Irish Times (Lilington): State must act on chronic broadband problem

SkepticOne

Article in this friday's Irish Times.

State must act on chronic broadband problem

Then the problems went very public. Assessments by international bodies of the Republic's broadband capabilities began to point out that we weren't exactly doing the business (in any way, shape or form). Perhaps the low point came a few weeks ago, when the OECD declared we were in really dire straits - ranked 27 out of 30 OECD countries in terms of broadband development. The only countries below us are Greece, the Slovak Republic and Turkey.

Carlin Lilington also suggest a solution:

But the State has all the fixings for transforming this situation, if it is brave enough to do what some other nations have already decided to do - put some responsibility for fair and adequate broadband infrastructure development into Government control rather than trusting private development alone.

Sweden has done this. After watching telecommunications firms drag their feet and bicker over who had rights of way for infrastructure projects, the Swedish government put a fibre network in Stockholm (www.stokab.se). This state-of-the-art network was made available on an open-access basis to all service providers.

I think there's some good ideas in this article, but will anyone listen?

mike65

The election is less than 6 months away....

Delphi91

Have to say that I thought it was a very good article.

Mike

jmcc

Karlin Lillington was the one technology journalist on whom Eircom could rely. Basically every time Eircom had some nasty event over the last few years, she would write an article in the Irish Times about how ADSL was going to happen real soon now.

Things must be fscked if even the clueless technology journalists are copping on to the bandwidth problem. Perhaps if the government hadn't squandered money on the Grand Academy [1] AKA The MLE and had instead worked on providing broadband, Ireland's economy would have a stronger chance.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

Originally posted by SkepticOne

State must act on chronic broadband problemKarlin Lilington also suggest a solution:I think there's some good ideas in this article, but will anyone listen?

Read it again and see how typically clueless the solution suggested is.

The problem in Ireland is not fibre optic nets. It is simply that Eircom is still clinging on to the control of the last mile even though the EU has deregulated it. It would be feasible for the holders of Microwave licences to implement RF nets to bypass this but the incumbents are making too much money to change. Always-On internet is the biggest threat that these telcos face. It will rip the heart out of their phone business if people can use the internet to communicate with voice quality audio. Once that happens, VOIP (Voice Over IP) software and setups will effectively nuke a major segment of the telco's revenue stream.

Regards...jmcc

Fergus

Well, the first half does a good job pointing out how rediculous things have got.

But yeah.. It seems odd to be saying the holdups are due to incomplete internetworking within the broadband routes. Granted there are parts where more of it needs to be put in place, but speaking in terms of Dublin where I am, the place would appear to be drowning in optical circuits, at least around the city.

Yet, you still only have the option of getting a private leased circuit in order to connect to it.

jmcc is more on the money I would think.. the main problem is the incumbent telcos and their existing products and costs. In these folks' eyes, making broadband available to everyone comes a poor second to maximizing their profits.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

I read it in the biz section last night and was actually suprised at how forthright she was. There is generally too much cuddling up to the fantasy world of e-commerce and the internet that some journalists in Ireland think we have!

More gauntlet throwing like this is needed. Well done Karlin:)

Chaos-Engine

Only one way to make this on the agenda in the nexxt election.... Get writing(letters not email) to all the political parties. IF we want this we got to make sure they know we want it.... "I'd vote for u if u would provide an broadband infrastructure for EVERYONE"

ekehoe

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
Only one way to make this on the agenda in the nexxt election.... Get writing(letters not email) to all the political parties. IF we want this we got to make sure they know we want it.... "I'd vote for u if u would provide an broadband infrastructure for EVERYONE"

Chaos has a really good point here. Not all pols look at (or even understand) email, but physical letters from consituents they do get. So, how hard is it to say to them "The state of Internet access in Ireland is a joke. I fully support you, but the change is needed where phone lines are not in the control of one company who is only looking at profits instead of the big picture" or whatever. We're getting some great coverage, now would be the time to get some letters in the mail.

And please, don't add any white powder to the envelopes.... :-)

E

MS

Have to totally agree with Chaos-Engine and E on this one. Maby we could make it our next line of attack ? Now that the Blackout (which i see as been a totall success ) is almost over I am sure there are a huge amount more of people that understand what we are all about and are willing to and ready to help.

