Catholic Church Payout

Yurmasyurda

Did you hear this on the news, the people that suffered abuse from the clergy while they were in the catholic churches hands will be getting some sort of settlement, but wait for it.. 128million euro is being donated from the catholic church (ahh how nice) and the rest which could equal up to 600million euro is being payed by the feckin tax payer! :mad: Hellow! the catholic church is possibly the wealthiest organisation in the world, enough money to feed everyone in the world hundreds of times over and they can't fork out for their own wrong doing!

Just thought I'd rant cos this is absolutely ridiculous. Anyone got any other insight on this?

Yurma

Victor

I think you are right, insofar as yes, you are ranting.

It was said today, that while some religious orders and individuals do have responsibilities in this regard, so too does the state, the same state that put these people in these institutions in the first place.

And before you extend your rant, perhaps the state should have spent that money all those years ago caring for those people instead of using it to punish them. Perhaps by properly funding those institutions or providing alternative institutions and alternative models for care.

Yurmasyurda

Originally posted by Victor
I think you are right, insofar as yes, you are ranting.

It was said today, that while some religious orders and individuals do have responsibilities in this regard, so too does the state, the same state that put these people in these institutions in the first place.

And before you extend your rant, perhaps the state should have spent that money all those years ago caring for those people instead of using it to punish them. Perhaps by properly funding those institutions or providing alternative institutions and alternative models for care.

While I agree with you, unfortunately it's money coming out of hard working citizens of the present and not the people that deserved to pay it! That's really what annoys me. But we'll get screwed every possible I s'pose

Victor

Originally posted by Yurmasyurda
While I agree with you, unfortunately it's money coming out of hard working citizens of the present and not the people that deserved to pay it! That's really what annoys me. But we'll get screwed every possible I s'pose

But then who are the people who should have paid?

Maybe the priests and brothers who had vows of poverty? Admittedly the orders collectively had large amounts of property, but thats why they are paying up.

How about our parents, our grand parents?

The money can only come out of future resources, not past ones (but hey, if we want to get back against the old folk, how about a properrty tax?)

koneko

How bout a poll. How bout we vote on whether to close the church down for good, and use the money for something that is actually useful. Greedy *mumble mumble* so-and-so's.
Oh I sound bitter.

Hobbes

Just don't give your church collection if you feel that strongly. Not all priests are bad, but some have some nerve.

When we first moved in the local priest was over like a flash to bless the house and then give us our "church collection" letters.

Some years later, the grandmother came back to Ireland from England as she hadn't long left. The mother went to the priest to work out funeral arrangements and he told her she couldn't have it in his church as she was from England (not his parish). We had to end up getting her done in her orginal parish (miles away). The mother had always been giving the church collection up till then.

The muppet then had the nerve to come around on the day of the funeral (while everyone was in the house) asking if she was alright as he hadn't got a church collection from her in weeks. Oh man you should of seen verbal kicking he got and the envelope box thrown at him.

Shane

Why are these b*****ds being allowed to BUY their freedom? A pathetic e120 million, no one goes to court? It's a national disgrace. What I propose the government should do:

Seize all church property in Ireland. Lease it back to them at a fair price, give some of the revenue to the abused and pump some back into the community.

Anyone else agree?

Sand

Sieze church property? Respect for property is one of the foundations of western society. I understand your anger but siezing property isnt the answer. Any company in Ireland will become extremely nervous and what will that do for our economy and investment? - the cure in this case would be worse than the disease.

By the way you say "lease it back to them". Seeing as you have seized their property with what exactly will they pay? Their parish collections maybe but seeing as its all going to the government for them to decide how to divide up anyway, we would be better off by levying a tax on all church going catholics or chrisitians in general.

In short, no, I dont agree.

Shinji

I'm also somewhat unhappy at the idea of the State paying compensation to people in this position.

Frankly, if you were abused as a child, I fail to see what making you wealthy now is going to do to help... Other than taking money out of the pocket of the taxpayer and away from places where it's actually needed.

