What exactly has Ireland Offline accompolished.

logic1

As per topic:

What exactly has Ireland Offline accompolished since it's conception.

Can anyone tell me?

.logic.

NeilF

www.irelandoffline.com

This (award-winning) web site contains a great deal of information about our campaign - including the story so far and plans for the future.

seamus

lol, sometimes the answers are right under your nose logic.

logic1

Yeah thing is the site doesn't provide alot of info at all.

Maybe I can't find it but I'd be more than happy for a direct link to the "Stuff accomplished" page.

.logic.

muchos_bongo

I too would be interested in this.

NeilF

NeilF's guide on how to find out what IrelandOffline have accomplished

1. Go to www.irelandoffline.com

2. Click on "News & Info"

3. Decide whether you want to read articles about our meetings, media articles or other articles.

Guide ends.

logic1

In reply no I don't want to read about your meetings and events, or be directed towards third party media articles.

I want it laid out for me like i'm 12 years old..

What have Ireland Offline accompolished. Solid goals not meetings with <insert name here>.

What of the goals have been accompolished?

.logic.

tHE vAGGABOND

if you read about you will see that 'the leaders' are all busy with real life..

now maybe that means that they are too busy to be leaders, maybe it does not, but there are no 'other' leaders jumping up and down and making themselves visable - to me at any rate

if you wanna do something, and make a difference, then propose something and dont just sit there and throw stones like a 5 year old

logic1

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
if you read about you will see that 'the leaders' are all busy with real life..

now maybe that means that they are too busy to be leaders, maybe it does not, but there are no 'other' leaders jumping up and down and making themselves visable - to me at any rate

if you wanna do something, and make a difference, then propose something and dont just sit there and throw stones like a 5 year old

Hey Vagga why not step down off your high horse and we'll pretend your not a total retard. I simply asked what Ireland Offline has accompolished.

I haven't implied that they haven't accompolished anything I'm simply making a point that from an outsiders perspective the goals they have achieved aren't visible at all. I haven't had time to follow the whole debate and there's no place I can find thatshows exactly what's been achieved to date.

So when your finished picking up posts the wrong way and thinking with the rock you call a brain maybe you can put aside five minutes out of your busy day to tell us all what has been accomplished.

If not sit down and shut up.

.logic.

tHE vAGGABOND

Being offensive is not a good way to get positive attention, let alone credibility..

But to be simple, 'Rome was not built in a day' - decades of mismanagement and billion dollar take over deals are not going to be undone or rocked by a small group in a short few months, let alone a small group with no full time staff…

Things take time

logic1

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
Being offensive is not a good way to get positive attention

dont just sit there and throw stones like a 5 year old

I believe your statement provoked my response.

let alone credibility..

I don't need credibility.

But to be simple, 'Rome was not built in a day' - decades of mismanagement and billion dollar take over deals are not going to be undone or rocked by a small group in a short few months, let alone a small group with no full time staff…

Things take time

Either A.) You don't have a clue as to what Ireland Offline has achieved.

or B.) It hasn't achieved anything.

Which is it?

.logic.

dobdobdo

These are the objectives of IerlandOFFLine.co
Objectives

Universal flat rate (unmetered) access to the internet for all users.
Not Yet

Complete Local Loop Unbundling (LLU) by Eircom.
Not Yet

Universal access to broadband services for all users. Not Yet

Their strategy for achieving these objectives is:


Making the general public aware of the reality that the level of internet access development in Ireland is already far behind other countries and is continuing to lose ground.
As far as I'm aware all this has and is taking place

Lobbying the government to provide the appropriate legislative and economic environment to encourage development to move forward much more rapidly.
As far as I'm aware all this has and is taking place

Pressurising the ODTR to accelerate implementation of the regulations and timetables already set out by them.
encouraging the ISP's to implement packages that will make internet access more available to more people.
As far as I'm aware all this has and is taking place

As a accomplishing anything?
I would consider getting ppl to raise the FIASCO that we are in regarding Broadband access as a start?

Can the moderators please stop with the name calling and flaming/trolling?

---

logic1

Excellant that's all that was needed.

Tx for the reply.

Can the moderators please stop with the name calling and flaming/trolling?

