Opinion and suggestions...

PhilipMarlowe

Grab a coffee....

Firstly, this is not a forum I visit often because I find it too noisy... too much fluff to get through before I find something interesting to read.
Based on that, I would prefer to see more filtered content on the main website. I would be concerned that there still isn't a proper FAQ on the main site - if I came to www.irelandoffline.com as a first time viewer, I wouldn't necessarily bother to read through the .org stuff.... and getting to the forum (here), I might lose interest after going through a few topics....
My suggestion is to have a section on the main site - just even under the news page - that has a synopsis of the more interesting topics discussed in depth here.... like what I sometimes see on topgolds ubb....
Something like:
posterA says:
blah blah blah...
*********
but posterB thinks:
rah rah rah etc..., snipping out all the fluff in between...

So basically someone would go through the more relevant content here and present it on a more immediately accessible format on the main site. This content could also form the backbone of a newsletter…
I think that it would be more immediately accessible to newcomers that way and I believe that as a pressure group, new members are the lifeblood...

Secondly, having mentioned the FAQ earlier in the post, I think that this is pretty important to implement on the main site straight away. I see that a committee member is dealing with this... what state of readiness is it in... and if he/she needs help with it, why not put out a request. And I don't necessarily mean a FAQ to be a technical dictionary - basically a FAQ of what are the issues involved, like no flat rate etc... something that won't intimidate or bamboozle a newbie/technophobe.. basically something your mother could read and at the end, understand the issues. A more complete FAQ or whatever could be dealt with on an ongoing basis...
Making this preliminary FAQ dynamic would be interesting, adding a "viewed" column in the database and sorting the results by this "viewed" column, you would get an indication of which questions people wanted to see....

Thirdly, as SACM mentioned in his thread, what about the standard letters of complaint? He was criticised for not making any suggestions (bizarrely IMO) but the points he raised were perfectly valid, (albeit in a more disgruntled tone than he could have taken – then his thread got the medion treatment… )
Again, lets assume I am a newcomer to www.irelandoffline.com - I find out some stuff that gets me going a bit... I want to do something about it... I come to the forum here and lurk for a bit... get overwhelmed by it all and I fade away....
Bearing that in mind, the "what you can do" element on the site is weak tea in my opinion. Ok I can register my support etc, but people will want to be more involved....
And don't say that they can be involved here.... take me as an example - I have nothing to offer on a technical level - I wouldn't know DSL from LSD and besides, the NET/COMMS forum is the home for that kind of stuff... Also, I don’t know any of the legal issues involved... ok I can better understand the Business logic behind some of the decisions but I am not an expert.... basically I am a user.... so why would I post here... to complain about my internet costs? --- seen it all loads of times before.... it's all part of the fluff...
So unless I have some incredible new ideas that will fix everything, there isn't much I can do besides bolster the numbers. But I could bolster the numbers and at the same time send a pre-drafted letter of complaint to my TD. I could read about the relative state of affairs between Ireland and the rest of the EU regarding flat-rate and/or broadband.... I could tell my friends about this and email them a link to the www.irelandoffline.com site - where they could find out everything - not a bit there, a bit here and some more at the .org site... you are assuming that people will delve too deeply IMO.

Lastly, regarding the state of this forum, I find it peculiar that people are so defensive here... If someone posts a complaint that has (even a tiny amount) of merit, don’t slam them for not simultaneously posting a suggested fix. Imagine you are a retailer…. A person comes into your shop and complains to you about something – remember, you could tell them to fvck off, you didn’t ask them to come in.. they are not obliged to come in here… or they can come in here but fvck off and don’t complain….
As a retailer, you would love it if people pointed out where you could improve but surely you could discern this yourself based on the complaint. And then you decide whether to act on the issues rose.
I understand that what we have here is a voluntary pressure group and not a retail business but ignore the parallels at your peril. If committee member x is too busy to take care of say the condensed news idea I proposed here, then put out a request and authorise ordinary members Y and Z to post these kind of news articles on the main site. Basically, this would by extension involve more members because if they posted informative, clear and intelligent discussion on the forum here, their efforts might make it onto the main site.

Operate to your strengths – involve the members more, either directly (with responsibility for a particular job or whatever).
Don’t be afraid to ask for help.
Don’t be defensive when criticised – deduce the best approach to take based on the criticism, as long as the criticism is valid and not flaming…

Regards,

Mark Hennessy.

angryuser

Well stated Licksy. I noted unfortunately that your post was viewed by 51 people, but no responses since 26th December ?
I too stroll through the forum from time to time, but do not stay for long, for precisely the reasons you mentioned. Too many posts about irrelevant matters, too many fights going on, and not enough constructive suggestions, or involvement of the members.
Frankly the forum has become such a bore that it only worth a very rare visit. go through all the posts and count how many are totally relevant to the 'cause' ? sure there are lots of posts about news items and URL's but where does all that get us ?
I am tired of reading from certain people that "nothing to report, wait until we are ready to tell you" Wait for what ? Nothing ?
It has some similarities with the Mafia. "Wait until we tell you what to do" ?? Your suggestions Licksy should be read and acted upon immediately by those in 'power' (sic) especially the part about the main site and the FAQ and the arrival of new members, interested readers, etc: It would also be of relevance surely, to all members, and readers, to see and read a list of the achievements todate. ? Not what has been done, like the 'Blackout' and so on, but what has actually been ACHIEVED todate ?? !! how much progress HAVE WE MADE ? Any ? Are we any better off now, than when we first started back in May 2001 ?? Enough said.. bye, bye for another week or so !!

acous

I agree.

dahamsta

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34513

PhilipMarlowe

Good to see a response, although I am disappointed that one of them is a showing of a “yellow card” – quick, bring out the rule book…
If you feel that what I posted does not bear merit then I’d prefer that you either ignored it or else came out and said so directly… you won’t hurt my feelings.