IOFFL 1 Eircom 0 Lets go for a hat trick :P



MS

Glad

anyone here in west dublin, i.e berties area. he since his recent beating he cant do enough for us. im sure if he started getting hasseled he would raise it in the dall, dont forget to mention ioffl

cmkrnl

Originally posted by jmcc


The problem in Ireland is not fibre optic nets. It is simply that Eircom is still clinging on to the control of the last mile even though the EU has deregulated it.

John long time no see :-)

That sums it up really, given that all irish govts are in hock in one way or another to producer interests. Dont expect action on it anytime soon until either

1. An Irish solution to Irish problem appears. This in the past has given the Irish Consumer such wonders as VRT. Wonderful Taxi Services. Pubs not being able to open within a mile of another one without shutting one down somewhere else, & pharmacy owners being able to veto the opening of 'competition' in towns 25 miles away. RGDATA being able to veto a Costco outlet opening in Dublin etc etc etc.

2. The EU gets its big stick out as a consequence of pressure from elsewhere within the EU & forces the issue. The govt can than turn round to the producer interests and say "ah Jaysus lads we did try, but the big nasty EU is bullying us". This of course leads to sad spectacles such as a Govt minister at the beck & call of the IFA going to the WTC conference in Doha last week to defend utterly indefensible agricultural subsidies.

Always-On internet is the biggest threat that these telcos face. It will rip the heart out of their phone business if people can use the internet to communicate with voice quality audio. Once that happens, VOIP (Voice Over IP) software and setups will effectively nuke a major segment of the telco's revenue stream.

Regards...jmcc

Thats the reason why Eircom & BT here sat on & obfuscated the deployment of ISDN for years after the rest of the world, because with DoD routers it would tear their overpriced low end leased lines business a new cornchute. Today the price of an E1 circuit to the net from Eircom in the Dublin is a complete F*cking disgrace when compared with an equivalent in other metropolitan areas across europe.

I remember listening to a conversation a long time ago where someone demonstrated at length the attempts a certain Telco allegedly made to stop a large company trunking calls from Dublin to Limerick over their leased lines rather than through the public network. Given the volume of calls the savings for the company in
question were substantial. Allegedly the lawyers had to be brought out to make the telco in question abide by its contractual obligations.


greg

jmcc

Originally posted by cmkrnl


John long time no see :-)

Yep Greg. Would you believe that there are some people on boards.ie who think that I don't exist.

Thats the reason why Eircom & BT here sat on & obfuscated the deployment of ISDN for years after the rest of the world, because with DoD routers it would tear their overpriced low end leased lines business a new cornchute. Today the price of an E1 circuit to the net from Eircom in the Dublin is a complete F*cking disgrace when compared with an equivalent in other metropolitan areas across europe.
[/B]

And of course this is why Eircom (then Telecom Eireann) were pushing ISDN as a file transfer mechanism.

I think that the idea of free phonecalls would effectively be the catalyst for making wireless WANs a common thing. Which ever telco offers them deals on bandwidth could more than recoup the expenditure by getting the inter area phone traffic from the WLAN. It is a fairly elementary bit of thinking. Apparently the computer ownership in some areas is as high as 29% so these areas would be the primary targets for this kind of thing. But that 29% would probably represent the highest level of phone use for the telco. The alternative for the telco would be to target these high usage clusters for ADSL - this is what Eircom seems to be planning.

Regards...jmcc

dahamsta

Karlin was on the right track in her last article, when she as much as challenged IO to admit that the government should have some involvement in the capital expenditure programme for the rollout of new services. Of course, we didn't need to admit anything, since we've - well, at least I've - believed that all along. She kinda lost the plot this time though. "Alternative government-funded infrastructures" is the latest fad out there in loolah tech journo fairyworld, and Karlin swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Pity really, she should know better.

adam

dahamsta

More importantly though, what the hell was I doing up at eight in the morning?

adam

SkepticOne

Originally posted by jmcc
The alternative for the telco would be to target these high usage clusters for ADSL - this is what Eircom seems to be planning.

I think what they would like for ADSL is for the the whole damn thing to go away. They are doing very well with ISDN and leased lines. They are expensive to provide but, by God, the rubes are willing to pay through the nose.

dahamsta

I think what they would like for ADSL is for the the whole damn thing to go away. They are doing very well with ISDN and leased lines. They are expensive to provide but, by God, the rubes are willing to pay through the nose.

I'm not so sure about that any more. Think about it - if you have a leased line, you're either a large SME or a BIG business, right? Are you going to drop the leased line? No. It's in, it's working, screw it. If you're thinking about getting a leased line, well, that's different, but what about QoS (Quality of Service)? If you need QoS, you need a leased line, screw it again.

