Practicing what you preach...

bonkey

OK, this wont win me any friends, and I expect it will probably get deleted pretty quickly, but here we go...

A thread was just locked based on Da Freak's experience in a BK with an employee who had minimal english skills. Personally I thought he raised a valid point. Castor disagreed, and locked the thread.

Have a look at the following :

posted by Castor Troy 14 November 2001
To everyone posting on this board: state your points in a reasonable manner, and without pathetic name calling when you've run out of all other ideas.

Any posts I see from now on which resort to this sort of tactic, in passing or in general, the entire post gets deleted.

Very valid point. Which is why this was so interesting...Castors reason for locking the aforementioned thread.....

posted by Castor Troy 20 November 2001
Wow - the feeling of superiority as a pure bred English speaker must be giving you a real high right now.

Stop posting $hite like this in this forum.

Thanks for clarifying what constitutes a "reasonable" manner there Castor. Could we also have similar clarification on what are acceptable thread subjects?

jc

TwoShedsJackson

The thread was locked because it was stupid, and also has nothing to do with Humanities, Yo Mamma posts topics like that in here from time to time, and I invariably end up deleting them, or moving them to After Hours, where they belong.

I didn't delete that thread last night as I want people to see an example of what not to post about in Humanities. I'd like to see how Yo Mamma would get on working in a Burger King in Beijing before he starts slagging people off for being unable to speak English to a level he finds acceptable.

Baz_

All thread subjects are okay (except maybe the ones with swearwords in), its whats inside that counts.

It was the way in which YOMAMMA put his post not the subject itself. I don't really know a good way of putting what he said, because he went in to purchase something, which in the end he got and no matter how difficult it was he got it. The rest is a bit inflammatory as regards people not being able to speak english, I'm over in Germany at the moment and if everybody was to treat me like that over here, I think I would soon be home. The fact is that these people (and by that I mean foreigners, of which I am now) while in Ireland must have money to live and must learn English some way, and to be able to combine the two is heaven sent I'm sure.

The only other thing is that if he had been 'lucky' enough to get an Irish person to serve him, he would probably have had a bit of trouble the other way or a big tutting session in front of him, the fact is he got what he wanted no questions asked. The fact that their was communication problem was not just the fault of the person behind the counter, there are several ways to say things as I've found out over here, and what you think is a basic way could actually for a non-english speaker be very complex.

bonkey

First off, Apologies to both Yo Mamma and Da Freak for my inability to remember who wrote the original post which got locked

Secondly, thanks to Castor for taking the time to take me seriously. Honestly - I appreciate it.

Now, back to the issue at hand...

I was commenting more on the language you used than your reasoning for locking the thread. Going back to your politeness request, you ask that if you cannot make your point politely....

All you needed to say was "inappropriate - thread locked". Instead you were sarcastic, in a somewhat abusive (IMHO) manner. If you can take this approach, then all I am saying is that you cannot credibly censor others for doing the same.

In terms of the topic itself....I would have thought it was a suitable topic for Humanities, as it raises a number of interesting questions revolving arounf the issue of "should empoyers take language skills into consideration".

This question is particularly relevant to me, which is why I was interested.

I work in a German speaking town. I speak almost no German. I work in a job where I dont deal with the public, and therefore this is not a problem. If I tried getting a job in a McD's over here (we dont have BK in Switzerland), I would expect to get laughed out of the shop.

The issue touches the whole emigration thing. A lot of people say that we should welcome all immigrants to Ireland, and I tend to agree with them. However, the problem does not end at the border. Once here, they have a right to a job - same as anyone else....but there is no onus on us to give them jobs. If they are not suitable for a job, then they should not be offered it.

Conversely, the likes of BK offer such low wages that in these days of a better economy, these people are probably the best candidates which BK can get without significant wage hikes. So - is this a classical case of profit-driven corporations ignoring customers and looking at the bottom line, or is it an inevitable offspring of a burgeoning economy?

Simply put, if there is a choice of employees, surely the most suitable should be chosen - and in a job like the one discussed, languiage skills are of high priority. On the other hand, if there is a lack of choice of employees, who is to blame? While its easy to put the blame on BK, what if they were to raise prices to offer staff better wages. Would we then not comlpain about the rising costs of our burgers, not seeing why this was done?

While I would agree that it could have been better written, from my reading of it there were issues of racism, immigration and economics in there, as well as an interesting discussion on language. All of which are topics I see more often in Humanities than After Hours.

