MP3, Are they legal?

jim_bob

i don't get this. the boards find it perfectly alright to post up links for kazaa . so people can donwload mp3 and stuff. most of the stuff that you get off these sites are illegal. and have warez on them too. but anything to do with cracks and warez sites are forbidden. what is going on???

kazaa is just one big warez program

Boston

mp3 downloads arnt illegal in ireland.

jim_bob

Originally posted by Boston
mp3 downloads arnt illegal in ireland.

they are illegal to have if you don't own the origanal copy and even if they are not illegal in ireland they are all protected by international laws. do you ever read what it says on cd discs

quote from a cd

the copyright in this sound recording is owned by sony music entertainment (uk) ltd.
unauthorised coyping, public performance, broadcasting, hiring or rental of this recording prohibted

Boston

how could i read whats on a cd, when i download them?

I see no problem with these secific programs, since there mostly used to download music. i wont change ms app/os forum policy,
you can appeal this to devore if you wish Pm him,

but if you want to continue this discussion, please take it to the right forum.

I asure you anybody asking, or posting warez links will be stamped on, hard here.

Cake Fiend

Originally posted by Boston
mp3 downloads arnt illegal in ireland.

Now Boston, it's not exactly a secret that you're well practiced in the art of Spouting Absolute Bollocks, but this really takes the proverbial. Have a read up on the Irish Copyright Act like a good lad.

Shinji

Have a read up on the Irish Copyright Act like a good lad

Or indeed the Berne Convention, which Ireland is a signatory to, and which quite clearly defines what the legal situation here is.

Where on EARTH did you get this particular crackpot idea, Boston? I'd be genuinely fascinated to know what your grounds for making that kind of statement is. I know that you're not expected to be all-knowing as the board moderator, but that kind of ridiculous statement would be deleted as a troll on pretty much any other board!

Boston

well no more illegal then home recording,

Boston

Originally posted by Sico


Now Boston, it's not exactly a secret that you're well practiced in the art of Spouting Absolute Bollocks, but this really takes the proverbial. Have a read up on the Irish Copyright Act like a good lad.

Name one person arrested in the state for downloading mp3's and ill retract my statement.

It is illegal to j walk here as well, you dont see people getting so much as a fine for it though.

its illegal to have a mobile phone on your person while driving a car, the police themselves said they wont inforce that one.

Unless something is inforced, then how can it be stil la crime?

I never said they were legal to download, i just said they werent illegal, theres a huge grey area in between the two, such as immoral, un just unfair ect

Asuka

Lol!

A

strat

Unless something is inforced, then how can it be stil la crime?

I never said they were legal to download, i just said they werent illegal,

Quality muppetism

Just cause im not enforced not to kill say YORE MA that dosent make it not illegal



TBH

Monty - the one and only

hmm
see where this was orginally posted here

It actually makes sense that way.


Boston mp3's are illeagal to download unless you own the cd/cassette or whatever. There is no two ways about it. Dont embarass yourself any further.

Slydice

Is it illegal to download mp3 from Band Websites where the express permission of all concerned with the song has been given?

So much for whatever freedom people had to give stuff they owned away for free!

Thanks for enlightening me, shinji monty all you guys who seem to [edit] dislike boston's opinion[/edit] etc...

k,tnx, gg, pld and all your other pedantic stuff

Celt

jim_bob, no-one forces you to download illegal material with and kazaa's express purpose isnt to download said material.
[edit]my personal use of it really has nothing to do with the thread[/edit]

Monty - the one and only

Slydice, stating such a fact in a thread that involved kaaza, which has nothing to do with bands sites...

Bard

Personally, I think that allowing or disallowing discussion on KaZaA and other P2P file sharing apps should be up to the Admins and NOT Boston (or any moderator for that matter), as it's an issue with possible legal implications.

"Napster" used to be a dirty word on Lucutus' Music/Radio board.

