Travellers tell President they believe trespass Bill is racist

azezil

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2002/0329/3336602564HM7AGITATE.html

Mr O'Donoghue denied claims that the measure was introduced by the Department of the Environment without consultation. "This legislation is aimed at a small group of people who are more often than not coming in from abroad, who are going into private property and causing real difficulty and leaving the place in a dreadful state.

"You cannot expect people to tolerate the kind of mayhem that was being caused on private land. People have entitlements to amenities but no one has the right to destroy those amenities."

When working in Ennis I seen first hand the mess left behind by certain "members of the travelling community", I refer to the case where pupils returning to school were greeted by human excrement in their playground. I seen the mess left when they moved on.

Travellers however claimed the provision would effectively make it "illegal to be a Traveller" and expressed fears that it would be used against all Travellers in every circumstance by local authorities.

Bull! The bill merely gives the local authorities the right to move along troublesome members of the community. At present if the local authority want's to move a traveller family out they have too provide accommodation within a two-mile radius of the site, a totally unrealistic expectation imo.

He said the Government had promised 2,200 Traveller-specific units of accommodation for Travellers by 2000 under a 1995 task force, yet only 111 new units have been furnished to date.

yes it is rather apparent the government are not doing enough to resettle travellers but that is no excuse to move into private property, trash it, then carry on to the next cite.


I for one am in favour of this bill, your thoughts?

klong

i would support this bill.

the travellers have only themselves to blame, for the most part. The end result of their camping on private property is to remove any sympathy they had in the public eye.

I know there are few halting sites for them, but when they are provided they vandalise them and go off elsewhere.


I don't see why can be whinging when they can afford to buy brand-new caravans costing thousands of euro, buying new jeeps and owning houses.

gurramok

I have 100% support for this bill. It has been long long overdue in my opinion.
From what i can see coming from traveller reps is that it is racist to punish people who tresspass illegally and wreck the place thus destroying the environment !?!?!

This new law will only affect i believe less than 10% of travellers who are making all the bad publicity for the travellers as a whole.

From personal experience, travellers have been encamped for 30 years illegally on fingal council land (dunsink lane)between finglas and blanchardstown in Dublin, where illegal dumping is taking place on a regular basis, proof is the absolute disgusting mess(worse than the mess at dodder last summer) scattered over a wide area.
Any open space that these minority of travellers move onto is destroyed, the councils have erected barriers on open spaces all over dublin to try to put a halt to the destruction of the environment.

The reason why they had not been moved on was the lack of an enforceable law, thus i believe this law is the best law(if enforced) that has been introduced by this government.

Boston

hmm. i totaly support this bill. it was allways a crime.

Meh

No matter how you feel about the proposed bill, I don't see how it can be described as "racist". Travellers aren't a separate race to settled people.

pugwall

I do support the bill although I do feel sorry for the majority of travellers who happen to be decent people who feel they are being marginalised in our so called caring society. As in most cases, it is the loud minority of scumbags who lead all travellers being tarred with the same brush.

yellum

Well then the silent majority of good honest travellers should do something to stop the loud minority representing them then.

You know I'm reminded of Ali G, "Is it cos I is black ?"

No lads, it has nothing to so with racism its because what you are doing is a crime.

Victor

Originally posted by Boston
it was allways a crime.

But I think the fine was £5.

Boston

or a farmer blowing you knee caps off.

seriously i had a friend, walking in the wood one summer, came out onto a field, started to make his way accross the field when a farmer shot him in the legs(a round of buck shot) at about 50m maybe more.

police did nothing since it wasnt allowed to be there

seamus

A different race! They're just moochers. They talk of tradition and a 'way of life', but when's the last time you heard of someone getting their shoes fixed or a pot fixed by the knackers?

Typedef

Interesting, but commonly and comfortably forgotten fact is that Travellers originally come from people who were 'displaced' from thier land in Ulster when Ulster was colonised, up until then Ulster had been the seat of power on this Island, so in a sense Travellers are the contiguious result of colonisation endemnafied by an entire way of life.

Perhaps this legislation is really aimed at illegal raves conducted in fields in rural area (x) and perhaps it is aimed at travellers, one thing is for sure, this is an election year and this right wing government in the spirit of right wing governments the world over is using a presecution real or percieved of minorities to shore up it's 'mainstream' support.

