Su council meetings have gone mad!

panda100

This is one of the motions that was put forward at the last student union council meeting. Council notes that UCDSU has an anti-deportation mandate. Council notes that as a result of this mandate, UCDSU established an Anti-Deportation Campaign.
Council notes that at a peaceful ADC blockade at the Garda National Immigration Bureau against the mass deportation that took place on October 18th,
3rd Arts student Dara McHugh was arrested and is due in court on Thursday, October 27th.
Council notes the duty of UCDSU to defend its members and the role of UCDSU in campaigning against deportations.
Council mandates the payment of up to 500 euro towards Dara's legal costs and, if convicted, possible fine.
Council mandates UCDSU members to attend court in solidarity with Dara under the UCDSU banner.
Proposed by Conor McGowan, 4th year Engineering (Mechanical).
Seconded by Darren Cogavin, 3rd Social Science.

Does anyone know if it got passed or anything cos it is sheer maddness.We shouldnt be paying this guys legal fee's!Ok he did a noble gesture by going to the anti-deportation rally but the union shouldnt be spending its money on him when he got himself into this mess-its funny how not all of the hundred of other people who were at this 'peaceful' rally got arrested.Im sure he can do his own fundraising and the people who are in ucd who want to support him can but this should have nothing to do with the union.

padser

blooody F*&^%$£ stupid wa$%^&£ spending my ******* money on that Cr&*. I really really REALLY dislike the left wing tendencies of the union!!


I am....as you probably gather.....quite annoyed

rainbow kirby

*facepalm*
That's all I gotta say.

Syth

I'm curious what he got arrested for.

ferdi

eh, **** this bull ****! the su council should be looking after the students in THIS college and lobbing for a better deal in regard to fees, prices on campus, book availability, res and generally making college life a bit easier for the run-of-the-mill students of ucd

they are elected, they should work for us not these personal commie agendas!!!! ****ing **** **** mother****ers. sorry but this really pisses me off.

Red Alert

yes i've said this time and time again. i'm a left winger in many ways, but any left-winginess in the union is to be confined to THIS college alone. join and participate in USI to look after national issues and allow concerns in general to be done that way. 500 euro's is too much to give anybody for legal fees, he got arrested fair and square and that's his problem to deal with - does the union have a 'break the law' policy?

irlrobins

This is why i hate the SU. What a waste of time, deportation is not an issue that affects the average UCD student.

GRRR!!!

Vainglory

irlrobins wrote:

This is why i hate the SU. What a waste of time, deportation is not an issue that affects the average UCD student.

GRRR!!!

There were quite a few UCD students who were facing deportation threats two years ago. They'd probably disagree with that.

Dara McHugh's fine was 60 euro and that's all that was paid.

Just clarifying.

irlrobins

what? 5 out of 16000? Hardly significant.

60e? should have paid it himself.

Vainglory

5 out of 16,000? I'm not sure what statistics you're referring to there.
If it's UCD students, there are 22,000 of them.

And whether it's one student or fifty, if they're being threatened with deportation then they have a reasonable expectation that their Union will campaign actively in opposition to this.

irlrobins

Vainglory wrote:

5 out of 16,000? I'm not sure what statistics you're referring to there.
If it's UCD students, there are 22,000 of them.

And whether it's one student or fifty, if they're being threatened with deportation then they have a reasonable expectation that their Union will campaign actively in opposition to this.

22,000 it is.

Dunno about opposing their deportation. If they have no legal right to be here, then I'm not sure why the Union should support them. I mean if I'm convicted of drunk driving I'm sure the Union won't come to support me.

Maybe I'm comparing chalk with cheese.

combat_sombo

fair play vainglory, do your best to justify this.

Vainglory

UCDSU is an organisation that has democratically decided policy, and one of those policies is to oppose deportations especially in situations where compassionate leave to remain is a factor. Once someone has begun studying in a third level institution then that's a pretty good case to be allowed to remain and to get a qualification which can work for them and for the economy as a whole in the future.