I presented what I believed were valid points, offered what I feel is a workable solution. In my opinion (and I now see I am not alone), this forum is too cluttered – getting to the posts that are particularly relevant is not always easy…

Ok, if you check here every day then maybe it’s fine but…
Imagine you first come to IOFFL say on March 1st 2002
Are you expected to trawl through all the old posts here to find out the good stuff?
However, if the “good stuff” here was condensed into dated news articles on the main site, they would be immediately accessible. And let’s face it… the “news” section of the main site is weak
It is fine to get publicity in the media and link to that on the news page of www.irelandoffline.com but I would prefer the news to be the postings of the members on the forum here…. Without the fluff.
Think of it as a greatest hits album… minus the B-sides.

As an add on to my first post, is there a place where the committee members are listed? I had a quick root and didn’t come across it… as I said, I don’t follow every post here….

Regards,

Mark.

MarcusGarvey

Very very well said Licksy20. I completely agree with you. The whole don't complain unless you have a solution is very valid.

The mods do get a lot of complaints here and many of them are of the "You fascist bastards, how dare you delete my thread on bombing errorcom " type but some are valid complaints too, yet most seem to get the same treatment of being brushed off with the "if you're noy giving a solution then you're not contributing and are wating our time "

I think also the .org, .net and .com website should not be different, they should be mirrors of themselves. Navigating to a different website is such a waste of time. The core information should not be scattered over various websites. It should all be in one place.

Also the news section looks like there has been zero activity since before the blackout, last story: "Web Blackout Planned" , no story to say it was a success, we were on the news, we were on the radio etc.

I also would support Lickys solution that he provided. There you go, someone complained and gave a suggested fix, will this be listened to ? Hmm, well a url for the Rules was provided. Great reply that ......

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by Licksy20

is there a place where the committee members are listed? I had a quick root and didn’t come across it… as I said, I don’t follow every post here….

.

True, why not have that as a sticky with the details on it ? Also why not have a general email that will reach all committee members, I'm sure adam could fix it so committee@irelandoffline.org will get to all committee members. Sure theres going to be spam and abuse from some people of the medion variety but theres also going to be intelligent communications.

SkepticOne

Keep the suggestions coming.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey

I think also the .org, .net and .com website should not be different, they should be mirrors of themselves. Navigating to a different website is such a waste of time. The core information should not be scattered over various websites. It should all be in one place.

This is being discussed. There are good arguments on all sides!
As Mike said....Keep 'em coming:)

Also the idea of "committee@irelandoffline.org" feedback option will probably come in the form of an online comments section on the site which will then be received by the committee.

dahamsta

Good to see a response, although I am disappointed that one of them is a showing of a “yellow card” – quick, bring out the rule book… If you feel that what I posted does not bear merit then I’d prefer that you either ignored it or else came out and said so directly… you won’t hurt my feelings.

You asked about a FAQ, I pointed you to a post explaining about irelandoffline.org. I didn't feel the need to sugar coat it.

adam

PhilipMarlowe

Maybe so, but if there was no ulterior motive, why didn’t you just post a link to www.irelandoffline.org in the first place?

Besides, I did mention in my post that I think that the .org site is messy.

Ok, briefly my points-

.org = messy
.net = too much fluff mixed in with the good stuff
.com = not enough content

Now, and as other people are pointing out here, the concept of 3 separate domains anyway is flawed IMO.
I don’t actually believe that a non-techy type person would delve that deeply to find out stuff.

Deduce what you will from the above – my preference which I already stated is for the .com site to contain all the best stuff…

angryuser

I think 'that' comment says it all !! ["I didnt need to sugar coat it" ] !! Nobody asked for sugar coating, but to reply to Licksy with just an URL was surely a bit insulting ?? How about a reply to his constructive suggestions and proposals ? Is that toooo much to ask ?? How about making him the "Members Rep on the Committee" ??? Seems like there is quite a 'divide' at present ??
Maybe even worse than a divide ? Let the members speak up on that ? I note there was no comment made about our "achievements" ?? Wonder why ? Maybe we have not achieved anything ? Maybe it is this, and the frustration of members that occassionally boils over and therefore creates unkind remarks from them ? for frustration is evident, everywhere on this forum and has been for a long time. Frustration undoubtedly, that we appear to be going nowhere and to have achieved very little ?? Maybe.

Boston

i support these views, i do to thing the FAG sections should be on the main site, maybe thats somethign to wait for untill we have our own server, maybe not. We have come under attack for loosing the ensitive, some of that has been from muppets, granted, others by long time cinices, but a fair portons by the member ship.

you have two groups of people here, the bitchers and whiners and the people who will do what ever is asked from them,
the secound group are getting slightly concerned that there doesnt seem to be much for them to do. the seminar showed we had at least 200 members that will willing to get off their arse and support us in the real world,

these people are slow to voice concerns for fair of being classed with the muppets flooting around. these muppets who cry freedom of speach so much have made it impostible through there stupidity for anybody to convidently make suggestions and i for one am sick of it.


right, so what to do, in case of this topics, the points raised should be put to a 12day poll, both sides should put forward their arguments in a claim fashion, and upon the outcome of the poll, the changes(if any) should take place, we were once prised as an extremely professional group, why not act that way.

dahamsta

I think 'that' comment says it all !! ["I didnt need to sugar coat it" ] !! Nobody asked for sugar coating, but to reply to Licksy with just an URL was surely a bit insulting ??

How can posting a URL be "insulting", "showing a yellow card" or "bringing out the rule book"? It's a URL for gawd's sake, a link to the post explaining where users can find information about IrelandOffline, including the FAQ, which was specifically mentioned. Jesus Christ, you can't even open your mouth these days. I sometimes wonder why I bother.

adam

Snowbat

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
I think also the .org, .net and .com website should not be different, they should be mirrors of themselves. Navigating to a different website is such a waste of time. The core information should not be scattered over various websites. It should all be in one place.

My sentiments exactly.

