Paranormal... Load o Balls?

pants on fire

I am personally a very scientific man and i am very much of the belief that there is no such thing as the paranormal. I belive anything can be explained rationally, without having to include the possibility of spirits and what not.

However, I also see that there is a very large number of people today who have faith in the stuff that ''doesn't make sense''.
Too large a number for me to just dismiss it.

But I just deep down dont know what to think when I hear all these crazy ghost stories, hauntings, aliens etc. Especially because of the fact that there is not one shred of evidence in existence to prove it.

My granny's house is very old and has the look of a stereotypical ''haunted house''! I've often spent nights there alone. I enjoy carrying out the odd 'experiment'on myself.
I'd rent a horror film like Poltergeist or The Grudge, watch it with the lights off, and try and freak myself out. Its amazing how your imagination can run away with you!!
But fortunately I have a very big rational side of my brain, and I can quickly realise its all in mine head.
Random noises can all be explained, and those shadows you see mightn't even be there at all! Its amazing how powerful your brain can be.

I believe most sightings, stories etc can all be put down to either someone making it up, or someone letting their imagination get carried away.

However, I would really love for someone to tell me something that I cannot explain by either of these reasons.

I am very open minded.

Kernel

pants on fire wrote:

I am personally a very scientific man and i am very much of the belief that there is no such thing as the paranormal. I belive anything can be explained rationally, without having to include the possibility of spirits and what not.

Of course there is a paranormal. There are always things that are unexplained by science, and there always have been - unless you subscribe to the blinkered view that our primitive science knows every facet of the universe??

pants on fire wrote:

But I just deep down dont know what to think when I hear all these crazy ghost stories, hauntings, aliens etc. Especially because of the fact that there is not one shred of evidence in existence to prove it.

You are not at all as open-minded as you like to think. 'Crazy' ghost stories? I'm sure many of the unknown things our ancestors didn't know about seemed 'crazy' at the time too. Imagine how crazy the notion of us living on a planet that wasn't flat was? Imagine the crazyness of the stories of tribes and cultures never before explored by western civilisations seemed.. you catch my drift.

To say there is not one shred of evidence to support any aspect of the paranormal is also untrue. Witness testimony is a form of evidence. Photographs, unusual readings from scientific instruments, experiments on ESP and remote viewing etc.

pants on fire wrote:

I believe most sightings, stories etc can all be put down to either someone making it up, or someone letting their imagination get carried away.

Very blinkered view.

pants on fire wrote:

However, I would really love for someone to tell me something that I cannot explain by either of these reasons.

I am very open minded.

As I have indicated, you are not really open minded, you are already entrenching yourself in a certain paradigm - by disregarding the vast witness testimonies and other types of evidence without even researching or considering them. You already revealed a psychology of disbelief in anything outside the realm of known science, by your posting.

If you are serious about finding out anything to do with the paranormal, then I suggest you read up on whatever aspect of it you want to enlighten yourself on, then make the decision. No point coming on an internet forum asking for people to prove it to you, unless you are trolling? Your thread title seems to suggest this mindset to be honest.

Zillah

pants on fire wrote:

I am personally a very scientific man and i am very much of the belief that there is no such thing as the paranormal...I am very open minded.

Hello, I'm the resident sceptic and general nay sayer, and you sir are a troll or a jackass.

The "paranormal" are things we do not yet understand. Most of it is nonesense, but some of what is considered paranormal now will be understood tomorrow. To claim that you're a scientiffic man and then claim that everything paranormal is untrue is a complete oxymoron.

But fortunately I have a very big rational side of my brain

Uh huh...

Kernel

Zillah wrote:

Hello, I'm the resident sceptic and general nay sayer, and you sir are a troll or a jackass.

Succinctly put Zillah!

It would have been a better thread if the 'load o balls' part was left out, but how and ever...

Zillah

Oh and:

Kernel wrote:

As I have indicated, you are not really open minded, you are already entrenching yourself in a certain paradigm - by disregarding the vast witness testimonies and other types of evidence without even researching or considering them. You already revealed a psychology of disbelief in anything outside the realm of known science, by your posting.

Very nicely put, and quite poignant. Its an unfortunatly common misconception that getting caught in a modern/suburban sort of paradigm is "open minded" or "sceptical".

Rozie

I really think you're confusing "Rational" with "Atheistic" or at best "Sceptical". There could well be a rational explanation for everything, but if you're looking at things that way, you could be disappointed when you find thing are much weirder than you could ever imagine with the lights turned off watching some cheesy horror flick.