All these students who were facing deportation were members of the Student Union and hence are entitled to be represented by those elected to represent them the same way that you or I are.

If there was ever a question of whether we "should" be doing this or not then that was decided on by a vote, as was the Dara McHugh fine. And as much as you may disagree with it, there'd be a hell of a lot more uproar if the Union started ignoring votes that were passed than there is when people disagree with democratically decided outcomes, which is of course their right.

All this shrieking about "the law, the law, it's against the law so we should never support it" deserves to be challenged too. The Irish deportation system is in direct contravention to the Geneva Convention which Ireland is signed up to. It was also against the law for Rosa Parks to refuse to give up her seat for a white person at the front of the bus in Alabama. But that doesn't make it right. Dissent is our right and we as a union can express that if we so wish via democratic means.

m1ke

On the deportation issue, mistakes have been known to happen. Remember a student was recently flown back from Nigeria because of an error that was later acknowledged. I would be disgusted to find out that UCDSU had not made representations on behalf of any students facing possible deportation. It is an issue that effects students and supporting demonstrations is entirely legitimate. Those who think it isn't are either too wrapped up in an old 20th century bog-idea of Ireland or some greed ridden celtic tiger b.s.

ghostchant

Was the guy who got arrested representing UCDSU? I didn't hear any mention of this protest prior to it happening from the union. So I'm guessing he was there representing himself. If that's the case then there's no justification in paying his fine. That's like the SU paying for my electricity bill, or something like that.

Vainglory

He is a UCDSU member and the action was in support of UCDSU policy.

ghostchant

If I went to the coca-cola factory and started causing trouble, would the SU pay my legal costs?

please no-one interpret that as a threat to actually cause trouble at the coke factory...I love coke :cool:

Mr.Nice Guy

This is absolutely disgraceful.

Why is our money being spent on this guy? Let him face the consequences of his own actions.

This guy has a political view which differs to mine yet he dips into MY pocket to sort HIS problems out. Madness.

As I and many others have been saying all along, it's about bloody time the Union took a NEUTRAL STANCE on political matters.

boneless

Did you all participate in the SU elections? Did you all vote? Did any of you consider going for election?

The SU is only as good as the memberships participation.

BTW, I agree that the fine should be paid by the SU; they had a mandate to set up the anti-deportation group.

irlrobins

nope. Got fed up of all these over eager people taking the time to come into the lecture theatre canvassing for votes, handing out flyers etc when they were trying to be elected.

Once elected did we ever see them come back into the same theatre to update us on what they're achieving or anything? Nope, hiding away in the SU office everyone of them.

What proportion of the electorate voted in the last SU elections? out of interest.

Red Alert

i voted in each and every SU election since i arrived in UCD - it's sad that people don't because then the union is left at the mercy of some people who try and usurp it for every cock and bull idea under the sun.

i discussed this deportation thing with a friend of mine who's heavily involved in amnesty international in another college. she says that the SU's role in all this should have been just a welfare one - advising, counselling and assisting (financially [that's ok!]) the students in question. organisations like amnesty (and a whole load of others) do great work campaigning about deportation and the like. if the SU stuck to dealing with student issues and saved big protests for things such as fees that affect all students things would be much better - as people who are really interested in issues such as deportation and human rights will do a much better job campaigning on them.

beanyb

irlrobins wrote:

Once elected did we ever see them come back into the same theatre to update us on what they're achieving or anything? Nope, hiding away in the SU office everyone of them.

In fairness to this years sabbats, they're doing a much better job than last years. There's plenty of Union activity about the place this year whether its a campaign or the bands playing every week.

And this is coming from someone who couldnt be less of an SU hack and who didnt bother to vote in the elections.

arbeitsscheuer

beanyb wrote:

In fairness to this years sabbats, they're doing a much better job than last years. There's plenty of Union activity about the place this year whether its a campaign or the bands playing every week.

