't give a bollix yer all ****e officially.

sceptre

I think such an option should be available.

Now obviously there are some people that spoil their votes (and on the regular basis) and don't do it deliberately. I've heard tell of a few people that place an X next to all the FF candidates (none of them are related to me, my girlfriend or our friends btw)

Electronic voting will make it easier for these people so that they don't waste their vote any more.

There also has to be a way of people who are willing to vote to express their dissatisfaction with the candidates running. On the other hand, you could say that if you find that none of the candidates represent your views or are incapabable of representing your views, you should get off your ass and run yourself or at least start a niche party (the "we're not going to accept any contributions from telecom operators that mught influence our votes" party for example), but that's another issue entirely, at least until we get a Monster Loon running in every (or any) constituency here.

hallelujahjorda

I think if you were to assign a spoiled vote button to the current system, you'd be validating the spoiled vote and encourage a much greater number of them . . .

. .. this country is awash with people who want to whinge about everything from motor insurance through healthcare to political corruption . . . and rightly so , but if your not willing to get off your ass and use your vote to affect the make up of the dail, then you kind of give up the right to whinge about what they do when they get in power . . .

Let's not go around encouraging anarchic behaviour . . . im kinda enjoying democracy right now . . .

cornell babe

i dont really support the idea of electronic voting.
while canvassing in one of the three constituencies where electronic voting will become a reality next friday i met so many of the elderly who are not liking the idea of it at all and so might not even give it a try i think we really have to remember the elderly in this context. i know my mom who is not yet in her fifties can barely use a mobile phone.

i think you should be allowed to spoil your vote but its also a good point that people should try to change things themselves if they're not happy with what's on offer. but that might not always be viable.

at the end of the day in a time of great voter apathy i dont think this is the way to go!!!
maybe in a country where the majority of people really appreciate their democratic rights!!!

also what about all the excitement of the tally men and the anticipation and having extra work for the people at rte???!!!
:cool:

sceptre

The electronic voting system is a lot simpler than people appear to think. Far easier to use than a mobile phone.

To hell with the tally men. Electronic voting can eliminate the possibility of counter error resulting in no nasty recounts, recriminations, doubts etc.

And before you mentino the word "Florida", that state is using forty-year old voting technology. Those flawed punchable voting cards that they have there will not be appearing here - obviusly resulting in Bryan Dobson not having to explain to us all what a "chad" is again:cool:

Saruman

we wont be able to pick Dustin any more.. i doubt he will be an option... hmmm wonder will there be a special "Bertie Button"?

EvilGeorge

Well lets consider - they say its most of the older generation that do the voting - now out of that generation how many of them are techno phobes ? Would the idea of electronic voting cause them not to ?

Since this is still a democracy, if we wish to spoil votes it is our right to do so , therefore they cannot take the option from us , it may disencourge more ppl from turning up.

JacquesPompidou

dollar122
expectstocks lower
Watch out!


Koizumi's crew are trying to weaknen the Yen to increase exports, but the Falling Yen is hurting Japan badly. An Economy is like a fine tuned instrument, like a guitarist you can tune your instrument to suit it's surroundings, but if you over-tune the delicate fine strings may snap!! The domestic plunge is being fueled by a drop on European, American exchanges and the rising value of the yen, which hurt export-oriented companies, such as automakers and electronics manufacturers, the manufacturing industry is getting hurt and the Japanese are spending less.




The ridiculous Economic tarrifs are hurting JApan. Employment is a key issue, Koizumi needs to re-structure JApan's work force. The service industry is suffering. 60% of the Japanese workforce are in the service industry, Hotel-staff, Taxi-drivers, Supermarket staff,.. this un-skilled work force is seeing a decline in recent times, the Japanese government must create real jobs in dependable sectors. Tax cuts may be a good idea, but also a bad one. You may see the Japanese borrowing for non-Capital items , or borrowing money for housing to put it back in the Nippon bank this will create more bad loans and give additional fuel to further this economic spiral. Falling share prices spelt more bad news for banks and investors trying to shed their holdings. The badly managed banks are in trouble yet again. In the last few days un-accounted losses on cross sector holdings by key banks have swelling to 5 trillion yen.