And how about ISDN? Sure, it's making them tons of wedge at the moment, but look at the current situation - the Regulator is going to beat Eircom down on bitstream, and she's probably going to come out of court on LLU quite well too. The tide is rising against Eircom, there's absolutely no sympathy out there for them any more.

Big business? It's their right to charge what they want? It's unfair to treat them this way? Horseputty, they have a monopoly. Monopoly's are bad, fullstop, draw a line under it. Tough noddy's Eircom, you wanted it, you got it.

Nah, if I was Eircom, I'd be seriously thinking of banging DSL out there just as fast as I could right now. I'd probably do the same for flat-rate, for the reasons outlined in the Analysys report, although of course I'd want to do it all on my terms (ain't gonna happen boys).

Course, I ain't Eircom. If I was, I'd have done it five years ago. "Everything In One Pipe[TM]" from Beecher Monopolies. "Screw NTL[TM]" would be the corporate catchphrase.

Heh, Eircom are dumbasses.

adam

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta Karlin was on the right track in her last article, when she as much as challenged IO to admit that the government should have some involvement in the capital expenditure programme for the rollout of new services.

My worry is that State funds will simply be thrown at the problem. When Eircom pulled out of a regional xDSL programme earlier this year, there were immediate calls for Eircom to be given more money.

Eircom are now in a position to take advantage of their own previous lack of investment. "If you want ADSL it will cost you".

The government must have the option of going outside Eircom to get things done in order to avoid extortion.

I don't agree with Carlin Lilington, though. State funding of fibre nets is simply subsidising supply to a monopoly. Eircom will save money from not having to invest themselves and charge the end user whatever the market will bear.

In my view there needs to be more emphasis put on wireless ISPs in rural areas and cable companies in urban areas. There is some money available but this may need to be increased. Genuine infrastructural competition would take a lot of the presure off the regulator.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta I'm not so sure about that any more. Think about it - if you have a leased line, you're either a large SME or a BIG business, right? Are you going to drop the leased line? No. It's in, it's working, screw it. If you're thinking about getting a leased line, well, that's different, but what about QoS (Quality of Service)? If you need QoS, you need a leased line, screw it again.

I think there's a bit of crossover between ADSL and leased lines in the Irish context. I know of a couple of relatively small companies that have leased lines for their web server. As a side benefit they also get always on connectivity for their office. If you were in the US or the other place, Europe, you could save a fortune by co-locating the web server and getting ADSL for the office. The real reason for the leased line, of course, is the office connectivity but the web server is used to justify the cost with the management.

And how about ISDN? Sure, it's making them tons of wedge at the moment, but look at the current situation - the Regulator is going to beat Eircom down on bitstream, and she's probably going to come out of court on LLU quite well too.

Of course Eircom are going to lose in the end. I think even they realise this. But until that time, it's milk ISDN for all it's worth. The ideal thing from their point of view would be for ADSL to quietly go away so they can continue to milk ISDN into the future.

The tide is rising against Eircom, there's absolutely no sympathy out there for them any more.

That is good news although Eircom will continue to give us the "poor mouth" for some time to come.

Big business? It's their right to charge what they want? It's unfair to treat them this way? Horseputty, they have a monopoly. Monopoly's are bad, fullstop, draw a line under it. Tough noddy's Eircom, you wanted it, you got it.

Yes. And Valentia bought into Eircom at a time when it was understood that Eircom have a duty to share their infrastructure in certain ways. Obstruction is unacceptable. If they don't like it they should have bought someone else's infrastructure.

Nah, if I was Eircom, I'd be seriously thinking of banging DSL out there just as fast as I could right now. I'd probably do the same for flat-rate, for the reasons outlined in the Analysys report, although of course I'd want to do it all on my terms (ain't gonna happen boys).

I agree that DSL and FRIACO is good for both Eircom and if it needs strict regulation to enforce it, then so be it .

jmcc

Originally posted by dahamsta
She kinda lost the plot this time though. "Alternative government-funded infrastructures" is the latest fad out there in loolah tech journo fairyworld, and Karlin swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Pity really, she should know better.

That is the problem with technology journalists Adam. It only takes a press release to put them on the wrong track. Karlin is on far stronger ground when doing puff-pieces about various industry people and companies. The second she goes into the technology aspect she loses her way. This is why Eircom used her to get all those ADSL stories in the Irish Times.