I have pointed many people to the .org URL and was very surprised to learn it's not the main site but a FAQ project. Is IrelandOffline is a not-for-profit organisation or a commercial enterprise?

dahamsta

I have pointed many people to the .org URL and was very surprised to learn it's not the main site but a FAQ project. Is IrelandOffline is a not-for-profit organisation or a commercial enterprise?

It just happened that way, it wasn't intentional. The domains are all owned by different people, and the .org site is on a different server altogether. The original site was on another server, using the .com address, and moved to Boards.ie shortly afterwards. The .net domain was registered by Cloud and pointed here for convenience. And I registered the .org and set up the WikiWikiWeb on one of my servers. We're working on it, but it's a little tricky because myself and Fergus (Fergus did the calculator thingy) work on BSD/Linux, which means our code is written in PHP, and Niall works on Windows, and his code is in ASP. We just have to figure out which way to migrate. The URL is an old beef between me and Niall, he thinks it should stay where it is, I think it should redirect to .org. It'll all be sorted out in the next week or two anyway.

adam

pete

Originally posted by Snowbat
Is IrelandOffline is a not-for-profit organisation or a commercial enterprise?

Do you really think Joe Punter either knows or cares about how .com and .org were meant to be for specific types of organisations?

Or are you just looking for another stick to beat the committee with?

Snowbat

Adam's explaination noted - thanks.

Originally posted by pete
Do you really think Joe Punter either knows or cares about how .com and .org were meant to be for specific types of organisations?

I know, I presume you know, and I expect many people reading this also know. Anyway, the point is what should it be, not how many visitors understand or care. There is an established practice/tradition, we are not following it currently, and it has caused both myself and Gandalf to direct people to the "wrong" site.

pete

Originally posted by Snowbat
Anyway, the point is what should it be, not how many visitors understand or care. There is an established practice/tradition, we are not following it currently, and it has caused both myself and Gandalf to direct people to the "wrong" site.

Errr, no. The point is not "what it should be" - the point is "what it is". People were directed to the "wrong" site not because IOFFL broke some long ignored nerd rule, but because neither of you bothered to check what the correct URL was first! Right or wrong, even the registrars responsible for issuing .com, .net & .org gave up on any distinction between them a long time ago, and quite frankly I don't think it matters one bit what URL IOFFL is using - what matters is people reading it.

I happen to think that all three URL's should point to the same site, and that there should be a lot more clarity in the committees approach to the IOFFL website.

Suggestions? Lose the Wiki stuff for starters - it's nice in principle, but IMHO it's just an exercise in geekness which doesn't really help cultivate the "professional" image IOFFL needs as a lobby group.

pete

exiztone2k

Yeah, how about we right a song, lmao, like that stupid "feed the world" song, it would have been class to do it before christmas, have a parody "feed the world internet, let ireland know its christmas time" or some stupid **** like that hahahahahah

Marcus_Banned

"How can posting a URL be "insulting"

At the risk if getting myself in the bad books again I will try and explaine this as best I can. It was not the posting of the URL that mattered but the mannor in which it was done. It might have been mistaken for something else becaouse people that know you dont see this side of you. Again sorry if I put that wrong.

"link to the post explaining where users can find information about IrelandOffline"

I dont know if this again will sound insulting or not so here goes. As far as a lot of other people besides me think. It is a link to Old News. There has been nothing there since the Blackout thing. I have sent numerus people the the same URL. And you think you get smart comments from the people here ? You should see some of the replies I get from people I have informed about the IOFFL site and then asked them to join. I am not trying to caouse trouble here and there was some very good suggestions made in this thread. I find that some people start to get personnel when other people start saying what they see on here. It would be better to read the post from Top to Bottom and listen to the suggestions being made.

Again if im insulting anyone im sorry and if im going to be attacked again over what i have said. Then : ( <

---

my attempt at a frown thing sorry.

MarcusGarvey

Damn, but threads should be split into two from now on at this rate.

This thread was doing well and I had high hopes but now again its turning into arguments about non-crucial stuff. Lets only debate about the opinions expressed please and not the replies.

Create a new thread in recycled if needs be about who said what and what they were implying. Cut the waffle and put it into a new thread, this includes my current reply to thread.

Those that feel a grievance (sp) should have the right to take it up with the mods or whomever else, but do it in another thread.

We all know it makes sense.

Marcus_Banned

Not very nice I only agreed and gave my opinion as you just did and i did apologise too. I wont post to this thread again. Sorry

NeilF

I have to agree with most of what has been said already. The three domain thing is messy and it doesn't present the professional image that IrelandOffline is capable of. When IrelandOffline was formed Bard did an excellent job to get a good looking site together and that fact that so many of us voted for it to get an award shows our appreciation.

However, updating the website, getting information online and turning it into a propaganda machine has been a problem. I remember some talk about a "Content Management System" a while back and a quick search of the archives show it being considered in September and arriving Real Soon Now since then. Firstly, if we must use a CMS system why reinvent the wheel: Couldn't we just pull some scripts from the web? And secondly why not stick with HTML and KISS. As dahamsta has pointed out, getting into this server side stuff means a mix of scripting languages and skills. Everyone can do HTML, or save it in Word. I'd rather have a plain black on white HTML site with lots of information than an empty CMS system for us to admire.

The WikiWeb was set up originally as a place to trash out the content of a FAQ and to act as a kind of filter to the main web site. While it is a nice idea it lacks organisation and focus and I don't think anyone took that much interest in it. It is now part of the main web site and doesn't do anything for it.

We need good well written pages with facts, references and graphs to back them up for different audiences, such as a non-technical home user who needs it simply explained, a TD or civil servant who needs to see the national and political benefit and computer professionals who will understand any jargon. I think the committee should identify all these audiences and then ask for volunteers to be a writer/manager for a specific section. We would need no more than two or three for any particular section. They can then arrange between themselves how they will cover it. Don't forget that people like to be asked and people like to be thanked.

