F.L.A.G. mandate

boudica

I am a little confused with regard to the organization of FLAG.I would like to ask the organisers who are they and who are their members. What is there mandate and from who. When is their A.G.M.. How is it funded.

FLAG

FLAG, Firearms Legislation Action Group is a sub committee of the SSAI, formed in 2001 as a result of the ongong issues with firearms legislation, we operate under a madate given at the 2001 AGM of the NRPAI now SSAI. From a historical perspective you will need to review things like the Shooters Digest from 2001 to grasp the background.

FLAG is Chaired by myself Declan Keogh and is backed up by Terry Martin and Hugh Johnston, all with extensive experience in negotiating with DOJ and the Gardai.

boudica

Thank you for the reply, however, are F.L.A.G. funded by the S.S.A.I., do F.L.A.G. represent S.S.A.I. members only. What are the goals of F.L.A.G..What areas of shooting does it represent. Thank you again. BOUDICA

FLAG

FYI, FLAG being a sub committee of the SSAI represents the views of the SSAI with respect to legislative issues and in addition the views of the broader shooting community, who funds FLAG? FLAG sub committee has not sought funding for their day to day expenses instead like many voluntary workers, time taken off work, correspondence, phone calls are funded out of their own pockets. Some monies were raised by voluntary contribution over the last few years, some of this funding was used to pay legal fees generated in the course of activates since 2001, the remaining monies are accounted for by the SSAI Treasurer and all monies received are recorded and traceable. We have represented may cases and individuals over the years while we would like individuals to be members of SSAI, affiliated bodies or registered clubs we have always give advice freely. We work closely with the NARGC and have generally like minded views.

In general terms our objectives are to promote shooting sports at justice and Gardai level to protect what we have and ensure that the sport no matter what discipline is looked after. It is a complex area and not one that can be summarized in a couple of paragraphs.

Are you a member of a club?, affiliated association to the SSAI or an associate member of SSAI? If not why not!

Sparks

we have always give advice freely.

Just not information...

Gun Shy

FLAG wrote:

FYI, Some monies were raised by voluntary contribution over the last few years,

Declan

Our paths have crossed once or twice before up in Newry and the next time I'd like to make a contribution to FLAG, or perhaps you will accept a cheque in the post.

Appreciate the updates that you provide, and the blood, sweat and tears in the process

Sparks

MP,
First off, even the moderators cannot tell who is who on the forum, that's part of the design. So you may speculate all you wish, but you would not be able to prove anything; and so please refrain from personal accusations.

Secondly, I fail to see how asking straightforward questions which any member or associated member of the NRPAI is entitled to ask, can consitute a "set-up". Either Declan's doing things the right way, in which case "the truth shall set you free" springs to mind, or else there would be a serious reason for concern and any such questioning would be maligned by the term "set-up".

Chopperdog

Whats happenning here sparks???
Seems that your current rant is way off topic. I know that it doesnt take much encouragement from anyone to get you going, but jeez, someone pays Declan a compliment and you go off on a totally unprovoked tirade. Being on the offensive is starting to get to you by the look of it, are they white coats I see in the distance ???

Sparks

It was in regard to MP's post which has since been removed by MP Chopper, so you're seeing it a tad out of context.

FLAG

Hi Folks: From where I am sitting Boudicas query was indeed a set up, one would expect that someone from the midlands would be very much up to date with all the happenings in this area when one reads what was published in the October Shooters digest, after all soon they will be advising governement on firearms legislative change and range construction!

Dvs

FLAG wrote:

Hi Folks: From where I am sitting Boudicas query was indeed a set up, one would expect that someone from the midlands would be very much up to date with all the happenings in this area when one reads what was published in the October Shooters digest, after all soon they will be advising governement on firearms legislative change and range construction!

It does not matter if this thread is a setup or not,
The fact that Declan, can and has responded here and to all other questions,
with facts and up to date information, is a great and positive addition to the forum.

Sparks, please refrain from your sniping comments everytime Declan posts something, it really is unnecessary.
Dvs.

Sparks

Dvs wrote:

The fact that Declan, can and has responded here and to all other questions

That's not a fact Dvs. There are 28 unanswered questions sitting right here that Declan did not deign to answer, and that's just from on here. And these aren't tough questions; "What are your plans for the rest of your term as the head of FLAG?" for example. They are also not trivial questions: "How much money does FLAG have available to it to cover costs in the event of a case being awarded against it? Has it risen from the amount you quoted to me a year or so ago, which was about a quarter of what would be required (and which was then only promised by unnamed individuals, as opposed to actual money sitting in an account)?" for example. And I have yet to get a plain, straightforward answer from Declan if I ask him a question about something he says, not in over five years. All I've ever seen has been hostility and uncivil responses to such questions.

Sparks, please refrain from your sniping comments everytime Declan posts something, it really is unnecessary.

