From a legal stand-point: What can i do to stop shop lifters

azezil

Occasionally we get "members of the travelling community" who come in a steal some bar's, minerals etc. What exactly can i do to stop them?

Just now it happened again, it was obvious they had no intention of paying but i hesitated because i was unsure of what i could do to stop them!

Could i have grabbed them by the scruff of the neck n forcibly taken back the items and kicked them out?

Where do you draw the line, when does it become physical abuse?

beardedchicken

legally, i'm not entirely sure where you stand, but i think common sense says in order to cover your own ass, it's best not to lay a finger on them, as they're just as likely to report you for physical abuse, and you wont have a leg to stand on. if you have security where you work, it's really best to pass the buck on to them- they are the experts at dealing with that sort of situation.

as far as i know, barring them straight off is illegal, but if you identify the main trouble makers, and keep a log of who, when and what they took/knocked over/destroyed/ add as appropriate, you'll soon build up a profile of who the main culprits are, and if you report that to the police, you'll have actual hard cases, rather than the usual.. "well, they're in all the time, but i have no concrete examples!"

as i said, i have no idea about the exact legal intricacies of your situation are, but i'm sure someone else on here will know- i'm just speaking from past experience of this!

(edit) i just remembered, i do know that legally, you have to wait for them to actually show no intention of paying for goods- i.e., they actually have to walk out the door before you can apprehend them, otherwise you can get done for...umm..something, i dunno!(/edit)

other than that, keep vigilant, and dont let it get you down, really its not worth getting upset or angry about. a few chocolate bars here and there are your bosses' concern, not yours!

chernobyl

Dont have your $hit within easy "5 finger discount" grasp.

If you switched the coffee machine with the drinks etc or just put the confectionary food behind the counter?

I dunno azezil, im always temtped to steal some sweeties when im in there so maybe you need to change the mood of "Celtel".

Victor

How about security cameras?

chernobyl

Does CCTV come with "bouncer" features these days Victor?

Victor

Originally posted by chernobyl
Does CCTV come with "bouncer" features these days Victor?

No, but they come with video displays that let you see things from multiple angles (depnding on nr. of cameras) and record people taking stuff, which you can keep as evidence.

daftbegger

After all..YOU are the innocent party!!
I used to do the old C.I.A earpiece plainclothes geezer bit, and trust me!! If you catch them doing it and give em a few digs, the guards will already know them and will let you away with it.
Just say that they started wrecking the place. (Turn off the cams before you smack them)

Xterminator

Aezil,

I managed fast food resturants for 9 years. The single best way i found is below.

Here is the key.
Post a sign minumin charge to sit in €5.00 per person. Put it some where
Now youre not breaking any law if you enforce it, as it is not singling out any ethnic group.

Now just enforce it selectively.

Example 3 scumbagswalk in, and come to the till.
They buy a couple of teas.
Ask for 15 euros.
They say goan f off!
They dont come back.
Problem solved.

Now in case anyone thinks this is racist, etc i would just like to point out, nobody walks around with 'traveller' tatooed on there head etc. Scumbag is what scumbag does.
I dont care what your backround is. If you dont cause any problem i serve you. if you are loud /rude /dishonest /smelly/ or just plain bad for business then i have a problem.

X

Victor

Xterminator, you are coming very close to the line there, usually with these things, it is up the the party in control (employer, proprietor) to justify their actions once there is a prima facie case of discrimination.

Xterminator

Hence the openly posted sign.
'Minumin charge 5 euro per person.'

TBH you are not refusing to serve anyone, you are making it very dear. This is what some hotels and resturants do, to ensure a select clientel. They charge high prices.

Now ocasionally you may forget to enforce the rule, (for nice customers) but as long as you have the sign displayed, and you dont refuse service your legally covered.

Now if the customer then abuses you or uses bad language, then you may refuse to serve them.

I know its kinda skating a fine line, but it has never once backfired in years of use in a chain of resturants.

X

Lemming

Answering the title of this thread:

as far as I'm aware, they can't be legally charged with shop-lifting until they attempt to walk out the door (ie. have one foot out,etc).

Store-detectives have it very hard from thawt respect. They've gotta follow someone around the store, and give them a chance to loose their nerve and put the stuff back , etc, etc.

Mills

What if someone has taken something from the shelf and hidden it in their bag, do you still have to wait for them to try and walk out with it?

