SBP: Eircom's high speed internet won't be cheap

Fergus

Adrian Weckler does a nice job at pointing out the excessive price Eircom are planning to charge for DSL..

Eircom's high speed internet won't be cheap

"Cynics may well ask how Eircom could afford to cut its wholesale price by 40 per cent when months ago it said a price cut would hit its profits. But the last thing the industry needs is another cynic."

byte

Yes, that's a pretty good report. I see installation costs €350! Jeez, that's a tad steep. Does this include modem and will it be yours or ISP rental?

pete

Originally posted by irishbyte
Yes, that's a pretty good report. I see installation costs €350! Jeez, that's a tad steep. Does this include modem and will it be yours or ISP rental?

The €350 fee is what eircom will charge other operators - the consumer's installation will be subsidised by the operator.

sceptre

Good article - just the right amount of cynicism in it

Nice to see that at least one journalist is aware that the battle over broadband hasn't been won yet (or will be for a while)

Winters

I read it today. E350 is a lot unless that includes the modem though. It also said that Ireland are only one of two europian countrys without a DSL network.



Annoying :rolleyes:

pete

/me gives up

Keeks

Originally posted by pete
/me gives up

Most of us gave up a long time ago....most ppl only read what they want to....and what they read is never the facts....just rumours or misinterpetions

/me wonders whether ther is any intelligience left in the world

infomat

Originally posted by irishbyte
Yes, that's a pretty good report. I see installation costs €350! Jeez, that's a tad steep. Does this include modem and will it be yours or ISP rental?

Eircom have not yet released their retail prices so Euro 85 per month is only a guess based on applying a traditional markup to the published wholesale price. My own guess was as follows Euro 49 plus 50% markup plus 21% VAT giving a total of Euro 88.93 (the Irish Times claims that the price will be between 80 and 90 Euro).

The connection fee of Euro 350 (down from about Euro 700) is what the wholesale and would in no way indicate what the end-user will be charged.

At this stage everyone is just guessing.

Altomaximus

Originally posted by infomat


Eircom have not yet released their retail prices so Euro 85 per month is only a guess based on applying a traditional markup to the published wholesale price. My own guess was as follows Euro 49 plus 50% markup plus 21% VAT giving a total of Euro 88.93 (the Irish Times claims that the price will be between 80 and 90 Euro).

The connection fee of Euro 350 (down from about Euro 700) is what the wholesale and would in no way indicate what the end-user will be charged.

At this stage everyone is just guessing.

Actually they did release pricing at www.adsl.ie €107.69 for i-stream solo with 3 GB traffic limit, inc VAT.

24 hours later the page was removed and replaced with what you see now. Why? Are they backtracking? Or just disorganised?

Anyway Mr Wreckler is way out of date and misinformed. Luxembourg has DSL and the European average DSL cost is far lower than €50-74 - which is not an average but a range of prices higher than exist in any EU country other than Ireland for basic consumer entry point unlimited traffic DSL connectivity.

Belgium is €40 Denmark is €41 Germany is €36 Italy is €51 Spain is €42 Sweden is €35 France €20

Altomax

Keeks

The price that was on the page first was the original price plan they announced way bacvk in september. But the ODTR didn't like the LLU prices eircom had and told them to change them. 6-7 months later the two sides have agreed to a proce sturcture and that brings us uptodate. (short version)

Altomaximus

Originally posted by Keeks
The price that was on the page first was the original price plan they announced way bacvk in september. But the ODTR didn't like the LLU prices eircom had and told them to change them. 6-7 months later the two sides have agreed to a proce sturcture and that brings us uptodate. (short version)

Rubbish! You are mixing up the €130 odd VAT inclusive price they were showing a few weeks ago with the €89 + VAT price which they were showing on Thursday night.

Go back to bed!

Altomax

Dr.Seagull

Originally posted by Keeks
The price that was on the page first was the original price plan they announced way bacvk in september. But the ODTR didn't like the LLU prices eircom had and told them to change them. 6-7 months later the two sides have agreed to a proce sturcture and that brings us uptodate. (short version)

wasnt it bitstream wholesale price they were arguing over in relation to adsl
llu was a seperate issue they were also arguing over

Altomaximus

Originally posted by Dr.Seagull


wasnt it bitstream wholesale price they were arguing over in relation to adsl
llu was a seperate issue they were also arguing over

The wholesale / retail bitream argument is just another game in the monopoly preservation racket.