Spot on. Fair play, after what was, imo, a pretty abysmal SU last year, with the exception of Scully, the Pres. Ironically, this year all the Sabbats have pulled their weight and really worked hard for us... With the exception of Carroll, the Pres.:D :rolleyes:

Still, probably better this way.

ferdi

yes this years SU at least is more active than last year but the sabbats are getting paid to work so they wont be getting any medals from me for doing their jobs.

Dave!

rainbow kirby wrote:

*facepalm*
That's all I gotta say.

Seconded.

Why did the guy get arrested, Vainglory? Surely if he's appearing in court over it, he must have done something illegal. I don't mind the SU rallying about deportation so much, but a member does something illegal, gets arrested, and you're spending our money to bail him out?!

What did he do? And should I expect the SU to pay for my legal costs should I get in trouble?

It sounds to me like the bloke's got loads of mates in the upper echelon of the SU, and they're using the Union's funds to help him. I'm probably wrong though.

Syth

I wonder can one leave the student's union. I'm going to see if I can. Just for the laugh. And to get some money back.

I think it would be a good way to force the union to become more relevant to the general student. If it was easy to leave the union and get your €30 or so in fees back, then I reckon loads of people would leave. The hacks would be left with a tiny union with a tiny mandate from the students and feck all budget. It would force them to make the union matter to most people.

That'd be democracy.

Mr.Nice Guy

Syth wrote:

I wonder can one leave the student's union. I'm going to see if I can. Just for the laugh. And to get some money back.

I think it would be a good way to force the union to become more relevant to the general student. If it was easy to leave the union and get your €30 or so in fees back, then I reckon loads of people would leave. The hacks would be left with a tiny union with a tiny mandate from the students and feck all budget. It would force them to make the union matter to most people.

That'd be democracy.

You have my vote!

Actually, would there be a way to set up another round of elections? Let's say a bunch of students demand the right to leave?

I'm sure it has happened before for a by-election. I'd love to see anti-Union candidates run for the Union!

ferdi

great idea, i'd say loads of people would want to leave - the average student would far prefer 30euro in their pockets rather than whatever the union does for them (tumbleweed..)

Dave!

Someone (not me) should start up their own seperate group that acts like the SU, only doesn't do all this anti-deportation crap! Have a little coup d'etat! It'd be great! Seriously, would that not work though? Just start up a seperate group, charge a bit of money to join, and get to work advertising, arguing for the students, etc.

I think that'd be cool :cool:

ferdi

you'd have no recognition from the college so you'd be powerless

Mr.Nice Guy

ferdi wrote:

you'd have no recognition from the college so you'd be powerless

Let's say you and a bunch of others ran in the elections, won, and then decided to carry out your work away from the Union? Technically you're part of the union but at the same time you're showing your opposition to them. Would that be feasible?

Rogue union members so to speak. That would be cool!

Dave!

How could you be powerless? If enough people join, then you've got a big enough mandate that the college CAN'T ignore you! Surely that'd be undemocratic if they start favouring 'this' particular group over 'this' particular group... The new group would still have grounds and a mandate to argue and discuss things with the college. I'm not saying they'd go around starting bookshops and the likes, but they'd be able to do plenty of things.

humbert

Don’t know enough about it to give a decent rant but it pisses me off to think that mine and someone elses 30e was spent bailing him out and I think it seriously detracts from the nobility of the deed when you go running to you mates to bail you out from the consequences with other peoples money.

Jonny Arson

Ah this is fantastic! I got caught stealing a Desperate Dan bar yesterday and I got a 60 yo-yo fine aswell. Thankfully the SU will pay it for me now..... woohoo!

:rolleyes:

Slash/ED

It comes as no suprise at all, which says it all. Utter nonsense.

Red Alert

A desperate dan bar? How/where did you get caught doing that?