If it were really unnecessary Dvs, I wouldn't do it. The behaviour I have seen consistently from him over the past five years leads me to believe that whatever about other disciplines, Declan is not representing my disciplines fairly and equitably.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Hi Folks: From where I am sitting Boudicas query was indeed a set up, one would expect that someone from the midlands would be very much up to date with all the happenings in this area when one reads what was published in the October Shooters digest, after all soon they will be advising governement on firearms legislative change and range construction!

You've noone but yourself to blame for that Declan. I was there at the NRPAI AGM a few years ago when the MRC came to the NRPAI asking for a fullbore NGB under the auspices of the NRPAI. You personally were amongst the first to turn them down flat. If they had a need and the NRPAI wouldn't fill it, did you think they'd just go away? And now they are the internationally accredited NGB and the sport's administration is even more complicated.

Dvs

Sparks wrote:

.
If it were really unnecessary Dvs, I wouldn't do it. The behaviour I have seen consistently from him over the past five years leads me to believe that whatever about other disciplines, Declan is not representing my disciplines fairly and equitably.

Listen Sparks,
it seems to me, that you feel your wants and needs are not being addressed by the members of the SSAI committee or Declan with Flag, and you are apparently, pretty sure of what needs to be done to put everything right, with regard to shooting sports in Ireland, so why don't you go forward to take a place on the SSAI committee or as Flag representitive to deal with the DOJ and the Garda.

If nothing else, it will give you an opportunity to see how many others support your views and if its all as easy to please everyone, all of the time, as you seem to think.

I must admit, I'm curious if you act in person, demanding every point be justified, demanding people explain themselves to your satisfaction, as you do here in cyberspace ?

No matter what Declan says, in response to any question you pose,
you never accept it and always want to play,
internet hairsplitting tennis adnausium,
Declan, does not want to play it, and I cant blame him,
nobody here with two brain cells to rub together wants to watch it, or read it.
it's not clever, amusing, or helpful to shooting sports in Ireland.

Dvs.

boudica

Flag,thank You For Answering My Questions, But Your Last Reply As A Representative For Flag Is Very Poor. Did I Miss Something.

Flag Gets Its Mandate From The SSAI, But Does Not have Any Mandate From The Wider Shooting Community.?????
Surely Flag Should Be Building Bridges With All The Shooting Community to secure the futher of shooting in ireland
Flag Is Not Truly Represenitive Of Shooting In Ireland is it.

Surely it is time for a more representive body.

p.s. there was no set up just questions which I am sure you did not mind answering

civdef

I'm curious as to how this "wider mandate" would work - compulsory voting for all holders of firearm certificates perhaps?


What exactly is the "wider shooting community", come to think of it, and are FLAG claiming to represent it anyway?

Kimber

Hi Gang,

Can someone tell me who exactly runs this forum?

I have just got sick to the stomach with some of the Rubbish being placed on the Forum. In an age where we are suppose to responsabil Firearm Owners.
The level of discecting statements to almost cheap cheesy Court Room debates is enough to make our foreign counterparts laugh at us.
And yes the have, they are still laughing at us and will continue.

When I see garbage like this just clog up the Forum. I cannot blame any Firearms Officer from shaking his head when a new application arrives at a station. I would not take some of the people serious here at all if I was a Firearms Officer. I would without one thought tell some of you to get out of the station. But I am not a Firearms Officer. I am a shooter just like you and I am embarressed beyond believe and I have suprised myself that I feel this way. It must have taken a lot of garbage to turn my view around.

Above all we must project a positive perception at all times when on the Internet or Public Forums. Drop the rubbish debates. Loose the Machine Gun Jpegs. Loose the Gung Ho proverbs. It's not doing us any good at all.
Please Just trust me on that one!

Smartin yourselfs up. Smartin the Shooting Sport Up.
Your Firearms have never been as close to be taken off you than before.
Please trust me on that one also!

This is friendly advise. The smart will heed and stop and assess.
The Cowboys will look for explanations and post mortoms.
Regards

Sparks

Can someone tell me who exactly runs this forum?

It's a forum Kimber. No-one "runs" it. Moderators are there to ensure the charter's followed; that's about it. As to the implication that anyone who asks questions of those claiming to represent them is an irresponsible cowboy, that's simply wrong-headed. Read your Pericles.

We do not say that a man who has no interest in politics minds his own business; we say he has no business here at all.

FLAG

Well Boudica

For some one who knew little about FLAG I must have been remarkably informative in my brief summary or else you know more than you let on, I would suspect that the latter be the case.

With respect to whom we represent, we can only represent the people who wish to be represented, there are more than 235,000 licensed firearms in Ireland, it would be an impossible task to represent every ones views and in any case the vast majority of the 220k license holders do not wish to be represented by anyone.