If esat or tele2 or the Pope wants to provide DSL over an eircom line, eircom insist on a price for everything. If the Pope wants to scratch himself before getting past the door of an eircom exchange to install a DSLAM card it's another €200 scratching fee. If he wants to do it on a Saturday it's €500 and wash your mouth out if it's a Sunday its €1,000. Bla Bla Bla. So they piss off all the competition with massive fees for going to the bathroom, or breathing air, or daring to park their van in the nearest (non eircom owned) car park. So the competition give in to being a re-seller of eircom bandwidth. For which they pay €49 per month and then have to provide ISP services. In France an ISP can share an unbundled phone line with France Telecom for €3 per month. France Telecom continue to provide normal phone services. The ISP provides internet access at DSL speed. Everybody is happy. If the ISP wishes to have exclusive access to the line they have to pay €13 a month.

Eircom wants to control the works and will stop at nothing to ensure that this will be the case. They have the support of the government. Many internet users don't bother to vote anyway so they deserve to be screwed bigtime.

Altomax

dahamsta

Apparently the type of measuring tape allowed into exchanges was a major factor in the LLU negotiations. I'm not sure if that's actually true or just someone expressing their frustration, but I wouldn't say it's too far off the mark, because the CWU has been particularly bitchy about the exchanges. Like spoiled little children by all acounts.

adam (makes another 12,000 enemies)

infomat

Originally posted by Altomaximus


Actually they did release pricing at www.adsl.ie €107.69 for i-stream solo with 3 GB traffic limit, inc VAT.


Altomax

I saw that page and I really do hope that this was someone playing around rather than being the actual pricing for their ADSL offering.

One of the major problems from the ODTR's point of view was "margin squeeze" ... i.e. there was not sufficient difference between wholesale and retail pricing to allow buyers of the wholesale offerings to operate at a profit ... so Eircom reduced the wholesale price.

It can be argued that Eircom are not required to reduce the retail price from what they were seeking last year and this is true but this would not make any commercial sense because they would leave too much room for the competition to undercut their prices.

I suspect that anything over Euro 90 would operate against Eircom's interests so I suspect that Euro 107.69 is too expensive so I am not convinced that the prices displayed last week were accurate (Many people at fairly senior levels within the section of Eircom responsible for ADSL were not allowed to know the proposed pricing so it is unlikely that the Webmaster had such information available to him/her).

On the other hand Euro 90 is fairly close to 107.69 so maybe the information was correct which would be very disappointing as the cost of the higer speed service was over Euro 200 which is far too expensive.

At this stage I am betting on Euro 89 for the least expensive (capped) offering and Euro 190 (maximum) for the higher speed service with no cap

This is pure guesswork but does anyone else care to make a guess?

infomat

Originally posted by Dr.Seagull


wasnt it bitstream wholesale price they were arguing over in relation to adsl
llu was a seperate issue they were also arguing over

You are correct ... they are both very different issues.

Altomaximus

Originally posted by infomat


I saw that page and I really do hope that this was someone playing around rather than being the actual pricing for their ADSL offering.

One of the major problems from the ODTR's point of view was "margin squeeze" ... i.e. there was not sufficient difference between wholesale and retail pricing to allow buyers of the wholesale offerings to operate at a profit ... so Eircom reduced the wholesale price.

It can be argued that Eircom are not required to reduce the retail price from what they were seeking last year and this is true but this would not make any commercial sense because they would leave too much room for the competition to undercut their prices.

I suspect that anything over Euro 90 would operate against Eircom's interests so I suspect that Euro 107.69 is too expensive so I am not convinced that the prices displayed last week were accurate (Many people at fairly senior levels within the section of Eircom responsible for ADSL were not allowed to know the proposed pricing so it is unlikely that the Webmaster had such information available to him/her).

On the other hand Euro 90 is fairly close to 107.69 so maybe the information was correct which would be very disappointing as the cost of the higer speed service was over Euro 200 which is far too expensive.

At this stage I am betting on Euro 89 for the least expensive (capped) offering and Euro 190 (maximum) for the higher speed service with no cap

This is pure guesswork but does anyone else care to make a guess?

I guess it will be €40 to €50 and I suspect that anyone guessing at a materially higher figure than this has a vested interest in eircom (not to mention its demise).

Altomax

infomat

Originally posted by Altomaximus



I guess it will be €40 to €50 and I suspect that anyone guessing at a materially higher figure than this has a vested interest in eircom (not to mention its demise).

Altomax

Other than the fact that I live in Ireland I don't have any vested interest in Eircom.

