Are there poor people in Ireland?

Xterminator

The poor are getting poorer .... ?"

The catch call for the socialists in our country. While I agree the gap between the top earners and the bottom earners is widening, think about poor for a minute.

What Irish people call poor, and what real poverty is are a million miles apart.

I passed by a towerblock 13 stories high in ballymun yesterday.
9 of the 13 story block had sky digital mini dishes.

Ther were cars parked on the green spaces, becuase all of the provided car spaces were full up.

And I had a thought. Are there really many people in Ireland who couldn't get a job, in the like of McDonalds, service stations, shop asistants tc. if they really looked.

Minumum wage has been introduced, and there are the FIS payments to supplement a low income if your interested in working.

There is an atttude that "if I cant get a decent job, I'll stay unemployed". Rather than work in a menial job like fast food.

This is not poverty. this is lack of material assets. It can be a lifestyle below what one expects.

Poverty is the danger of malnutrition, due to lack of basic foods.
The inability to obtain basic healthcare and medicine.( note the word basic) Poverty is child labour or slave labour where you work from dawn to dusk for a subsistance!

The only real trap is that of homeless people, yet even homeless people can get off the street, (not easy but can be done) according to a friend, who was homeless himself. Even when he was homeless, he kept himself tidy by using the toilets in Bus Eireann, so that when he got an interview for a job inna fast food place, he was able to get into a bedsit .. and worked his way up the ladder.

What do you think?

Aspro

While I was tempted just to ignore your post Xterminator for the sheer arrogance and Mary Harneyisms in it I thought maybe a few facts and figures might help in the discussion.

First of all check out The Irish Times from July 12th, 2001 - hardly the mouthpiece of the disenfranchised - and see what they say:
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/1999/0712/fro1.htm

Then we can check out the Combat Poverty's website:http://www.cpa.ie/monitorpov.html

As they quote themselves: "People are in poverty when they do not have the income or resources to enjoy a standard of living considered acceptable by the community generally or to participate fully in society." If you were expecting the poor to doff their cloth caps and say "evenin' squire" before they sank back into their hovels maybe you're living in the wrong century.

While you can cite rhetoric about incidences of cars and minidishes the actual facts speak for themselves. While consistent poverty may have decreased between 1994 and 1997 this does not account for the fact that inflation has massively eaten into peoples pockets since 1997 esp. in terms of rented accomodation.

The rising tide of the "Celtic Tiger" may have meant that poverty was lessened to a minimal degree i.e. more menial contract jobs were created but this is only a temporary blip in the economic situation. Job losses have begun with a bang but unfortunately this is only the tip of the iceberg. Let's face the facts - we are at the beginning of a worldwide recession and I wish we could all be as complacent and self-satisfied as you. I hope your job is secure and you don't end up struggling like so many of those for whom you have disdain.

You quote the incidence of your friend who was homeless but "kept himself tidy by using the toilets in Bus Eireann, so that when he got an interview for a job inna fast food place, he was able to get into a bedsit .. and worked his way up the ladder."

Fair play to him, but there's no reason why anyone should have to be homeless in the first place in our country. We are awash with money but as usual it's concentrated in the same few greedy hands. You cannot justify homelessness or inequality just because a few manage to drag themselves up the ladder. How about we just get rid of the ladder altogether.

Btw I'm one of those "catch-calling socialists" as you put it and proud of it, but I prefer to see it as stating the facts.

:mad:

The Gopher

To tell the truth i think alot of the homeless could be right bastards who deserve to be where they are.Not all,but a fair few.

Shinji

People are in poverty when they do not have the income or resources to enjoy a standard of living considered acceptable by the community generally or to participate fully in society.

Utter tripe.

You are in poverty when your income is not enough to clothe you, feed you and put a roof over your head. It's that bloody simple; these ludicrous attempts at trying to define people who can't afford PCs, cars and mobile phones as "in poverty" are not only stupid, but are a slap in the face to the many people in other parts of the world who ARE in poverty.

You work your a$$ off to get anywhere. That's just how life is; you don't sit on your fat behind waiting for the surrogate-parent state to throw money at you and give you a nice cushy job. You live where you can afford to live. You go without from time to time. You bust your balls to pay the bills. If you've got ambition, you bust your balls even harder to educate yourself further and build a career.