This government has been notoriously ignorant and xenophobic towards immigration and refugeeism, it allows notions of racism and ignorant racist xenophobia to breed so that it can capitalise on playing to the racism, it underfunds the health service and schools, it comes under fire from disability groups and has come under fire from Travellers rights groups too, therefore this government is simply a draconian throwback to nineteenth centry conservatism dressed up as a string of unconnected marginilisations of the vulnerable in society.

What do you think because RTE show a halting site in a mess on the national news that this legislation suddenly stops being part of this government's right wing social policies? I tell you I could post pictures of my street the day after a GAA match in Croke park, or of O'Connell's street the day after St Patricks day, so does that mean that such events, being dirty should be quelled? Nope, in my view this legislation is like this government less to do with a need to remedy a situation and more about draconianism. Oh but better watch out, if you don't vote for Bertie you know what will happen don't you, the socialists will take over and do away with all the wonderful social justice the Fianna Fial party has put in place.
Ah the joys of living from the scraps of the righteous pulpit politicians notion of social justice eh?
Down with this sort of thing

azezil

/adds Typedef to ignore list cause i don't agree with him


This bill won't just effect travellers, it'll effect anyone caught trespassing on private property. IMO this law makes alot more sense than the laws currently in place.

Boston

Originally posted by Typedef
Interesting, but commonly and comfortably forgotten fact is that Travellers originally come from people who were 'displaced' from thier land in Ulster when Ulster was colonised, up until then Ulster had been the seat of power on this Island, so in a sense Travellers are the contiguious result of colonisation endemnafied by an entire way of life.
[/B]

SO was my family, about 10 maybe mroe generations ago, Whats your point?

What do you think because RTE show a halting site in a mess on the national news that this legislation suddenly stops being part of this government's right wing social policies? I tell you I could post pictures of my street the day after a GAA match in Croke park, or of O'Connell's street the day after St Patricks day, so does that mean that such events, being dirty should be quelled

The events you talk about are cleaned up afterwards by the cropo and something like that, you don't have to do it.
Also I know for a fact you (probably not you personaly )receive things of the gaa for the disturbance caused by a match, you guys would have got allot more though if you residence committee was better, but that's hardly the gaa's fault

Nope, in my view this legislation is like this government less to do with a need to remedy a situation

People can now have tha gardi forcable remove people unlawfully on their land. saounds good to me but its only a start.

Ah the joys of living from the scraps of the righteous pulpit politicians notion of social justice eh?

your a fan of hyperbole

azezil

Originally posted by Typedef
Interesting, but commonly and comfortably forgotten fact is that Travellers originally come from people who were 'displaced' from thier land in Ulster

WTF! members of the traveling community, or Jip-sees as they were known originated in middle eastern countries. They were later called tinkers by local people as they used travel round the country exchangeing their service of repairing pots and pans in return for food / other goods. When this tradition died out they were refered too as travelers.

There are probably 'some' members of the traveling community who originated in Ulster but to imply that all travellers in Ireland "originally come from people who were 'displaced' from thier land in Ulster" is wrong!

blondi

I Agree with boston RE: recent action on Travellers. I Accept that halting site facilities are poor in many cases, but litter laws and trespass laws apply to EVERYONE and travellers have no justification in looking for exemption from laws that dont suit them.
There are many laws I dislike, the laws on soft drug use is one , but until that changes, it's tough **** for me , we live in a democracy and until the majority want it, it should remain illegal.
I dont like it but will live with it until sensible debate and the wishes of the people prevail in my favour.
Again the 'Mother Teresa set' cant resist their bleeding heart demonstrations and newspaper centerfolds of 'Citizen Traveller'
to make us feel guilty for living our lives responsibly, paying our taxes, keeping our living space(be that a bedsit in Manor St. or detached residence in Donnybrook) clean, respecting our neighbours.
I feel sorry for the women in the travelling community as they dont seem to have the same 'freedom' within their own community as women have in the settled community.
Perhaps if they had as much control over their own lives things would change as I firmly don't believe any woman wants to send her children out begging, but in many cases must do to feed the anti-social habits of a drunken and often violent husband who's status is measured in the amount of offspring he has produced.
Yes the women have it rough...But the law is the law and that law wouldnt exist unless people felt the situation couldn't continue and hence , lobbied to have it passed.
Settled people have a right to protect their property and I don't resent them for that by labeling them as Racist .
A SOBER , SENSIBLE solution should prevail here.
(not a 'final' solution)

The Corinthian

No one has an ethnic right to break the law.