On this board there are a very interested but small group of people who are willing to take the time each day to see what's happening, filter out the (increasing common) noise and increase their knowledge. We can't expect the hundreds who have registered their support and the hundreds more who may have stumbled upon IrelandOffline to read months of posts on what is probably boards.ie busiest site to find out why they haven't unmetered access. We've a thousand plus email addresses. Enough goes on in here to create a fortnightly or even weekly digest of what we've discussed and send it to everyone. It keeps IrelandOffline, our goals and our progress fresh in their minds. For someone who doesn't want to give us their email the website should have similar digests and anything else we can put on it, such as Fergus' calculator. If the committee would be prepared to give email digests a try I would be happy to do it.

dahamsta

Ok, I can't go into detail because we're still discussing it, but I think it needs to be said that we /are/ attempting to deal with this, and to be fair, we've said that numerous times. All of the problems mentioned in this thread - and we /do/ recognise them as problems - have been voiced here again and again in recent months. Up until recently, it was a moan here and a gripe there, and although we get a little defensive - I'm talking about the past now, not the recent flame wars - I personally feel no guilt over that, because we answered the questions that were asked.

The fact remains though - I know you're all sick of hearing it, but the position is still the same - that we're a voluntary organisation, and we have other stuff to do. In recent weeks, it's all come to a head, but unfortunately on this occasion, it came at a really bad time - Elana and the babs, Martin and work, etc, etc. But we will deal with it. It'll take time, but we will. In recent weeks, three of us had a meeting to try and hash out a reorganisation of the group, including ways of getting the membership more involved; and the Dublin committee members are trying to organise a meeting up there right now. When that happens, we'll most likely have a consensus on what changes to implement, and you'll see a rash of announcements when it does.

Ultimately though, for now, you're going to have to sit back and be patient with us a little more. This week is going to be messy for everyone. Next week probably won't be much better. It's a busy time of year, and the gods are testing us at the moment, with the Euro, recessions and debt collectors on our doorsteps, etc. We'll get there, but like I said, you have to be patient with us. Complaining will achieve nothing unless it comes bundled with solutions. Criticism is useless without constructive commentary. It'll change nothing.

Finally, and this is a heartfelt request - when people do post blatant and unhelpful criticism, could you all just ignore it please. Pretend the post isn't there, block the user, do what you want, but just ignore it. It isn't helping us, but the flame wars are even worse. We're (the committee) all sick to death of it. Some us have called our own memberships into question many times in recent weeks. It's not good for morale. So please, I'm asking nicely, just ignore the trolls, ok? You're only giving them what they want when the respond. They're sick little people with no lives. Let them live in their own filth, eh?

Thanks,
adam

Marcus_Banned

From a total newbie point of view what the hell does this mean
'WikiWeb' ??

Dangger

As Adam mentioned, the geographically dispersed committee members have met in Cork recently and in Dublin today. The issue of enabling members to contribute in a more structered way has been thoroughly discussed and an announcement is to be made in the coming days.

The sheer volume of information we have needed access too has resulted in a lot of work on the lobbying front. The much valued pointers from users of this forum to reports and articles requires work to colate also, (but please keep them coming). This is also a major issue which has also been discussed and it too will be subject to an announcement in the coming days.

David Long
Vice Chairman
IrelandOffline

seamus

AMOI, is there any plans for another membership meeting/debate similar to the one held in July(?), where IOFFL discusses the situation again with members of the offending/affected organisations? Perhaps in February, after (if) the official launch of ADSL? Maybe show eircom that despite the obvious marketing hype they'll surround it with, they're not fooling the internet users. Debate on eircom's future plans/LLU/other DSL services/FRIACO and anything else that is being dealt with at that time. I didn't go to the first one, being overwhelmed as a newbie, but would be front row centre for another one

pete

Originally posted by Marcus
From a total newbie point of view what the hell does this mean
'WikiWeb' ??

It's secret code that loosely translates to "After all your mouthing off you didn't even bother to visit the bloody site."

Phantom XP

To Mr. donnel! Just because people can get / afford to go to dublin doesnt mean democracy is adhered to.

Why is there no polling of members on this board as all members have net access and can vote! No need to go to dublin.

Seem as lot is happenning yet and more some.

You have not been here to observe the sistuation ... so who can you comment when all threads have been deleted ...

[URL DELETED BY MODERATOR]


[Bard: THIS "Phantom XP" guy is another reincarnation of Medion and has therefore been banned again from this forum. Just in response to one of his comments "you have not been here to observe the sistuation [sic]"... well, actually- yes, odonnell_abu HAS been here to observe. He's the Chairman of the IOFFL committee - not posting a lot doesn't equal not observing... far from it, in fact.]
[/url]

Dustaz

My 2cents worth.

The .org/.net/.com thing is a really nice idea in a branding sense. Theres no need for the pages to be on different sites tho, keep it all in one site (KISS as somone said above).
The faq/wiki thingie is way too in depth for Joe Dialup, it needs a simpler one.
More news would be nice (i know it needs people to have time to update the site tho.)

A meeting would be a great idea. As was said, after the supposed launch of DSL would be good timing. If its not launched, we cant talk about that. If it is, then the price and QOS could be discussed. A LOT has happened in this area since the last meeting and seminar. A new one would be very useful especially if some telco reps could be persuaded to come?

Oh and :

Originally posted by «Bo§ton»
i do to thing the FAG sections should be on the main site, .

Best typo EVER!!!

dahamsta

Marcus, a WikiWikiWeb is a web-enabled "whiteboard" of sorts, where anyone and everyone can contribute. The IrelandOffline WikiWikiWeb was set up so ordinary members (no offense like) could help write the FAQ, and it was extremely successful until some kidiots decided it would be funny - it wasn't - to use the virtual duster and attempt to wipe out the hard work of others. Luckily, I was able to salvage the lot, but it had to be locked down after that. The job was done though, and the information now just needs to be collated and organised on the site proper. The original WikiWikiWeb is here if you want to read more.