No.

.logic.

tHE vAGGABOND

No:p

Boston

despite what some may think there are two mods here Bard and dahamsta. To them its doesnt matter what it says under you name

dahamsta

Yeah! I don't come into your forums and fla... uh... never mind...



adam

MS

Nice 'Self Control' there Adam
WTG mate


MS

PS If iw was me? ..... hmmmmmmmmm hehehehe

smokin' an'chewin' man

Originally posted by logic1
In reply no I don't want to read about your meetings and events, or be directed towards third party media articles.

I want it laid out for me like i'm 12 years old..

What have Ireland Offline accompolished. Solid goals not meetings with <insert name here>.

What of the goals have been accompolished?

.logic.

Sadly now you know. Not a lot is the answer. What you've also discovered is i) that the people in control of the discussions don't like people who ask awkward questions - they like to control what people post here and ii) the people who took control of the thing have run out of ideas and the drive to carry anything through, and are too busy with their lives to get anything done. That is except for their wonderful 'blackout' idea that should really set the media alight when it happens...... yeah right ...

Saint

Originally posted by smokin' an'chewin' man


Sadly now you know. Not a lot is the answer. What you've also discovered is i) that the people in control of the discussions don't like people who ask awkward questions - they like to control what people post here and ii) the people who took control of the thing have run out of ideas and the drive to carry anything through, and are too busy with their lives to get anything done. That is except for their wonderful 'blackout' idea that should really set the media alight when it happens...... yeah right ...

All you people bitched and moaned when it was me posting the stuff you didnt want to hear. reported me to devore more then once. Moderators deleting every other post.
it was then, not now that you should have spoken up.
At least i could get abite of life and disscussion into this place.
you have what you wanted now. i wonder if you like it

Supercell

Impressed Adam, logic1, suprised at you, Adam showed incredible restraint I don't come into your forums and fla...

Its a fair point imho.

Kudo's to Adam, respect.

ekehoe

Originally posted by smokin' an'chewin' man


Sadly now you know. Not a lot is the answer. What you've also discovered is i) that the people in control of the discussions don't like people who ask awkward questions - they like to control what people post here and ii) the people who took control of the thing have run out of ideas and the drive to carry anything through, and are too busy with their lives to get anything done. That is except for their wonderful 'blackout' idea that should really set the media alight when it happens...... yeah right ...

Wow...I'm sorry that we're busy with our lives right now, but that is what pays the bills. None of us have ever gotten a dime for what we're doing as IrelandOffline, but I know we've each spent quite a bit.

We are all still working on IrelandOffline things. Just because they aren't all posted on here doesn't mean things aren't happening in the background. We have had meetings, I've gotten calls from the media asking for our reaction to things that have come up, and they wouldn't be doing that if we hadn't made an impact.

I'm sorry that you feel that we're just sitting back and not doing much. We have opened a dialogue with the ODTR, Eircom and Esat to the point that I can send an email to someone at each company, and get a speedy reply. I don't know many other folks who can say that right now.

As for the Blackout, what's the beef? We're doing something that was suggested by the members, not the committee, and was eagerly taken up by most people, from what I've seen. We're a big group of people now, and all the input is valuable. At least we're doing something, contrary to your beliefs.

Right now the ODTR and Eircom are in a little pissing match, and not much can happen until after the High Court decides. We can try talking to the EU, but I (being due to give birth in 6 weeks) can't fly to Brussels, and everyone else here has a job.

I can take criticism (barely :-) ), and I listen to what everyone says. But make sure you have all the facts before jumping on us. We're ramping up again after a silence, and I know that we'll get some great media coverage from the Blackout.

Are you going to participate in the Blackout, or just stay on here with your comments? The more who stay off that day, the better for all....