And are you sure by "Big rational" side of your brain, you didn't mean "Bacon and rashers"? Because to be honest, I saw more traces of wanting a spontaneous fry-up than I did of any logical or rational behaviour.

stevenmu

pants on fire wrote:

However, I also see that there is a very large number of people today who have faith in the stuff that ''doesn't make sense''.
Too large a number for me to just dismiss it.

This line saves your post for me. There are many of us who've experienced things we can't explain through rational means. True, some people do then leap to irrational conclusions (I can't claim to be totally innocent of that myself), but personally I think that ultimatly while science/logic can explain everything, there are some things they can't explain quite yet.

edit: imho, a large part of the reason for this is the fact that paranormal researchers, on both sides (believers and sceptics), tend to jump straight from observing an effect' to looking for 'proof', whereas the proper method should be to observe an 'effect', construct theories to explain it's 'cause', and then try to prove/disprove those theories. One glaring example that comes to mind is the gansfeld research at the University of Endinburgh. They've been getting some good results, but what I think they should really be doing at this stage is to forget about trying to find statistical proof of what they've achieved and focus on understanding exactly what's happening. One way to do this is to try and 'break' the effect, for e.g. see if lead lined rooms 'block' transmission, then they can begin to try and understand what causes the effect, and then it'll be easy to find conclusive proof.

Sapien

Kernel wrote:

No point coming on an internet forum asking for people to prove it to you, unless you are trolling?

*smugness*

Kernel

Sapien wrote:

*smugness*

Sapien, you know I was thinking of our earlier magic debate even as I was writing that, believe it or not!

6th

Sapien wrote:

*smugness*

you're finest post yet... but not the first to make me laugh! (meant in a nice way!)

Zillah

dublin6th wrote:

you're finest post yet... but not the first to make me laugh! (meant in a nice way!)

I was so pleased with that at first...

Ziycon

All i'll say to you is that just because you cant see something or you cant prove it yourself doesn't mean its not der! We know air exists but you cant see it or touch it but you know its der!

I can be proven now dat air exists, but years ago it couldnt be proven cause they didnt have the methods, maybe its just a matter of time till we have the methods to prove or dis-prove spirits exist!

Kernel

Ziycon wrote:

All i'll say to you is that just because you cant see something or you cant prove it yourself doesn't mean its not der! We know air exists but you cant see it or touch it but you know its der!

I can be proven now dat air exists, but years ago it couldnt be proven cause they didnt have the methods, maybe its just a matter of time till we have the methods to prove or dis-prove spirits exist!

I agree, dats what I was saying, dat der are many tings science cant explain at de minute.

RPGGAMER

pants on fire wrote:

I am personally a very scientific man and i am very much of the belief that there is no such thing as the paranormal. I belive anything can be explained rationally, without having to include the possibility of spirits and what not.

However, I also see that there is a very large number of people today who have faith in the stuff that ''doesn't make sense''.
Too large a number for me to just dismiss it.

But I just deep down dont know what to think when I hear all these crazy ghost stories, hauntings, aliens etc. Especially because of the fact that there is not one shred of evidence in existence to prove it.

My granny's house is very old and has the look of a stereotypical ''haunted house''! I've often spent nights there alone. I enjoy carrying out the odd 'experiment'on myself.
I'd rent a horror film like Poltergeist or The Grudge, watch it with the lights off, and try and freak myself out. Its amazing how your imagination can run away with you!!
But fortunately I have a very big rational side of my brain, and I can quickly realise its all in mine head.
Random noises can all be explained, and those shadows you see mightn't even be there at all! Its amazing how powerful your brain can be.

I believe most sightings, stories etc can all be put down to either someone making it up, or someone letting their imagination get carried away.

However, I would really love for someone to tell me something that I cannot explain by either of these reasons.

I am very open minded.

i tend to agree and science can even explain some very very weird phenomomen. the other folk here should name one and see if we can explain it rationally/scientifically......

solas

As it is, this forum has a delicate balance of people who view the paranormal from both sides of the coin. This is not the skeptics society, there is already a forum dedicated to that subject.

I suggest you take a look through some previous threads so as to get an idea of what is discussed here.

Kernel

RPGGAMER wrote:

i tend to agree and science can even explain some very very weird phenomomen. the other folk here should name one and see if we can explain it rationally/scientifically......

The force of gravity.