Seamus, yes, a public meeting has been discussed, and I think we all want one as much as the membership, since the committee would like to have a full meeting on the same day. I can't give you a date, but I think January or February are quite likely.

Phactom XP, this has also been discussed, but as it happens our priority is to set up a virtual voting booth for the committee, as holding votes on our mailing list has been somewhat awkward. A voting booth for the membership was mentioned too, but it would only be used for vital matters. The first thing we need to do in this case is to reorganise the membership into a proper database, and this is in-hand - I'll be working on it myself next week.

Dustaz, I reckon I covered everything above, yeah?

adam

angryuser

Quote "Ok, I can't go into detail because we're still discussing it,
Ultimately though, for now, you're going to have to sit back and be patient with us a little more." unquote.

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Quote "Finally, and this is a heartfelt request - when people do post blatant and unhelpful criticism, could you all just ignore it please. Pretend the post isn't there, block the user, do what you want, but just ignore it. " unquote.

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Here we go again. Wait. !! Be patient. We will tell you. !! What is this kind of attitude ? Should we not be told, all the time, of things being planned, things being discussed, etc: Are we just a flock of sheep to be led along like idiots ? Why does a committee member, or members adopt such an attitude ? Why are ideas and plans and proposals not written up and published for ALL to read about as soon as they are 'thought up' or 'considered' ???
Why should they not be made open to all members to discuss ?
We dont belong to an Army, where we are only told about things when the 'officers' think fit !! We are a voluntary band of people dedicated to obtaining better internet access, is that not true ?
I see the above quoted remarks so often it makes my blood boil.
Secondly, why are some so afraid of criticism ? Will this post be considered criticism too ? It is an accepted thing in such an organisation, that if you set yourself up as a committee, and take up a lead position, then criticism goes with the job. !! If you cannot take criticism, or cannot accept variable views and comments, then you shouldnt be in the job !! Things are not set in stone, just because a committee members says something. That 'something' may not be agreeable to all members, and they therefore have a right to say so. The biggest mistake being made is in NOT keeping members 'informed' of 'everything' all the time, and on a regular basis. As soon as that is rectified, you will find relationships improve, and criticism diminish.

dahamsta

Should we not be told, all the time, of things being planned, things being discussed, etc

No. If we do that, we might as well roll up our sleeping bags now and go home, because we will never achieve anything. I mean that, I'm not exagerrating to inflate my own self-importance, I'm telling you like it is. If we release details of everything we do, IrelandOffline will be a group of 1300 people with no power, no say, no nothing. All we'll be is better informed, that's all we'll have, and that will be absolutely useless to us.

I'll give you an example: About a month and a half ago, I met a senior opposition politician to discuss the current situation. That person told me that they see it as a valid issue, but it has to be one that can be sold to the electorate, and that means it has to be sold to the party. I couldn't tell you about that - I still can't - because if it was made public, the risk of failure, of the person backing off, was too high. My conversation with that person has led to further developments, which again I can't reveal because the risks are too high. All I can reveal is that they are significant, and could very easily lead to the issues we discuss on a daily basis becoming election issues. That's not to be sneezed at, no matter how you look at it. In recent weeks, this has cooled off, but we'll ramp up again next week. Now, ask yourself, is it worth taking the risk and posting the details of this here? When nothing has actually happened yet? I'll answer for you: it's not. This is something you have to accept. I know you don't like it, and as a proponent of transparency I know how you feel, but that's how it is. I'm sorry.

Are we just a flock of sheep to be led along like idiots ?

Now, I told you the above in the hope of making you understand, because to be honest I'm utterly sick to death of these accusations. And that's what they are, accusations. Every month, every week, we have to put up with this kind of stuff. We tolerate it because we understand how you feel, but it doesn't make us any less angry at being treated in this way. So the above was the carrot, and here's the stick - don't you dare accuse us of treating you like sheep. You have no right to make that suggestion, and you offend me personally when you say it. I've never treated anyone on this board like sheep, and I never will.

Secondly, why are some so afraid of criticism ? Will this post be considered criticism too ? It is an accepted thing in such an organisation, that if you set yourself up as a committee, and take up a lead position, then criticism goes with the job. !!

First of all, I've made it abundantly clear here numerous times that criticism is welcome when it accompanyied by constructive commentary. If you, or anyone else, is not happy with what you're doing, you're free to voice that here, but if you don't offer alternatives, suggestions on how to improve, your post will be treated with the contempt it deserves. That's why the answer to your second question is 'yes', it is considered criticism, useless criticism. All you're doing is complaining. If you have a solution, post it, otherwise go and join Marcus in the Recycle Bin. I would prefer if you didn't to be honest, but that's how it is.

The answer to your third comment is more repetition - this isn't a job. A job suggests some kind of renumeration, and unless my wages are going into an account in Switzerland that I haven't been informed about yet, I remain voluntary. I do this because I hate the position we've all been put in, and because I think I can help correct it. But until such time as you pay me the ton an hour I would ordinarily be getting paid while I'm doing this, you have no right to criticise me. None.

You can take all that as you like, but I'm not looking for a flame war here, and I won't respond to more criticism unless there's valid commentary included. If it does turn into a flame war, I'll split it and dump it in the Recycle Bin, and we can continue it there.