I think many overseas investors are now questioning how valid Koizumis statements are and doubting the man's leadership. Recent corruptions with key lawmakers, Nuclear reactor cover-ups, SnowBrand scandals are hurting the credibility of the Jpaanese system. Jittery investors are starting to flee pushing down Tokyo share prices to levels not seen since the early dark crash of the 1980s. People are now very uncertain over Japan's leadership in this new World. The Nikkei index hitting 19-year lows. TOPIX shares was also being battered. Hitting terrible levels not seen since 1984. Foreign investors may have previously supported this market but investors are now very uncertain with the LDP planning to use money from people's postal savings and pension schemes. The LDP want to inject money from people's savings and pension funds to give the Japanese stocks a much stronger appearance. Unfortunately even this desperate resort is not working. Koizumi's desperate administrative reforms are scaring off foreign investors, who up to now supported the Japanese market. The massive declines are shedding trillions of Japanese Yen.


Koizumi needs to implement new inventive ideas, new policies and craete new jobs. If not less money will circulate and the government will get less income tax. The reforms simply will not happen. Also with Koizumi's failure to get rid of corporate scandals, and ditch all corrupt lawmakers it seems that change is a long way off. I wonder how the public support ratings for Koizumi fare?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Lei Xiejiang

Elections are rigged Bush got in!!

Kim Tae-Woo

TwoShedsJackson

:rolleyes:

La_Gordy

Originally posted by Lei Xiejiang
Elections are rigged Bush got in!!

that wasn't rigging, that was dumb as a post americans

Elmo

There should be a spoil button on the computer if you want to spoil your vote.

Also you should get a print out of how you voted and should be able to vote the normal way as well just in case the computer fail.

La_Gordy

Originally posted by Elmo
There should be a spoil button on the computer if you want to spoil your vote.

Also you should get a print out of how you voted and should be able to vote the normal way as well just in case the computer fail.

so maybe it would be better if electronic voting was an option instead of madatory.

GerK

Originally posted by Nisara


that wasn't rigging, that was dumb as a post americans

Actually there is quite a bit of evidence of vote rigging in that election. Not least of which were the lists of "convicted felons" which was used to improperly disqualify voters with the same name or indeed similar names to those on the list. Strangely these lists featured mainly Hispanic sounding names, one of Dubya's least supportive groups in the area. Again equally surprising was the source of the list .. the great state of Texas.

Victor

Zerflow urges action on e-voting worries
By Paul Anderson
From: Ireland.com
Monday, 9th December, 2002

The company responsible for a report questioning the integrity of electronic voting has urged the Government to act on its recommendations in order to maintain public confidence in the system.

The Zerflow Electronic Voting Report, commissioned by the Department of the Environment and Local Government, pointed to a number of flaws in the current system that could lead to votes being tampered with.

The report showed that keys for the voting machines could be duplicated at shopping centre key cutters and fake ballots can be taped to the front panel of the voting machine.

The Department of the Environment, who intend rolling the system out to all constituencies for the 2004 local and European elections, have rejected the criticism.

A spokesman said similar systems were used in Germany and Holland and that only a deliberate attempt by polling staff could lead to vote tampering.

But Zerflow Business Development Manager, Mr Tony Geraghty, today issued a statement urging the Department to act on the report's recommendations.

"The importance of integrity in this system cannot be underestimated so as not to undermine voter confidence. It is important that the Department of the Environment implement the recommendations as outlined in the Zerflow report, in order to restore full credibility to the electronic voting process," he said.

His company has recommended that presiding officers at polling stations should require a smart card and a personal identity number to turn on machines.

Zerflow is a Dublin-based company specialising in technological security. Details of its confidential report were revealed by RTÉ yesterday after a Freedom of Information request.

MrPudding

I heard the guy from Zerflow on the radio on Monday. He went through all the security risks that they had found. All the risk he mentioned had to do with physical access to the machine itself. For example, the back panel was plastic they recommend it should be metal. Another was that the key used to operate the device could easily be order if you knew the number.

Another risk they came accross was procedural. In this case the backup memory cartridge is left in the machine after the primary one is remove and taken to the counting centre. The backup cartridge could be erased my polling centre staff. Zerflow recommended that the backup cartridge be treated the same as the primary, ie remove from the polling station under guard. He did note that it was difficult to remove the backup cart, but I would imagine that this could be fixed.