CodeMonkey

Kernel wrote:

As I have indicated, you are not really open minded, you are already entrenching yourself in a certain paradigm - by disregarding the vast witness testimonies and other types of evidence without even researching or considering them. You already revealed a psychology of disbelief in anything outside the realm of known science, by your posting.

I don't agree with the original posters assertion that "paranormal is a load of balls" but I can never take witness testimonies as definitive proof for a specific phenomenon. Even the other type of evidence only proofs that there might be something there but it might not be what the paranormal community believes. There are a lot of things science can't explain, that doesn't mean the explaination offered by the paranormal community is correct.

You are not at all as open-minded as you like to think. 'Crazy' ghost stories? I'm sure many of the unknown things our ancestors didn't know about seemed 'crazy' at the time too. Imagine how crazy the notion of us living on a planet that wasn't flat was? Imagine the crazyness of the stories of tribes and cultures never before explored by western civilisations seemed.. you catch my drift.

That's not a fair comparison. When people first brought about the notion of a spherical earth, it was backed up by theories based on evidences that can be observed by anyone. Ghosts however are only usually seen by the witness. Take the idea of the sun being a god for example. The sun clearly brings warmth and gives life etc. So can a witness misinterpret something that is happening to them as spirits or ghosts? I'd think the answer is yes. The problem with the paranormal community is that they are too eager to believe in the given paranormal explaination, especially if it supports something they themselves believe.

Zillah

Kernel wrote:

The force of gravity.

The Higgs field, vis a vis the Higgs boson.

Kernel

Zillah wrote:

The Higgs field, vis a vis the Higgs boson.

I've never heard of that, thanks for the info. Just had a quick goole and it sounds very like Tesla's 'ether' theory.

CodeMonkey wrote:

I don't agree with the original posters assertion that "paranormal is a load of balls" but I can never take witness testimonies as definitive proof for a specific phenomenon. Even the other type of evidence only proofs that there might be something there but it might not be what the paranormal community believes. There are a lot of things science can't explain, that doesn't mean the explaination offered by the paranormal community is correct.

Oh I'm not saying the theories offered by the paranormal community are correct, but they are (para )logical conclusions based on research of a sort. I'm merely stating that there is a paranormal, and there always have been. Natural phenomena which have not yet (and who knows, perhaps can never) be explained by our current scientific paradigm.

I also think many people - particularly those who worship the new idol of science - almost completely disregard witness testimony at times, which is counter productive also.

CodeMonkey wrote:

That's not a fair comparison. When people first brought about the notion of a spherical earth, it was backed up by theories based on evidences that can be observed by anyone. Ghosts however are only usually seen by the witness.

I take your point, but I think it is a very fair comparison. If you look at scientific discoveries, they always advance our understanding of the nature of the universe and existence in which we find ourselves, but before these discoveries were made, many things seemed strange and impossible to people at the time. And many were never observed by most people, merely by a scientist or two who then had to convince the rest of the world that their findings were true (not just talking about theoretical physics here either, even geological, chemical, biological - all the sciences in fact).

I have a healthy skepticism myself, but I cannot discount the thousands of ghost sightings and other paranormal phenomenon witnessed by credible people all over the world for much of history. In 1000 years perhaps the notion of ghosts, or ultraterrestrials visiting our dimension will be established and understoodf scientic fact.

CodeMonkey wrote:

Take the idea of the sun being a god for example. The sun clearly brings warmth and gives life etc. So can a witness misinterpret something that is happening to them as spirits or ghosts? I'd think the answer is yes. The problem with the paranormal community is that they are too eager to believe in the given paranormal explaination, especially if it supports something they themselves believe.

Misinterpretation certainly happens, but in all fields, not just the paranormal. Which is why I still believe science is our best tool in decyphering the mysteries, as science normally doesn't leave itself open to interpretation. Science is also based on and works within our own human logic system, however, and is thus limited by that in a way, so I think it's arrogant of our civilisation to think our science method answers everything - or even could answer everything. However, I'm optimistic about the future of scientific understanding, and believe science is like a lego set, or a jigsaw, and the more we build on it and put together the more complete the picture will be - once we don't disregard certain pieces of the puzzle.

CodeMonkey

I take your point, but I think it is a very fair comparison. If you look at scientific discoveries, they always advance our understanding of the nature of the universe and existence in which we find ourselves, but before these discoveries were made, many things seemed strange and impossible to people at the time. And many were never observed by most people, merely by a scientist or two who then had to convince the rest of the world that their findings were true (not just talking about theoretical physics here either, even geological, chemical, biological - all the sciences in fact).