adam

angryuser

Yes, this is one last attempt to get you to see the light. If it fails then so be it, the membership will have to decide over the coming weeks, months, years, who was right and who was wrong ?
All your words merely confirm what I have been saying all along, and the more you say the deeper you become embroiled in your own importance. For instance "YOU WILL ANSWER FOR ME" ? what arrogance is that ? Why shouldnt we be told and know about everything that is being done, said, and acted upon without having to DRAG it out of you like its some kind of state secret ?? Why the secrecy ? Your arguments as to the need for secrecy are totally invalid, and are your own arguments, not the arguments of the members !! We, the members decide, not you.
Who gave you authority to decide anything ? The RECYCLE BIN ? Your arrogance is only surpassed by your ignorance. !!
You go on about alternatives and constructive commentary like its compulsary. We are free, as members, to voice our unhappiness at anything we view as wrong. If you want constructive commentary, here it is. Change your ways, change your attitude, change the way you view your position, change the way you treat the members and the 'cause' as a whole. If you cant change, then get out, before you have us all going down YOUR road, and following YOUR ideas, which from what can be seen are the wrong ideas, and the wrong road. ??
In conclusion. If your SECRET activities turn out to be unsuccessful then that means we NEVER get to know about them at all ? So that could, and does lead to everybody thinking that NOTHING is being done. !! ?? Is that what you want ?? Isnt that self defeating ? I had no complaints, in fact was fully behind the original committee in its efforts until you came along. Now your arrogance and self importance is ruining everything, and the forum, and the 'objective' seems to have become something far less worthy of support now than it was before your arrival. ?
Finally, such talk of "Switzerland" is childish, and your statement that we have no right to criticise because your unpaid is totally muddled thinking. That kind of statement makes you ABOVE criticism. !! Are you some kind of Saint that you cannot be criticised ? Come down to earth Adam, and join the members !!

MarcusGarvey

If this was a completely transparent organisation then Eircom and everyone else would see whats going on with future plans and might try and put a stop to it.

An example of this would be political lobbying. Say for example that IrelandOffline were in talks with a junior minister about the telecommunications bill, then if this ws made public you can bet Eircom will also try and lobby the TD and interfere. A large organisation like Eircom are way more experienced with spin and lobbying tactics. Secrecy in this case is an advantage for the IrelandOffline group.

Or look at it in another hpothetical way, say IrelandOffline was in talks with another Telco who found some loophole to get cheap bandwidth to the masses. If IrelandOffline ley everyone know about this you can be sure that the other dominant telco are going to preserve their advantage by closing the loop hole.

While I dislike the "we're doing something but we can't tell you " statements there is merit in sometimes keeping things quiet.

pete

OK then Mr "angryuser" - can you give us a list of all YOUR wonderful efforts to effect change?

hmm?

What about all the politicians you've met with?
(Yes, I know you got a letter from your TD. Contacting your own local representatives is the least anyone who calls themselves a "member" of Ireland Offline should do - I'm talking actual meetings with actual ministers who have an actual say in what happens.)

OK then show us all the newspaper interviews you've done, raising public awareness?

hmm?

Right. Thought as much.

Ireland Offline isn't a members only club, or a political party, or a representative organisation - it's a lobby group. None of us paid to join, and none of us has any god given right to know what's going on. You are not "free as a member" to do anything except put up or shut up. If you don't like how they carry out their work then either come up with some viable alternatives or stop supporting their work. (Note for the hard-of-thinking: Telling the world and his mother what you plan to do is not a viable operational plan for a political lobby group. Also, please note that saying "Change what you're doing" does not qualify as constructive if an alternative is not specified).

The most that 90% of us "ordinary members" have ever done is express our support for the goals of the committee. That support buys us the right to precisely no say in how they operate - and this is how it should be. The difference between the committee and "members" like you is they are actually doing something about the situation, unlike people like you who bitch and moan from the sidelines with absolutely no concept of how a lobby group needs to operate.

Grow up for christs sake. Oh, and welcome to the real world.

murcielago

It would help me greatly in my evaluation of the arguments offered by the two sides if I did have some knowledge of the backgrounds - qualifications, experience in other areas, experience within IOFFL, and membership status in IOFFL, that is, founder member, recent member, sleeping or active committee member, etc. - of the protagonists.

Negotiating, lobbying, PR, organising etc. tend to be based on subjective judgements. A particular proposal cannot be sent to a lab or workshop for testing. Instead they remain to be tested in real life situations and this is a risky and expensive business. This highlights the need for proven knowledge and expertise on the part of those who want the authority to make important decisions.

Expertise can be acquired from a person's own relevant experience. It can also be provided by learning from the experience of others. Books and professional studies aim to give the newbie a start by providing him/her with the distilled knowledge borne of the experience of others and so on.

The time has come to set out our stall as a semi-professional organisation. By that I mean unpaid people leading the action in as professional a manner as they have learned to do in the course of their own professional and voluntary etc. activities. Enthusiastic others can join in and learn from their betters while at the same time contributing drive and energy and getting ready to take over the show in due course. Asking questions is an important role for newbies and oldies alike. Indeed knowing the question to ask can be much more important than having answers to irrelevant ones. Accordingly, I do not agree at all with the daft notion that one cannot criticise or question without offering a solution. When Eircom supplies me with a lousy telephone connection I know it and am entitled to demand rectification without having to take the engineer by the hand and show her/him how to do it.

Murcielago

pete

Originally posted by murcielago
Accordingly, I do not agree at all with the daft notion that one cannot criticise or question without offering a solution. When Eircom supplies me with a lousy telephone connection I know it and am entitled to demand rectification without having to take the engineer by the hand and show her/him how to do it.

Murcielago

There's an ever-so-slight difference between your relationship with Ireland Offline and your relationship with Eircom: You're paying Eircom to provide a service.

