Electronic voting - risky and undemocratic

Aspro

Electronic voting is to be tested in three constituencies in the upcoming general election:

http://breaking.tcm.ie/story.asp?j=39608856&p=396x97z8&n=39609734

I think that it is very dangerous and underhanded to propose using a system that has not been tested, in a general election of all times. Despite the fact that two out of three constituencies that are to be used as guinea pigs are key constituencies for my party, I object to this on principle of having an open and democratic election, i.e. I do not trust this government.

The main objections are set out on this site:

http://election.polarbears.com/art0022.htm

Victor

http://breaking.tcm.ie/story.asp?j=39608856&p=396x97z8&n=39609734

‘‘They go to the polling clerk in the normal way, get a permit which authorises them to use the voting machine, put the candidates in order of preference by pressing the button beside the candidate’s names and finalise their vote by pressing the ‘cast vote’ button.

What if there is 'lots' of candidates? Will the machine have enough buttons? I think it would be better if you got an printed slip that was your actual ballot paper.

beardedchicken

also very undemocratic is the inability with this system to spoil a vote, as this is a legitimate way to air your grievances, and to make your voice heard.

Hobbes

press all the buttons at once. Would be intresting to see who would get preference in that? Maybe they will have a "Spoil my vote" button.

Hi! How are you?

I hope you like the vote that I sendo you

Sand

also very undemocratic is the inability with this system to spoil a vote, as this is a legitimate way to air your grievances, and to make your voice heard.

Ive never quite understood that. Someone goes to the trouble of registering, goes down to the polling station, gets into the booth and then spoils the vote. The spolit vote is then counted later on as being spolit and ignored. Legimate way it may be but i dont know if it makes your voice heard. You can achieve the same lack of representation by just not voting and thus save yourself time and effort into the bargain. Not being argumentitive, I just dont see why a person who finds none of the candidates appealing will bother voting for nobody at all - literally.

Victor

Originally posted by Sand
Ive never quite understood that. Someone goes to the trouble of registering, goes down to the polling station, gets into the booth and then spoils the vote. The spolit vote is then counted later on as being spolit and ignored. Legimate way it may be but i dont know if it makes your voice heard. You can achieve the same lack of representation by just not voting and thus save yourself time and effort into the bargain.

I see your point, how about a "none of the above" option, more constructive than "Atari Jaguar".

Manach

I must confess I'm not too trusting either of the government and the lack of transparency inherent in e-votes.
That plus I like to see politicans faces during a long drawn out count, petty I know

Hobbes

Spoiling a vote puts a better message across then not showing up.

Not showing tends to be lumped under "Apathy". Where as a large percentage of the votes for "Dustin the Turkey" tend to show the goverment how serious you take thier policy.

Victor

Originally posted by Manach
That plus I like to see politicans faces during a long drawn out count, petty I know

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Victor

I see your point, how about a "none of the above" option, more constructive than "Atari Jaguar".

I remember a movie where there was an election and 1 of the canditates was "None of the Above" and won

Bateman

Anyone know anything about voting entitlements to Irish people abroad?

Saruman

On a slightly different note.. what do you think about internet voting? Personally i think it would be a very good idea... one of the reasons turnout is so lo is people cant be arsed go to a polling station to vote.. i know im too lazy sometimes! But if i could log on in work on the voting day, insert a government assigned pin number cast my vote and then change the webpage back to the boards i would be happy!

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Bateman
Anyone know anything about voting entitlements to Irish people abroad?

Irish people aboard cannont vote unless they are with the army or Gardai serving aboard also diplomatic missions.

Bateman

Yeah, more importantly, internet voting would be beneficial to Irish people abroad as well. i wouldn't introduce it as a paen to lazy people.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Bateman
Anyone know anything about voting entitlements to Irish people abroad?

If they dont live here, why should they be allowed to vote?

Victor

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
If they dont live here, why should they be allowed to vote?