You talk about the homeless like there's some cruel system in place putting these people out on the streets. That's crap. The social welfare system is actually pretty bloody generous at the end of the day; it provides enough for people to cover the basic requirements as set out above, namely food, clothes and a roof.

"How about we get rid of the ladder altogether", you ask. Dear god man, has the abject failure of every communist state on the planet taught you nothing? Nice idea, doesn't work in practice - a bit like giant robots and time travel. Only less likely to EVER work...

Gray

There arn't any real poor in Western Europe anymore as the welfare systems in all these states ensures people arn't going to die through the lack of basic needs, unlike in the 3rd world.
However there are a group of activists who make a nice living out of campaining for the rights of the new poor, and by the definition now used for poverty we will never get rid of it. This is because poverty is now classed as earning less than 2/3 of the average wage, and since to have an average there must always be an equal value on either side there will always be poverty. This creats a lifetime job for these special interest groups funded our tax's.

So tell them to get of their ass's get a job and stop winging

Typedef

Yes there are.
Homeless people are below the requisite subsistence level to put shelter over their heads and feed themselves and Dublin has one of the highest rates of homelessness in the British Isles - this is not a proportionate rounded number either, there are literally more homeless people on the streets of Dublin then in three of the major English cities.

The real poverty in this world is in places like sub-saharan Africa where as much as 40% of the population of some countries are HIV+, the countries are war torn - a leagcy of colonialism, and many are in various stages of famine. That is poverty and most of it did not exist until the white man came fo mess things up. Real poverty is the teaming millions of people who live in squallar in India under a repressive cast system, condemned for their entire lives to be cast x or cast y.

Real poverty is North Korea where a famine has been threatening for about two years now. Yes in Ireland there are many poor people, but the fact is the cats that run this country are in business for themselves and have us bamboozled through the media. The media is an appendage of the powerful/ascendants in this country, no they are not anglo-irish mudpeople, they are the fsckers like Denis O'Brien or the TDs that didn't take the step of abolishing corporate political contributions.

Fact is human nature is now undermining human activity on this planet. Industry is undermining the enviroment, which is decreasing bio-diversity, which is in turn bad for our food chain and the mechisma that supports the enviroment which provides food and essential raw materials. This same id like hand to mouth activity that endemnifies human activity is ample proof that there will always be millions suffering for the sake of the few until we evolve or die. There is no other way. The war is on!

Aspro

"How about we get rid of the ladder altogether", you ask. Dear god man, has the abject failure of every communist state on the planet taught you nothing? Nice idea, doesn't work in practice - a bit like giant robots and time travel. Only less likely to EVER work...

Shinji, you seem like an intelligent bloke from other posts I've seen you make throughout the boards. For that reason I can't believe there are still people who come out with those same old tired lines "nice idea, doesn't work in practice".

Firstly, there has never been a "communist state" on the planet. Russia between 1917 and 1923 was the closest we have gotten yet but was destroyed by external war with 21 imperialist armies, internal civil war and famine caused by years of war. These factors gave Stalin and his opportunist cronies the chance to take power in a bureaucratic state, which in turn became the model for other regimes calling themselves "communist" i.e. China, Cuba etc. Therefore what people think was "communism" was about as far from the real deal as you can get.

And just because it didn't succeed once doesn't mean it can't again. Unlike "time travel" we do have the most important factor available to make it succeed - the largest working class that has existed in the world ever. And we're pissed off. And the anti-globalisation protests throughout the world are only a taster of what's to come in the future.

If you read the real history of the period i.e Trotsky's "History of the Russian Revolution" you would know that had the revolution succeeded in Germany as opposed to Russia we would be living in a completely different world now.

Systems of society do change. Otherwise we'd all still be peasants paying our taxes to the local noble.

As for the definition of poverty - you can't compare poverty in the third world with poverty in the developed world. Are you trying to say that if you live in a run down hovel of a flat, wear dirty clothes because you can't afford to go to the laundrette, and eat a diet of cornflakes and beans on toast that you're not living in poverty?? O.K. so you have a roof, food and clothes but it's hardly a decent and healthy standard of living.