angryuser

Suggestion
Limit the Forum to three threads. Yes, only three. (1) Suggestions, Ideas (2) Commiitte Reports.
(3) General discussions amongst members.
No.1. should only contain ideas and suggestions. No arguments, counter proposals.Purely constructive ideas
for discussion by the committee. Anything that is not a pure suggestion or new idea should be deleted.
No.2 should be limited to access by the committte, (except for viewing of course) and should contain 'regular' updates of happenings and activities by the committe. Not only successful accomplishments, but 'everything' that they are doing and engaged upon. This thread could also contain responses, by the committee, to the suggestions and ideas of members in thread No.1.
No.3. should be a general discussion thread, where all topics of discussion "relating" to the IOFFL objectives can be aired and discussed.
The three threads should be adequately HEADED with the exact Title of that thread. This will enable members to read about new ideas, and read about committee activities, without having to troll through countless other subjects and threads which might be of no interest to them at all.
These three Threads should be allowed to continue until manageable posting proportions have been reached, and then the oldest batch of postings should be transferred to another site called perhaps "Old Suggestions" and
"Old Committe Reports" ??
At present the Forum is just a hotchpotch of writings and suggestions and arguments and links and ideas going on and on forever. The new forum would, as suggested contain just three threads only, and be easily navigated and selectable. Anyone wanting to read the "old" sections can be redirected to them with a link.
This would have the added advantage of giving potential viewers from Goverment, Eircom, Business, and so on a picture of a properly organised and adequately functional Forum and give a much better impression of IOFFL than they are likely to gain at present ? Also the committee members need only view No.3. out of interest, and can then concentrate on No.1. and No.2.
In addition the previous idea of "don't let the opposition know what were doing" is counter productive. Let them see what we are doing. Let them see that we mean business. Let them see we are lobbying parties, government, businesses, and so on. This is more likely to give an impression that "IOFFL is to be taken seriously" than the current "veil of secrecy" will engender ??
In conclusion it is to be hoped that this topic does not generate too many posts of agreement/disagreement, the important thing is for the committe to vote on its feasability/usefullness. We do not want this topic immersed in another batch of hundreds of postings, and in the process loose its objective altogether, which is exactly what happens in most other cases.

seamus

I think all the trolls, bitching and moaning blah blah blah stems from some belief that they are entitled to something. Becoming a member of IOFFL is simply registering your support. Nothing else. In fact it costs more for IOFFL to have you as member then for you to stay as one. If anything, you owe them something. You might say you have sent letters to TD's, etc, but at the end of the day, you're doing it for yourself, not for IOFFL, just like most of the rest of us. Without the organisation, there would just be 1,300 people sending letters randomly, and some with about as much intelligence, foresight and anger control as a rabid dog, as we have seen on these boards, thus would prevent us from being taken seriously. Companies, Governments etc, are far more afraid of people when we are organised, obviously, and the committee members give their time and energy to keep us organised, and what do they get? An earful of bitching about how they aren't doing enough. I'm surprised they're still as enthusiastic about the whole thing

I've said it before:- Boards.ie and IOFFL are free. Get it into your head - you are entitled to nothing here. Your freedom of speech, right to reply and right to criticise are null and void. And if you don't like it, fück off. Period. :mad:

pete

Originally posted by angryuser
In addition the previous idea of "don't let the opposition know what were doing" is counter productive. Let them see what we are doing. Let them see that we mean business. Let them see we are lobbying parties, government, businesses, and so on. This is more likely to give an impression that "IOFFL is to be taken seriously" than the current "veil of secrecy" will engender ??

I hope this isn't misinterpreted as a flame, because I'm genuinely curious to know....Do you actually read other peoples posts?

I'm just dumbfounded at the thought that someone could so completely and utterly fail to see why there must be secrecy around these activities.

pete

dahamsta

Angryuser, first of all, I'm not going to argue with you any more on the matter of full disclosure, because it's obvious we're at an impasse, and neither of us are going to change the others mind.

I personally don't believe it is in the best interest of the organisation to dislose everything we do to the membership, for the reasons stated above, and others. As a vocal proponent of transparency, that's a difficult position for me to take, but I believe that this situation, this organisation, is very different to the organisations I normally scream "the word" at (hello IEDR fans).

Unfortunately, there is very little either of us can do to resolve our differences, because when all is said and done, the committee agrees with me, and so do most of the members who have responded on this issue in the past. The best we can do is to try and be /more/ forthright with you, and we are addressing that. The suggestions for more regular updates have been discussed, both here and on the committee mailing list, and it's something we want to deal with. We will, I promise you.

In the coming weeks, the membership details will be moved to a dedicated database, and an automated request will be sent out for members to validate their membership and to provide further details for our records (which will of course be protected rigorously). Part of that will be opt-in scheduled mailings, at the users discretion - they will be able to choose weekly[1], fortnightly, monthly, "as it happens" or of course no updates. Even if there is nothing to report, we will send these mailings out.

Crucially though, our position on full disclosure will remain unchanged. We will disclose all we can to the membership, however anything we think may be damaging to our efforts will remain unsaid. We may hint at interesting items of news to keep your spirits up, but that's the best we can do. I'm sorry we can't do better, but again, that's just the way it is.

Murcielago, when we're updating the website in the coming weeks, I'll put your suggestion about membership profiles to the commitee. Although I'm not sure anyone will be particularly impressed with it, personally I have no objection to having my profile available on the website, as long as my personal contact details remain private. I've already received threatening and offensive email from some of our members, and it's not something I particularly enjoy.

Angryuser, in reference to your last post, it's quite likely that we'll go that way anyway (we've discussed it already, and Tom (DeVore) has kindly offered to set up more boards for us) but since there is also the Working Groups to consider (they will most likely require private forums too) I would personally prefer to see how that goes. A lot of this is reliant on how we migrate and redevelop the website in the coming weeks, as we will have to come to a decision on how to deal with the ever-expanding IrelandOffline.

Finally, angryuser, do you have any objection to me deleting the thread where you posted the above message? There's no point in discussing it in two places, yes? [EDIT: Never mind, threads merged, duplicates deleted.]

adam

[1] Weekly may not be a valid option, we'll see how we go.

SkepticOne

By threads do you mean the equivalent of 'topics' within a forum or do you mean that the existing IOFFL forum be sub-divided up into three sections?

I.e. would people still be able to create topics?

dahamsta

By threads do you mean the equivalent of 'topics' within a forum or do you mean that the existing IOFFL forum be sub-divided up into three sections? I.e. would people still be able to create topics?

The first would be unworkable anyway. I would guess angryuser meant separate forums, as we dicussed last week (except of course it was two then).

As I said in the thread posted by Dave, we'll probably need to set up separate forums or mailing lists for the working groups anyway, although how we'll go about that is arguable. Perhaps we could leave membership of the WG's open or summat?