Originally posted by Boston:

Annoying, moi?

Oui, bien sûr.

Asuka

Thats also illegal.

A

EDIT - Referring to celt's post above.

Celt

Originally posted by Asuka
Thats also illegal.

A

EDIT - Referring to celt's post above.

Yup

Slydice

In the same fashion of my previous post...

so if you agree that downloading from a website is allowed with the permissions i mentioned,

would not all downloading of MP3's be allowed providing that the artist and all concerned give their expressed permission?

so that would make downloading of MP3'S no matter how, providing the conditions i mentioned were met, LEGAL?

YES or NO?

Cos I don't know Irish Law, I haven't read the

Have a read up on the Irish Copyright Act like a good lad

Or indeed the Berne Convention, which Ireland is a signatory to, and which quite clearly defines what the legal situation here is

Can one of you well informed people who presumably have read those documents tell me what the law says about the senario i just outlined?

Don't correct my grammer or spelling in your replies I recognise that it could be wrong!

Celt

"Napster" used to be a dirty word on Lucutus' Music/Radio board.

Napster's only purpose was for the transfer of mp3 files.
Unlike KaZaA

Anyway, linking to the thing can in no way have legal implications

Boston

Originally posted by Monty - the one and only
hmm
see where this was orginally posted here

Boston mp3's are illeagal to download unless you own the cd/cassette or whatever. There is no two ways about it. Dont embarass yourself any further.

mp3 is a file format, freely available, there is no law stating mp3's are illegal, because anything could be on an mp3, me singing lady in red could be on an mp3. it is illegal how ever to download copyrighted material. But thats me just being anal, the same way sico and shinji are being anal about the exact meanign of what i posted.

StrataGIST those laws are inforced, but sometimes are unable to be carried out to the full. Im not one of these people that prides himself on obaying the law, if they dont make any sense.

again untill people start to get arrested i wont take it as a serious law. IT was not intended to legislate against personal use but against large bodies taking advantage


Btw for all your bitching about how illegal this and that is, one complaint and i would have remove the thread. seems to me some of you, shinji and sico, are more interested in moaning then actually doing something about it.

Dustaz

Originally posted by Boston
mp3 downloads arnt illegal in ireland.

Downloading any copyright material is illegal. The context in which you phrased this - i.e. "in ireland", implies that in ireland, you can download any type of copyright material on mp3.
Also, in the original post, the context was downloading warez and copyrighted mp3s. It is perfectly legal to download mp3's from places such as mp3.com but that is not what you were talking about.

Unless something is inforced, then how can it be stil la crime?

I think you should probably stay away from law as a career. No matter how stupid you think the law is or how little it is enforced does not magically it legal.

Boston, just drop it.

Boston

Originally posted by Boston
it is illegal however to download copyrighted material.

Post directly after it:

Originally posted by Dustaz
Downloading any copyright material is illegal.

I never said they were legal to download, i just said they werent illegal

Originally posted by Dustaz
how little it is enforced does not magically it legal.

i love it when people dont bother to read the posts that have gone before hand.

BTw im sure you can download perfectly legal mp3's on kazaa, since a few bands (minor ones) have come out and said they dont mind.

im still waiting for someone to pm me a complaint, i wouldnt have posted the kazaa program, but due to (crying to mommy syndrom) i cant delete any celt posts without someone to back me up.

GoneShootin

this may help, expecially page 8 [i think]

Slydice

Boston, what you just did, just there, thats called Flame Baiting, and even though I've argued that mp3 downloading is legal, ie I pretty much came into the argument on your side,

<cut the **** slydice - DeV.>

Shinji

Btw for all your bitching about how illegal this and that is, one complaint and i would have remove the thread. seems to me some of you, shinji and sico, are more interested in moaning then actually doing something about it.

Actually I don't give a damn if your board has a thread about Kazaa on it. I was merely interested to know where on earth you got the impression MP3 downloads were legal in Ireland.