There are enough people in positions where money IS needed to help them, without giving compensation money to cases where the horse has bolted and the whole bloody stable has been knocked down already.

Without belittling the suffering of these people, this seems like an astonishingly foolish way of going about things. Of course we imported it from the yanks with their wonderful culture of litigation...

The State isn't a group of old men in suits who perpetrate evil deeds, it's all of us. When the State pays out it hurts us all, and the people it hurts most are those most in need.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by ScottB
Why are these b*****ds being allowed to BUY their freedom? A pathetic e120 million, no one goes to court? It's a national disgrace. What I propose the government should do:

Seize all church property in Ireland. Lease it back to them at a fair price, give some of the revenue to the abused and pump some back into the community.

Anyone else agree?

Why? The people who will end up paying didn't do anything wrong. If people broke the law then prosecute them, but don't penalise the innocent.

Victor

I'm surprised at the sheatr ignorance of your post.

Originally posted by ScottB
Why are these b*****ds being allowed to BUY their freedom? A pathetic e120 million, no one goes to court? It's a national disgrace.

No one is buying their freedom. A number of religious orders have agreed to pay a large amount of money as part of the compensation to people who were abused in State institutions.

Who says no one goes to court? All the press coverage down the years indicates that several dozen people have been though the courts.

What particular point are you saying is "a national disgrace", the original abuse? the reason those people were in institutions in the first place? the amount of money? or some other point?

Originally posted by ScottB
What I propose the government should do:
Seize all church property in Ireland. Lease it back to them at a fair price, give some of the revenue to the abused and pump some back into the community.

So would you seize all the property of organisations that have been associated with the church here? Like the St. Vincent de Paul, Share, schools, community centres, hospitals, adoption agencies, youth centres, homeless shelters, aid agencies?

And if you are going to take all these assets off them, how are they going to lease them back? Take those assets away and the state will have to pay an awful lot more for the services provided than it does at the moment.

Victor

Originally posted by Shinji
I'm also somewhat unhappy at the idea of the State paying compensation to people in this position. Frankly, if you were abused as a child, I fail to see what making you wealthy now is going to do to help...

I think you are missing the point. Many children who suffer abuse go on to develop greater, in particular social and mental-health problems in adulthood, including depression, substance abuse, homelessness, violent anti-social behaviour and repeat abuse of others. It is impossible to put a monetary value on the abuse of children. What can be done is to finance and alleviate these peoples' current problems though among others counselling, medical care and improved living conditions.

Shane

Maybe seizing property is a little too extreme, but what do you propose should be done? An investigation has shown that the church own at least e600 million in property, yet they feel that e50 million will do? It's not acceptable in my opinion. For too long now, they have used their (this) power in controlling the state. We need to take them down a peg or two. Show them that they aren't the almighty, the be-all and end-all. They are simply a religous group operating in the state. And in so, have no right to stick their nose in, where it isn't wanted, ie - political matters. Why can't they just foot the bill, apologise and get on with it?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by ScottB
They are simply a religous group operating in the state. And in so, have no right to stick their nose in, where it isn't wanted, ie - political matters. Why can't they just foot the bill, apologise and get on with it?

First of all, the church have as much right as anyone else to comment on political matters. And secondly, the Church never abused anyone, individuals did. By forcing the Church to pay compensation you are punishing entirely innocent people.

Shane

of course the church have as much right as anyone else to comment on political matters.

the Church never abused anyone, individuals did

Maybe so, but in "punishing" the church, you are provoking them to react with tougher measures to cut it out, forever.

Sand

I think your missing the fact that the church is not the be all and end all that it was in the 50s, 60s and even the 70s. The same abuse scandals that you demand the church pay up for have completely destroyed the power it once had in Ireland- even more so than modern values have in other countries.

As for why they cant foot the bill themselves? Well its a complex matter tbh. The church itself didnt abuse the children as already mentioned- individuals abused their positions of trust - however its known that some of these individuals were protected by bishops etc and sent off to be "treated" for their "sickness". This would make the church liable to at least some degree.