TwoShedsJackson

Yes you do - they may have just put it in there for convenience and are going to bring it to the till and pay for it before they leave - you don't know, and accusing them of shoplifting before they actually try to leave will result in a courtcase the shop would almost certainly lose.

Victor

Originally posted by Castor Troy
Yes you do - they may have just put it in there for convenience and are going to bring it to the till and pay for it before they leave - you don't know, and accusing them of shoplifting before they actually try to leave will result in a courtcase the shop would almost certainly lose.

What you can do, and there is a precedent is that you can discretely ask the person "has that been paid for", there was a court case where the judge took that line.

Saruman

The best way i can think of is to have security cameras.. then when you see them steal something bar their way and dont let them leave. They will probably try to push past you in view of the camera and so they assaulted YOU, you defend yourself and all is well... of course if they pull a knife on you your in trouble!

Clintons Cat

you could try asking them if they intend to pay for the items they have put in their pocket/up their coat.
like chernobyl said put the stuff out of reach/behind a glass display or in desperation rent a vending machine.

Xterminator

So Azezil, what you going to do?

Any decisions made?

Has it happened since?

X

azezil

Originally posted by Xterminator
So Azezil, what you going to do?

Any decisions made?

Has it happened since?

X

i haven't been in work since, i only work weekends

am i suppose i'll make the guddies less accessable and just throw them out on sight i suppose!

tribble

Further Q'tion for those in the know...


1. Can a security guard/ store person actually require you to open your coat/bag?

2. Can they search you?

b

Victor

Originally posted by tribble
1. Can a security guard/ store person actually require you to open your coat/bag?
2. Can they search you?

No, but they can detain you until the Gardaí arrive.

Gordon

Yes, you have the right by law to detain someone that has commited larceny in your shop. Usually "barring" someone is enough to make them never come back but you will have to prove a point at least once. what you should do by law is put up a sign saying "Management reserve the right to refuse admission". With this you can refuse anyone, just because they exist doesn't allow them access to anywhere in the world.

Deffo get cameras though, jeez if you're in Dublin and don't have cameras you could be in trouble soonere or later.

Hobbes

From my days behind a shop counter as far as I remember. Legally they can't be charged for shoplifting until they leave the store with the item.

At that point you can ask them to return to the store to call a cop. TBH if you actually hired a security firm they would tell you all this.

Now just enforce it selectively.

Nope sorry Xterminator, that is illegal. You either enforce it for everyone or not at all.

I had the exact same issue with McD's with this and it is very easy to be caught out by it. A Mc'D I had brekky at (on naas road) got stroppy with me just because of my clothes (wasn't dealing with a customer so was dressed to fix machinery, in old clothes). They were claiming I was in the wrong when they served me fine when I was dressed in a suit.

After that I noticed they pulled the exact same crap with other people who weren't dressed well.

tribble

No, but they can detain you until the Gardaí arrive.

but i have yet to be proven guilty and if they detain me it is wrongfull imprisonment (or similar) - i should try to escape (by hitting them really hard/ running fast or both)

i favour the hitting them really hard seen as i can't run really fastb:) :rolleyes:

i'm sure i'm wrong but i wanna know where...

Victor

Originally posted by tribble
but i have yet to be proven guilty and if they detain me it is wrongfull imprisonment (or similar)

No this is a pre-cursor to arrest, it is not imprisonment, I don't know the exact procedure, but if someone is caught in the process of committing a crime. Much like Airport / Port Police (who are Police not 'security' and are entitled to search / arrest, but not detain).

Originally posted by tribble
i favour the hitting them really hard seen as i can't run really fastb:) :rolleyes:

Then you will get done for assault / battery.

beardedchicken

but i have yet to be proven guilty and if they detain me it is wrongfull imprisonment (or similar)

they can hold you until the gardai come, under a citizen's arrest, just as you or i could do to anyone else who was breaking the law (afaik)

Saruman

Originally posted by tribble


but i have yet to be proven guilty and if they detain me it is wrongfull imprisonment (or similar) - i should try to escape (by hitting them really hard/ running fast or both)

i favour the hitting them really hard seen as i can't run really fastb:) :rolleyes:

i'm sure i'm wrong but i wanna know where...

Tibble.. did you ever think that by hitting them over the head and trying to escape proves your guilt and therfor extreme force will be used to apprehend you and add an assault charge to your shoplifting charge?