Since you've since effectively retracted that statement but gone into massive realms of pedantics (just how many people on Kazaa are hunting for Boston_sings_lady_in_red.mp3, do you think?) in order to avoid admitting you were wrong, I'm going to have to go into pedantery as well - if only for the amusement value.

So here's an interesting fact for you. If a band or individual distributes an MP3 via their website, then yes, it is in fact illegal because they are not paying the due royalties to the MCPS for this distribution. If it's streaming, it counts as broadcasting - and hence royalties are due. If it's downloadable, that's distribution - and again, royalties are due. However, since it's almost impossible to track the distribution of an MP3 set loose "into the wild", this method counts as copyright theft and is illegal.

I don't personally believe that this system is enforcable in the long term; however, as the mechanical fees recieved by the MCPS decline due to the downturn in CD sales and the uptake of digital media, you're bound to find that there'll be a few years when the MCPS goes on a rampage over this stuff, and prosecutions WILL happen.

So there. It *is* illegal. And, believe it or not, "it ain't a crime if you don't get caught" isn't a major tenet of the Irish or European legal systems.

Swifty

Mp3 downloads aren't looked upon as seriously as warez for some reason. Sure a single song doesn't cost as much as your average computer game - but alot of people download whole albums and never buy CD's in their lives. It's just as cheap if you ask me.

SheroN

I'd liken putting a link for kazzaa to selling a bread knife. It's purpose is to cut bread, but used incorrectly it could kill someone!*

*crap analogy.

GoneShootin

If a band or individual distributes an MP3 via their website, then yes, it is in fact illegal because they are not paying the due royalties to the MCPS for this distribution. If it's streaming, it counts as broadcasting - and hence royalties are due. If it's downloadable, that's distribution - and again, royalties are due

just a question Shinji, would this hold true for someone like amazon or cdnow,
or in a band situation, someone like these chaps ?

DeVore

Christ, I'm embarrassed at the ****ing clue-level of ALL of the posters here. Armchair lawyers the lot of you.


Wake up people, here is the truth:

MP3's are not illegal in Ireland. I have several hundred LEGAL mp3's on my harddisk including some I made myself.
To my knowledge MP3's are not illegal ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.
Its a file format, how the hell do you rule a method of organising information as illegal.

Transmission or possession of copywritten material for which you DO NOT HAVE A LICENSE is illegal REGARDLESS OF THE DISTRIBUTION METHOD.... burnt cd's, mp3's, paper etc.

Kazaa certainly is NOT illegal. It can be (and often is it would seem) used to break copyright law how ever many things with legitimate uses are frequently used to break the law. A link to Kazaa is a link to a genuine website that wants to distribute its software. A link to a warez site or a warezed copy of software is a step too far. It has no use but to steal the software/etc.

Links directly to copywritten mp3's would be banned and the person 12-clicked.

Things are "illegal" regardless of whether a certain group of police officers choose to enforce it. Its still against the "LAW".

Some actual *facts* too. I know you all seem to avoid them like the plague:

"A senior Dutch court has ruled along these lines by saying that
file-sharing software Kazaa doesn't steal copyrighted music. That finding by the Court of Appeals in Amsterdam yesterday reversed a lower court's opinion. The court in November first ordered the Netherlands-based company behind the Kazaa technology to stop offering the peer-to-peer (P2P) software or face fines of $40,000 a day."


Oh and if you dont have a clue, take your finger off the reply button... sheesh.

DeV.

gurramok

Originally posted by Shinji

So there. It *is* illegal. And, believe it or not, "it ain't a crime if you don't get caught" isn't a major tenet of the Irish or European legal systems.

Is it actually stated in Irish law whether it is legal or illegal to download mp3's ? !
/me thinks it's a hazy area.
If you own the original cd's and convert them to mp3 format it is perfectly legal ??
What if you own the original cd and download the exact same material in mp3 format, is that legal ? !!
What if you swap with an online 'friend', is it the same as swapping with a real-life friend legal wise in the street ? !!