I still say it's not a fair comparison. I mean you can tell people to watch a ship sail away into the sea. The hull will eventually start disappearing over the horizon until only the mast or sails are seen before the ship completely disappears etc which is one of the observable evidence for the curvature of the earth and that it's spherical. If you point this out to people and ask them to observe then they will see it. How to observe evidence or recreate an experiment can be taught and independently verified by other scientists. No ghost witness can really tell others how to observe or experience what they're experienced.

Zillah

Kernel wrote:

I've never heard of that, thanks for the info. Just had a quick goole and it sounds very like Tesla's 'ether' theory.

I think it is in 2007 that CERN will be doing some experiments in which they hope to prove the existence of the Higgs Bosun.

solas

Its difficult under the circumstances to provide evidence via witness testimonies, as message boards offer limited capabilities.
I found a site online where people practice readings and "being psychic".
Other than being a little weird and "out there" I find its a good place to observe the processes in real time via chatroom. I'm not endorsing the site or any of the people and practices there, but for those interested in observing the "paranormal" or people who claim to have psychic abilities, theres plenty to see. (or not see)
if anyone is interested you can find the room at http://www.mediumystics.com/ and follow the guidelines.

*note, I will not be held responsible for other peoples experiences there, but feel free to come back and diiscuss your findings.

Dave!

I agree with the OP... I'm quite open-minded, but at the same time I think that everything can be explained rationally and scientifically (that's not to say that we have the science at the moment to explain the whole universe).

My friend is very into paranormal stuff, and he's always trying to convince me that a place is "haunted" or that someone's been "possessed", but it just doesn't make sense to me. Over-active imagination as far as I can see.

Zillah

DaveMcG wrote:

I agree with the OP... I'm quite open-minded, but at the same time I think that everything can be explained rationally and scientifically (that's not to say that we have the science at the moment to explain the whole universe).

Thats an oxymoron. You cannot agree with the original poster and then admit that there are things about the world that we do not understand. The OP was quite adamant that there is no such thing as the paranormal.

My friend is very into paranormal stuff, and he's always trying to convince me that a place is "haunted" or that someone's been "possessed", but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Oh yes, very scientiffic.

Einstein: Hey I was thinking that maybe time and space are subjective...
Someone Else: Well that doesn't make sense to me.
Einstein: Yeah you're probably right. Lets not experiment or do the maths.
Someone Else: Yeah, this is much easier.

The hypocrisy of claiming to be "rational and scientiffic" and then dismissing things off handedly because they "don't make sense to me"... its depressing.

Dave!

Well the idiocy of people believing ghost stories and fairytales is, to me, depressing

Zillah

You don't even see it, do you?

You are as stuck in your own little paradigm as much as anyone else. Dismissing the entire ghost phenomenon without even investigating or reading up is as invalid a practice as presuming the existence of fairies.

You have a belief, just like a christian or a witch, and are no more scientiffic than either of those two.

Dismissing evidence is just as invalid a process as belief without evidence.

stormkeeper

Dunno if this applies here, but this phrase popped into my head:

"Belief is something you believe to be true, fact is something that is usually proven to be true, but there are things that can't be proven (yet) by facts, or can't always be believed easily."


Hm, where'd that come from?

robindch

Zillah -

> The hypocrisy of claiming to be "rational and scientiffic" and then
> dismissing things off handedly because they "don't make sense
> to me"... its depressing.

Hmm... rather than dismissing DaveMcG's suggestion, that magic explanations don't make sense, do you think it would be worth investigating whether that might actually be true?

Have you read up on the psychology of belief and wish-fulfillment, brain-related temporal lobe effects, the ideomotor effect, not to mention the more mundane fact that people are simply *really* easy to fool?

Zillah

His "suggestion"? You mean his absolute and unfair assertion?

Zillah

robindch wrote:

Hmm... rather than dismissing DaveMcG's suggestion, that magic explanations don't make sense, do you think it would be worth investigating whether that might actually be true?

Have you read up on the psychology of belief and wish-fulfillment, brain-related temporal lobe effects, the ideomotor effect, not to mention the more mundane fact that people are simply *really* easy to fool?

Regardless of how easy a person is to trick or how likely the brain is to provide erroneous information, those things do not simply rule out 100% of witness testimony. It is unfair to dismiss the entire paranormal field because a significant amount of it is fraudulent.