FLAG genesis was very straightforward, from 1995 to 2001 we met with, discussed with, submitted to and generally were on our knees to the DOJ and the Gardai. It appeared that drastic action was called for and FLAG was formed in order to do what needed for a very narrow group of people, those wishing to own and use rifles >.270, those wishing to reload, and those wishing to participate in pistol shooting as well as a significant number of people who had pistols taken in 1972 and not returned. In 2001 through significant frustration with lack of progress the Firearms Legislation Action Group was set up and that is exactly what it is, the purpose of FLAG is to effect appropriate change to the legislation to allow for the above activities.

I would say there has been significant change effected by our activities, when the CJB is enacted we will see reloading catered for, we have already seen the reintroduction of pistols and rifles >.270, these changes did not happen by themselves and I can assure you they were not as a result of any single one action.

Building of bridges to further the future of shooting sports in Ireland is not our focus, I do not disagree that it needs to be done however I believe we have represented those within SSAI and affiliated clubs well, of course some will disagree like Mark who even if represented by God himself will have something to post in response, remarkable statistic do you know that Mark has posted a little less than 5,000 posts on the forum, averaging 5 per day, does the man have nothing else to do, in any case I digress.

You seem to infer that the SSAI does not represent the “wider shooting community” and that it is time for a more representative body, from what I know there is only one club who feels that they are not represented and indeed they have distanced themselves from all established shooting associations here in Ireland preferring to be affiliated to bodies across the water. And in my view are well on the way to significantly fragmenting the sport. It is clear from where I sit that you are part of that club and your questions have been delivered to engineer the situation where by you could make the comment with respect to a more “representative body” Doesn’t wash!

I note you were on and off the boards through yesterday evening and only posted a reply to my comment at 02:32, presumably you needed to have a committee meeting in the meantime. I'm only human and I get a bit tierd of the game!

Clearly the old adage applies, you can please some of the people some of the time but you cannot please all of the people all of the time, I’m afraid it is true in shooting sports also. Apologies to all those observers wishing to enjoy the sport I get a bit tired of the BS, particularly because people hide behind the assumed names they use on the boards, to pose generally hypothetical questions and probably have contributed little to the sport ever.

boudica

Thank you for the reply, flag.
I did not say I knew nothing about FLAG. I only needed clarification.
your comment regarding my entrys to and from the boards, only means I came and went on the boards thats all, besides you should not be stalking a lady.....what would your wife say..... assuming you are married.

The point I am trying to get accross is that surely the shooting community needs to unite as one under one banner whether we like each other or not, and fight the good cause for shooting sports in IRELAND AND GUARD IT AGAINST THOSE WHO WOULD TAKE IT AWAY FROM US.

BY THE WAY FLAG TRY AND LIGHTEN UP, THE BOARDS, IS NOT LIFE AND DEATH, IT'S A DISCUSSION FORUM.

Clare gunner

Kimber wrote:

Hi Gang,

Can someone tell me who exactly runs this forum?

I have just got sick to the stomach with some of the Rubbish being placed on the Forum. In an age where we are suppose to responsabil Firearm Owners.
The level of discecting statements to almost cheap cheesy Court Room debates is enough to make our foreign counterparts laugh at us.
And yes the have, they are still laughing at us and will continue.

When I see garbage like this just clog up the Forum. I cannot blame any Firearms Officer from shaking his head when a new application arrives at a station. I would not take some of the people serious here at all if I was a Firearms Officer. I would without one thought tell some of you to get out of the station. But I am not a Firearms Officer. I am a shooter just like you and I am embarressed beyond believe and I have suprised myself that I feel this way. It must have taken a lot of garbage to turn my view around.

Above all we must project a positive perception at all times when on the Internet or Public Forums. Drop the rubbish debates. Loose the Machine Gun Jpegs. Loose the Gung Ho proverbs. It's not doing us any good at all.
Please Just trust me on that one!

Smartin yourselfs up. Smartin the Shooting Sport Up.
Your Firearms have never been as close to be taken off you than before.
Please trust me on that one also!

This is friendly advise. The smart will heed and stop and assess.
The Cowboys will look for explanations and post mortoms.
Regards

And what then do you propose we discuss,argue or debate here?
This idea that we should be a PC sanitised,emotionless bunch of Robots who shoot is actually more revolting.No matter how much we clean up our acts,win gold medals,or shoot PC guns.It will NEVER be enough for the anti gun brigade,because they hate an inanimate object we use ,a gun in any shape or form.Have you read the UK cyber shooters,or some of the US boards???We are quite civilised here.

As for this Sparks/FLAG bitch fest.There is a major INMHO personality clash rather than anything else.Personally, I wish the two of them would just agree to disagree,and quit bitching like a married couple over every imagined slight and snipe.
I would suggest a sticky thread called the bitch&moan or personal issues ,or the back alley thread.Where anyone who has an issue with somone else can go "out the back"so to speak and have it out with them and let the rest of us read the more revelant on topic posts?

skellig

boudica a lady well well !! now there is a nice surprise. i have always said there should be more ladies in the sport.The more the merrier
I do believe in equal rights so you have to take the same flak as everyone else from what I have been reading so far im sure your well able for that .
You asked a good question no harm in that and for some reason it has hit some nerves .which makes you think .
hope you answer this for me flag thinks your a set up God knows why.
are you a double agent , kgb perhaps:cool:

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

I can assure you they were not as a result of any single one action.