E

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Originally posted by ekehoe

Right now the ODTR and Eircom are in a little pissing match, and not much can happen until after the High Court decides. We can try talking to the EU, but I (being due to give birth in 6 weeks) can't fly to Brussels, and everyone else here has a job.
E

Hi Elana,
nice to see you back on the boards:)

We were discussing this EU option on this thread a few days back....
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34347

Since the other day I researched it a little further, but unfortunately what is said there stands:( Because the ODTR's powers are so week re: enforcement, there is very little scope of bringing €ircom to Europe in relation to breaches re: LLU or Pricing. The only realistic line of litigation is a more contrived, somewhat theoretical writ against the Irish State for non-enforcement of EU driectives [ possibly just the little fiendish inventive lawyer in me speaking but heck its gettting desparate:) ]
Also, the pursuit of relief from the European Judiciary is (putting it mildly) expensive. Maybe we need to recruit some good counsel who's willing to work Pro Bono

As you said, everything is up in the air until December and the proceedings in the High Court. For now its just a waiting game:(


BTW, Gluck w/ the imminent family addition:)

Dustaz

Originally posted by smokin' an'chewin' man


Sadly now you know. Not a lot is the answer. What you've also discovered is i) that the people in control of the discussions don't like people who ask awkward questions - they like to control what people post here and ii) the people who took control of the thing have run out of ideas and the drive to carry anything through, and are too busy with their lives to get anything done. That is except for their wonderful 'blackout' idea that should really set the media alight when it happens...... yeah right ...

Yes, lets all join Smokin An Chewin Mans organisation. They have acheieved,,,er nothing, but they AIM TO GET THINGS DONE!

Please, if your only here to say "Weh, i dont have flat rate and ioffl promised to get it for me" You really may as well leave now and just hassle your parents.

hmmm

Originally posted by 80project

The only realistic line of litigation is a more contrived, somewhat theoretical writ against the Irish State for non-enforcement of EU

Isn't it normally the European Commission that brings actions like these. I believe I read somewhere that Matti whatsisname was talking about doing that anyway, will just have to write him more letters to make sure he makes the correct decision

logic1

Originally posted by Longfield
Impressed Adam, logic1, suprised at you,

Kudo's to Adam, respect.

Surprised at me? Who are you and why are you surprised at me?

Because I came into a forum and asked a straight forward question?

Adam showed incredible restraint
I don't come into your forums and fla..

Its a fair point imho.

It's a fair point? He doesn't come into our forums and "ask questions" oh no.....

:rolleyes:

.logic.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Originally posted by hmmm


Isn't it normally the European Commission that brings actions like these.

Yep Your right. If you had read the link posted you would have read the exact details as such....

One possible legal angle (although a bit contrived) could be pursued....

Presuming that the EU are unhappy about the progress in a variety of EU legislation implementation, they could issue an A.226 Enforcement Action. This as one can imagine, would create a further legal obligation on the state to expedite logjams in areas of LLU and competition law.

Then, presuming there is still no action by the Govt. to implement these specifications (including forcing €ircom to comply through adequate national legislation), we (the citizens) could apply to as non-privelged applicants[A.230(4)] to force the Commission to force Ireland to comply. Now there are various hurdles to overcome to be classified as a non-privelged applicants-ie.....
-the issue is directed to the applicant
-is of direct interest and indivdual concern
or **NB**a decision addressed to another person which is of direct and indivdual concern to the applicant.

The question thus is... Is non-compliance by €ircom of direct and indivdual concen to us, the citizens??

As seen it would be lobbying the EU to enforce A.226 upon Ireland, not suin Ireland directkly:)

dahamsta

Longfield, I don't think logic was being overtly malicious. It came across like that, but I'm not sure he meant any harm by it. Logic?

In answer to you question logic, IrelandOffline hasn't accomplished its true goal of "affordable internet access for all", but that's not going to happen overnight. Maybe we should have set our sights lower, but hell, that's the ultimate target. I think that the meetings, the seminar, and the result of that - education - is an accomplishment though. It's a start. It's better than nothing.

Like I said in another thread, the politician I talked to genuinely didn't realise there was a problem, at least the problem we're talking about here. He thought the problem was ostensibly with bringing fibre to the regions, and that seems to be a widely-held belief in government. Now he knows. I think that's progress.

On the subject of the blackout, I can understand people's concerns, but I honestly think it's the wrong way to view it. Even if the end result of the blackout is just educating a half dozen people about the problem, I will view it as a success. There's a lot of unintentional ignorance out there. People aren't aware of what's available, or more accurately, what should be available. People aren't aware that their phone bills aren't just expensive, they're completely at odds with what they should be.