Have you a problem with understanding what has being going on between Eircom and the ODTR ... why would Eircom retail a product at Euro 40 or 50 when they have agreed to a wholesale price of Euro 49 and when they are forbidden from having a retail price which is lower than the wholesale price (see my comments regarding margin squeeze).

longword

Originally posted by Altomaximus

I guess it will be €40 to €50

That's not even a remote possibility given the wholesale pricing of nearly €60 including VAT. That wholesale service doesn't include an internet connection either, so a substantial cost of the service isn't in there, and then you add the ISP's margin on top of that, all with VAT @21%. The chances are slim to none that the lowest priced retail service will come in below €100 after VAT. You can rest assured it will be 512/128 with a harsh cap.

Kulgan

pete i feel your pain

Ba$tard

I ponder the thought of Eircom fatcats actually reading some of this?

I bet most of it goes completely over their heads!
"Erm, whats this DSL thing they are all whining about? Is that on our roadmap?"

J.

Altomaximus

Originally posted by infomat


Other than the fact that I live in Ireland I don't have any vested interest in Eircom.

Have you a problem with understanding what has being going on between Eircom and the ODTR ... why would Eircom retail a product at Euro 40 or 50 when they have agreed to a wholesale price of Euro 49 and when they are forbidden from having a retail price which is lower than the wholesale price (see my comments regarding margin squeeze).

Airhead! Have you read the thread from the start?

Given that eircom's "wholesale price" is higher than many DSL retail prices in Europe - including ISP feed - eircom's wholesale price is OTT and by a big margin. The wholesale price needs serious downward adjustment too. Please read my earlier postings about the game eircom are playing (eg 21-04-2002 19:57).

Altomax

Altomaximus

Originally posted by longword

That's not even a remote possibility given the wholesale pricing of nearly €60 including VAT. That wholesale service doesn't include an internet connection either, so a substantial cost of the service isn't in there, and then you add the ISP's margin on top of that, all with VAT @21%. The chances are slim to none that the lowest priced retail service will come in below €100 after VAT. You can rest assured it will be 512/128 with a harsh cap.

If your attitude is typical of eircom's customer base is it any wonder that Ireland's consumer broadband internet access is in such an expensive mess?

Moron consumers like you deserve to be trampled on!

The politicans know it. The regulator knows it. The eircom lot know it. You have allowed yourself to be manipulated into acceptance of a higher than €100 per month DSL access cost - despite the fact that it costs about a third of that amount elsewhere in Europe on average.

Suckers!

Altomax

infomat

Originally posted by Altomaximus


Airhead! Have you read the thread from the start?

Given that eircom's "wholesale price" is higher than many DSL retail prices in Europe - including ISP feed - eircom's wholesale price is OTT and by a big margin. The wholesale price needs serious downward adjustment too. Please read my earlier postings about the game eircom are playing (eg 21-04-2002 19:57).

Altomax

I agree that the "wholesale price needs serious downward adjustment " but the way you present your case indicates a total lack of maturity.

Here is one of your statements:

The politicans know it. The regulator knows it. The eircom lot know it. You have allowed yourself to be manipulated into acceptance of a higher than €100 per month DSL access cost - despite the fact that it costs about a third of that amount elsewhere in Europe on average.

You predicted a price of between 40 and 50 Euro and yet you claim that we have been manipulated into accepting a price of greater than 100 Euro.

You appear to be engaged in a separate discussion totally unrelated to what price Eircom will be offering ADSL at. Predicting that their launch price will be Euro 40 or Euro 50 indicates that you have lost all contact with the real world which may be a good thing for the rest of us.

sceptre

Easy now folks. Don't get the nice moderator mad.

Words to avoid include "moron"

longword

Originally posted by Altomaximus

Moron consumers like you deserve to be trampled on!

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Come see the violence inherent in the system!

Violence inherent in the system!

Dustaz

Sceptre is the nice moderator, Im Bad Cop

Altomaximus

Originally posted by infomat


I agree that the "wholesale price needs serious downward adjustment " but the way you present your case indicates a total lack of maturity.

Here is one of your statements:

The politicans know it. The regulator knows it. The eircom lot know it. You have allowed yourself to be manipulated into acceptance of a higher than €100 per month DSL access cost - despite the fact that it costs about a third of that amount elsewhere in Europe on average.

You predicted a price of between 40 and 50 Euro and yet you claim that we have been manipulated into accepting a price of greater than 100 Euro.