Not to mention the fact that the entire basis of his logic is "that doesn't make sense to me".

robindch

> Not to mention the fact that the entire basis of his logic is "that
> doesn't make sense to me".

You're completely ignoring what he wrote in the rest of his post. Please be careful to understand what posters are actually saying, before slagging them off for being closed-minded.

> Regardless of how easy a person is to trick or how likely the brain
> is to provide erroneous information, those things do not simply
> rule out 100% of witness testimony.

I specifically did *not* suggest that you do rule it out -- again, please read what posters write, before jumping to a conclusion!

All I'm proposing that you read up on these other things, then go back and look at the available evidence and see if you can explain what you see without having to resort to magic.

Zillah

robindch wrote:

You're completely ignoring what he wrote in the rest of his post. Please be careful to understand what posters are actually saying, before slagging them off for being closed-minded.

I assure you, I read his entire post quite thoroughly. There really isn't that much there. Specifically the line:

My friend is very into paranormal stuff, and he's always trying to convince me that a place is "haunted" or that someone's been "possessed", but it just doesn't make sense to me. Over-active imagination as far as I can see.

...irked me. No attempt to investigate the information, no respect to the thousands upon thousands of witness testimonies, and no respect to the people who have dedicated their adult lives to investigating these things. Because it doesn't make sense to him.

I specifically did *not* suggest that you do rule it out -- again, please read what posters write, before jumping to a conclusion!

I specifically did *not* suggest that you did. I was refering to DaveMcG. Please read what posters write before jumping to a conclusion.

All I'm proposing that you read up on these other things, then go back and look at the available evidence and see if you can explain what you see without having to resort to magic.

I do, thank you. Every damn time I encounter a claim of the paranormal I do exactly that, and I'll thank you not to presume otherwise, I'm begining to get insulted.

And to be clear, my entire point in this thread has been

Me wrote:

Dismissing evidence is just as invalid a process as belief without evidence.

Anything else is an assumption on your part.

EDIT: And I don't appreciate your repeated use of the word "magic" either. It implies that any explanation that lies outside current scientiffic understanding is childish and irrational, which is an attitude that would have left us stranded in the dark ages.

Sapien

Zillah wrote:

EDIT: And I don't appreciate your repeated use of the word "magic" either. It implies that any explanation that lies outside current scientiffic understanding is childish and irrational, which is an attitude that would have left us stranded in the dark ages.

Now you're implying that magic is childish and irrational.

Zillah

Im implying that that would be the common conception of magic. If you'd submit some of your spells to laboratory testing I'd be delighted to test their authenticity.

Sapien

Zillah wrote:

Im implying that that would be the common conception of magic. If you'd submit some of your spells to laboratory testing I'd be delighted to test their authenticity.

I hear nothing, I hear nothing, nothing from the loser on the bulletin board, I hear nothing, nothing, going once, nothing going twice, wait, I hear one million, thankyousir, one million from the bearded skeptic, one million ladiesandgentlemen, I hear one million, do I hear one million and one, one million and one...

mysteria

And what laboratory would you use for testing, Zillah?Are you a Scientist too? The so-called "Para"normal field is quite normal to some scientists. And believe it or not, there are Witches who are Scientists too. Heard of the R.N.G. experiments being conducted since the late 90's world-wide? You'll appreciate the significance of their findings.

Sapien

mysteria wrote:

And what laboratory would you use for testing, Zillah?Are you a Scientist too? The so-called "Para"normal field is quite normal to some scientists. And believe it or not, there are Witches who are Scientists too. Heard of the R.N.G. experiments being conducted since the late 90's world-wide? You'll appreciate the significance of their findings.

If Zillah has been paying any attention at all, he knows that I am a physicist and an Hermetic magickian.

mysteria

Sapien, Not many of us about these days. Io Trismegistus!

Sapien

mysteria wrote:

Sapien, Not many of us about these days. Io Trismegistus!

χαίρε!

mysteria

Καλή Χρονιά

Zillah

Ahh secret codes! Fell hermetic magics! *runs to obscure true name*

mysteria

Magick with a "k" works better

ISAW

Zillah wrote:

I think it is in 2007 that CERN will be doing some experiments in which they hope to prove the existence of the Higgs Bosun.

I think the LHC is coming on line in 2008. It should prove the existance of the Higges particle or its non existance! It is a wonder of construction. I witnessed it with my own eyes. I should say ONe of the four detectors before it was lowered into the LHC channel.