Well more accurately, if they don't pay tax here, why should they be allowed to vote (to take account people on holidays, work or study abroad). So only allow those with current passports and who have paid tax in the last three years vote (note there are other requirements).

bonkey

Originally posted by Victor
So only allow those with current passports and who have paid tax in the last three years vote (note there are other requirements).

Err - what exactly do you mean by "paid tax" ?

If I have an Irish bank account, I'm paying Irish tax in the form of DIRT. If I visit the country for a weekend, I'm paying Irish tax by way of VAT.

If you mean PAYE/PRSI - there are people who dont pay these. Like the retired, or unemployed (I think), although I do know that the dole is liable for PAYE. Students definitely dont pay PAYE.

So - surely paying tax has nothing to do with it? Also - if it did - would you allow the foreigner who is working on a visa in Ireland for 2 or 3 years to have a vote? If not, why not - he/she is resident and paying tax.

Its a tough call.

As to the idea of Internet voting. I know that in our "real" voting, we have huge turnouts from some cemetaries, but have you any idea as to how insecure and untenable Internet voting would be.

jc

Saruman

Dont know Bonkey but online banking is secure enough for the most part so no reason why voting would be any different. Im sure the technology is there to do it. I doubt its any less secure than a polling station though.. i have never been asked for ID at the polling station.. i give my name, they give me a card.. i fill out card and pop it in a box!! I mean once i even saw my name on the sheet of names.. pointed to it and said thats men there.. "here is your card sir"....

pugwall

As regards to spoiling a vote:
Once you regester with the poll clerk and obtain your 'slip', dont actually vote.
I wonder if that counts.......hmmmmm

Victor

Originally posted by Saruman
Dont know Bonkey but online banking is secure enough for the most part so no reason why voting would be any different.

Existing voting procedures aside, few people are going to hack your bank account for a few hundreed pounds, they might for a few thousand votes.

Xterminator

Electronic voting - risky and undemocratic

??

Actually it will allow those who cannot currently vote like the disabled/students away from home, people on holiday etc. to exercise there right to vote, where currently they cannot.

Surely this is more democratic? Allow all the people to vote!

As for its being risky, every form of voting is risky. Someone could impersonate you if they have a valid looking birth cert orr credit card etc, and take your vote.
We have enough safeguards for electronic banking, so i have to say that implmented properly this is not a valid objection.

And you say you dont trust the government to set it up, thats just paraniod.
They have too much to lose if they cheated, and if they did it would eventually come out, even if it was a governtment or two later. and then they'd go to jail.

Now contrary to popular opinion, most policitcians are decent people, and dont enjoy a stint in jail.

As for the right to spoil your vote, It is simply a the no's of uneducated, semi illeterate people who couldn't fill out a form properly that 'spoil' votes, and rightly so, this is not seen as having your say.
You might note the correlation between confusing ballot papers and spoiled vote %'s in recent ballots to back up my comment.

X

Victor

I am proposing a liberalisation, not restriction.

Originally posted by bonkey
Err - what exactly do you mean by "paid tax" ?

1. Having completed a Form 11/12 from the Revenue Commissioners www.revenue.ie and paid the appropriate taxes. I mean resident for tax purposes as interpreted by the RC (includes the first three years you are away).

Originally posted by bonkey
If I have an Irish bank account, I'm paying Irish tax in the form of DIRT.

2. But as a non-resident, aren't you allowed to get that tax back? I am not necessarily advocating this, someone could have an account with €1 in it. I would work on the basis of point 1

Originally posted by bonkey
If I visit the country for a weekend, I'm paying Irish tax by way of VAT.

3. Nigh impossible to track and no I am not advocating this. Otherwise you would have a profound phenomenon of voting tourists.

Originally posted by bonkey
If you mean PAYE/PRSI - there are people who dont pay these. Like the retired, or unemployed (I think), although I do know that the dole is liable for PAYE. Students definitely dont pay PAYE.

4. The retired do pay tax as do the short-term unemployed and students (eh, how many students survive on grants and loans?), where their incomes are in excess of their tax credits.