You obviously read it differently, and I respect your right as a moderator to make that decision. However, what I criticised originally was not so much the closing of the thread, but rather the tone used in doing so.

jc

gandalf

Bonkey as the other moderator on this board I would have reacted exactly as Castor did. After reading what Yo Momma posted I was very angry, while it may have been a valid topic for discussion in Humanities the way he worded his arguement was inflammatory and bordering on racist.

Gandalf.

bonkey

Originally posted by gandalf
Bonkey as the other moderator on this board I would have reacted exactly as Castor did. After reading what Yo Momma posted I was very angry, while it may have been a valid topic for discussion in Humanities the way he worded his arguement was inflammatory and bordering on racist.

I think you're still missing my point. I started by criticising the tone Castor used. I probably should never have added that comment at the end about "acceptable thread subjects", but its too late to remove it now.

So let me start afresh. Ignore completely what YoMamma wrote. Just look at Castor's reply. I would consider it abusive.

OK - the post angered you. Fine. I think we can safely assume it pissed Castor off as well. However, the tone Castor used to reply is (from my reading) in direct conflict with the "civility" policy which you guys want to introduce and enforce here.

If being angry can excuse lack of civility, can I use that as an excuse the next time I insult someone in a manner which violates your civility efforts? Exactly how much weight will that carry with you guys?

In general, you guys do a great job. I like the boards and the way its run. However, I have noticed for a while that the "civility censorship" on the boards is somewhat selective. An admin, mod, or even a "respected poster" can get away with abuse which others get slapped for...which irks me. It seems more a case of "the abuse you can use depends on how civil you normally are" as opposed to "you cannot be abusive".

Simply put, if you guys want to ask people to be civil, I think you owe it to them to maintain the expected level of civility yourselves.

jc

gandalf

Bonkey stop making a mountain out of a molehill !!!

Castor did not personally attack Yo Momma he did however tell him in a strong fashion not to post $hite like that which is exactly what that post was.

Gandalf.

TwoShedsJackson

I've re-opened the thread.

beaver

I'll put this here, as the comments I'm dealing with for the most part were made here.


Castor Troy:
The thread was locked because it was stupid

Utter nonsense. The thread is far from stupid. It dealt with something I've noticed and commented on on many occasions as I'm sure many people have. Furthermore, I think Humanities is the most suitable board available for this discussion.

Additionally, when you make a comment such as "it was stupid" some elaboration ought follow on what makes you think it's stupid.


Castor Troy:
the feeling of superiority as a pure bred English speaker...

Why the sarcasm? Of course he's superior at speaking English. I can't infer from any part of Yo Mamma's post that he believes he's superior in any other way to the BK employee. So, if he's not being superior over any other issue, how could this post be considered rascist, derogatory or inflammatory (which I assume must be your reason for considering it stupid seeing as the post does in fact deal with a valid issue)?


Gandalf:
inflammatory and bordering on racist.

The only thing in this post that I can figure that could be perceived as being slightly rascist by some people is that Yo Mamma transcribed the conversation phonetically. I guess some may consider this degrading. However, given that we are dealing with language issues in this post, I think it was perfectly suitable to create the setting of the incident.


Personally, I like good service. I frequent a variety of eateries, from the high class to the more moderate such as McDonalds or Burger King. While I would expect more in terms of quality of food, service, etc. from the more expensive establishments, there is a basic level of service I expect from anywhere I spend money. I expect politeness, comprehension and an attendance to what I want. Having said that I'm prepared to give anyone a break once on the grounds that they're having a bad day. I will not accept, however, ongoing rude or inept service. If I go to Berlin, Paris or Hongkong I accept that I will have difficulty in communicating with employees in McDonalds there. I do not expect to have to repeat my order in "childrens English" three or four times when I want a burger in Ireland. I don't know who's to blame but I assume that it is due to the economic fortune we've had in the last few years.

I don't think that the problem with these establishments is that the pay is low. It doesn't appear to be in fact. There are plenty of people working in shops for less money. I think that the issue is that there is a growing discern for those working (especially after student age) in the fast food industry or "flipping burgers" as the Americanism goes. The job status is extremely low. Furthermore, I guess, the work itself may not be all that glamorous - sh|tty uniform, greasy environment, kids running about, cleaning up sh|te, dealing with drunken people late at night...

Why don't Burger King know this? Well, I imagine they do. Why should they care, though? Case in point: Yo Mamma stuck around and waited for the Quarter Pounder even though getting it was a chore. The fact is that it's low quality, cheap, convenience food. Most people eating it, be it because they're low on funds or in a rush, won't the bothered storming out, or speaking to a superior or making any sort of point about such an incident.

So, if those are the reasons that English-speaking people are not picking up on these jobs, what's the solution?