We are working. Things are happening. They're just happening slowly. I'll say it again - it's not going to happen overnight. We're not miracle workers. The problems we're faced with now have been there for years. It's going to take time. Please, be patient with us. Let us do our work. Be positive.

adam

dahamsta

Bugger, forgot...

With regard to the EU, you probably already know this, but the EU is already talking about fining Ireland for non-compliance with its directive on unbundling. A report will apparently be filed in mid-November.

If want to file a personal complaint with the EU, the person responsible for this matter is Peter Rodford - this is who Erkii Liikanen referred me to. I'm emailing him a follow-up this afternoon. You'll find his contact details on the Europa website (I'm not posting them here).

adam

logic1

Originally posted by dahamsta
Longfield, I don't think logic was being overtly malicious. It came across like that, but I'm not sure he meant any harm by it. Logic?

Indeed. Maybe my wording could have been put a little different but it was simply a genuine request for a heads up on the current and past state of Ireland offline.

In answer to you question logic, IrelandOffline hasn't accomplished its true goal of "affordable internet access for all", but that's not going to happen overnight. Maybe we should have set our sights lower, but hell, that's the ultimate target. I think that the meetings, the seminar, and the result of that - education - is an accomplishment though. It's a start. It's better than nothing.

Like I said in another thread, the politician I talked to genuinely didn't realise there was a problem, at least the problem we're talking about here. He thought the problem was ostensibly with bringing fibre to the regions, and that seems to be a widely-held belief in government. Now he knows. I think that's progress.

On the subject of the blackout, I can understand people's concerns, but I honestly think it's the wrong way to view it. Even if the end result of the blackout is just educating a half dozen people about the problem, I will view it as a success. There's a lot of unintentional ignorance out there. People aren't aware of what's available, or more accurately, what should be available. People aren't aware that their phone bills aren't just expensive, they're completely at odds with what they should be.

We are working. Things are happening. They're just happening slowly. I'll say it again - it's not going to happen overnight. We're not miracle workers. The problems we're faced with now have been there for years. It's going to take time. Please, be patient with us. Let us do our work. Be positive.

adam

Thanks for that.

.logic.

JaneDoe

Just who are the EU going to fine and about what?

Someone has to ask for the loop to be unbundled before eircom have to do it.

And with the current telecoms market sentiment who's done that?
Or who will.

Boston

Jane, its been discussed about a millions times already.
Now I could start talking about its not good business policy to commit to something that you have no idea how much it will cost, buy im not.

Ill only say, that both Esat and Colt telecom have requested full LLU, in fact esat have commented that they expect it by March next year in order to roll out there SDSL service outside Dublin,

dahamsta

Just who are the EU going to fine and about what?

Ireland. For non-compliance with their LLU directive. Yes, you're right, in regulatory terms the local loop has been unbundled, but physically it hasn't. I'm not sure if the directive caters for that, but the argument that has been unbundled is a political viewpoint. In real terms, it hasn't.

Someone has to ask for the loop to be unbundled before eircom have to do it.

Someone has.

And with the current telecoms market sentiment who's done that? Or who will.

The big boys who can afford it. Local loop unbundling is expensive, but it's not *that* expensive.

adam

smokin' an'chewin' man

Originally posted by ekehoe

Wow...I'm sorry that we're busy with our lives right now, but that is what pays the bills. None of us have ever gotten a dime for what we're doing as IrelandOffline, but I know we've each spent quite a bit.


This is not a personal thing - but surely if people are too busy then other people need to be brought in ? Isn't that the way an activist pressure group has to work ? though how people can come on board is a mystery without the public having an opportunity to attend public meetings. There are people out there who would be enthusiastic I am sure but not for a 'virtual' campaign that it is looking more and more like.


We are all still working on IrelandOffline things. Just because they aren't all posted on here doesn't mean things aren't happening in the background. We have had meetings, I've gotten calls from the media asking for our reaction to things that have come up, and they wouldn't be doing that if we hadn't made an impact.