And with the same degree of proof, I'd say FLAG wasn't the vanguard or the majority of the reason for this. It is too small, and too underfunded. If we're honest about our political weight in this country, we'd be pointing out that the scrap between the Gardai and the DoJ (and specifically the Minister) at the time was a lot more influential than court cases that never went to court but got settled on the steps leaving no legal precedent in their wake!

Building of bridges to further the future of shooting sports in Ireland is not our focus, I do not disagree that it needs to be done however I believe we have represented those within SSAI and affiliated clubs well

Over the years, you have attacked me personally with threats of high court action for reporting what the high court said, attacked my sport by criticising it to the Sports Council, the source of it's funding, and generally act in a belligerent manner to anyone who doesn't agree with you (such as the disgraceful manner in which you responded in the Irish Shooters Digest to a letter from an NRPAI member who complained when the advertised Pistol Safety lecture to be presented at the NRPAI AGM was cancelled without notice, or the manner in which you fought with at least one NTSA club over matters of personal security and contact addresses, or the large number of abusive comments you've made towards myself and several others over the years). This is representing people well?

, of course some will disagree like Mark who even if represented by God himself will have something to post in response,

I love the way that simple basic questions that I have a perfect right to ask, transform me into some form of anti-target-shooting ogre in your eyes Declan. Did you ever think that maybe if you just answered the questions that we could all get along a lot better?

remarkable statistic do you know that Mark has posted a little less than 5,000 posts on the forum, averaging 5 per day, does the man have nothing else to do, in any case I digress.

You also insult personally, which I'm coming to expect, but which is still against the rules of the forum.

You seem to infer that the SSAI does not represent the “wider shooting community” and that it is time for a more representative body, from what I know there is only one club who feels that they are not represented and indeed they have distanced themselves from all established shooting associations here in Ireland preferring to be affiliated to bodies across the water.

If you really only know of one, you have a short memory. I can name at least three in the Republic alone, and a lot more if you look at the entire island.

And in my view are well on the way to significantly fragmenting the sport.

You were the one who refused to back them to set up a fullbore NGB within the framework of the NRPAI though, weren't you?

Kimber

I for one going back many moons ago.
With a one shot bolt action Rifle that could shoot around corners asked for help when I wanted a 10/22 SA. Probably the first in Ireland. My F.O. made it extreemly hard. I reckoned it was one I would not get.
I picked up the phone one day and rang a number. The guy picked up and I identified myself and explained my concern. I could here the sound of dinner plates in the backround. I stated that I would call back when the gentleman finished his dinner with his family. The gentleman would not here of it and proceeded to give advice and formulate a plan. During all that time I could not fathum why this gent would take time out of his family dinner to give me instruction. But he did.

The plan worked and years on I have no bother at all anymore.

Over the next few years going to competitions I ended up meeting this gent in person and thanking him for his help.

I still see this gent trying to get from A to B in other competitions around the country. In the course of trying to get from A to B he may be stopped 2 or 3 times. Fellow shooters asking for advice so on and so forth.

Last time this gent was about to go on the firing line when a fellow shooter asked for advice. Did this person put the shooter off. No. Gave them a hearing and gave them a plan. Shooter walked away happy. This man was left with no time for mental preperation for his own competition.
These people happened to be from all walks of disciplines might one add.

This is only the human side. The more I got involved in the shooting sports the more my phone would ring day and night. I then passed on what was passed on to me.

My point is this gent I only met in person briefly over the years has given and still gives the beginners, and advanced shooters of all disciplines the information that is required to enable shooters to shoot. Nothing more nothing less.

There is personnal sacrifice involved here. Time is taken from family and personnal life.

My thanks to Declan Keogh for the help you have given to me over the years.
Their are others that have helped also. But today my thanks is to Mr. Keogh.

There is no denying this fact for me. Other people may differ. Fine.
I know what I know to date from Declan Keogh and others like him.

From the day I purchased a single shot Rifle 16 years ago to present.
I have been positively brought forward to the shooting scene by the SSAI, NASRC and FLAG. In that time I and my fellow shooters around me have enjoyed a hassle free trip. Thats saying a lot for the Culture in this Country.

Change is on the horizon. Unity of Bodies could prevail. Some Bodies will go untouched. Some won't. The divides are down to personal grievences only.
This is the rock that some Shooting Disiplines will perish on.

We are inacting almost the exact same history of some other Nations where the fragmenting started through personal grievences. With fragmentation unity was lost. Leverage was lost. Alot was lost.