I don't know what Zerflows remit was. Were they just supposed to report on the physical security of the machines? My concern is that this is now used to poo poo elecronic voting which I personally would prefer to the current paper ballot.

rien_du_tout

As someone who is about to go in to get their vote( I'll go any day now!!) I like the electronic system. I dont think there should be a spoiled vote choice as this increases the chances of some1 spoiling by mistake. There should be some option available to them that they have to go out of their way to get and whatever. I dont thinked spoiled votes should be encouraged.

<sarcasm alert>Should we put a "return to anarchy" option or maybe let people write something on their electronic spoiled votes. I would agree though that there should be an outlet for those who want to spoil their votes. </end>

<sarcasm alert>Maybe their own "special" ballot which can be counted and if in the majority sure we can all forget about the institutions</end>

I like the idea of a printout, used incase of suspicious circumstances. But I would say there shouldnt be a paper or electronic option as data tampering is a fear of mine while physical ballots are harder to tamper with.

seán

bonkey

Originally posted by rien_du_tout
I dont think there should be a spoiled vote choice as this increases the chances of some1 spoiling by mistake.

Flawed logic. If the system is too complex to be easily used by those it is intended for, then it should not be there. This applies whether or not it has a spoiled vote option. If it is simple enough to be used easily, then your argument doesnt hold.

Also, one can apply the exact same criticism to the existing process - it allows people to accidentally spoil their vote. In fact, it is probably much easier to spoil your vote on the current system than on any well-designed computer system which can warn you and even ask for confirmation should you wish.

I dont thinked spoiled votes should be encouraged.

I agree - as long as the system has a formal option available for me to show that I am dissatisfied with the options presented to me. A "none of the above" would do nicely. Of course, thats just a spoiled vote under a different name, but the term "spoiled" carries a deliberately negative connotation which I think we would do well to not get distracted by.

I like the idea of a printout, used incase of suspicious circumstances.

Any suspicious circumstances capable of subverting an electronic application such as a voting booth will certainly be capable of subverting the printout mechanism as well.

But I would say there shouldnt be a paper or electronic option as data tampering is a fear of mine while physical ballots are harder to tamper with.

No, they are not. Physical ballots are actually far easier to tamper with. If you'd care to give an example of why you believe otherwise, Id be more than willing to discuss it with you.

Just as a comparison....would you believe that paper-based Visa transactions are more or less secure than electronic ones, and why?

jc

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
I agree - as long as the system has a formal option available for me to show that I am dissatisfied with the options presented to me. A "none of the above" would do nicely. Of course, thats just a spoiled vote under a different name

Not necessarily. In UCD, there is a "Reopen Nominations" option (known as "Ron"). If Ron beats the relevant candidate, then nominations are reopened (not sure if candidate is then barred). not sure what the implications are in non-"first past the post" elections are.

Originally posted by bonkey
Any suspicious circumstances capable of subverting an electronic application such as a voting booth will certainly be capable of subverting the printout mechanism as well.

The problem is there is no record whatsoever (other than the elctronic record). A printout would give at least some record. As you have pointed out in the past (with regard to e-mail voting against e-mail banking), some record is better than no record.

Originally posted by bonkey
No, they are not. Physical ballots are actually far easier to tamper with.

Perhaps, but at least you have the evidence of that ballot tampering. Wholesale ballot stuffing is difficult to track with an electronic system.

Originally posted by bonkey
Just as a comparison....would you believe that paper-based Visa transactions are more or less secure than electronic ones, and why?

Then why do I need to sign the Visa slip everytime I buy something in a shop?

Sparks

From yesterday's Dail priority questions:

Electronic Voting.
75. Mr. Allen asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government the position regarding the introduction of electronic voting; and the steps he has taken to ensure the security of the system given that concern was raised by consultants regarding the security of the system used in the 2002 general election. [16800/03]
Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Mr. Gallagher): It is planned to use electronic voting and vote counting on a countrywide basis at the European and local elections in June 2004. The security assessment report on threats to the external physical features of the voting machine, referred to in the question, was commissioned by my Department in March 2002 before the system was used in three constituencies at the general election of 2002. The issues in that report were considered by the Department and measures were taken, where necessary, to deal with the issues raised. The authors of the security assessment report have recently expressed satisfaction that the actions and measures implemented by my Department in the use of the system meets any concerns expressed in their report.