I'm sorry that you feel that we're just sitting back and not doing much. We have opened a dialogue with the ODTR, Eircom and Esat to the point that I can send an email to someone at each company, and get a speedy reply. I don't know many other folks who can say that right now.


Well perhaps if people knew more about what is going on then progress and activity would not seem so sparce. What have individual politicans said in response ? what have ODTR and Eircom had to say in these correspondences ? What has the minister to say these days ? Why the reluctance ?


As for the Blackout, what's the beef? We're doing something that was suggested by the members, not the committee, and was eagerly taken up by most people, from what I've seen. We're a big group of people now, and all the input is valuable. At least we're doing something, contrary to your beliefs.


Like the verry few others that have the balls to defy the enforcers on the board, I am just calling it like it looks. A blackout as an idea isn't so bad, but as the ONLY idea ? a big let down after all the plans at the start.


Right now the ODTR and Eircom are in a little pissing match, and not much can happen until after the High Court decides. We can try talking to the EU, but I (being due to give birth in 6 weeks) can't fly to Brussels, and everyone else here has a job.


How come there has been no public meetings in the big smoke or around the country ? Yes a seminar, which was brilliant. But then nothing. It appears to have descended to a sole existance of this board discussion which has stagnated. How can people not into boards get involved ? Why no public meetings ? weren't these planned and discussed at the beginning ? How can people who ARE willing to do stuff be found if the sole existance of this campaign is in virtual space ?


I can take criticism (barely :-) ), and I listen to what everyone says. But make sure you have all the facts before jumping on us. We're ramping up again after a silence, and I know that we'll get some great media coverage from the Blackout.


Again there is no personal criticism being tossed around here. Facts ? what acts ? there are none. that's the trouble. How many months is it since the original meeting and the seminar ? NO other opportunity for people anywhere to meet. It's looking more and more like the bunch of net nerds that we were afraid we would be seen for.
People I am in touch with are constantly asking about standard letters for politicians, fact sheets on BB and flat rate issues yet there is almost nothing yet available on the 3 sites after all these months.


Are you going to participate in the Blackout, or just stay on here with your comments? The more who stay off that day, the better for all....


I do not believe for one minute that that statement makes any sense whatsoever. As part of a campaign perhaps, but as the sole public activity of a promising pressure group it is too little and becoming too late.

This whole thing needs a shot in the arm and there is only one thing that can do that - public meetings.

Dangger

The whole thing needs a shot int the arm

Here here, and what has happened outside of the IOFFL loop in the mean time? Ands lets be honest after our card was played we allowed ample time to let the other parties play a hand.

Well after the seminar our members were up to speed and the parties involved were brought into the firing line.

The ODTR have gone to court with Eircom, the court date is set, Esat and the rest are to be dragged in too. Yahoo more litigation.

Eircom shot themselves in the foot (on purpose) with the DSL pricing (no surprise there).

The global telcoms slump has been a god send to Eircom to step up the spiel on their foot dragging tactics, heaven forbid them cutting their revenue to provide us all with rates in line with the rest of Europe for Internet access.

Mary Harney has continued the Irish shananigans by granting ridiculous special favours to O'Reilly allowing Eircom to change hands, incurring almost £3 billion in debt overnight! The government has bent over backwards to amend tax laws for O'Reilly also (thanks Charlie).

And now IrelandOffline have decided to step up to the plate once more armed with more support and bolstored by contiunued political interest. Yes its been a while since the seminar, and yes a lot has happened in the interim amongst the other parties. We supplied the rope. The farce continues. Did you know the Networked Economy:Infrastructure Advisory Group (http://www.isc.ie/about_us/ag4_infrastructure.html) was dismissed last December 2000 with practically none of their suggestions put in to practice. No surprises there, as Eircom and Esat were both members and it can be argued that bith acted to protect their interests.

THIS IS WHY IRELAND OFFLINE IS STILL A WORTHY CAUSE. Without it our arguing rambling ranting and raving goes unheard, without it our lobbying is weak and unstructured. Together the concerned members of the pressure group can ensure that a unified voice is heard crying out of our pathetic 56k lines (the lucky ones).



David Long
Vice Chairman IrelandOffline


"Did I ask too much more than alot, Eircom gave me nothing now its all I got"