To some of the posters above, it's actually good that the SU exists - i certainly wouldn't be on for fragmenting it, i'd prefer some sort of coup organised by the ordinary students of the council. the sabbats with the notable exception of James <Insert fianna fail membership card here> Caroll are doing an excellent job and thursday night live in particular has been really great. the shops are also brilliantly run and stock things people need at low prices, as are countless other union services. the problem is that the union's political/democratic/social/call-it-what-you-like conscience has been taken over by people more interested in non-student issues.

what we need are apolitical ordinary students (be they commitee members of societies or not) to feel that they can enter an election and win. the question is should such a grouping be set up, in essence a kind of mini political party with the sole aim of running the union for students benefit, not for special vested interest groups who would be better served elsewhere?

Syth

Red Alert wrote:

should such a grouping be set up, in essence a kind of mini political party with the sole aim of running the union for students benefit, not for special vested interest groups who would be better served elsewhere?

I'm a cynic, but that sounds like most of the other parties. And to be honest a lot of students couldn't care that much about the union because they don't think it affects them. I think if people started leaving en masse, it might be a wake up call. Basically I'm lazy and couldn't be bothered running for position, so I'd rather try to change the rules of the game.

Pythia

Is the SU saying that deportations should be gotten rid of forever? Let's make deportation illegal, illegal deportation for illegal immigrants!
Funny how Vainglory wasn't able to give a proper reponse to irlrobins comparison...

Red Alert

reading it back now i think the 'mini political party' was a very bad word choice. at least the 'coup' means that the union still has it's standing within the college. what's needed is a few people (even in the low double digits) who run on a no-nonsense apolitical "Back to basics action plan" or "Cut the crap" plan. the trouble with leaving is that basically you'd need ~500 people to leave to make any impression at all, and for the length of time any change would take you'd probably be at a loss - in theory you couldn't go to the student bar.

AngelofFire

The Union has the right to defend its members, Anti deportation has been the subject of many motions approved in council over the past few years. Darragh was defending the rights of immigrants according to the democratic mandate he was given in council. In the past students of UCD have been threatened with deportation orders, We can whinge all we want about how he was ''breaking the law'' but thats absurd because

1.The Department of Justice in carrying out many of these deportation acts have broken the geneva convention.

2. It is not a compareable to a case of a student getting drunk outside the bar or being caught shopliffting.

3. The law has been used to repress people in the past, for years homosexuals acts were criminal, and contraception was illegal, and to this very day women are not allowed make certain choices regarding their own body. The law does not always necessarily state what is good for the people We do not live in a 21st century Rome, where cesaer is always right.


Ideas of an ''apolitical'' union are most dubious. The issues that affect students such as fees, grants and cutbacks are of a political nature. From my experience many ''apolitical'' unions around the country, do very little to defend their members with regard to education and welfare issues even on a very basic level. about 3 years ago UCD had an ''apolitical'' union that did absolutely nothing to fight against cutbacks and the possible return of fees. Unions which call themselves apolitical are dominated by appathetic C.V. builiding careerist hacks. It is because of politicised activists that UCDSU is probably the best union in the country at standing up for students with regard to bread and butter issues like grants, and better funding for student services.

Red Alert

look if i carried out a straw poll in the engineering building i doubt very much anyone here really gives a toss about deportation issues. we comprise just less than a thousand people over here. it's not clear quite frankly who our representatives are because they disappear and then use my money to pay legal fees of thugs without asking me. i hardly call that an acceptable way of doing business.

Dave!

Can someone tell us why the guy was arrested? What law did he break?

AngelofFire

look if i carried out a straw poll in the engineering building i doubt very much anyone here really gives a toss about deportation issues

If you or your fellow class mates are unhappy about the unions policy with regard to anti deportation, you are more than entitled to challenge it using the democratic structures of UCDSU.

Can someone tell us why the guy was arrested? What law did he break?

Myself, himself and many other protestors were blockading a garda van outside the Garda National Immigration Beaureau, the garda van was about to take immigrants off to the airport for deportation (in doing so they were in breach of the geneva convention), the gardai got pretty rough with us after a while. I had to leave early so i didnt see the arrest. But Darragh has to appear in court.