I know of one Body that has given me Instructor Certification. Might I add they know their business when it comes to Training. Yes they have a second ammendment. But their Unity has the power to sway the outcome of a Presidency. These guys/ladies are on full time wages by the way that sit down with their DOJ. That is their full time job. I personnaly know one of these people and he makes a good living "very good living".

But Declan Koegh when you start getting a full time wage for your efforts.
Make sure you charge well.
Regards

Sparks

Well Kimber, I'm glad you had a good experience. As I've related above, I had experiences which were as bad as yours were good. There is no denying this fact for me. Other people may differ. Fine. But I'm still entitled to ask questions of him so long as he claims to represent me and mine. And that fact is the same no matter what you think of him.

And seperately, on the Unity idea - it won't work the way it's being done. A body whose council are not elected by the members directly; which has a long precedent of ignoring even it's own rules; and which has directly opposed the interests of at least one member NGB? That's not something any sane informed person would row in behind. And there's a lot that would have to be done to convince many people otherwise; and starting off by "rebranding" itself in an invalid AGM which was held in as underhanded a fashion as I've seen in a long time and then making unsubtle threats against a member NGB at their AGM - that ain't the way to start, before I hear all this "oh, we've new people now and it's all changed" line. And the fact that four or five years ago, when we went to Declan to privately discuss this very idea, that he used it to attack us at the Sports Council, that's a pretty decent indicator of what we expect this time as well.

Oh, and for the record - we cannot merge with another body. Doing so would lose our ISSF recognition, which would immediately devolve to the ICPSA and could not be recovered without taking away the ICPSA's ISSF recognition for shotgun. So unify in a simplistic fashion as you're promoting and you'll destroy olympic rifle and pistol shooting in this country.

boudica

Well skellig, there is no set up. Just some people are more suspicious than others. and well who can blame them when dealing with anonymous names.
I will say that I am a lot clearer on the organniseation of FLAG.

Anyway keep this to yourself, and under pain of death, I AM AN AGENT FOR THE CIA........ SORRY MISTAKE ....ICA..(IRISH COUNTRY WOMANS ASSOCIATION).... ANYWAY GOT TO GO BAKE A CAKE.. AM I ON THE RIGHT FORUM ......CAKES ..RIFLES.... AND FEMALES.....HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. TALK LATTER BOYS , LOVE THE GOURGOUS, BOUDICA.

gouda

Amen to that,Kimber. Now let's hear from Sparks supporters about his positive contributions to various disciplines,not just target shooting (but of course they can be included).

Sparks

Are you being serious Gouda?

tireur

In response to Gouda, I feel I must join in here to offer support to Sparks. Gouda is implying either that Sparks has not contibuted to Shooting in Ireland or that no one would support him. I have to say that he has made a major contribution to the Target shooting community and he would receive much support from them. We should not judge a person merely from the way they behave on the boards. We should take into account their track record in the sport and Gouda does not seem willing to do this.

skellig

I have to say about our sport it is one of the only sports where we are under scrutiny from the doj and antis. I have gathered a lot of info from what i have read over the last few weeks on this shooting forum.I also realise there appears to be a score to settle between sparks and flag .If I were to adjudicate their debate my ruling would be in favour of sparks totally +utterly without any points for flag.
reasons being----sparks has conducted himself clearly and professionaly in his opinions he has not avoided ans questions and has advised and helped at his best to all who sought advice.Whether or not you agree with his ideals it is obvious his heart is in the right place for the sport ----v. important.
As for flag for someone who claims to represent shooting in Ireland -how wrong can he be?From what ive read when asked a question clearly he has yet to ans.and it is obvious to us all he cannot or is not able to do so which leads me to believe what benefit.is a person who cannot ans the questions he doesent like. The questions asked do not demean his character in anyway, Is this a man to represent anyone in this sport?
As for his constant sniping at the midland ranges whats that all about--why ? ? ? I have been on several ranges througout the world and more importantly on the ranges of ireland and one of the greatest you will see is the midlands ranges.It is obvious to all :the hard work ,effort time and dedication employed here to facilitate us with all aspects of shooting/clay pidgeon /smallbore /long range to 600yds and from what i hear soon to be 1000 yds and while im at it thanks to people like Frank Brophy and the nargc who are soley responsible for the return of the pistols which is also available on the midland ranges
This range improves continouslywith no thanks to flag.
A question to flag ---who is fragmenting the sport? from where im standing its not the midlands they have a range on this island that every shooter can be proud of wherever they go.As for refusing you and the doj admission to that range i find it hard to believe

---

can you elaborate on that although i believe you will fail to ans as you do to sparks


Readers draw your own conclusion its time to wake up and smell the coffee



As for sparks i have never had the pleasure to meet you but i am sure if i ever need advice or information on the sport of shooting i know who to ask sparks

---

you can be assured of an ans whether it is right or wrong

FLAG

First off, I must apologise unreservedly to all members of the shooting board, it is clear that I have let my personal feelings colour my responses on a number of occasions. In posting in the name of FLAG, that is clearly unacceptable, although unlike many others my identity is no secret. This is not professional and will not happen again.