Regards...jmcc

dahamsta

My worry is that State funds will simply be thrown at the problem.

Unfortunately, I guess it's up to us to see that they aren't. Take for example:

When Eircom pulled out of a regional xDSL programme earlier this year, there were immediate calls for Eircom to be given more money.

I'm not sure which screw-up (among many) we're talking about here, but it's my opinion that the government have completely lost sight of the big picture. As was pointed out yesterday, as soon as the subject of comms comes up, they start wittering on about getting bandwidth to the regions, like bloody broken records. Well, you and I and everyone here knows that that's not the problem. There's miles of fibre going all over the country, but it's sitting there idle. If they want to roll out bandwidth to the regions, they shouldn't be talking about laying new fibre, they should be talking about lighting up the fibre we have.

Eircom are now in a position to take advantage of their own previous lack of investment. "If you want ADSL it will cost you".

Again though, it's up to us to ensure they don't make that mistake. We have to watch the newspapers and Oireachtas Report and as soon as we spot them going down that track again we have to say: "Hey, what the hell are you talking about?" It's pretty sad that we have to do that. Who the hell are their advisors? Or do I need to ask?

The government must have the option of going outside Eircom to get things done in order to avoid extortion.

I don't agree. Like I said in my previous post - which admittedly you hadn't seen yet - Eircom hold the monopoly on fixed lines in Ireland, and that's something they have to deal with. The key isn't in building, or even conceptualising alternative networks, it's in enacting legislation that will control Eircom's monopoly. If Eircom don't like that, well, they'd better give the network back. They knew what they were getting into, and they've had their fun. Now the game is over.

I don't agree with Carlin Lilington, though. State funding of fibre nets is simply subsidising supply to a monopoly. Eircom will save money from not having to invest themselves and charge the end user whatever the market will bear. In my view there needs to be more emphasis put on wireless ISPs in rural areas and cable companies in urban areas. There is some money available but this may need to be increased. Genuine infrastructural competition would take a lot of the presure off the regulator.

I agree with the first bit, but not the second. Wireless should be seen as an alternative, or just another option. We shouldn't be concentrating on any one option, we should be concentrating on them all, in order of importance. They are: FRIACO, DSL, Cable, Wireless, Everything Else. (Actually, Cable should be before DSL, because it's more cost-effective in the long run, but the cable market is in a bad way in Ireland.)

I do agree that we (the country) need to invest though. And as you rightly point out, although some money has to be ploughed into fibre, we have to remember all that fibre already out there. But like I said, the way forward in Ireland isn't picking a technology and pushing it, it's pushing all of them, with a fine mix of incentive and punishment - the trusty old carrot and stick.

Eircom - and everybody else for that matter - has to be encouraged to roll out new products and services quickly and efficiently, and to do that, no matter how much we dislike the idea, we have to invest. We have to take the FRIACO viability question out of the equation by investing in the infrastructure. And we have to push broadband by subsidising the equipment on the user side - the DSL modems.

By doing the first, you're investing in a national asset, even if it does belong to Eircom, and you're regaining some political control. By doing the second, you're lowering the initial investment of switching to broadband, and we have to do that so we don't have to invest too much in the infrastructure. And of course all this is reliant on terms and conditions, most notably targets.

And if they don't meet the targets, then you take out the big stick, and you beat them with it. Hard.

adam

SkepticOne

I'll sum up my thoughts on this. I just want to get stuff down. I am generally agreeing with a lot of the previous posters here.

What needs to change:

1. Politicians need to get over regional issues for a moment and recognise that a larger digital divide is building up between us and other developed countries.
2. Politicians should listen to and implement the reccommendations of advisory groups such as the Telecommunications Advisory Board and the Information Society Commission
4. A small country cannot rely on private sector competition to sort out all problems. Where exclusive franchises are issued, targets should be imposed that are in the public interest and not simply in the interest of the franchise holder.
5. Public projects, if attempted, should only be done after monopoly local loop issues have been sorted out -- you are simply subsidising supply to a monopoly. There is no incentive for the monopoly to pass on savings.
6. Monopoly local loop issues can be sorted out by either a) Investing in alternative local loop services (e.g. cable internet, wireless ISPs etc.) or b) Proactive and strict regulation of the monopoly to prevent abuse. This is the cheaper option but requires political change (e.g. the Telecommunications Bill).
7. When free competition is working, then investment in public access fibre rings or regional broadband links may be considered.

That is the view of this self-appointed armchair expert.