One of the measurements of poverty is life expectancy. How close to sixty do you think you're going to get living like that?

You talk about the homeless like there's some cruel system in place putting these people out on the streets.

There is. It's called greedy landlords who can charge whatever they want in rent. It's called no fixity of tenure. It's called no regulation of rents by the government. It's called an almost non-existant social housing scheme - tens of thousands on the waiting lists, while corporations and councils sell off their land to private developers whose only interest is in making the quick buck. It's called the heroin crisis that the government has tried for thirty years to sweep under the carpet. We need treatment and counselling facilities, not more prisons.

As for the social welfare system being generous - have you ever been on the dole? Because I have. And believe me, it's a struggle to survive. And fortunately when my landlord decided he'd make more money by selling the house and turfing us out, I was lucky enough to have somewhere else to go. Many others don't.

And even though I have a decent job now and can waste my time posting messages like this it doesn't make me blind to what exists in our sick and unequal society. Ireland might not be Afghanistan but to try to say poverty doesn't exist is the "slap in the face" to those of our people who are forced into that situation.

Xterminator

Originally posted by Aspro
While I was tempted just to ignore your post Xterminator for the sheer arrogance and Mary Harneyisms in it I thought maybe a few facts and figures might help in the discussion.

Is it arrogance to have a thought, post it and ask other opinions?
You think so anyway. As for you facts and figures, you reject mine easily enough, ie 9 out of 13 flats had sky digital, and more cars than could be parked in the regular parking spaces. all this in Ballymun!


As they quote themselves: "People are in poverty when they do not have the income or resources to enjoy a standard of living considered acceptable by the community generally or to participate fully in society." [/QUOTE]

Here is the crux of my thought/belief. That is not poverty. Povery to me is well enough described on the 1st post. It does exist, it is terrible, but to call someone who has food, clothing and a roof, and basic healthcare and education to be in poverty, is in turn a slap in the face to all the people in the Afro/middle-east 3rd world.

They would love a chance to be 'poor in ireland'.

While consistent poverty may have decreased between 1994 and 1997 ....inflation has massively eaten into peoples pockets since 1997 esp. in terms of rented accomodation......The rising tide of the "Celtic Tiger" may have meant that poverty was lessened to a minimal degree i.e. more menial contract jobs were created ..[/QUOTE]


So here you ignore the fact that near full empoyment has been reached in Ireland, record growth achieved, and the basic social welfare levels increased to where i believe they provide a reaonable spring board for the unfortunate who need them. (eg child benefit). I dont mind, i just think that its strange that you never mention it.

Let's face the facts - we are at the beginning of a worldwide recession and I wish we could all be as complacent and self-satisfied as you. I hope your job is secure and you don't end up struggling like so many of those for whom you have disdain.
[/QUOTE]

Actually the recession began some time ago, just that we are beginning to feel the pinch now.
P.S. Unlike you, I have shown no disdain for any section of the community, execpt perhaps the socialists who quote selective figures, and lets face it, even homer simpson knows statistics can be used to prove anything.

You quote the incidence of your friend who was homeless but "kept himself tidy by using the toilets in Bus Eireann, so that when he got an interview for a job inna fast food place, he was able to get into a bedsit .. and worked his way up the ladder."
Fair play to him, but there's no reason why anyone should have to be homeless in the first place in our country. We are awash with money but as usual it's concentrated in the same few greedy hands. You cannot justify homelessness or inequality just because a few manage to drag themselves up the ladder. How about we just get rid of the ladder altogether.
[/QUOTE]

Here is probably the single issue that defines our difference of opinion here.
It may come as a shock to you bt the world owes you nothing!
You are not entitled to a nice standard of living.
You have to go out there and work your boIIox off to get it! You have to earn it, and if your lucky enough, you might be able to raise your children, giving them some of the comforts you might not have had. But then you're one of the few with money for whom you have shown disdain.

You however believe that each person is entilted to a share of these things without having to earn it? But if people get these things handed to them, then they abuse the situation, as has been shown time and time again in economic models. If you get the same reward for working hard, as you do for slacking off.., innovation dies, work ethec dies.