Skellig with regards to your post, the point you make about being under scrutiny by the DOJ and others is absolutely correct, do you not think that they keep a close eye on boards like this one and when they see the carry on it certainly weakens our position for sure. With respect to Sparks questions if they were reasonable and my answers accepted without been torn apart then I would have answered all his questions. I could not keep up with him when I posted a response 10 more questions were asked, I did not have the time to spend answering an individuals mountain of queries so I signed off the debate as follows:
“Because of the volumes of critical analysis of my responses to your queries it is clear that no matter what I say you will have something further to add and tear my responses apart, I really do not have time for this, so the discussion is closed as far as I am concerned. You will note this comment is added during my lunch-time, I have an honest living to earn and I intend to get back to it.”
I have not been constantly sniping at the midland rifle range, my posts to previous points raised did not name the range, you did.

As I said and I will say it again if you think any one action or any one body was totally responsible for the return of pistols you are sadly mistaken, I never claimed sole responsibility for any achievements with respect to rifles, pistols, reloading or anything else.

You asked a direct question with respect to the Midlands Rifle Club and the request by the SSAI to facilitate a visit to the range by a senior official of the DOJ: As a member MRC I visit the range on Sunday 20th February this year, I met with an official of the MRC and put it to him the request to bring a senior DOJ official to the MRC, I was told that the MRC would not allow the SSAI to bring the DOJ official to the range-FACT.

Sadly as a result of the unwelcome attitude of the MRC official and the refusal to facilitate the visit I resigned from the MRC. I do not doubt that the facility that the MRC is anything but excellent, unfortunately the interpersonal skills of some of the individuals leave a lot to be desired, and least anyone think differently I stood on the bog when it was just that and provided much information in the early days of the formation of the club, how quickly people forget.

We had very successful visits to ranges in NI and North County Dublin some weeks later.

From now on when posting as FLAG I will restrict my comments to the business of FLAG and nothing more.

FLAG

Attached is extracts from the 2nd stage debate of the CJB, I am delighted to report the Minister putting on the record the positive contributions made by the shooting organisations namely the NARGC and the SSAI. It is particularly pleasing to be recognised by the Minister for making positive contributions to the pending changes. Perhaps it may enlighten some of our critics that we truly have made a positive impact with government.

skellig

In regard to personal feelings getting you poor PR or respect you have that one correct and as i know you i have a feeling you cant teach an old dog new tricks

In regard to the doj keeping an eye on boards its all the more reason to stay off.Talk about waking up and smelling the coffee "come on" ! ! !

As for sparks question "I know" you cant ans it because (providing you ans truthfully)it would really muck you up ! !

You have been sniping at the midlnds range .what other range is there in the midlands worth mentioning especially to invite to if there is let me know (doubt it very much) I wont insult anyones intelligence by explaining that one flag

---

how strong has the coffee to be! ! !

It is my opinion that flag had nothing to do with bringing back any pistol \any other firearm of interest to the shooters of ireland At least the midland range has facilitaed the most important ingredient a range not waffle

As for you and the official of the doj not allowed visit the mrc range this is an out and out lie !! Would you care to rephrase that statement how pathetic can you get . Im calling now on an official of the mrc to back m e up on my statements and put everyone in the know as to how it really is.
From what i have heard if half of it is true then flag hang your head in shame !
It is my belief when you stood in the bog you recommended a lorry trailer to shoot out of at the time (paddywack set up) thanks a lot !


Whatever about North County Dublin being a successful visit (well it would have to be its inside the pale) im not so sure your visit to Northern Ireland was what you expected.

FLAG DO US ALL A FAVOUR AND DISSOLVE YOURSELF

FLAG

Clearly you are poorly informed, read what the Minister had written into the record of the House of the Oireachtas with respect to our discussions with the DOJ since 1995 and how we have represented the sport.

From the tone of your post you are really not a nice person and one that I am very glad that I do not have any dealings with. I and my colleagues who have been the core negotiation group with the DOJ and the Gardai have a lot to be proud of and how dare an an anonominous faceless individual such as you make such harsh statements about anyone particularly as you are clearly unaware of our activities over the years.

civdef

OK, here we go again..

If people are going to start accusing others of lying, it's a lot fairer for all involved if they don't do so anonymously when the target of the accusations has made their identity known.

Riggser

If you have a serious comment to make to another board member sending a private message to that person(s) might be the best option for all.

This thread is on it's way to being closed.