I guess this should really be moved back to a separate thread now. Boy is my face red.

adam

murcielago

Pete

Payment in money is not the only reward people get out of doing things including participation in committees and providing services as officers. Otherwise we would have no voluntary organisations at all.

Officers/committees do need to get satisfaction and recognition from their efforts. Intangible benefits include the experience and knowledge gained from chairing of meetings, providing the services of secretay, treasurer, PRO etc. The next time you apply for a job you may be asked about your voluntary, professional body or community etc. activities. And it may be a bonus to be able to say you have been chairman of several voluntary groups. In most jobs there is indeed a lot of committee or task force work. But very little is taught in formal courses to help the newbie to perform successfully in this area and so on. If anybody wishes it I can return to a more considered post on this whole area of voluntary service.

Murcielago

pete

Originally posted by murcielago
Pete

Payment in money is not the only reward people get out of doing things including participation in committees and providing services as officers. Otherwise we would have no voluntary organisations at all.

And the relevance of this is what, exactly? Since you conveniently left out the point I was actually making, allow me to remind you. You said:

Accordingly, I do not agree at all with the daft notion that one cannot criticise or question without offering a solution. When Eircom supplies me with a lousy telephone connection I know it and am entitled to demand rectification without having to take the engineer by the hand and show her/him how to do it.

and i said:

There's an ever-so-slight difference between your relationship with Ireland Offline and your relationship with Eircom: You're paying Eircom to provide a service.

I was merely pointing out that your analogy was flawed. You are attempting to compare the service levels you expect from a commercial body - one which you pay to provide clearly defined services - and a voluntary lobby group which receives nothing from you. What gives you the right to "demand rectification" from Ireland Offline?

Are you suggesting that the couple of lines that Ireland Offline committee members could add to their CV's makes all the bull they have to put up with here in return for their efforts on our behalf worth it in some way?

I sincerely doubt it is.

I have no idea how the committee puts up with this sort of thing. I know I wouldn't have the patience.

murcielago

Pete

I regret I seem not to have made myself very clear at all.

The easiest point to clarify is that my absence of knowledge of the backgrounds of those people who have made dogmatic statements refers mainly to non committee members. I have gleaned background knowledge on a number of the committee such as Martin Harran, Elana Keogh, Adamasta, Bard and perhaps one or two others. Further, both Martin and Elana related their backgrounds to the work they do for Ireland Offline. Elana for example had PR/media/negotiating/voluntary affairs, competence prior to her arrival on IOFFl and it shows. Others do make claims about the right way to apply pressure and negotiate etc. I would just like to know from all such claimants the basis on which they make dogmatic statements. There are as you may have heard more ways to kill a cat than by choking him with butter. I simply don't trust dogmatics to have the mental training and flexibility to represent me on any important matter. Negotiators will often have to think on their feet and should be able to respond appropriately to anything put to them by the other side. A small point would be for committee members to identify themselves as such when giving a committee point of or support view. I know I do have them somewhere, but like many others am in a rush when browsing here.


My second point is a little more sophisticated and is clearly beyond your present state of intellectual development. I notice you did not take up my offer to submit a considered post on why some people do take on often thankless work while others will disappear at the first hint of a contrary viewpoint.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Murcielago

dahamsta

My second point is a little more sophisticated and is clearly beyond your present state of intellectual development.

Pete has been argumentative but not offensive murcielago. I would appreciate it if you acted in the same way.

adam

pete

Originally posted by murcielago
Pete

I regret I seem not to have made myself very clear at all.

The easiest point to clarify is that my absence of knowledge of the backgrounds of those people who have made dogmatic statements refers mainly to non committee members. I have gleaned background knowledge on a number of the committee such as Martin Harran, Elana Keogh, Adamasta, Bard and perhaps one or two others. Further, both Martin and Elana related their backgrounds to the work they do for Ireland Offline. Elana for example had PR/media/negotiating/voluntary affairs, competence prior to her arrival on IOFFl and it shows. Others do make claims about the right way to apply pressure and negotiate etc. I would just like to know from all such claimants the basis on which they make dogmatic statements. There are as you may have heard more ways to kill a cat than by choking him with butter. I simply don't trust dogmatics to have the mental training and flexibility to represent me on any important matter. Negotiators will often have to think on their feet and should be able to respond appropriately to anything put to them by the other side. A small point would be for committee members to identify themselves as such when giving a committee point of or support view. I know I do have them somewhere, but like many others am in a rush when browsing here.

Yes. Very good.

Now when you get down off your high horse I'd like you to go back to my earlier posts and show me where the hell I ever disagreed or contradicted with any of this????

I really thought I made myself clear earlier. Obviously I was wrong, but I don't think it necessary to restate it for someone of such obviously high intellectual capacity. Just go back and read what I said, and if it's not too much trouble maybe you could try to answer the question. The one that was asked, not the one you choose to answer, that is.

My second point is a little more sophisticated and is clearly beyond your present state of intellectual development.

Yes that's very mature. Tell you what - why don't we sack the committee right now, and then you can take over. Oh please won't you represent us? You're just what IOFFL needs right now - someone who can talk at politicians, someone capable of having a completely one sided conversation with them, someone who is at ease totally ignoring what they have to say, and hey! When that doesn't work, sure you can always call them stupid! That's sure to impress them.

No, really.

I notice you did not take up my offer to submit a considered post on why some people do take on often thankless work while others will disappear at the first hint of a contrary viewpoint.

If it was in any way relevant, I might have.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Murcielago

Don't mention it.

pete

NeilF

Originally posted by dahamsta
we'll probably need to set up separate forums or mailing lists for the working groups anyway, although how we'll go about that is arguable.

I'd say go for mailing lists because at least they can be read off-line, archived and searched locally. We are, after all, acutely aware of the cost of being on-line.

This should probably be in another thread also so if you move yours you can move mine too