However I find it hard to belive that no one amongst the governments and social services of the time knew anything of the conditions these children were in. If they knew and did nothing then they are equally liable imo. The church should probably pay more, 50-50 would be fairest. However its the government who make the decisions and I dont believe the outcome would have been much different regardless of the party.

Shinji

However I find it hard to belive that no one amongst the governments and social services of the time knew anything of the conditions these children were in. If they knew and did nothing then they are equally liable imo.

This is the attitude I don't get. There's no All-Powerful Entity with an endless money pit called The Government, there's a thing called the State and that's all of us. This payout doesn't punish "The Government". The people responsible don't feel their pay packets tighten or their jobs threatened.

Those punished are the people whose projects don't get funded, and the taxpayers - that's YOU AND ME, the people seeing that huge chunk of cash disappear off our payslip at the end of the month - who pay for this.


Victor - I'm all for providing for care and counselling and so on for these people. I'm not on for paying them off or throwing "compensation" money at them. If the money - up to 600 million Euro - went into psychological research on abused children, or counselling centres, or prevention measures to make sure this doesn't happen again, I'd be right up there supporting it. If it goes straight into the pockets of those abused all those years ago, I'd call that a second wrong, which sure as hell doesn't add up with the first one to make a right.

Sand

I agree Shinji, but the most common form of compensation is monetary. Governments tend to have to clean up after other governments messes alot - Taxpayers as always have to fund the bills. And it does tend to punish the government *indirectly* because people associate the higher taxes and non funded projects with them - reducing their chances of retaining power.

JustHalf

Originally posted by Yurmasyurda
the catholic church is possibly the wealthiest organisation in the world, enough money to feed everyone in the world hundreds of times over

Exactly how much money to they have in liquid assets?

Evil Phil

Compensation is a good thing. It may give people a chance to do something that they missed out on because they were abused such as a good education or the chance to start a business. 128 million euro mightn't sound like much but I do know that the church pay for therapy for anybody claiming to abused by the clergy. Their family members such as parents, wives, siblings are covered as well as it affects them too. That runs into millions in costs. The organisation responsible are independent from the church and also provide a help line with counselling services.

Another thing and this is important, the Church or the Government do not dictate to the courts. This deal, like all the other ones before it, is an attempt to lessen the blow but if a Catholic order is found guilty of criminal neglect and are ordered to pay compensation by the courts. If ordered to then they pay or appeal the same as the rest of us, this will not buy them immunity.

Evil Phil

Although, I should point out, another reason for this payment is the fact that they do care about the suffering that has been caused and not because they're trying to avoid getting crucified in the courts.

Victor

Originally posted by JustHalf
Exactly how much money to they have in liquid assets?

Thats very hard to say, probably very little. What cash assets they have would typically be trusts, donations and bequeasts that can only be used for specific purposes.

Shane

My initial reaction on this issue has now changed. Maybe my view IS too extreme. A takeover of all church property, would be unfair. But I still believe that the church has no right to drop ANY of this bill on the Government. I do believe that someone had to know, just a shame the whole situation arose.

Shinji

And it does tend to punish the government *indirectly* because people associate the higher taxes and non funded projects with them - reducing their chances of retaining power.

Doesn't hold water, for two reasons. For a start, the Government left carrying the can is inevitably not the one that caused the trouble; and for another thing, the people who are REALLY responsible are rarely elected representatives, but civil service types; unelected, faceless and hence practically untouchable.



On the general issue of compensation, I don't believe in it as a culture. The argument that it allows people to do things they might have been able to do but now can't because of ***Insert Incident Here*** is a nice idea, but we've seen how human greed works. In the States, the litigation culture is destroying whole areas of society, like medical practice; this type of massive payout is just a step on the way to that nightmare scenario.

And of course there's still the question of where the hell the money comes from; in this instance it comes from OUR pockets, and I for one would far prefer to see the (inordinate amount of) tax I pay going into building worthwhile things for the future rather than varnishing over the ills of the past.