Shinji

Tom :-

MP3's are not illegal in Ireland. I have several hundred LEGAL mp3's on my harddisk including some I made myself.

You're replying to a totally different argument, and of course you're correct - no file format can be illegal (although Microsoft might have different opinions about DivX 3.0, but even the US courts won't touch that one).

What Boston said was : "mp3 downloads arnt illegal in ireland". Note "downloads". He was blatantly suggesting that downloading copyright music in digital form isn't illegal in Ireland; he went on to defend this on the basis that nobody has ever been arrested for it so it can't be illegal. He was patently wrong and it doesn't take an "armchair lawyer" to point this out, just anyone with the slightest clue about national or international copyright law.

Seems a bit harsh to start shouting about people's "clue-levels" or "armchair lawyers" when actually quite a lot of what has been posted is correct... (Although of course you chose to pursue the Kazaa thing the discussion started from - I don't think the discussion has really been about Kazaa since Boston decided to argue that MP3 downloading is legal....)

Boston

shinji just admit your wrong, the download of mp3s is not illegal, fact, show me the law were its states mp3 download is illegal. i have not retracted any statement but rather backed it up.

this is what I stated and yes im correct. devore has stated several arguments I used, yet I don't see him getting jumped on in this fashion.

He was blatantly suggesting that downloading copyright music in digital form isn't illegal in Ireland

No I wasn't, and I think im a better judge of what I was saying then you are. ive said already that the download of copyrighted material is illegal.

and I only got onto the issue of the copyright law when someone else brought it up, are following arguments were directed at that.

you can me pedantic, that is hypocrisy of the highest order, you condemn me on one word, download, why is download any different then ripping,

Actually I don't give a damn if your board has a thread about Kazaa on it.

it seems to me that you were looking for an argument to start with me, now ive handled this well, devore(remember that guy) has said my original statement was perfectly valid, as is my policy on file sharing programs,

get over it, you have lost this argument. and do us both a favor next arguement we have keep it civil. i dont apperciate being called a fagot, a retard, a muppet, a spanner, or what ever

Meh

Originally posted by gurramok
Is it actually stated in Irish law whether it is legal or illegal to download mp3's ? !

It's a well established legal principle that if something isn't explicitly illegal, it's legal. The acronym "MP3" does not appear on the Irish statue books. Therefore downloading mp3's is perfectly legal. I can download all the mp3's I want, provided I have the consent of the copyright holder. Making copies without the consent of the copyright holder is illegal however. It was illegal before the advent of mp3's and it'll be illegal with .oggs or .mpc's or whatever file format replaces mp3.

If you own the original cd's and convert them to mp3 format it is perfectly legal ??

Yes. Look up "fair use" .

What if you own the original cd and download the exact same material in mp3 format, is that legal ? !!

Mp3.com got sued and lost for that in the US, so apparently it isn't legel there. There's no similar precedent under Irish or EU law, however. So the answer is, nobody knows if it's legal.

What if you swap with an online 'friend', is it the same as swapping with a real-life friend legal wise in the street ? !!

Exactly the same. No difference whatsoever.

Boston

Originally posted by Meh
Therefore downloading mp3's is perfectly legal. I can download all the mp3's I want, provided I have the consent of the copyright holder.

do you agree that downloading mp3's as a broad example, is not illegal?

we cant all be wrong shinji,

gandalf

What the hell is this post doing on the Politics board. Moving it to the Technology one.

Gandalf.

Meh

Originally posted by Boston
do you agree that downloading mp3's as a broad example, is not illegal?

Absolutely. Downloading mp3s is legal; infringing copyrights is illegal. The former does not necessarily imply the latter,

Meh

Originally posted by Shinji
What Boston said was : "mp3 downloads arnt illegal in ireland". Note "downloads". He was blatantly suggesting that downloading copyright music in digital form isn't illegal in Ireland

It's possible to download copyrighted mp3s legally from sites like mp3.com. You lose.