No one has an ethnic right to take from Society without contributing.

However, to point the finger at Travellers alone would also be unfair. There are plenty of settled anti-social parasites out there too.

blondi

'parasites in the settled community'

I agree, fair point.....

Boston

Originally posted by The Corinthian
However, to point the finger at Travellers alone would also be unfair. There are plenty of settled anti-social parasites out there too.

yea, and if they go onto private ground, they to will be arrested

handyandy

So what about someone walking (innocently) on a hilltop or a public right of way on private land or someone with a private right-of-way?

Methinks this is a bad law.

Dotsie~tmp

Creamers out.

Only if they are tresspassing of course. I live in Finglas and they have 4 sites here. 2 are legal (one at the top of Cappagh and one small one on Dunsink Lane), and the 2 are illegal (one large site again on Dunsink Lane surrounding the small legal one and the other further up Cappgh Road just outside Finglas).

One common feature you will find legal or not is the unbelievable mess at each. Its no exageration to say they are health hazards. Now i know this law no matter how legally just it is will create hardship for them and for the most part the are actually very nice people (you can say the same for settled) but they simply must accept tresspass is a common law in almost evey country in the world.

They are their own worst enemy. If you dont live near a settlement and disagree with this bill take a trip out here and look at what the residents of estates like Dunsoley Castle in Finglas have to put up with. Those brand new houses are infested with rats. Not from the dump but the huge rubbish heaps at the knacker camps!! I could go on but their would be no convincing some people until of course the woke up one morning to see something that resembles an Afghan refugee camp outside their door. Oh dear the house prices!

PS: You will notice any time in the past this issue has gained country wide attention is only when they set up in supposedly one of Dublins more upmarket areas?? Of course thie councilors are soon up in arms and the law isnt long springing into action. Not so in Finglas, Ballymun and other areas where the residents complaints go unanswered for decades...a fúcking joke.

Dotsie.

beardedchicken

Originally posted by The Corinthian
No one has an ethnic right to break the law.

No one has an ethnic right to take from Society without contributing.

However, to point the finger at Travellers alone would also be unfair. There are plenty of settled anti-social parasites out there too.

i think that just sums up perfectly the current situation. granted, the travellers don't get the same treatment at the hands of the corporation, for example, the local halting site doesnt get a refuse collection service like the rest of us, among other disadvantages, however, this does not equal a right to act in a way that would lead to anyone in the rest of society being arrested etc. and then claim to be discriminated against

Monkey

there should be more sites provided for Travellers and there should people who work on site there to make sure there are no problems and the sites are kept clean.

blondi

The government should deal with the 'reality' of the traveller and the people will applaud them, but to deamonise them as some 'sub species' will martyr them, it will be their victory.
The extremists on the 'Right' are lying when they call them 'worthless eaters' and other less desirable things and I KEEP SAYING HOW WRONG THAT IS ! They are sublimley clever, and they are intelligent as well.
It is part of their culture to 'get' something from another person, even if thats a cigarette or a few pence , and that must be understood and to a degree accepted.
My point is this, if they want to be treated as equal citizens then they must obey the same laws we ALL have to obey.
There should be proper sites manned by a site foreman/social worker who ensures :
1) Families entering site should keep their area clean, free of firearms and stolen property.
2) Each family registers on entry and exit , which they should be allowed to do as often as they wish , without restriction.
3) That all vehicles in use on site are Taxed and Insured.
4) That the children go to school EVERY DAY.
5) The women should have access to a family planning doctor and get free advice in this area if they want it.

I believe that if people felt a traveller was subject to the same laws as the rest of us, then only 'shabby racist biggots' will continue to object to them , exposed for all to see and judge
I say again A SOBER SENSIBLE solution must prevail
(not a 'final' solution)

Rabies

I totaly agree with blondi, those 5 points you stated should be made law.

Travellers are as irish as everyone else in this country and deserve the respect that settled people get but as many of you have said it is the minority groups of travellers that cause so much hassel.

For example i know of a person a few years ago that wanted to sell his land but suddenly a group of travellers made camp on his land and would not move. The local police could not move them, they were brought to court and they WON the case. The owner of the land had to pay £14,000, nearly €18,000 CASH to get them to move. He had to settle of out court.