You appear to be engaged in a separate discussion totally unrelated to what price Eircom will be offering ADSL at. Predicting that their launch price will be Euro 40 or Euro 50 indicates that you have lost all contact with the real world which may be a good thing for the rest of us.

Rightly or wrongly I read your "predictive" posting about DSL pricing yesterday as being on the eircom side of the fence.

Perhaps you are not, and you have been simply sucked into the eircom / odtr / government frame of thought that DSL must cost at least €100 inc VAT?

If you have nothing to do with eircom I apologise.

Anyway, wake up you have been BRAINWASHED by them![/B

Altomax

Altomaximus

Originally posted by longword

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Come see the violence inherent in the system!

Violence inherent in the system!

Hyperbole perhaps. Violence no.

I'd have to get you in a boxing ring to give you a bit of that stuff!

Altomax

Coyote

Altomaximus wake up no one has been fooled in to thinking that ADSL should cost more that about €40-50. But reality is a lot different that just what ADSL should cost. You do not have a chose. Eircom is a monopoly and if you want broadband in the next 2-3 years in Ireland then this is it. The price will fall in time but it will never fall if Eircom do not start selling it at all.
Some of us have been waiting 5 years for DSL from Eircom. And if it have been launched at €500 a month back then it would cost under €60 by now but the longer they can put off the launch they longer the price will stay high.

Altomaximus

Originally posted by Coyote
Eircom is a monopoly

Yes it is, and monopolistic behaviour is unlawful under both Irish and EU law.

What is the point in having a legal system and a court system and an European Union legal framework if eircom can get away with abusing their monopoly (eg DSL starting at over €100 per month inc VAT)? They control almost 100% of the local access market for residential subscribers. There couldn't be a bigger monopoly than that.

Perhaps everyone should buy a gun and rob a bank and get on the same gravy train? It's only breaking the law after all.

Altomax

Coyote

Altomaximus what do you want?
If you’re here just to give out about Eircom take your ticket and wait in the very very very very long line. Some of us have been fighting for 5 years with them to get DSL.

What you do not see is that for 100's of small business they have to have internet access and any sort of 24/7 broadband is better that none. The cost of the OTDR delay costs me more money that if they had just put it on sale at the higher price.
There are companies paying €20,000+ for 1mb lines so a 1mb line for less is a good thing.
DSL will not do for a lot of companies needing lease lines, but for others it's heaven sent.
Is it cheap enough no. But all you can do is keep fighting for it. To be made cheaper.
What do you want us to do?
Just stay at home offline till they make it cheaper?

If you’re a thief and rob someone it's a crime
If your a company and rob your customers it's business
If your the government it's called tax

DeVore

Originally posted by Dustaz
Sceptre is the nice moderator, Im Bad Cop

And if he's bad cop, I'm Dirty fncking Harry.

Toned it down, you're preaching to the converted. Argue the point dont insult the poster.

DeV.

infomat

Originally posted by Altomaximus



Rightly or wrongly I read your "predictive" posting about DSL pricing yesterday as being on the eircom side of the fence.

Perhaps you are not, and you have been simply sucked into the eircom / odtr / government frame of thought that DSL must cost at least €100 inc VAT?

If you have nothing to do with eircom I apologise.

Anyway, wake up you have been BRAINWASHED by them![/B

Altomax

There is no perhaps ... I already stated that I have no vested interest in Eircom.

I have been engaged in a constant battle with Eircom since I established Infomatique (a BBS) many years ago and have never at any stage given any indication that I am on Eircom's side of the fence. Just because I predicted that Eircom will charge close to Euro 100 would not normally lead a rational person to conclude that I support Eircom but for some really weird reason you did.

For three years I have tried to get reliable access to the Internet at a reasonable price (which is why I joined IrelandOffline) and while I may not be very happy with the expected pricing I do not have much option but to accept what is on offer.

I am willing to lose one or two battles in order to win the war but I assume that your approach will be to boycott the ADSL service until it drops to below Euro 50 ... such strength of character is to be admired.

If someone pointed a gun at your head and asked you to hand over your watch and you did would it be fair for me to claim that you are an ****** or that you were brainwashed ?

Altomaximus

Originally posted by infomat


There is no perhaps ... I already stated that I have no vested interest in Eircom.

I have been engaged in a constant battle with Eircom since I established Infomatique (a BBS) many years ago and have never at any stage given any indication that I am on Eircom's side of the fence. Just because I predicted that Eircom will charge close to Euro 100 would not normally lead a rational person to conclude that I support Eircom but for some really weird reason you did.