Mr.Nice Guy

The Geneva Convention? Last time I checked Ireland was a sovereign state and the laws of the land should be respected. The idea that UCDSU is sticking its nose into issues relating to the Geneva Convention makes me sick to my stomach.

THEY ARE A STUDENT UNION.

Clearly this guy was in breach of IRISH LAW and alot of us UCD students don't want this guy getting support through OUR money.

It's a joke that my Student Union has become an apologist for criminal behaviour.

irlrobins

AngelofFire wrote:

If you or your fellow class mates are unhappy about the unions policy with regard to anti deportation, you are more than entitled to challenge it using the democratic structures of UCDSU.

so can u tell us how to table a motion that asks Darragh to pay his own fines, etc>

Stabshauptmann

The SU may do a lot of useless crap, irrelevent to students and waste a lot of money BUT the bar, shops and accomadation offices have had a MASSIVE impact on my student life. If a hord of ppl left the union, these cant survive

Stabshauptmann

A come on, an appologist for criminal behaviour. A lot of dissent across the globe and throughout time was deemed criminal at the time. What are the details of his arrest. If it was failure to comply with a garda direction eg stop protesting and move on, then pay his fine. Deportation is a student issue. But the SU should stay out of politics that dont effect students.
If he was Drunk and disorderly hang him by his testicals before he gets m money. My 2c

Red Alert

Deportation is not a student issue, it only becomes a student issue when it directly affects the welfare of students, and then should be dealt with as a welfare issue. Obviously if the government was thinking of deporting us all to Tasmania then the SU should take strong action (as well as telling us to bring shorts and SPF), but it's a minority interest which compared to fees/services/modularisation/take-your-pick it's pretty insignificant. Definitely not worth bringing UCDSU into disrepute with the law.

Mr.Nice Guy

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

A come on, an appologist for criminal behaviour. A lot of dissent across the globe and throughout time was deemed criminal at the time. What are the details of his arrest. If it was failure to comply with a garda direction eg stop protesting and move on, then pay his fine. Deportation is a student issue. But the SU should stay out of politics that dont effect students.
If he was Drunk and disorderly hang him by his testicals before he gets m money. My 2c

They are justifying their actions on the grounds that the Irish Government have been ignoring the Geneva Convention. That to me is apologising for criminal behaviour and I don't want my Union involved in that nonsense.

Just because the Irish Government might not be following the EU's environmental laws does not give me the right to break Irish environmental laws and start littering about the place.

If Dara McHugh wants to be seen as a martyr by breaking the law then that's his choice but let him do so without using my money and the money of other students.

This farcical business about UCDSU saving the world has gone on long enough. Some of these guys need to sort out their hero complex.

John_C

Tony McDonell, captain of the UCD soccer team, has to pay a 25 euro fine for getting a yellow card last weekend.

May I propose a motion to council that in future when the opposition has made three substitutions that the hard men of the soccer team be allowed to throw in the dangerous tackels safe in the knowledge that the SU will pick up the fines.

That'd be representing the students properly.

panda100

Chilax everyone!I do agree that the union should stand up for students whether it is just one student who is about to be deported or a hundred students complaining of high prices in hilpers.Just out of curiousity were the people in the garda van that he held up where they ucd students?As vainglory said ucd students were being deported TWO YEARS AGO-i was unaware that any ucd students still where?so is it really still an issue for the union this year?I'm relieved that charges werent pressed against this student and his fee's werent that high.However his actions at the protest where entirely his own and thererfore he should have paid the repercussions himself.Holding up a van for a few minutes is not going to solve the deportation problem.Its just a reckless and dangerous act.The union has really only encouraged people to do this again.What worries me now is that now the union have paid the way out for one protester they will have to pay out everyone.I am vehmently against abortion and there is an anti abortion protest on next month-maybe i might just go mad and spary paint the dail or something-since abortion is a matter that most definatly will affect a few woman in ucd i hope that when i get arrested the ucd will bail me out-only fair really since you represent ALL students however big the majority or minority
p.s Dont worry im not really going to get arrested!