It is no coincidence that some of the richest nations in the world have a hard work ethic. (e.g. Japan)

If you find my opinion Harneyesque, fine!

P.S. I was unemployed too, with a wife and a child, and another on the way. I had more to worry about than if I could get another rented flat in Rathmines or drumcondra or whatever little chose niche you've found.

If you really were worried about finding a place to live, you would, as i did queued outside corporation offices day after day, till you got a flat in a ****ty area. Then you start working your Ass off until you can move up in the world.

To Typedef, i agree, the poverty we see elsewhere in the world is terrible! It is real poverty, and we should do our best to aid these people. That is why I posted my thought. As for homelessness, i even agred that was the one possible exception here in Ireland
of poverty.

Unlike however the starving Afgans, the homeless in Ireland can get out of the cycle. They must avoid the drink and drugs poit, which has helped so many out onto the street.

X

Brown Eyes

Yes there is poverty is Ireland. Both absolute and relative. The people living in poverty are children. Have you ever been to a St VdeP breakfast club? They provide breakfasts for many kids who would get no food before going to school otherwise. Many kids don't have a winter coat never mind a gameboy.

Most of these children's parent(s) are on welfare, most are headed by a single parent, but not all. Maybe dad is earning £100K, but there is no distribution of this money in the home. Ah well never mind, child benefit was increased in the last budget.

Xterminator

Ok, what ur saying, is that although the parents get a reasonable amount of money to feed and clothe the children, the parent/guardian might not be passing that to the children.

They might be drinkers or gamblers etc.

Good point.

I wonder if the law can force parents to provide for the children first? Did we ever create a minister for children?
I remember it was in the news as an idea.

X

tools

If you really were worried about finding a place to live, you would, as i did queued outside corporation offices day after day, till you got a flat in a ****ty area.

So you're quite prepared to take advantage of socialist mechanisms when it suits you eh?

Aspro

Here is probably the single issue that defines our difference of opinion here.
It may come as a shock to you bt the world owes you nothing!
You are not entitled to a nice standard of living.
You have to go out there and work your boIIox off to get it! You have to earn it, and if your lucky enough, you might be able to raise your children, giving them some of the comforts you might not have had. But then you're one of the few with money for whom you have shown disdain.

First of all the world does owe me something. It owes us all something. There is enough wealth and resources on this rich planet of ours to provide a decent standard of living for every man, woman and child.

A fraction of Bill Gates wealth would provide clean water for the entire Third World. And that's not just another statistic but report by the UNHCR.

Why should I go out and work my bo11ox off, struggling to get by, as you have done yourself while the Denis O'Briens and the Tony O'Reilly's of this world treat themselves to another roll of golden toilet paper?

I'm not one of the few with money for whom I have disdain. I lived in Dolphin's Barn, did a FAS course, got lucky and have a relatively decent job that pays the bills. There is an entire universe between what an ordinary workers earns and what the super rich own. Just because a person manages to get by with hard work doesn't mean they have to be blind to the injustice in society or despise those who have not had the same good fortune.

However what people should be aware of is that it is the very greed of those who own and control our world that causes poverty, and not an unwillingness to work on the behalf of the victims. In America most of those living in poverty are families where the breadwinner earns minimum wage or less. So forget about full employment statistics. Just because you have a job doesn't mean you necessarily have a life.

You talk about a hard work ethic. Japan has been in recession for over ten years. Try asking a working class Japanese person just how much of their country's wealth they saw. And they'll probably tell you, about as much as the Irish working class saw during the Celtic Tiger. F.uck all.

There is a large gap between those who live in poverty and those who are "poor in Ireland" but they are both instances of poverty. It doesn't take a leap of the imagination to see that in a situation of Ireland being ravaged by war the Irish poor could easily be thrown into a situation of third-world like poverty. We only have to go back to standards of living during the Great Famine or during the early 20th century to see that Ireland's poor were on an equivalent level to third world of today.

We live in a society where the greed for profit is the overriding motive. People are expendable. Just because some of us can struggle on within it does not justify its existance. And I think a lot of people around the world are now coming to realise that.