Feingold for president.

Hobbes

http://www.senate.gov/~feingold/releases/01/10/102501at.html

Looks like the USA law has been passed. Just needs a signature from the president to make it final.

Good Morning America.. say goodbye to your rights.

Magwitch

I have to say I am not particularly concerned about American civil rights as I was not born in that country and do not intend to live there the rest of my life. Why you should be is beyond me, even though you work there. It is slightly comparible to folks comming to Ireland from darkest Africa and shouting about how crap our country and laws are....not exactly welcome comment as it is not very valid. Americans seem happy with their lot - thats what mattars - and if not they still have the vote - and if they chose not to use it - so what?

I would be more concerned about refusing the right to travel to 14 year old pregnant girls in this country in light of the new abortion amendment. A civil rights issue closer to home.

Hobbes

The Abortion thing is pretty old news (well over 5 years) and find me a person who hasn't been able to travel to get an abortion? If they do get stopped they just use the "other reason" that allows them to get the abortion. Of course the state believes that Abortion is murder, so it would be the same as someone going to a third world country to have one of thier family killed.

As for why should I worry? Well for starters, apart from taking away civil rights of US citizens it also has far reaching implications for non-US citizens.

For any Irish who have had to put up with the "Anti-terrorism" laws in England they should be well aware of what it will entail.

Actually Feingold says in his statement something similar.

We who don’t have Arabic names or don’t wear turbans or headscarves may not feel the weight of these times as much as Americans from the Middle East and South Asia do. But as the great jurist Learned Hand said in a speech in New York’s Central Park during World War II: "The spirit of liberty is the spirit which seeks to understand the minds of other men and women; the spirit of liberty is the spirit which weighs their interests alongside its own without bias . . . ."

P1ss off the wrong person on a holiday to the US and you can find yourself sitting in a room for a week with no rights whatsoever. Again in Feingolds statement he mentions where such a thing happend.

Or on a business trip to the US the police can come in and go through all your belongings without ever telling you that they had a warrent to do it.

Yes it effects people who aren't citizens of the US.

Nagilum

I don't support this bill as I think it goes to far in the power it gives to police and law enforcement in curtailing the civil liberties of citizens. The constitution was written to protect the civil liberties of American citizens.

IMO the only people that should be subject to the new legislation are foreign nationals.

Hobbes

Of course then the terrorists will just use forged Identity to prove they are a US Citizen.

Then what about home grown terrorists?

What defines a foreign national? Someone without a work visa? Greencard? Someone here less then 5 years? 10 years?

Nagilum

Originally posted by Hobbes
Of course then the terrorists will just use forged Identity to prove they are a US Citizen.

Then what about home grown terrorists?

What defines a foreign national? Someone without a work visa? Greencard? Someone here less then 5 years? 10 years?

They should find another way to deal with "home grown" terrorists rather than curtailing the rights of all the US citizens.

A foreign national is someone who isn't a naturalized citizen, last time I checked.

Victor

[FLAME ON]

Originally posted by Nagilum
A foreign national is someone who isn't a naturalized citizen, last time I checked.

Does that make the "common- or garden-type, home grown citizen" a foreign national.

[FLAME OFF]

---

Whatever about Immigration Laws per se. Having two different laws (in the same time and place) for otherwise equal people, would appear to be very much against the generally held concepts of morality, democracy and proper legal procedure (remember apartheid, slavery, ....).

Hobbes

Originally posted by Nagilum
A foreign national is someone who isn't a naturalized citizen, last time I checked.

However if say "everyone wearing a red sweater is a potential terrorist", how many people who are actually terrorists would wear one?

Also bare in mind that at least 2 of the guys they caught had (at face value) paperwork of citizenship.

Terrorist cells (ie. IRA) have been known to go to sleep for up to 15 years so as to make detection almost impossible.

Nagilum

Originally posted by Hobbes


However if say "everyone wearing a red sweater is a potential terrorist", how many people who are actually terrorists would wear one?

Also bare in mind that at least 2 of the guys they caught had (at face value) paperwork of citizenship.

Terrorist cells (ie. IRA) have been known to go to sleep for up to 15 years so as to make detection almost impossible.

I believe that we need to take a hard look at immigration laws, particularly with regard to countries which we know contain terrorist organizations hostile to the US.

Also, we need to make sure that we restrict entry to those who have anything questionable on their record. Atta, the guy who some think may have masterminded the attack on the tactical level, was actually blacklisted, but entered the country anyway. That is simply unacceptable.

There may in fact be cells here, as you say, hiding for 15 years or more, but I doubt it since the other terrorists were only here for 2 years. But, if they are, the govt shouldn't simply be able to go around questioning all the naturalized citizens just because they are from Arab countries. They should only have increased powers over foreign nationals. They are simply going to have to come up with other ways to surveille any citizens they suspect.

Besides, if we make it difficult enough for terrorists to get in, eventually the organizations will have to start reaching out to people already in the US. When that happens, we will, hopefully, have more ability to intercept and perhaps infiltrate these organizations.

I'm convinced we can improve security while only hindering foreign nationals' conveniences and not significantly hindering American citizens. I live in hope anyway...

Victor

[FLAME ON]

Originally posted by Nagilum
I believe that we need to take a hard look at immigration laws, particularly with regard to countries which we know contain terrorist organizations hostile to the US.

Like, for example, the US?

[FLAME OFF]

Nagilum

Originally posted by Victor
[FLAME ON]



Like, for example, the US?

[FLAME OFF]

Yes, there are some in the US, but if you had read my post, you'd see that I said that you should not use the same methods dealing with citizens that you do dealing with foreign nationals.

PHB

Simply I know I saw a film on this, think it worked out in the end so we should be ok.
I know Bush is not that stupid to basically impose martial law, he would lose way too much in the polls.