Clare gunner

"The first item on any organisations agenda in Ireland.The Split"
Brendan Behan

Whilst there has never been and quite obvisouly never will be any eye to eye seeing between FLAG and Sparks .It is a GREAT pity that two obvisouly knowledgeable people would try an cooperate to advance the shooting sports in Ireland.:(
But,I have to say this is very Irish.We are all fighting amongst ourselves,and somone else can walk in and take over or legislate for us for our "own good".
Dont worry though,any organisation I have ever been involved in from scuba diving,flying,shooting to professional organisations have ALL had this kind of nonsensical infighting and point scoring.When somthing goes right everyone wants the credit.When it goes wrong everyone lays the blame on each other.Amazes me we as a nation ever get anything done at all.But then if our esteemed"leaders" are still fighting the civil war in the Dail,can we expect no other in the pouplation?:rolleyes:
So I wouldnt be too worried about the DOJ ,antis,GCN,New world order,etc reading this board.They will see we are no different than anyone else on being unified or capable of organising the proverbial drinking session in a brewery.Nor do I think they are going to discover any crucial top secret info on an open forum.So unless we start posting budgets,alt contingency plans etc ,let them look.I mean ,WE can read their boards too.;)

So folks can we come to some sort of consensus about things?Like maybe a sticky thread where we can air personal opinions,moans and groans etc about each other and keep the remainder of the threads revelant and factual to their topics,more or less?

skellig

"poorly informed" the minister and house of oireachtas believe that and youd believe anything no wonder you got nowhere. Politics and truth dont always mix! thought everyone knew that.


In regard to me not being a nice person (well a boo hoo) everyone has to handle controversy and by the way I
am actually a very nice person but I speak as I find warts and all!!!!!!!


I know you mean well and I do appreciate your efforts for the sport whether I agree with your system or not .

Just lay off the Midlands thats all . Lets try and keep it proffessional and not get emotional and the best of luck to all invovled in the interest of our sport

cycllops

All,

It seems to me that we have a huge variation in opinion, and we also have many different representative bodies. There is no unity, due to the parocialism of the irish psyche, and the vested interests of all involved.
Live with it, and hope for the best...


My background...

Age 37
Live in mid Cork
2 Shotguns - clays and game.
1 22lr
1 centrefire
member of MRC. Make regular treks up the country
not a member of a local game club - can't house a dog, and closed shop anyway.

Since I was 17.
.Lost 400 acres thanks to development and a golf course.
.Lost 100 acres thanks to an idiot falling on a farmers land and attempting to claim. He was trespassing by the way!.
.Cork county is full of bungalows! you can use 22s and shotguns. Try and shoot centrefire!


I read the ISD, and all I see is acrimony between affiliated clubs. Dirty linen in public. All forms of PROs /Chairmen should be elected for people skills, and not to fill dead mens shoes, or loyalty.


I appreciate the efforts of all people who have taken on / worked with the DOJ. We are in a very different position today compared to 1986 when I started. Thank you all


And by the way, I have no problems with choice, but for gods sake stop harping on about .50 cal rifles and H&K semi/full autos. What is the point. If you need need that kind of stimulation buy Guns and Ammo, or if serious Join an army.


Keep it positive. We are gaining ground. We will lose it if we keep having these hissy fits.


yours in frustration,


cycllops

boudica

Amen To That, Cycllops

jaycee

Well said that man..:cool:

Rovi

And I'd like to second that, mister chairman.

Although, I want to see what sort of scope mount he has on the rifle.
What with his one eye, and all-




Hi cycllops, welcome!

.

cycllops

very very close resemblance.

at least I dont need to keep one eye closed when scoping...

Gallery

Sparks wrote:

You've noone but yourself to blame for that Declan. I was there at the NRPAI AGM a few years ago when the MRC came to the NRPAI asking for a fullbore NGB under the auspices of the NRPAI. You personally were amongst the first to turn them down flat. If they had a need and the NRPAI wouldn't fill it, did you think they'd just go away? And now they are the internationally accredited NGB and the sport's administration is even more complicated.

Who are an Internationally Accredited NGB ? News to me and I am involved in the sport with 30 years. The only NGB for rifle and pistol shooting is the NRPAI (SSAI).

Lads its about time Sparks and Flag got their act together. It's painful at this stage - Sparks, take a back seat for a while. The sport could do with your knowledge in a positive light.

Also where did the NRAI come from ? Are they recognised by the ISC and other bodies.

jaycee

Who are an Internationally Accredited NGB ?

the NRAI are recognised by the N.R.A.U.K.

boudica

Welcome Gallery, Hows Every Body In Cork.

You Must Have Your Head Stuck In The Sand Down There,
Educate Yourself, And Read This Very Carefuly: And Repeat After Me.

The National Rifle Association Of Ireland (N.R.A.I.) Is The NGB In The Republic Of Ireland For (1) Long Range Target Rifle,
(2) F-class And
(3) Match Rifle

The NRPAI/SSAI Had There Chance Some Years Ago, When Asked By M.N.S.C.I..to Set Up A Committee To Organise Long Range Rifle Shooting In Ireland, It Was Refused by N.R.P.A.I.

So If You Are Around For Thirty Years, Where Have You Been.

Sparks Is Still Waiting For Flag To Answer Many Of His Questions???