For three years I have tried to get reliable access to the Internet at a reasonable price (which is why I joined IrelandOffline) and while I may not be very happy with the expected pricing I do not have much option but to accept what is on offer.

I am willing to lose one or two battles in order to win the war but I assume that your approach will be to boycott the ADSL service until it drops to below Euro 50 ... such strength of character is to be admired.

Fortunately, where I hang out, I don't have to put up with eircom's crap DSL rates for a service they don't have.

Makes me wonder why I bother posting to a forum like this.

Altomax

infomat

Originally posted by Altomaximus




Makes me wonder why I bother posting to a forum like this.

Altomax

I must admit that I 100% agree

Delphi91

Originally posted by Altomaximus


Fortunately, where I hang out, I don't have to put up with eircom's crap DSL rates for a service they don't have.

Makes me wonder why I bother posting to a forum like this.

Altomax

Makes ALL of us wonder the same thing!!!

Dustaz

yeh, i think ill go and post to the Andorra Internet Association forums, just for the laugh:)

El_MUERkO

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Come see the violence inherent in the system!

Violence inherent in the system!

Ah Monty Python, I wonder how those boys would deal with this comic farce.

Dr99

Originally posted by El_MUERkO


Ah Monty Python, I wonder how those boys would deal with this comic farce.

Probably involving a man wearing boots and holding a large dead red herring!

dahamsta

Probably involving a man wearing boots and holding a large dead red herring!

Ah, The Fish Slapping Dance. Course, the large dead red herring would have to have "eircom" down the side. And it wouldn't be a man, it'd be a big ugly rat. (The opposition would be a smaller ugly rat.)

adam

infomat

Originally posted by infomat




At this stage I am betting on Euro 89 for the least expensive (capped) offering and Euro 190 (maximum) for the higher speed service with no cap

This is pure guesswork but does anyone else care to make a guess?

Looks like I was wrong.
The prices announced were very disappointing and the two lower priced options are capped (3 and 6).

Basic Service ... I-Stream SOLO Euro 89 plus VAT
I-Stream MULTI Euro 139 plus VAT
I-Stream ENHANCED Euro 169 plus VAT

SkepticOne

Originally posted by infomat
Looks like I was wrong.
The prices announced were very disappointing and the two lower priced options are capped (3 and 6).

Basic Service ... I-Stream SOLO Euro 89 plus VAT
I-Stream MULTI Euro 139 plus VAT
I-Stream ENHANCED Euro 169 plus VAT

Always prudent to see what the competition offers. Eircom's wholesale product, even though overpriced, does not include a cap. I think the cap is something that would disapear with competion. The other thing I think will go will be the high-end retail pricing ~ EUR 200. I can't see this being sustained. I might be wrong here, but I think it's worth waiting. Of course the high wholesale price will have the effect of limiting competition.

longword

My guess is the other operators will be aiming to undercut Eircom prices, as opposed to coming up with an independent cost-based pricing structure. The 1Mbit service will probably be just as expensive. I think the best we can hope for is decent pricing on the 512k service - possibly as "low" as €80 ex VAT uncapped, perhaps less with a 5GB or smaller cap.

infomat

Originally posted by longword
My guess is the other operators will be aiming to undercut Eircom prices, as opposed to coming up with an independent cost-based pricing structure. The 1Mbit service will probably be just as expensive. I think the best we can hope for is decent pricing on the 512k service - possibly as "low" as €80 ex VAT uncapped, perhaps less with a 5GB or smaller cap.

There is plenty of room for others to undercut Eircom's pricing so there is some hope.

keithwhir

with the xboxs coming and its adsl modem , we should start to see real mainsream adsl demand and eventualy lower prices . :rolleyes:

longword

Originally posted by infomat
There is plenty of room for others to undercut Eircom's pricing so there is some hope.

At the low end, there's not a lot of scope beyond playing with the caps. The ISP has to cover 49 euro a month for the wholesale line. On top of that they have to pay for (a) provision of an internet service, (b) billing/finance, (c) tech support, (d) misc. overheads, (e) a margin for themselves, and (f) the balance of Eircom's 350 euro installation charge (against the 165 or less ex VAT they'll be charging you for the install) which they'll probably want to make back over a contract period of 12 months - that alone is 15 euro a month.

Working within Eircom's wholesale rates it's difficult to see sub 80 euro, but in my book that would be enough for now if they dispense with the silly cap. As an initial offering, in the full knowledge that Early Adopters expect to be fleeced, 80 euro ex VAT with a 10GB cap would be reasonable IMHO.