I support the governments move to finally act and make it a criminal offence to make residence on private land. But when the the first traveller is brought up in court by this law he/she will probably claim this is a racist law and walk away free....

handyandy

Originally posted by Dotsie~tmp
Creamers out.

What is a 'creamer'?

blondi

'Creamer' , Not sure what it means ?

but I believe "Confusious" said

' Man who squirts cream into tart , not always Baker ! '

Forgive my irrelevant interjection....please carry on.

Meh

Latest on this law: Travellers invade Russian Consulate in Dublin
The travellers have found a great way of showing the need for this law. This is quite possibly the stupidest way of protesting ever.

klong

But because its Russian territory, it has to be left to the Department of Foreign Affairs etc.
So- from what I gather- the law won't apply in this sort of situation

Meh

Originally posted by klong
But because its Russian territory, it has to be left to the Department of Foreign Affairs etc.
So- from what I gather- the law won't apply in this sort of situation

Interesting. So if Irish law doesn't apply on the consulate grounds, are the Russians allowed to use any amount of force they see as necessary to eject them?

Sand

And were they granted Visa to enter russian territory as the consulate is? And will the russians deport them? Or will the guards extradite them for some crime (no matter how petty- littering in their last campsite for example).

Be interesting to see what will happen but the "protest" will only add weight to the governments argument that the law is needed.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Meh
Interesting. So if Irish law doesn't apply on the consulate grounds, are the Russians allowed to use any amount of force they see as necessary to eject them?

In theory yes, Russian law applies and diplomatic personal are not bound by Irish law, or may be even detained, for that matter.

In real(ity) politik they won't.

Kensai

Originally posted by Monkey
there should be more sites provided for Travellers and there should people who work on site there to make sure there are no problems and the sites are kept clean.

Why should people be paid to look after the travellers?

blondi

kensai , no offence intended , but be realistic..?

We have 2 choices

1) do whatever we must to find a happy medium ?

or

2) shoot them ?

if it took another 100yrs I would still choose option no. 1.
( AND I'M NO MOTHER TERESA )

we could opt for no.2 , but the smell of blood carries very far, what would happen to your secret killings then ?

if i were them i wouldn't fu*k about with the ruskies....

ReefBreak

Interestingly, most of the media are in support of the new bill - even the Irish Times! Well, the editorial anyway. RTE TV however, appears to be sticking to it's bleeding-heart guns and staying strictly on the side of the travellers. According to last nights report, the travellers were being victimised and the new bill was racist. Queue video shot of a bonfire on the Russian Embassy grounds.

seamus

Originally posted by blondi
It is part of their culture to 'get' something from another person, even if thats a cigarette or a few pence , and that must be understood and to a degree accepted.

Wrong. Their culture originally got something for doing odd jobs. They moved in, did a few jobs, and were largely accepted by the local population. Now they move in, cause hassle with the local population (I'm sorry, but it's a majority are scum, not a minority), and demand money/clothes/food for absolutely nothing. On top of that, plenty of then do have legitimate trades, raking in the cash.

Other than that your post makes great sense

Meh

Originally posted by blondi
We have 2 choices
1) do whatever we must to find a happy medium ?
2) shoot them ?

False dichotomy.

Typedef

Nonesense.

Most people here are being inflaminatory and are saying utterly biggoted and racist things.

There is no conclusive evidence that proves in an objective way that 'most' travellers are scum, that is just a racist comment.
Most people who say that travellers simply desire to live in destitution, ultimately show their own ignorance and closedmindedness.

Travellers are people like everyone else, now it pains me that some posters seem to think this is a 'bleeding heart' notion, really it does as I hate to burst their insular, biggotted little bubbles, but the fact is that there is a miasma of reasons these people live the way they do and to condemn them for what you percieve to be true of all people from a Travelling background simply shows biggotry in it's most seething and fervent form.

None of you actually can prove the wild and leude accusations you are making about Travellers being spongers or creamers or <insert derogatory deference> so please before you go spouting off your racist claptrap think.

Muchos Gracias
Typedef.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by blondi
It is part of their culture to 'get' something from another person, even if thats a cigarette or a few pence , and that must be understood and to a degree accepted.

Absolutely. And it is part of my (Italian) culture to pinch women on the backside.