Being Recognised By The ISC Is In Hand, As Are A Lot Of Other Things To Do With Long Range Rifle Shooting.


N.R.A.I. Was Born Out Of The Members At M.N.S.C.I.. It Is Recognise By International Confederation Of Fullbore Rifle Associations (I.C.F.R.A..) Which The NRAI Have A Seat And Voting Rights On.

Other Countrys Which Recognise The NRAI Are N.R.A.U.K..-South Africa America-germany-france Etc,etc.

THE N.R.A.I. ARE HERE TO STAY, I REPEAT "ARE HERE TO STAY," SHALL I SHOUT IT LOUDER,ARE HERE TO STAY

SO FLAG, NRPAI/SSAI AND LRRA CAN GO AND...............UNLESS THEY WANT TO JOIN THE NRAI OF COURSE

SO WHERE " HAVE" YOU BEEN FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS

X THE GOURGOUS BOUDICA

MP

boudica wrote:

Welcome Gallery, Hows Every Body In Cork.

You Must Have Your Head Stuck In The Sand Down There,
Educate Yourself, And Read This Very Carefuly: And Repeat After Me.

The National Rifle Association Of Ireland (N.R.A.I.) Is The NGB In The Republic Of Ireland For (1) Long Range Target Rifle,
(2) F-class And
(3) Match Rifle

The NRPAI/SSAI Had There Chance Some Years Ago, When Asked By M.N.S.C.I..to Set Up A Committee To Organise Long Range Rifle Shooting In Ireland, It Was Refused by N.R.P.A.I.

So If You Are Around For Thirty Years, Where Have You Been.

Sparks Is Still Waiting For Flag To Answer Many Of His Questions???

Being Recognised By The ISC Is In Hand, As Are A Lot Of Other Things To Do With Long Range Rifle Shooting.


N.R.A.I. Was Born Out Of The Members At M.N.S.C.I.. It Is Recognise By International Confederation Of Fullbore Rifle Associations (I.C.F.R.A..) Which The NRAI Have A Seat And Voting Rights On.

Other Countrys Which Recognise The NRAI Are N.R.A.U.K..-South Africa America-germany-france Etc,etc.

THE N.R.A.I. ARE HERE TO STAY, I REPEAT "ARE HERE TO STAY," SHALL I SHOUT IT LOUDER,ARE HERE TO STAY

SO FLAG, NRPAI/SSAI AND LRRA CAN GO AND...............UNLESS THEY WANT TO JOIN THE NRAI OF COURSE

SO WHERE YOU BEEN THE LAST 30 YEARS

WOW! What a reply, it should go a long way to recruiting new members to the NRAI. Think of the anger flowing through boudica's body right now. Wouldn't you just love to be in the company of the members of the NRAI on a range with firearms and ammunition? What a bloodbath there could be! Send me an application form,quick. Incidentally, isn't the I.C.F.R.A. made up of permanent members from the Commonwealth and other countries are associate members? Can you clarify ,please.

boudica

Well Mp My Hormones Are A Little Bouncy At The Moment So I Am A Little Tetchey. And All You Big Boys Out There Are So Big And Strong??????

But Mp, What Ever You Think You Know, Guess Who's Going To The World Championships IN F-CLASS, ETC, ETC. WHAT 'S YOUR ADDRESS FOR AN APPLICATION FORM.
The Gourgous Boudica X

skellig

To Be Honest I Think Its Flag That Should Take A Back Seat And Perhaps After An Appropriate Break And Rest He Might Be Able To Answer Sparks Questions!!!!!!


Quote:: "where Did The N.r.a.i Come From " Where Have You Been Hibernating Or What???:(
I Also Have Been Shooting For Thirty Years And That Includes All Type Of Shooting, Deer Stalking,game Shooting ,target Shooting Etc.
For Twenty Five Of Those Years I Never Heard Of Or Knew Anything About The N.r.p.a.i (what Does That Tell You )

However I Think Things Are Changing For The Sport Of Shooting More Shooters Are Getting Involved In Target Shooting And This Has To Be A Good Thing.-- Wouldnt You Agree?

In Regards To Recognition For N.r.a.i From The I.s.c And S.s.a.i Personally I Think "who Cares " At The End Of The Day Its What The Shooters Care For Thats A Hell Of A Lot More Important ---dont You Think!!!!!!!!!

skellig

I cant blame Boudica for getting frustrated although his good humour remains intact! He is propably fed up wondering how long it takes for some to understand the N.R.A.I set up.
Its not rocket science !!!!!!
AS for recruiting new members to the N.R.A.I (all these questions and confusion )its great publicity you know long may it last !!!!!

ps ----doubt the M.n.s.c.i would facilitate an application from a blood bath lover do you???

boudica

Amen To That Skellig. DO NOT CALL ME HE, I 'M A GIRL, CAN U NOT SEE THAT YOU SILLY MAN/BOY. THE GOURGOUS BOUDICA