Boston

now the wait to see if shinji is a big enough man to admitt hes wrong.

gandalf, this was a legal issue, which i thought would most suit the politics board.

Dustaz

Originally posted by jim_bob

quote from a cd

the copyright in this sound recording is owned by sony music entertainment (uk) ltd.
unauthorised coyping, public performance, broadcasting, hiring or rental of this recording prohibted

Next post

Originally posted by boston
how could i read whats on a cd, when i download them?

You were talking about copyrighted material originally. Which is why you got all the replies you did. This is the point we were making NOT whether the mp3 file format is legal or not.

Dont get me wrong, nearly all of us download this material all the time. It just doesnt make this any the less illegal.

With respect Devore, i deal with music copyrights nearly every day and while im no lawyer im fairly sure i know when im breaking the law with regards to this issue.

Boston

Originally posted by Dustaz
You were talking about copyrighted material originally.

wrong dustaz, my orginal post was mp3's are not illegal to download, a post that since then has been challenged by sico and shinji, on its on mirits, since down ive been proven correct,

now what you want to do is take another, later post (which was a sarcasm btw) and use it in context with the first. thats just no on.


what most people, yourslef included atempted to do was twist my words so it appeared i was saying it was not illegal to download copyrighted material.

the first time the word copyright was used was after me orgianl post, not before.

why you got all the replies you did

no i got all these replies because people persumed one thing while the truth was another thing.

in fact your the only one to quote that comment, people read my comment and said, hold on mp3 = copyrighter material, when I pointed out that MP3's = doesn't necessarily = copyrighted material I got called pedantic.

Was my orginal statement correct dustaz, yes or no.

Shinji

No I wasn't, and I think im a better judge of what I was saying then you are

Oh really? Well you see, that's interesting. Someone made a comment about your permitting of a Kazaa thread on the MS Apps/OS board, as the primary use of Kazaa is copyright theft through downloading MP3s. Your single-line response to this was that downloading MP3s is not illegal in Ireland. Now, in human language we have this thing called "context" - you can turn around now and say "I never meant copyrighted music" and try and make everyone else on the thread look like a fool, but lets face it - nobody here is a bloody idiot Boston, and secondary school debating points like that mean sod all.

It's patently obvious what you meant. Had I misinterpreted you, I would accept that I was incorrect. Since you're now lying about your original post, I see no reason to accept anything of the sort. Still, I suppose it's a step up from deleting bits of your original post and then claiming you never said them, like you're more used to doing. There's hope for you yet!

why is download any different then ripping

Er, because when you rip a music file from a copy you already own, you are exercising a right to make a single "back-up" copy of a piece of copyright information on perishable media. This is enshrined in copyright law in both Europe and the USA. Downloading is not the same thing - and the reason places like MP3.com got done for this is because of the illegality of making copyright material available for download in any form.

it seems to me that you were looking for an argument to start with me

Rubbish. You posted something which I felt was inaccurate and, in fact, completely off the wall, so I pointed this out. I don't wander around the boards stalking you - oddly enough, I have far better things to do with my time. And you're not the only person I've argued with extensively, but oddly enough you're the only one apparently claiming persecution...

and do us both a favor next arguement we have keep it civil. i dont apperciate being called a fagot, a retard, a muppet, a spanner, or what ever

And where on this thread, exactly, did I do that? Come on Boston, it's one thing to try and pretend you never said/meant something yourself, claiming that I did say stuff when anyone reading the thread can see that I didn't is another matter entirely.



Meh : -

It's possible to download copyrighted mp3s legally from sites like mp3.com

Actually, that's rather the point of my own little excursion into pedantery earlier on - in Europe, because mp3.com and the artists involved aren't paying fees to MCPS, they're actually technically in breach of the law.