Mr. Allen: I wish the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government a speedy recovery - I understand he is indisposed.
Does the Minister of State agree that placing an order costing €35 million for a new system of electronic voting, without discussing the system being proposed with any of the other parties in this House, was a form of dictatorship and arrogance? Can he guarantee to the House that the security codes proposed for this system are under the control of the Government rather than that of a third party? Why did his Department not submit to an Oireachtas committee the details of this system before an order was placed? Will he now agree to make all details regarding the electronic voting system available so that it can be examined and assessed by the other political parties in this House?
I am concerned that the security code for the system is not available and is under the control only of the company supplying the system. A party that would fiddle around with the electoral system without consulting other parties is going down the slippery slope of dictatorship.

Mr. Gallagher: I am sure the Deputy would accept that this is not a question of dictatorship or arrogance. It is important we have a system in place that is foolproof. This matter has not been discussed with my parliamentary party but it has been discussed with the experts and within the Department. When further progress has been made, there will be an opportunity later in the year - I offer that today - possibly in the autumn, for a full briefing with all the parties, the parliamentary parties and officials within them.
Lest the wrong impression is given, this report, which received much publicity some time ago, related to the physical aspect of the machine in the polling station. The machine had already been tested by international testing institutes, one in Holland, the TWO, and the software was tested in Germany by PTB. Zerflow was asked only to examine the security in the polling station, and that was examined. We merely wanted to get an objective view about where the machine should be placed in the station to ensure that it would be in view at all times of the returning officer and the polling clerk, that it would never be out of their view. Instructions were sent to the presiding officer and the polling clerk regarding where it should be placed in his or her view during the poll and that only a voter is allowed to go to the voting machine except in cases when a person is permitted to accompany a voter.
We have asked for advice on the codes and we are satisfied that the architectural and code review will be done by a private third party of the software for the count and election set up. That is currently in progress. I would be delighted to keep the other parties informed, particularly Deputies Allen and Gilmore and any other Member who wishes to be kept up date. In the autumn there will be a full briefing. When such a briefing was available prior to the general election not too many were interested in it. That is probably understandable. I am talking about the masses of the Members. Some Members were interested, but this system was installed in only a few constituencies at that time. I understand why not too many would have been interested because the system did not pertain in many constituencies. However, in the last referendum the system was in place in seven constituencies and it worked extremely well. Zerflow indicated only recently at a meeting in the Department that any concerns expressed in its report had been met by action taken or
procedures employed in the polling stations.

An Ceann Comhairle: The time allocated for this question is concluded.

Am I the only one starting to get worried about this system? (I don't mean the e-voting system per se, more the manner in which FF are running constitutionally or ethically questionable legislation or actions through the Dail).

PHB

Can noone see the possibily of "Voting Parties!"

Lets get drunk and then vote, WOOOHOO

The amount of effort required to actually go to the polling station is miniscule, and if people don't want to do that, well do you really want people to effectivly vpte with no idea whatsoever who they are voting for.
The big parties have a big enough advantage as it is, but if internet voting was brought in, so many more people would vote based upon the idea of I saw 72 Bertie signs so lets vote for him.

I do however think that electronic voting would be cool, but just in the actual station.

Imposter

I think electronic voting is a good idea. Obvoiusly it should be user-friendly so as to minimise problems with it.

An idea for verifying that it is working would be to print out your selection and once you have verified it is correct place this 'receipt' in a ballot box. Then manual checking of X% of ballot boxes to show they are the same as the electronic results would soon prove if it was legit or not.

antoinolachtnai

I wrote this short article about alternative ways of streamlining the voting system.

http://www.eire.com//blogarchives/000045.html

Don't be afraid to say what you think!

a.

JustHalf

A friend of mine did her fourth year project on this very topic. She was featured in the national press for her work.

She maintains a website here:
http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~afrodite/E-Voting/

I suggest you all read it. E-voting carries with it a possible significant threat to our democracy.

The current e-voting system should not be used.