Fight against racism! Show us your bum, lass

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Typedef
There is no conclusive evidence that proves in an objective way that 'most' travellers are scum, that is just a racist comment.

Agreed, but racist is the incorrect, and emotionally charged, term.

None of you actually can prove the wild and leude accusations you are making about Travellers being spongers or creamers or <insert derogatory deference> so please before you go spouting off your racist claptrap think.

Absolutely – given that they adhere to the same laws and responsibilities as the settled community, all this is a moot discussion and won’t apply to them.

leeroybrown

Well I won't have much respect for the travelling community in general while there are unacceptable problems with them, whether its caused by a majority or a minority.

Canaboid

I believe this derives from cream crackers - rhyming slang ?

blondi

Thank you for the False Dichotomy link Meh ,I read it with interest, and think I’m clearer on the concept now, but the point I was trying to make was this.

I would like it to be understood that I personally have NO SPECIAL LOVE for travellers. My inditement to travellers is , I believe , based on the ‘reality’ of their existence among us, wether we like it or not they are here to stay.
I believe they have as much right to be here as anyone else and I believe in the supremecy of the ‘Rule of Law’ (which travellers should obey like the rest of us , without exception.)

Therefore I have no problem with the new legislation and think it is long overdue , but if we pass these laws without some kind of framework in place to address the problems of poor halting site facilities and making provisions for the obvious differences in their culture to ours, it’s hardly a surprise some people will see the new laws as ‘racist’.

Shooting them is of course not an option , but in reading some of the other posts I am dismayed at some of the remarks being made disregarding an entire community as ‘worthless scumbags’ If we fully disregard them and write them off totally, the world would have justifiable contempt for us, and this will martyr them and hence, make it their victory (as I have said in an earlier posting)

I was trying to stress that if we give up trying to find a solution that would suit all parites concerned the whole issue could slide into the abyss, the further travellers will be alienated , the worse the situation will get , and the higher feelings will run.

Sheamus made the point that they used to move in and do ‘odd jobs’ and this was certainly true in the past , but consumerist society has made the traveller redundant in this respect . If you have something that breaks you throw it out and get a new one.
When was the last time anyone brought pots and pans to the ‘tinkers’ to repair ?
However on meeting a traveller they will ALWAYS ask you for ‘something’ and will persist until you give them something , and then they will go on their way.
There is a specific word used in the travelling community for describing this concept which I cannot remember at the point of writing but will endeavour to find out.

’Gothe’ said

”Theories are grey, and Real Life is green.”

We should deal with the reality of the situation and stop farting around with theoretical solutions.

Victor

I know how to shoot down this law.

/me is going to put a 'no political canvassing' poster on the driveway and get all the politicians arrested as they come around!

---

Re: the Russian Embassy. I haven't seen anything about it, but generally the Russians (except in a case of a request for asylum ) could use reasonable force to eject trespassers and could call on the Irish government for assistance under the Vienna Convention.

Dotsie~tmp

Originally posted by handyandy

What is a 'creamer'?

Dublin slang, Cream Crackers....Knackers. Surprised you aint heard it.

gurramok

Originally posted by Dotsie~tmp
Only if they are tresspassing of course. I live in Finglas and they have 4 sites here. 2 are legal (one at the top of Cappagh and one small one on Dunsink Lane), and the 2 are illegal (one large site again on Dunsink Lane surrounding the small legal one and the other further up Cappgh Road just outside Finglas).

Hey Dotsie, u must be around the corner from me(settled of course !!), boards.ie is a small world
The manager of Fingal council last year declared it was his intention to move the travellers who run that big giant scrapyard on dunsink lane off the land(across the road from the settled travellers houses), however nothing has come of it so far.
Thats why this new law will give the council the necessary powers to evict the illegal squatters. All its down to now is will it be enforced properly :rolleyes:
Residents here are thinking of taking civil action against the council as its an environment hazard.

They are their own worst enemy. If you dont live near a settlement and disagree with this bill take a trip out here and look at what the residents of estates like Dunsoley Castle in Finglas have to put up with. Those brand new houses are infested with rats.

I would second that opinion, i see it everyday, not a pretty sight, nearly 30 years of rubbish lying around

blondi

I sympathise with 'Dotsie' and 'Gurramock' living so close to halting sites.
I myself do not, but I know that the scenes they describe are accurate, and believe travellers should be subject to our litter laws too.