Yes, I know this is stupid. The law is perfectly capable of being an ass at times

However, this point of pedantery aside (it doesn't apply outside Europe and is an unenforcable law never intended to cope with MP3 or internet streaming), I never argued that all "downloading MP3 format media", blanket term, is illegal. What I contended was Boston's blanket "downloading MP3s is not illegal in Ireland" - right on it's own, but entirely incorrect and misleading in context.

This has become a ridiculous nitpicking argument. We all know what the facts of the matter are, we could argue people's intentions in how they phrased things till the cows come home. Let's drop this.

Boston

as i suspected, shinji is right, im wrong (because of context or some other such bull)

Meh is wrong cause shinji allready said what he said except in a different way with different words and a different meaning

And where on this thread, exactly, did I do that? Come on Boston, it's one thing to try and pretend you never said/meant something yourself, claiming that I did say stuff when anyone reading the thread can see that I didn't is another matter entirely.

no you see i didnt calm you said anything, theres a little thing called context. your werent very civil to me in your argument.

then in another sentance i said i dont appreciate being called a muppet ect. i didnt say you called me a muppet, just that i dont appreciate it.

big difference between saying "i dont appreciate being called a muppet ect" and saying "i dont appreciate you calling me a muppet"

now i expect an apologyfor beeing accused in the wrong, i wont recieve on because your allways right

i was called a homo in this thread, as the logs would point out.

Im amused by the fact you say lets drop it and at the same time still trying to discredit me.

it was in context of a program, that isnt illegal, to downlaod a file format that isnt illegal, simple as that.

Boston

anywho im willing to let this drop, as im pretty much after coming out on top.

im sure you will be less quick to attack me in the future and thats the imporant thing.

Now lets jsut be happy this arguement has been settled without the need for an admin to close this thread, or anybody running to the admin board callign for me to be hung from the nearest yardarm

Shinji

You're class Boston, you know that? Pure class. Don't ever change, the world would be a poorer place without you. Laughter is such an important thing!

Nietzschean

anywho im willing to let this drop, as im pretty much after coming out on top.

LOL @ Boston....shinji's right...nearly make the guy a damn admin this is the funniest thread i've ever read on boards. How can one guy still believe he's right after all this? still i can't complain makes fer some interesting reading....i wonder what score he'd get on an iq test....tho what ever it is i'm sure my dog would beat it as he show's no sign's of actual intelligence...my dog can understand no and sit...what can he do?

GoneShootin

wont someone please think of the children ?

Slydice

KILL THIS THREAD

hacktavist

Originally posted by Boston
anywho im willing to let this drop, as im pretty much after coming out on top.

Lol just how exactly did you come out on top?

Boston

Lol just how exactly did you come out on top?

well shinji pretty much declared it a draw, and I had 2 members and an admin backing my side while shinji had one or two mods and some no lifers, I think that's pretty even. there was no right and wrong in this thread, just how much support you got.

but in the grand scheme of things , I had my forum policy indorsed by the board administration so it wont be challenged again,
I had it excepted that as moderator I do have the right to make such policies, and I had my original statement(but just the original one) backed up, what ever about the rest being crap.

Serialkiller, you may compare me to a dog, but ill never roll over and play dead.

Gordon

<calculation mode>
hmmm.... 2 members and one admin....
compared to 2 Mods and some no lifers.
Now, I can only presume that a -member is worth 1 point
-No lifer is worth 3 points
-Mod is worth 4 points
-Admin is worth 5 points

(Thats what those stars are for isn't it?)
So let me get my calculating slide rule out of my smoking jacket one second...
clackety clack clack
Boston - you have 7 points
Shinji - you have 14 points

</calculation mode>

Boston

you forget an admin has 5 stars and they are gold, which doubles the power of the admin and when used in conjunction with devore it is tripled,

so i work it out that ive at least 20 points compared to shinji's 14.