I saw the decomissioned LEP (I should say part of it since it is 38 km around).

ISAW

Zillah wrote:

Thats an oxymoron. You cannot agree with the original poster and then admit that there are things about the world that we do not understand. The OP was quite adamant that there is no such thing as the paranormal.

Yes one can and no he didnt as far as I see it. He said he did not believe in the paranormal and that he believed that science/reason could explain what people claim to be paranormal.

However it is not for science to do this is it? It is for the claimant to provide the evidence! Not for someone else to come along to show it doesnt work.

Now look at the following statements:

1. There are many things in the world we do not understand.
2. Science can ultimately explain what we do not understand.

1 and 2 are not logically inconsistant. Take the Rieman Hypothesis for example. Do you understand it? It hasent been proved. Take Fermats Last Theorem. Now that has been proved. Anyone can understand the theorem. But do you understand the proof?

The hypocrisy of claiming to be "rational and scientiffic" and then dismissing things off handedly because they "don't make sense to me"... its depressing.

Again this is shifting the burden. If someone does not believe in god or does not believe in the paranormal than that is their belief. It is when someone says "God is telling me to invade Iraq" or insists that " I have psychic powers which can heal your medically diagnosed problem all you have to do is pay me" then it is for THEM to support the ability they claim or to provide evidence for WMD (or whatever other reason for invading) in Iraq. Actually I believe it is also against the law to practice medicine without a licence.

In short the person making the claim should provide the evidence. If they cant do so then they can believe as they wish but they can not expect others (or the courts) to accept they have the ability they claim.

Zillah

About time I tied up some loose ends.

Although to be honest I'm quite sure what you're getting at. First of all mathematics is the weakest my scholarly pursuits, I have no idea what the afformentioned hypotheses are. Hopefully they merely served as examples, rather than being crucial to your point.

However it is not for science to do this is it? It is for the claimant to provide the evidence! Not for someone else to come along to show it doesnt work.

True, but I feel that applying that as an absolute will do us a disservice. There are vast amounts of testimony and other evidence for a number of paranormal phenomena, and until they have been conclusively proven the only truly rational and scientiffic conclusion must be "I don't know".

Yes one can and no he didnt as far as I see it. He said he did not believe in the paranormal and that he believed that science/reason could explain what people claim to be paranormal.

I feel that a faithful religious person can be a good scientist. But only if he/she accepts that their religious beliefs are entirely unscientiffic, and ensures that they do not interfere with their science.

In this case the OP stated that he was rational and scientific, and then professed his faith in the fact that paranormal phenomena do not exist. He did not keep his faith and science seperate, so he cannot make claims as to being "scientiffic".

6th

ISAW wrote:

However it is not for science to do this is it? It is for the claimant to provide the evidence! Not for someone else to come along to show it doesnt work.

Some bloke said the world was round ages ago, I'm sure he had reasons to believe this at the time but I doubt he had proof, like satalites and stuff. What do you know science proved him right! Still he shouldnt have said anything til he could prove it though?

6th

Zombrex

dublin6th wrote:

Some bloke said the world was round ages ago, I'm sure he had reasons to believe this at the time but I doubt he had proof, like satalites and stuff. What do you know science proved him right! Still he shouldnt have said anything til he could prove it though?

6th

Actually the accient Greeks worked out the world was round through maths over 2500 years ago, simply by observing the sun and the eclipse of the earth on the Moon. It would be another 1000 years before someone actually sailed around the world to show that yes it really was round

6th

Well I worked out ghosts existed by observing them on many occassions, just as millions of people have around the world .... guess we may have to wait a few hundred years for someone to prove it though.

Zombrex

dublin6th wrote:

Well I worked out ghosts existed by observing them on many occassions, just as millions of people have around the world

Its not quite the same thing, but I see the point you are making

6th

Wicknight wrote:

not quite the same thing

No comparision of two things are ever the exact same.

Anyway I feel that "man" have gotten so big headed in general, believing that they must, at their stage of scientific and technological development, have a fairly solid grasp of this world. People say things like "well if there are such things as ghosts how come we dont all see them? whats the diffference between you and me?"

Try walking into the Vatican and state thats there is no such thing as god, demand proof from the pope. Belief is a very powerful thing, look at what people like terrorists do in the name of their beliefs.

If people want to rip apart other peoples beliefs dont be a wussy about it, why not have the strenght of their convictions and take on ....say ... the catholic church or any other church for that matter?

6th

stormkeeper

Well said!