Originally posted by bonkey
So - surely paying tax has nothing to do with it?

5. Can I mention the Boston Tea Party of the Gold Revolt in Australia?

Originally posted by bonkey
Also - if it did - would you allow the foreigner who is working on a visa in Ireland for 2 or 3 years to have a vote?

6. This is why I said there are other requirements, as laid out in existing legislation. As it stands (assuming age (18) and registration), all residents can vote in Local Elections. All EU citizens who are resident can vote in European parliament elections. All Irish and British citizens who are resident can vote in general elections. Only Irish who are citizens and resident are allowed vote in national referenda.

Separately all residents and ratepayers (including firms) can vote in certain local referenda (e.g. renaming towns or streets).

---

How should non-residents vote (at embassies, postal, internet)?

bonkey

Originally posted by Saruman
Dont know Bonkey but online banking is secure enough for the most part so no reason why voting would be any different.

Unfortinately completely different ballgames.

If someone hacks your bank account online (or uses your CC for fraudulent purposes) there is an electronic trail - there has to be - its the nature of dual-transactions.

If you can show, to any degree of reasonable surity, that you did not make those transfers/purchases, the bank will do their utmost to recover from it, and in most cases, the bank assume the loss.

This all revolves around one simple concept. Financial transactions are traceable.

On the other hand, with voting, part of the requirement is that your vote is genuinely anonymous. Sure, you may have to identify yourself "at the door", but once inside, your actions cannot be legally traced - it would be a violation of your privacy.

Given this, voter fraud, is (by necessity) untraceable. I may claim that someone used my vote, but I cant say what they voted for, nor can it be traced, so there is no way of undoing the harm. On the opposite end of the scale, a hacker could potentially spoil enough votes to force a revote....and could do this indefinitely.

In short, there is no way of proving that someone online is who they claim to be (and that their software hasnt been tampered with), but at least in financial transactions we have the secondary advantage of traceability of transactions. This does not and cannot exist in voting.

Think of whats commonly called a Man In The Middle Attack. Used in a financial situation, I can grab account numbers, passcodes, modify transactions, etc. but at the end of the day, the customer will see that the bill he knows he paid hasnt been, and the money has gone to some account in the Maldives instead.

Use the same approach with voting. You think you've voted for candidate A. The system appears to report back to you that you've voted for candidate A. I (as the MITM) have changed your vote to candidate B. Lack of traceability means that this can never be discovered.

Getting the idea?

jc

Bateman

****s sake lads am only studying abroad for one year, just goes to show what some people would do, turn me away from Dublin airport in the middle of the World Cup. Bastards!
But there is no way for Irish people abroad (not implying happily married/settled/tax-dodging types...
But if you are 18, have never worked (on the books), have no bank account, and no passport, you should not be able to vote? Please.:rolleyes:

billy the squid

electronic voting would be grand until some script kiddie brought the whole thing down on its arse.

oh and the movie where people were asked to vote for "none of the above" me thinks was "Brewsters millions"

dont think i would bother voting if i were presented with a machine to do it

what about voting by txt message

believe it or believe it not the governemt of the UK are giving it consideration

Xian

Originally posted by bonkey

In short, there is no way of proving that someone online is who they claim to be (and that their software hasnt been tampered with)
jc

If memory serves me correctly, they investigated internet voting in the States after the Florida election fiasco and discounted it for this same reason.

Originally posted by Hobbes
Spoiling a vote puts a better message across then not showing up.
Not showing tends to be lumped under "Apathy". Where as a large percentage of the votes for "Dustin the Turkey" tend to show the goverment how serious you take thier policy.

I don't think politicians pay any heed to the number of spoiled votes at all.
You would be better off doing a bit of homework as to who has the best chance of toppling a sitting T.D and voting for them.
Now that does p**s them off.
Alternatively vote for the protest candidate if there is one.
But don't waste the vote-Politicians secretly like that as it lets them off the hook.
mm